Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I have read many articles from magazines and so called doctors experiments and i just dont know whos right. I have read about 3 articles on each... one saying that studies have prove that if you lift slow (6 seconds up & down) you will get stonger in less of times. On the other hand the other articles says that regular lifts (2 seconds up & down) does the same thing as a slow lift if not better in the fact thats theres less injuries and your able to do more reps which makes you stronger. Well i want to finally know the truth which is .....................
Truth about speed lifting
- Thread starter mol3000
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C
curgeo
Guest
For strength sake, you should always apply as much force to the weight as you can......without sacrificing safety of the joint......You have to decelerate the weight at the end to avoid injury.
Your body doesn't know that it's benching 135, it just feels the force working against it. If I am using 135 and I apply 250lbs of force to the bar, the body only knows the force acting on it.
I am a powerlifter who has 2 days a week specifically for speed. I use a weight that is extra light and accelerate it as fast as I can. It works on form and also explosive strength.
When applying maximum force to the weight, you are working your FAST TWITCH muscle fibers. Fast twitch are very strong fibers that are used in explosive strength. Take the example of the marathon runner and the sprinter: Marathon runners are not very strong looking, but can run a long time....the sprinter who uses explosive strength has a very muscular physique. He/she uses mostly fast twitch muscles for the sprint.
When somebody tells you that you should do a rep slow, it is to increase the time the muscle is under tension. This is great on the negative (eccentric) part of the lift, but make sure to explode on the positive (concentric) part. Slower eccentric lowering is great for muscle gain and also for strength, but slow concentric contrations do not stimulate that much strength gain.....Explosive reps do.
When bodybuilding, my rule of thumb was always:
Lower the weight slowly and then explode up. This is for strength gain as well as muscle mass. Christian Thibaudeau uses a similiar training scheme for his athletes that want to have both. As a powerlifter, I don't care so much about time under tension, so it doesn't apply to my training too often......but a bodybuilder wanting both size and strength, it is a fairly safe guidline.
Your body doesn't know that it's benching 135, it just feels the force working against it. If I am using 135 and I apply 250lbs of force to the bar, the body only knows the force acting on it.
I am a powerlifter who has 2 days a week specifically for speed. I use a weight that is extra light and accelerate it as fast as I can. It works on form and also explosive strength.
When applying maximum force to the weight, you are working your FAST TWITCH muscle fibers. Fast twitch are very strong fibers that are used in explosive strength. Take the example of the marathon runner and the sprinter: Marathon runners are not very strong looking, but can run a long time....the sprinter who uses explosive strength has a very muscular physique. He/she uses mostly fast twitch muscles for the sprint.
When somebody tells you that you should do a rep slow, it is to increase the time the muscle is under tension. This is great on the negative (eccentric) part of the lift, but make sure to explode on the positive (concentric) part. Slower eccentric lowering is great for muscle gain and also for strength, but slow concentric contrations do not stimulate that much strength gain.....Explosive reps do.
When bodybuilding, my rule of thumb was always:
Lower the weight slowly and then explode up. This is for strength gain as well as muscle mass. Christian Thibaudeau uses a similiar training scheme for his athletes that want to have both. As a powerlifter, I don't care so much about time under tension, so it doesn't apply to my training too often......but a bodybuilder wanting both size and strength, it is a fairly safe guidline.
Breaking it down simply:
-The purpose of a muscle is to generate force
-The basic force equation is: Force = Mass X Acceleration
-You increase the capacity of a muscle by training it to produce more force (obviously volume and intensity are regulated as you can't depend only on supercompensation for sustained progress in an exerienced lifter).
-When training a muscle to produce more force an integral part of that training involves the second half of the equation, acceleration, making superslow training antithetical to what it is you are trying to accomplish.
-Obviously, I'm not a big proponent of superslow and I'll leave it at that.
