Upcoming PCT help please

[medical]

Well it's been a fun ride but all good things must come to a (temporary!) end!
My last shot of my 13 week cycle is next week.
1-13 Sust 500/week
2-13 EQ 500/week
6-13 Proviron 50mg/day
AIFM/Aromasin throughout
Weeks 4 and 9 500iu HcG daily for 7 days

I am 43 years old, 6'6" currently 272 pounds. This was my first cycle in 13 years, but I had done 4 cycles between 26-28 years old. Only PCT back then was 1 week of HcG shots totaling 10,000 iu.
My gains on this cycle have been very pleasing to me: Gained 18 pounds, dropped 5% bf, dropped 4 inches in waist size, Gained 1.8 inches in biceps, 4.2 inches in chest, and 2.4 inches in thighs. Diet has been about 70% clean at @ 60-30-10 and @ 6000 calories.
I have clomid, nolva, HcG and Aromasin (plenty of all).
I have read everything I can get my hands on and am just getting more confused at this point!
I would appreciate any and all suggestions! I plan to eventually stay on low dose but I want to do a full pct this time and get to full recovery just because I want to see how my body reacts compared to when I was 28.
Thanks in advance......K

 

[acneman]

any other advice you get will likely be variations on the theme lawnsaver has posted
some will say aromasin over aifm
some will say nolva over clomid
some will say hcg once or twice during cycle and then in pct

current pct theory points toward
1 hcg to stimulate testicles
2 anti aromatase to reduce conversion to estrogen during pct(and a must when using a test cycle)
3 anti estrogen, the foundation, nolva when not using progestin roids and clomid when using progestin

using these things during pct is your best shot at keepable gains
put them together 1000 different ways but thats the basic stuff
you will have to decide whats best for you
example running a lot of orals? use clomid if you can its less stressful on the liver. no progestins and few or no orals use nolva. get emotional sides from clomid? use nolva. you see what i mean?

youve got no progestins so hcg/aromasin/nolva or hcg/aifm/clomid or........
you get the point.
i personally would run
week 14 aromasin
week 15 hcg/aromasin
week 16 nolva/aromasin
week 17-19 nolva
but thats me

 

[Ulter]

I would use the HCG another week with your nolva. Then since you don't have clomid, (why not?), just run the aromasin as long as you need to. I would get some proviron and dbol just in case you start to crash or lose libido.

 

[medical]

I would use the HCG another week with your nolva. Then since you don't have clomid, (why not?), just run the aromasin as long as you need to. I would get some proviron and dbol just in case you start to crash or lose libido.

Ummmm...I have clomid and aromasin! (see my post!) I don't do dbol due to liver issues the first time I tried it. No orals except proviron.

 

[Ulter]

Sorry, I didn't pick that up.

10mg of dbol won't cause liver issues.
What kind of liver issues did you have?

Proviron isn't 17aa

Start the clomid after another week of HCG. 100mg/day for a week, then 50mg/day for a week

 

[acneman]

I would use the HCG another week with your nolva. Then since you don't have clomid, (why not?), just run the aromasin as long as you need to. I would get some proviron and dbol just in case you start to crash or lose libido.

ah good post. running the hcg another week? sure that will work.
however while running aromnasin throughout pct will work i feel that the presance of some estrogen is an aid to total recovery.
as far as the dbol and proviron i would rather start pct over from scratch instead of that. that route might lead to the always on cycle.
running a second pct is always an option if your not completely recovered.

everything ulter said is completely correct and will work but we have differing ideas on this and mine are not nessarily better but thier mine.

 

[acneman]

Ummmm...I have clomid and aromasin! (see my post!) I don't do dbol due to liver issues the first time I tried it. No orals except proviron.

in that case i would deffinately use clomid in place of nolva because of the liver issues.
nolva is slightly hepatoxic

 

[medical]

Sorry, I didn't pick that up.

10mg of dbol won't cause liver issues.
What kind of liver issues did you have?

Proviron isn't 17aa

When I first tried dbol in my first cycle I was 2 years into alcoholism recovery. I don't remember the exact elevations but my Dr. advised me against any orals. Even though I haven't had a drink in 15 years I would rather stay away from dbol, I am not overly concerned with libido issues. Now granted I may become so, but that has never been an issue post cycle, and I can handle a slowdown for a few weeks at my age.

