victimless crime

[Norman Bates]

Do you think that there are (morally) victimless crimes?
Should they be punished?

 

[Zirakzigil]

Yes, there are victimless actions that moral police would call crimes.

No, they should not be punished.

 

[danielson]

drug use comes to mind

however given the state mayb have to foot the medical bill if they misuse the drugs, i think thats a good reason for them being illegal.

i also find it funny how something like tobacco falls right into this category and is legal, even though its costs others to pay for smokers medical bills (tax doesnt even begon to recoup this)







prostitution is another thing if regulated could become victimless, but thats a grey area as is the prostitue a 'victim' even if she goes into it willingly....i dont think she is but others do




insurance fraud is possibly another victimless crime, if you dont consider the company frauded against as an individual.

 

[Warik]

Do you think that there are (morally) victimless crimes?
Should they be punished?

I think there are MANY victimless crimes. The name itself is oxymoronic, because I believe that there can be no crime unless there is a victim.

As such, I feel that all of these victimless "crimes" should go unpunished.

-Warik

 

[junglist]

i think if i decide to put a ball of yay or crystal up my nose, eat a pill, smoke some herb, or shoot some junk, as long as im doing it in the same fashion as tobacco smokers and alcohol drinkers, then its a victimless crime. I shouldnt be put into the system for rolling at home any more than I should for drinking 4-5 beers...

 

[Warik]

however given the state mayb have to foot the medical bill if they misuse the drugs, i think thats a good reason for them being illegal.

Then shouldn't drug MISUSE be illegal instead of plain drug use? That is, if you have medical problems due to irresponsible drug use, you could be held accountable or spend time in prison.

prostitution is another thing if regulated could become victimless, but thats a grey area as is the prostitue a 'victim' even if she goes into it willingly....i dont think she is but others do

She would be a victim if she were abused by the "client," in which case HE would be the criminal and she'd be the victim. If it's a simple of exchange of sex for money, then I don't see any victims, and thus, no crime.

insurance fraud is possibly another victimless crime, if you dont consider the company frauded against as an individual.

Not at all... the insurance company is an entity. Imagine if everyone committed insurance fraud... premiums would skyrocket to compensate and everyone would be fucked.

-Warik

 

[Sebass67]

Certain crimes that seem victimless are...

Ie...smoking.,etc...unless everyone does it puts a huge strain on the medical system at least in Canada so everyone becomes a victime because less money is put toward something else.

 

[Norman Bates]

Smoking in a special area for smokers would be without victims.

 

[danielson]

Then shouldn't drug MISUSE be illegal instead of plain drug use? That is, if you have medical problems due to irresponsible drug use, you could be held accountable or spend time in prison.

yes but pateints need cost effective treatment or their condition will worsen and cost more, and may become addicted to a substance unwittingly. but someone who gets addicted to heroin as a result of opiate addiction while on painkillers probably gets treated the same as a standard junkie 10 years down the line i guess

She would be a victim if she were abused by the "client," in which case HE would be the criminal and she'd be the victim. If it's a simple of exchange of sex for money, then I don't see any victims, and thus, no crime.

agreed....but others say the fact she is prostituing herself will affect her.....given the amount of women that marry guys for money i dont see why they are kicking up a fuss over this but seriously she may be traumatised iver this, which is why i think it should be legalised becaue at least thjis way she can get help

Not at all... the insurance company is an entity. Imagine if everyone committed insurance fraud... premiums would skyrocket to compensate and everyone would be fucked.

-Warik

yeah i know....i was clutching at straws for more victimless crimes

 

[str8manwithadickinhisass]

I don't understand the legal issues associated with steroids. Let me get this straight: If I take these horrible drugs that may cause acne and high blood pressure I can be locked up in a cage with murderers and rapists where I'm likely to be stabbed or beaten to death. If I'm lucky to make it out of prison alive then I have certainly lost my job and probably won't be able to find another one because of my record. Then I've gone from being a normal working class person that wanted to bulk up to being a welfare case. Where's the logic in this?

