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Treating symptoms, not the numbers

hannes joubert

New member
Hi All...

Right, I understand that there are fairly wide ranges concerning dosages/week concerning pinning with Test E to combat low test.

Ranges from 100mg to 400mg. I am a fairly large (albeit fat) 260lbs. BF% would change once I have my Test levels sorted, now I want to know should I rather pin closer to 400mg/week, or 100mg/week? As I said, I want to treat the symptoms and not the numbers....Also, what guage needle should I use for the oil?

Also, I understand the need for HCG, but I am at a loss for how to use it?? I can obtain 5000IU - 2ml. So how much do I use? Where do I pin it and with what? (I understand twice a week on days 5&6 if pinning gear 1ce a week, but when do I pin the HCG if I am pinning the gear every 3.5days?)

Any senior guys?

Thanks

H
 
Many trt clinics recommend dosing for test at 2x a week. Take HCG at 250IU 2 days before and then the day before just one of your 2 weekly test injections.

How much test you need depends on your symptoms and how you respond to it. You shouldnt fly blind if you looking to be on trt from now till the end of time, the goal is to find a test level that doesnt throw your BP or blood test numbers out of whack.
 
Many trt clinics recommend dosing for test at 2x a week. Take HCG at 250IU 2 days before and then the day before just one of your 2 weekly test injections.

How much test you need depends on your symptoms and how you respond to it. You shouldnt fly blind if you looking to be on trt from now till the end of time, the goal is to find a test level that doesnt throw your BP or blood test numbers out of whack.

Hi Zyglmail, many thanks for the reply.

I would like to confirm that I understand you correctly concerning the hCG... One injection of 250Iu before starting the TRT, and from then on, one injection a week, the day before a Test injection, continuously? Where do I inject the hCG? And, how much is 250Iu, 0.1ml?

I managed to source Test E @ 300mg/ml, will see about the dosages @2xweek, if it is to difficult to split, perhaps I'll do 0.5ml week (giving 150mg/week)

May I post the progress once starting on the TRT?

Thanks again for all the help & advice...

Cheers

H
 
hannes, actually it states 2 HCG shots prior to your test shot. So for example if you were to shoot your Test on Monday, you would do 250iu Saturday and 250iu Sunday (prior to the test shot). You can go to youtube and search HCG, plenty of videos there for your reference (easier seen than explained sometimes :)

If you decided on 300mgs per week of test, you can do 2 shots per week of 1.5ml ea shot. Example shoot on Monday and Thursday.

If I were you, I would keep a log as this can help you as a refence on how you feel, gains, etc.
 
hannes, actually it states 2 HCG shots prior to your test shot. So for example if you were to shoot your Test on Monday, you would do 250iu Saturday and 250iu Sunday (prior to the test shot). You can go to youtube and search HCG, plenty of videos there for your reference (easier seen than explained sometimes :)

If you decided on 300mgs per week of test, you can do 2 shots per week of 1.5ml ea shot. Example shoot on Monday and Thursday.

If I were you, I would keep a log as this can help you as a refence on how you feel, gains, etc.

Hi Caribeman, thanks for the reply...

Okay, so shots on Sat & Sun (hCG), Test on Monday and Thurs? If my Test is 300mg/ml, then .5ml Monday & .5ml Thurs will give me 300mg/week correct?

Will definately keep a journal/log, and update on this site, if that is okay with the mods?

Thanks again for patience and advice..

Cheers

H
 
Hi Caribeman, thanks for the reply...

Okay, so shots on Sat & Sun (hCG), Test on Monday and Thurs? If my Test is 300mg/ml, then .5ml Monday & .5ml Thurs will give me 300mg/week correct?

Will definately keep a journal/log, and update on this site, if that is okay with the mods?

Thanks again for patience and advice..