A good way to get the feel is training with bands on a bar. Using the benchpress as an example, to maintain constant velocity on the bar the muscles must gradually create more and more force to compensate against the added resistance from the band stretching (not a linear relationship with distance since it works as a rubber band - thinking the shape is similar to logarithmic with the final inch adding many magnitudes the added band resistance relative to the first inch). Although the velocity of the bar is constant, what you are in fact doing is applying force that would actually accelerate an unbanded bar. You can duplicate this not by jerking the weight from the bottom position but by applying gradual force to the bar to accelerate it throughout the concentric phase. This works really well for getting stronger and adding muscle over a training cycle.
Also consider the case of olympic weightlifters or anyone making much progress in dynamic pulling (done fast). Many athletes have added a ton a speed, power, strength, and size by performing the hang clean - time under tension here is minimal as speed is very fast in the second pull of the clean (which is simulated by the hang clean skipping the first pull from the floor) yet the response is excellent accross the board for nearly all athletes. If there was a lot of merrit to a well conditioned athlete training slowly, the gains from the exercise would not be so disproportionately good.
-The purpose of a muscle is to generate force
-The basic force equation is: Force = Mass X Acceleration
-You increase the capacity of a muscle by training it to produce more force (obviously volume and intensity are regulated as you can't depend only on supercompensation for sustained progress in an exerienced lifter).
-When training a muscle to produce more force an integral part of that training involves the second half of the equation, acceleration, making superslow training antithetical to what it is you are trying to accomplish.
-Obviously, I'm not a big proponent of superslow and I'll leave it at that.
A good way to get the feel is training with bands on a bar. Using the benchpress as an example, to maintain constant velocity on the bar the muscles must gradually create more and more force to compensate against the added resistance from the band stretching (not a linear relationship with distance since it works as a rubber band - thinking the shape is similar to logarithmic with the final inch adding many magnitudes the added band resistance relative to the first inch). Although the velocity of the bar is constant, what you are in fact doing is applying force that would actually accelerate an unbanded bar. You can duplicate this not by jerking the weight from the bottom position but by applying gradual force to the bar to accelerate it throughout the concentric phase. This works really well for getting stronger and adding muscle over a training cycle.
Also consider the case of olympic weightlifters or anyone making much progress in dynamic pulling (done fast). Many athletes have added a ton a speed, power, strength, and size by performing the hang clean - time under tension here is minimal as speed is very fast in the second pull of the clean (which is simulated by the hang clean skipping the first pull from the floor) yet the response is excellent accross the board for nearly all athletes. If there was a lot of merrit to a well conditioned athlete training slowly, the gains from the exercise would not be so disproportionately good.
C
curgeo
Guest
Nicely put madcow. Bands and other forms of Accommodating Resistance are a great way to train. Overloading the strength curve and overcoming high eccentric forces are just a couple of the benefits. Speed is king!
thanks.... i was wondering about that because i heard a lot of people saying that its also better to go slow in the negative but they never said why. Now i do understand for the most part but why is it when some people explain why you should go slow on the negative and positive it also sound correct????? Basically whats was explain to me (lets use benching for example) When you push the bar up it really doesnt build as much muscle or strength as if u go up slow with it because the longer you take to push it up the next time your muscle trys to push up that weight its already built enough muscle to push up way more than it did last time. I dont know if i said that right but yea i am just still a little confused 
bignate73
New member
think of it like this:
negative: controlled to slow. negatives produce more damage to the muscle, thus rebuilding. most hypertrophy (muscle growth) programs accentuate the negative.
positive: don't hold it back, muscles don't fire off slow, they just fire off less fibers. if you want to lift heavy weights, you can't do it by holding back.
negative: controlled to slow. negatives produce more damage to the muscle, thus rebuilding. most hypertrophy (muscle growth) programs accentuate the negative.
positive: don't hold it back, muscles don't fire off slow, they just fire off less fibers. if you want to lift heavy weights, you can't do it by holding back.
force = mass x acceleration
you want speed on your side
you want speed on your side
Not to sound like a dick but if you read some of the other posts before providing your own perscription and closing the case on it, you might learn something.yomama said:
Same case here just read 2 posts above your own: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357530&page=2
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curgeo
Guest
yomama....What is your basis for a slower concentric rep? Bodybuilders and powerlifters should train with an explosive concentric to activate and recruit more muscle fibers. I don't understand your logic on this.