 

[Sebass67]

Norman Bates...Victimless...

I don't think so..

In Canada taxes pay for medical it ain't private here so when people smoke and get diseases and shit that comes out of my pocket.

 

[Warik]

Norman Bates...Victimless...

I don't think so..

In Canada taxes pay for medical it ain't private here so when people smoke and get diseases and shit that comes out of my pocket.

Then again, socialized healthcare should be a crime. If all was fair in the world (i.e., you didn't have to pay for other people's healthcare), then this issue wouldn't even come up.

-Warik

 

[danielson]

Then again, socialized healthcare should be a crime. If all was fair in the world (i.e., you didn't have to pay for other people's healthcare), then this issue wouldn't even come up.

-Warik

dont you think that people should have access to healthcare they cannot afford? what happens when you need medical treatment you cant afford? should we let the patient die?

 

[Warik]

dont you think that people should have access to healthcare they cannot afford? what happens when you need medical treatment you cant afford? should we let the patient die?

If all was fair in the world, the issue of paying for healthcare wouldn't be an issue.

-Warik

 

[danielson]

If all was fair in the world, the issue of paying for healthcare wouldn't be an issue.

-Warik

is this not a greater reason to try and subsidise or fully subsidise healthcare? to try and make life a bit more fair?

 

[Lao Tzu]

I don't understand the legal issues associated with steroids. Let me get this straight: If I take these horrible drugs that may cause acne and high blood pressure I can be locked up in a cage with murderers and rapists where I'm likely to be stabbed or beaten to death. If I'm lucky to make it out of prison alive then I have certainly lost my job and probably won't be able to find another one because of my record. Then I've gone from being a normal working class person that wanted to bulk up to being a welfare case. Where's the logic in this?

i remember a story about 2 years ago on this board. A guy got caught, his wife divorced him & took the kids, he lost his job, and he had to spend a few days/weeks in jail.

All that matters is getting caught. Some laws are fair, but some are spin offs of beaucratic asswipes looking for a re-election or public enemy to unify the public. It is only wrong to get caught.

 

[Norman Bates]

When the medical costs are the only problem, why not let people pay for those by themselves if they were responsible for them?

 

[Warik]

is this not a greater reason to try and subsidise or fully subsidise healthcare? to try and make life a bit more fair?

To allow someone to die of a curable illness/injury because he cannot afford to pay for it is just as unfair as to forcefully seize the hard-earned assets of an individual.

Neither is an acceptable alternative.

-Warik

 

[§äñît¥ Pôí§ðñ]

once a prostitute, always a prostitute
that is the crime, haw..
you literally cant pay some of those bitches to stop, they don't know how, even if u try to help

 

[danielson]

To allow someone to die of a curable illness/injury because he cannot afford to pay for it is just as unfair as to forcefully seize the hard-earned assets of an individual.

Neither is an acceptable alternative.

-Warik

if this was to happen then the american military would have any funding and lots of people with rocks would invade and throw em at you and you wouldnt have an army to stop them

or roads to drive

or government administration of foodstuffs so your next meal could be your last


etc etc etc....

taxes are a fundemental part of living in a modern day society. someone has to do these things and it takes money. were it to rely on charity, i have a feeling not much would be done, so it is made compulsuary. the choice is pay the taxes
to live in the country or move out .....not much of a choice but a choice none the less

 

[Warik]

if this was to happen then the american military wouldn't have any funding and lots of people with rocks would invade and throw em at you and you wouldnt have an army to stop them

If our country were at risk of invasion because the military didn't have any weapons, then why would anyone in this country who knows how to make weapons refuse to do so?

or roads to drive

If no one in this country could drive to work or school because we had no roads, then why would anyone in this country who knew how to make roads refuse to do so?

someone has to do these things and it takes money.