Cheers

H

sounds good , just keep an AI on hand in case of estro buildup , and sure we'll be happy if u post a journal/log here on EF that's the purpose of this site to share and learn from each other, the mods are always available to help u anytime , only great guys over here on EF i think Zyglamail will assist u on that for sure.
good luck bro
 
Hi Caribeman, thanks for the reply...

Okay, so shots on Sat & Sun (hCG), Test on Monday and Thurs? If my Test is 300mg/ml, then .5ml Monday & .5ml Thurs will give me 300mg/week correct?

Will definately keep a journal/log, and update on this site, if that is okay with the mods?

Thanks again for patience and advice..

Cheers

H

correct, if your test is 300mg/ml and you want to do 300mg/week, the pick two days of the week to shoot on and try and stick to em, mon & thurs, wed & sat etc. Do 1/2 a ML or CC each time to get 150mg of test.
 
sounds good , just keep an AI on hand in case of estro buildup , and sure we'll be happy if u post a journal/log here on EF that's the purpose of this site to share and learn from each other, the mods are always available to help u anytime , only great guys over here on EF i think Zyglamail will assist u on that for sure.
good luck bro


Hi there, thanks everyone for the advice and help to keep me on track.

Is an AI the same as an anti estrogen? Can I use Letrozole as per the latest article by George Spellwin? Will this accomplish the same ends?

Thanks again...

H
 
Yes, letrozole is in the same class of anti-E as arimidex. Some find it works better for them than anastrozole. How much to take really will kind of depend on your existing E levels, if they are high, which generally they are on people who carry more bodyfat, then an anti-e say 3x a week is probably a good idea.
 
Many trt clinics recommend dosing for test at 2x a week. Take HCG at 250IU 2 days before and then the day before just one of your 2 weekly test injections.

How much test you need depends on your symptoms and how you respond to it. You shouldnt fly blind if you looking to be on trt from now till the end of time, the goal is to find a test level that doesnt throw your BP or blood test numbers out of whack.

Hey Zyg can u plz explain for us the science behind shooting HCG 2 days in a row before the test shot? cuz i usually shoot it the same days of my test shots on monday and thursday to avoid pinning more than 2 days per week (Mon 100mg test + 250iu hcg , thursday 100mg test + 250iu HCG) is it ok like that or better the way u said.
 
Hi there, thanks everyone for the advice and help to keep me on track.

Is an AI the same as an anti estrogen? Can I use Letrozole as per the latest article by George Spellwin? Will this accomplish the same ends?

Thanks again...

H

yes AI means Aromatase Inhibitor (or anti-estrogen) like Arimidex (Anastrozol) , Femara (Letrozol) and Aromasin (Exemestan) , beware of Letrozol it's the strongest among them all and can dries u up and weakens ur joints and ur bones , so start with the lowest recommended doses (1.25mg e3d half a tab) and see what happens and if u need more after 2 weeks at least.
 
Is this HCG protocol something that can be done indefinetly or does it need to be cycled?

I see a lot of claims here on the forum that HCG will lose its effectiveness over time and every time I see that claim I ask for the study that led to that conclusion.

The only study that has been shown to back up that theory was one where individuals where taking large doses of HCG (cant remember exact amount but it was like 2000IU) for an extended period of time (like 2 years). At that point they raised the dose of HCG from 2000iu to like 2500IU and saw no increase in natural test production over using 2000IU (or what ever the number was).

That caused people to come to the conclusion that you get desensitized to it but is that really whats happening?

For starters the body has many feedback loops for most hormones. You can artificially raise natural test production by using anti-e's also, but with those also there comes a point where your body is simply only going to produce so much test regardless of how little E it thinks there is in the system or how much LH is in the system in the case of HCG.

This lack of not getting your testes to produce more test by upping an already high dose of hcg to a higher one does not mean they have become desensitized.

That being said at low dose 2x 250IU a week I have not see any studies indicating there is any desensitization. On the contrary, HCG has a very short half life of like 24 hours or less if I remember correctly. So natural LH production will decrease or cease in the presence of external test and in turn testicles will atrophy. sporadic low dose HCG has proven to reduce the testicular atrophy associated with low dose test use.
 