bignate73
New member
sometimes the word "explosive" is misconstrued by the general training population. under max loads exposive movements don't move fast per se. not to generalize, but the bodybuilding population in general focuses more on squeezing the muscle, instead of firing it off. its terminology basically. we fire off the muscle, they squeeze it as hard as they can. sometimes my presses don't move so fast but im moving as fast as i can, to a bb'er its squeezing.
thats my take on it.
thats my take on it.
wnt2bBeast
New member
curgeo said:
its the age old debate..Im a powerlifter and youre a bobybuilder..theres nothing i can learn from you!!! itll never end..bodybuilders always think they have the "best" routine..even the pro's..other than ronnie i havent seen anyone really change their physqiue other than getting more ripped or over dieting and coming in flat..other than that what pro have you seen pack on serious muscle from one year to the next? they all kids themselves with thier 20 sets get a pump and get out of the gym..it doesnt work
if you dont train with speed youll never lift big weights
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curgeo
Guest
Wnt2.....Is that Mikesall in your avatar? I recommend his video on the squat. He trains a little differently than WS......He does speed and max effort in one workout.
Very interesting stuff.
Very interesting stuff.
wnt2bBeast
New member
curgeo said:
yep thats him with his record 1141 squat!!
ill take a look thnks for the heads up..i believe he posts his workouts on his website..
wnt2bBeast
New member
Dial_tone said:
there are always exceptions...
he trains DC style which most people on this board should use as well if BB'ing is your goal
wnt2bBeast said:
He really just switched to that in the past year, I believe. I think the reason most pros don't change much now is because they don't get their pro card til mid to late 30's so they've already gotten the best out of themselves. In the 80's and maybe early 90's guys turned pro a lot younger so you saw more change taking place.
yomama said:
Here's a semi-sarcastic answer that was fun to write. No offense meant but it's a good illustration of the importance of acceleration to any weight training athlete.
Bodybuilder's get bigger how?
Through Weight Training
Why does weight training make them bigger?
Body is adapting to a stimulus or stress
Why does the body adapt?
It believes it must to survive
What is it about weight training that is forcing adaptation of the muscles?
The body's muscles are unable to deal adequately with the amount of work required of them.
What is the work that muscles do?
Generate force.
If an experienced bodybuilder (meaning no rookie CNS adaptation) adds 100 lbs to his best 5 rep benchpress will he have larger muscles?
Yes
Why?
He needs them in order to generate enough force to move an additional 100lbs through 5 reps.
So if force is important to muscles (and it is their whole purpose of existence) how does one optimally train the muscles in order to provide the most efficient stimulus?
One trains to maximize force output of the muscles.
And what is force again?
Force = Mass X Acceleration
So I need to increase the mass I'm lifting right? But how can I do that if I already know what my 5 rep max is?
You need to systematically vary volume and intensity (%of 1RM - basically mass) over a training program in order to create a deficit and force the body to adapt.
But that's only half the equation right? Do I just mindlessly leave the other half alone as a constant even though it obviously matters hugely from my skills garnered in grade school math?
No, you will most efficiently apply the stimulus (for increased force i.e. growth) of training with a given mass by moving it as quickly as possible.
How big of an impact will acceleration have?
Well, using basic algebra if you can double the amount of acceleration when training with a given mass you will output double the amount of force. See the equations below.
FORCE = MASS * ACCELERATION
First Case is base acceleration:
FORCE = 200 * X = 200X
Second Case is doubling base acceleration hence doubling force output:
FORCE = 200 * 2X = 400X
So what you are saying is that, bigger muscles are developed as the body's response to being required to generate increased force. The stimulus applied with a given mass can be multuplied by increasing the amount of acceleration. So, I will be bigger when I can either or both move more mass or more quickly accelerate a given amount of mass?
Yes - I think you have it.
Wow, I'm going to go get on the cable crossover machine and burn out as fast as I can. Good idea?
wnt2bBeast
New member
Madcow2 said:Wow, I'm going to go get on the cable crossover machine and burn out as fast as I can. Good idea?
good post bro..
btw Andy fiedler loves the cable crossover..im hitting it 3 time a week LOL
You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Madcow2 again.