Part A? True. Part B? Very false.

were it to rely on charity

Why would anyone give when they are already being taken from?

the choice is pay the taxes
to live in the country or move out .....not much of a choice but a choice none the less

There is a host of other choices. We live in quite an interesting world. We live in a world in which human beings have the power to control it and shape their lives as they wish. As such, why do they choose to shape their lives in such a way that involves misery and suffering? We need X, but in order to get X we need to pay Y, and in order to pay Y, we need money. Wow, the problem seemed pretty easy until "we neeed money" showed up, eh?

The starving family needs to eat, but they need money.
The injured man needs medical attention, but he needs money.
The unemployed man needs a car to get to work, but he needs money.

I don't know about you, but doesn't it look like the whole focus of money in our lives is the root of our problems?

Think about it: Do you know anyone who would still be working at his job if it didn't pay as well? You probably know a lot of people. That's the problem. People are working in jobs that make them miserable just because they pay well, and people AREN'T working in jobs they love just because they DON'T pay well. Imagine a world where everyone did what they loved for a living.

The farmer loves to grow food, so he does it. The doctor loves to practice medicine, so he does it. One day, the farmer's foot gets run over by a tractor, and he needs the doctor to help him. The farmer doesn't have any money, but the doctor doesn't give a shit since the farmer feeds his family and the doctor goes ahead and helps him.

Can you explain to me why a doctor walking along the street would help a man who just collapsed on the sidewalk without handing him a bill afterwards, but would refuse to treat him for free in the luxury of his own medical office?

It's taken me many years to realize what money really is. Money is just a physical representation of what should be the good will of Man towards one another. It's almost as though the doctor doesn't realize the significance of the farmer in his life until the farmer accumulates enough green pieces of paper.

My God... difference between Man and Caveman? Man isn't running around in animal skins. That's about it, frankly.

-Warik

 

[danielson]

If our country were at risk of invasion because the military didn't have any weapons, then why would anyone in this country who knows how to make weapons refuse to do so?

after they fulfil their contract where would the resources come to replenish those they had spent? where would they get the resources. they employ men, but they have to give men something to make it worth their while to work for them, else the men wont have food to feed their families.

There is a host of other choices. We live in quite an interesting world. We live in a world in which human beings have the power to control it and shape their lives as they wish. As such, why do they choose to shape their lives in such a way that involves misery and suffering? We need X, but in order to get X we need to pay Y, and in order to pay Y, we need money. Wow, the problem seemed pretty easy until "we neeed money" showed up, eh?

The starving family needs to eat, but they need money.
The injured man needs medical attention, but he needs money.
The unemployed man needs a car to get to work, but he needs money.

I don't know about you, but doesn't it look like the whole focus of money in our lives is the root of our problems?

Think about it: Do you know anyone who would still be working at his job if it didn't pay as well? You probably know a lot of people. That's the problem. People are working in jobs that make them miserable just because they pay well, and people AREN'T working in jobs they love just because they DON'T pay well. Imagine a world where everyone did what they loved for a living.

The farmer loves to grow food, so he does it. The doctor loves to practice medicine, so he does it. One day, the farmer's foot gets run over by a tractor, and he needs the doctor to help him. The farmer doesn't have any money, but the doctor doesn't give a shit since the farmer feeds his family and the doctor goes ahead and helps him.

Can you explain to me why a doctor walking along the street would help a man who just collapsed on the sidewalk without handing him a bill afterwards, but would refuse to treat him for free in the luxury of his own medical office?

It's taken me many years to realize what money really is. Money is just a physical representation of what should be the good will of Man towards one another. It's almost as though the doctor doesn't realize the significance of the farmer in his life until the farmer accumulates enough green pieces of paper.

My God... difference between Man and Caveman? Man isn't running around in animal skins. That's about it, frankly.

-Warik

warik....are YOU goving an arguement against capatalism (and maybe) for socialism?!? socialism is all about providing public services after all? money and the gain of it by the individual is emphasised less after all, much less than a capatalistic society?

in a socialist country, medical care is free, food is taken from the farmers and distributed...