Hey Zyg can u plz explain for us the science behind shooting HCG 2 days in a row before the test shot? cuz i usually shoot it the same days of my test shots on monday and thursday to avoid pinning more than 2 days per week (Mon 100mg test + 250iu hcg , thursday 100mg test + 250iu HCG) is it ok like that or better the way u said.

The protocol is basically one devised by Dr Crisler from empirical evidence gained in his practice.....

In my paper My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men, published in A4Ms 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now lets delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly cycle compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later) approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But theres another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They neednt concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more traditional TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.
 
The protocol is basically one devised by Dr Crisler from empirical evidence gained in his practice.....

Thx Zyg very interesting read, do u think for ppl dividing their test shot to twice a week could inject HCG at 250iu on the day before each test shot?
for ex: sun 250iu hcg, mon 100mg test e, wed 250iu hcg, thu 100mg test e
 
Thx Zyg very interesting read, do u think for ppl dividing their test shot to twice a week could inject HCG at 250iu on the day before each test shot?
for ex: sun 250iu hcg, mon 100mg test e, wed 250iu hcg, thu 100mg test e

It certainly wouldnt hurt to try. If your on TRT, run it one way for a month, then the other for a month. I think the natty test boot provided by HCG is likely less noticeable for 2x weekly injections than those on 1.
 
It certainly wouldnt hurt to try. If your on TRT, run it one way for a month, then the other for a month. I think the natty test boot provided by HCG is likely less noticeable for 2x weekly injections than those on 1.

Probably a correct assumption as the reason for the second injection per week is to stabilise test levels, which is what the 2 hCG shots before the one weekly test shot was doing by increasing LH and therefore the bodies endogenous supplies??

Personally I am going to start the TRT with 1 of each (hCG & Test E) 2xweek...Will let you know :biggrin:
 
i think ur right guys since shooting twice a week is to stabilize levels in the first place but i will try shooting hcg one day b4 each shot, and i'll report back if i feel any difference , maybe this way it'll be even more stable specially for the other hormones productions.
 
Get this, I told a friend of mine about low T, he decided to get it checked out by his GP, T results came back low, so his GP gave him a shot of T @ 1000mg, and his next one is in..................6 months time. Not sure what ester she gave him, but regardless, I feel for the guy. He will probably feel okay for a week and then gradually feel worse. Told you South Africa is way behind the curve regarding TRT

BTW, my order shipped today, feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning :)
 
Get this, I told a friend of mine about low T, he decided to get it checked out by his GP, T results came back low, so his GP gave him a shot of T @ 1000mg, and his next one is in..................6 months time. Not sure what ester she gave him, but regardless, I feel for the guy. He will probably feel okay for a week and then gradually feel worse. Told you South Africa is way behind the curve regarding TRT

BTW, my order shipped today, feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning :)

Oh lord, feel sorry for your friend.:( BTW, is Test illegal to buy where you are at? Like in the States?
 
Get this, I told a friend of mine about low T, he decided to get it checked out by his GP, T results came back low, so his GP gave him a shot of T @ 1000mg, and his next one is in..................6 months time. Not sure what ester she gave him, but regardless, I feel for the guy. He will probably feel okay for a week and then gradually feel worse. Told you South Africa is way behind the curve regarding TRT

BTW, my order shipped today, feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning :)

Its probably Testosterone undecanoate which has a super long half life which requires you to get like only 4-5 injections a year but 6 months is still too far apart.
 
does somebody know what the actual half life of test undecanoate , cuz everywhere on the net i hear a different story, some says it's 16 days some 21 others says over a month or even 6 weeks.... any idea???
 
do some searching for nebido. While I dont know what the exact half life is its designed for injections every 10-14 weeks.