 

[Ulter]

The dbol/proviron are JIC, not part of the PCT

Aromasin only lowers E levels in men by an average of 60%. There will be plenty of E left over. Your HPTA measures E to determine if you need the testes to make more test. It doesn't measure test. So if you keep the levels down the HPTA will signal for more test to made by the testes.

 

[acneman]

Sorry, I didn't pick that up.

10mg of dbol won't cause liver issues.
What kind of liver issues did you have?

Proviron isn't 17aa

Start the clomid after another week of HCG. 100mg/day for a week, then 50mg/day for a week

if he has unrelated liver issues even 10mg dbol is not a good idea although he has not said that edit oops he just did
some recomend 50mg colmid with out frontload of 100mg
however if you are not prone to or dont experience clomid sides it cant hurt and might help a lot

 

[medical]

The dbol/proviron are JIC, not part of the PCT

Aromasin only lowers E levels in men by an average of 60%. There will be plenty of E left over. Your HPTA measures E to determine if you need the testes to make more test. It doesn't measure test. So if you keep the levels down the HPTA will signal for more test to made by the testes.

Thanks! Also remember I have access to weekly (daily if I want) blood work.

 

[acneman]

The dbol/proviron are JIC, not part of the PCT

Aromasin only lowers E levels in men by an average of 60%. There will be plenty of E left over. Your HPTA measures E to determine if you need the testes to make more test. It doesn't measure test. So if you keep the levels down the HPTA will signal for more test to made by the testes.

i dont know what JIC is
if your estrogen is reduced 60% and there fore your testees are producing more than normal tes once your off everything wont there be a rebound effect where you have more tes than normal which then aromatises and then you quit producing because youve now got more estrogen? and then your tes levels kinda wobble for a while before leveling?
thats why i was recomending stoping aromisin no later than one week after hcg since hcg will skew your HPTA anyway.

 

[acneman]

Thanks! Also remember I have access to weekly (daily if I want) blood work.

it would be a great post to have weekly blood tests posted with exact pct plan and amounts and show the changes etc
i would vote for that for thread of the week

 

[medical]

it would be a great post to have weekly blood tests posted with exact pct plan and amounts and show the changes etc
i would vote for that for thread of the week

I'll try to overcome my inherent documentation laziness and make that happen! Of course I'll need k for doing blood draws on myself so often and paying for the testing (I have access to a lab but my company has to pay for it in our monthly bill)

 

[medical]

i dont know what JIC is
if your estrogen is reduced 60% and there fore your testees are producing more than normal tes once your off everything wont there be a rebound effect where you have more tes than normal which then aromatises and then you quit producing because youve now got more estrogen? and then your tes levels kinda wobble for a while before leveling?
thats why i was recomending stoping aromisin no later than one week after hcg since hcg will skew your HPTA anyway.

OK i'm getting more cofused than helped again!

 

[acneman]

OK i'm getting more cofused than helped again!

no problem it goes like this
as your testicles produce tes some of it is aromatized into estrogen
your body reacts to the level of estrogen to signal the production of tes
low estrogen? hey make more tes little guys we havent got much aromatized estrogen.
high estrogen? slow down guys. since we cant stop the aromatase action naturally we dont want to get breasts.
thats kinda a juvenile way to explain it but i think you will get the picture
your body dosent measure tes it measures the resulting estrogen converted from tes and controls the tes output based on that. thats why i was sayin an aromatase inhibitor throuout pct might not be the best as it will reduce estrogen and keep the testicles in over drive which aint bad but once you stop the aromisin the excess natural tes will aromatise and then a signal to stop tes production will occur
does that clear that up?

 

[Dellyo]

no problem it goes like this
as your testicles produce tes some of it is aromatized into estrogen
your body reacts to the level of estrogen to signal the production of tes
low estrogen? hey make more tes little guys we havent got much aromatized estrogen.
high estrogen? slow down guys. since we cant stop the aromatase action naturally we dont want to get breasts.
thats kinda a juvenile way to explain it but i think you will get the picture
your body dosent measure tes it measures the resulting estrogen converted from tes and controls the tes output based on that. thats why i was sayin an aromatase inhibitor throuout pct might not be the best as it will reduce estrogen and keep the testicles in over drive which aint bad but once you stop the aromisin the excess natural tes will aromatise and then a signal to stop tes production will occur
does that clear that up?