 

[Warik]

warik....are YOU goving an arguement against capatalism (and maybe) for socialism?!?

socialism - any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Who said anything about government?

in a socialist country, medical care is free

Canada's social healthcare plan is not free. The taxpayers pay for it. This isn't what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is not so simple as saying "capitalism vs. socialism." What you are talking about is systems of government. What I'm talking about are the attitudes and ideals of the people living in a given country. How can a country expect progress when many of its people are struggling to reach a bare minimum? How many brilliant people has this country lost because they couldn't afford an overpriced "education?" How much less crime would we have if there were no motivation to commit crime?

Like I said. It's more detailed than just capitalism vs. socialism. I'm in no way supporting socialism over capitalism. In fact, I think that for the moment, capitalism is the only system that would function adequately in this wretched world. Of course, just because it's the best here doesn't mean it's the best overall.

My argument was strictly against people in general.

-Warik

 

[danielson]

My argument was strictly against people in general.

-Warik

i was only being semi serious.....i was kinda teasing




but seriously.....dont you think the republican ideology only furthers the divide between rich and poor?

what would be your solution to providing people with what they need without charging anyone for it. eventually someone down the line is going to be unwilling to give away anything he has aquired or produced, especially if he is self sufficient

but yes, i do find it shocking a critical patient may be turned away from a hospital because he/she has the wrong insurance. and i agree with your views on peoples selfishness being very similar to the 'selfish' gene in animals, which we are supposed to be above

 

[Warik]

but seriously.....dont you think the republican ideology only furthers the divide between rich and poor?

Yes, I do. I vote Republican because I feel that the Republican party can do better things for this country than the other parties available. If someone asked me to express my political and social beliefs in one word, though? I couldn't.

what would be your solution to providing people with what they need without charging anyone for it. eventually someone down the line is going to be unwilling to give away anything he has aquired or produced, especially if he is self sufficient

Not at all. Give an example. No one "acquires" anything. There is no vast accumulation of wealth. There is no taxation to forcibly remove money from people. What do taxes mainly pay for, anyway? Healthcare, military, and social security.

Healthcare - doctors love practicing medicine, so they do. No one being forced to do anything.

Military - in a world of intelligent, peaceful, reasonable people, there is no need for a military.

Social Security - a "retirement plan" gone Ponzi. If you don't need money in your youth, why do you need it in your retirement?

but yes, i do find it shocking a critical patient may be turned away from a hospital because he/she has the wrong insurance.

Agreed. I'm good with computers and I've NEVER refused to help someone even if I would in no way benefit financially or materialistically from it. I could easily say: "oh, no... I don't know about that particular thing" or "I really need to get going."

and i agree with your views on peoples selfishness being very similar to the 'selfish' gene in animals, which we are supposed to be above

It really doesn't make sense when you think about it. Money, an artificial, human-conceived concept, is the driving force in people's lives. What should really be the driving force? For starters, how about comfort? Why did we develop the remote control? Fluffy leather couches? Luxury cars? Herman Miller Aeron office chairs? Comfort. Imagine a world where very few people have to work because most of the work is already done for us.

Imagine computers that don't require keyboards or mice because of touchscreens and voice recognition. Cars that don't require driver interaction. You can basically speak your destination and then read the morning paper. The morning paper, of course, wouldn't really be paper, since it would be available as an ever-updating image on your vehicles computer, updated through your wireless Internet connection, of course. How about your home?

"Lights on"
"Television - channel 5"
"Iced tea, cold. Begin preparing meal #3265"

And just relax until dinner time...

Wait... don't say a word. I know... I know... "that would cost a lot of money."

-Warik

 

[Norman Bates]

People are working in jobs that make them miserable just because they pay well, and people AREN'T working in jobs they love just because they DON'T pay well. Imagine a world where everyone did what they loved for a living.

.

-Warik

Don´t you think that in such a world some jobs would be left undone?
I wouldn´t be working in Burger King if i wasn´t paid and i can´t imagine any1 really have fun with that kind of job.Maybe i´m wrong but i think a lot of jobs simply suck but still have to be done.

 

[KA-BAR]

there is nothing wrong with hacking satelite tv.