Nebido® Product Information - Nebido - Testosterone Undecanoate

Too bad our fucking FDA is holding up the show for issues that are not specific to it.

yeah that's exactly the same info u find everywhere on the net but no clear time release , peak , half life..... when doctors say it's for 10-14 weeks intervals doesn't mean it's the right interval for level stability , doctors usually treat the numbers , they inject u with a high initial dose (peak of the charts at the beginning) so that will last long in ur system and stay above base line until the mentioned week (10-14) it's like saying u'll still be above 300ng/dl until week 10 which is not the case for treating the symptoms of andropause where u need to keep a high level stable at all times (around the higher end or maybe a bit more), we all remember what the protocol for cypionate and enanthate where they use to inject patients every 2-3 weeks , and the poor patients lived in a roller coaster every time between long injections intervals.
 
Oh lord, feel sorry for your friend.:( BTW, is Test illegal to buy where you are at? Like in the States?


Jip, pretty much, it is a controlled substance, so only available with a script. You know the establishment likes to keep the monopoly. However...if you are resourceful enough you can find it.

One less day until my order arrives :)

Cheers, H
 
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I rcvd my package from the dispenciary, pins, syringes, gear (must say the gear looks very professional). I also rcvd my hCG, and this is where my "problem" arises. The hCG is a powdered block in a vial, and comes with an ampule of sterile solution. What do I do with this? Do I mix all the water in the vial and take what I need when I need it, the kit is 5000iu with 2ml of water, do I mix all the water? What will the concentration then be? If I mix with 1ml, how much do I pin with if shooting 250 iu? Do I store in the fridge? How long may I store the solution? Not wanting to be wasteful, I think I might up my dose of the hCG in order to use most of it within 30 days...

Woohoo, the road to recovery begins when I have your replies :chomp:

Will keep you updated as to progress.

Cheers, H
 
Hannes:
HCG will be mixed with bac water, dunno if you got that as well. The HCG should be a powder form in a vial. Depending on the mix you want for your injects, you add the bac water. Here is a link from another site which should help you figure things out http://www..com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/585389-mixing-hcg-2.html

Once you've mixed your HCG keep it in the fridge and put it back after every inject. Let us know if you have further questions.
 
Hannes:
HCG will be mixed with bac water, dunno if you got that as well. The HCG should be a powder form in a vial. Depending on the mix you want for your injects, you add the bac water. Here is a link from another site which should help you figure things out
Once you've mixed your HCG keep it in the fridge and put it back after every inject. Let us know if you have further questions.

Got it, thanks Bro...
 
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I rcvd my package from the dispenciary, pins, syringes, gear (must say the gear looks very professional). I also rcvd my hCG, and this is where my "problem" arises. The hCG is a powdered block in a vial, and comes with an ampule of sterile solution. What do I do with this? Do I mix all the water in the vial and take what I need when I need it, the kit is 5000iu with 2ml of water, do I mix all the water? What will the concentration then be? If I mix with 1ml, how much do I pin with if shooting 250 iu? Do I store in the fridge? How long may I store the solution? Not wanting to be wasteful, I think I might up my dose of the hCG in order to use most of it within 30 days...

Woohoo, the road to recovery begins when I have your replies :chomp:

Will keep you updated as to progress.

Cheers, H
the solvent that comes with hcg (sodium chloride) is for direct injection right after reconstitution and cannot be stored for long in the fridge u need to buy bacteriostatic water (bac water is sterile water but with 0.9% benzyl alcohol that preserve it from growing bacterias and it can last for a month in the fridge)
for 5000 iu i suggest u mix it with 10 ml of bacteriostatic water then with each ml u get 500 iu and with 0.5 ml 250 iu.
btw ur gona waste half of it cuz all u need in a month is 2000 iu but even if u boost it for a couple of weeks at the beginning (and never more) don't inject more than 500 iu a day 3 times per week.
 
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