Yep I'm cofused...bump for more info..

 

[medical]

no problem it goes like this
as your testicles produce tes some of it is aromatized into estrogen
your body reacts to the level of estrogen to signal the production of tes
low estrogen? hey make more tes little guys we havent got much aromatized estrogen.
high estrogen? slow down guys. since we cant stop the aromatase action naturally we dont want to get breasts.
thats kinda a juvenile way to explain it but i think you will get the picture
your body dosent measure tes it measures the resulting estrogen converted from tes and controls the tes output based on that. thats why i was sayin an aromatase inhibitor throuout pct might not be the best as it will reduce estrogen and keep the testicles in over drive which aint bad but once you stop the aromisin the excess natural tes will aromatise and then a signal to stop tes production will occur
does that clear that up?

I understand that.....I was just making fun of your run-on sentence!
I have a pretty good understanding of chemistry and a very good understanding of A and P, just confused as to the different takes on PCT vis a vis clomid and nolva and their relation to Hcg use. I have learned over the years that the modern medical opinion is far from up to date on this type of thing. Even though I have a cool Dr. she interprets my lab values in a different way than they need to be evaluated post cycle (she is actually very good at evaluating them on cycle but loses it when I start talking about pct to her)

 

[acneman]

I understand that.....I was just making fun of your run-on sentence!
I have a pretty good understanding of chemistry and a very good understanding of A and P, just confused as to the different takes on PCT vis a vis clomid and nolva and their relation to Hcg use. I have learned over the years that the modern medical opinion is far from up to date on this type of thing. Even though I have a cool Dr. she interprets my lab values in a different way than they need to be evaluated post cycle (she is actually very good at evaluating them on cycle but loses it when I start talking about pct to her)

cool
that did have me confused since ive read a lot of your posts and thought to myself
"i would think that guy already knows this, possibly knows more about that particular subject than me?"
but hey it might help someone else

and yes very little research into this thats why i was so excited to see your lab/pct experiment
while not as good as a double blind
it would be sweet

 

[medical]

cool
that did have me confused since ive read a lot of your posts and thought to myself
"i would think that guy already knows this, possibly knows more about that particular subject than me?"
but hey it might help someone else

and yes very little research into this thats why i was so excited to see your lab/pct experiment
while not as good as a double blind
it would be sweet

Although I have some knowledge it is not that relative to PCT and I want all the opinions I can get! I appreciate your help and opinions! Also it will be even less helpful because I didn't do firm base lines on all values. I know my pre-cycle test levels, HDL/LDL, etc, but have only had a full work-up done after I started my cycle (2 weeks in and in week 6 and 10).

 

[solidspine]

Week 14 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 15 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 16 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 17-19 clomid
Simply do the 21 day Clomid recovery program

OVER


PS

Nice cycle, and nice gains

 

[medical]

Week 14 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 15 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 16 1500 iu HCG x twice a week, Nolvadex
Week 17-19 clomid
Simply do the 21 day Clomid recovery program

OVER


PS

Nice cycle, and nice gains

Thanks for the input....K

 

[Ulter]

i dont know what JIC is
if your estrogen is reduced 60% and there fore your testees are producing more than normal tes once your off everything wont there be a rebound effect where you have more tes than normal which then aromatises and then you quit producing because youve now got more estrogen? and then your tes levels kinda wobble for a while before leveling?
thats why i was recomending stoping aromisin no later than one week after hcg since hcg will skew your HPTA anyway.

No actually the correction takes place with a couple day. You won't even notice it.

 

[acneman]

No actually the correction takes place with a couple day. You won't even notice it.

this will be the last time i respont to one of your posts since apparently if i question anything you say you bomb me and so does that friend of yours mikefear. thanks for explaining JIC in your bomb message.

i was really excited about this thread since there were diverse ideas about pct being discussed which is something i had wanted to do for a while.
i dont remember doing anything rude. if you post up what i did that made you so mad ill be happy to read it. but i wont answer since i would probably not agree with what you thought i did wrong and would result in you and someone who had nothing to do with this thread bombing me.