TO ALL YOU WAR PROTESTORS!!!

[KAYNE]

I JUST GOT THIS VIA EMAIL. SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE GOTTEN IT. IT MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN POSTED BUT I HAVENT SEEN IT. ANYWAY, HERE IS A POEM WRITTEN BY A MARINE. I THOUGHT IT WAS PRETTY DAMN GOOD.


"Wish You Were Here"

For all the free people that still protest.
You're welcome. We protect you
and you are protected by the best.
Your voice is strong and loud,
but who will fight for you?
No one standing in your crowd.
We are your fathers, brothers, and sons,
wearing the boots and carrying guns.
We are the ones that leave all we own,
to make sure your future is carved in stone.
We are the ones who fight and die,
We might not be able to save the world,
Well, at least we try.
We walked the paths to where we are at
and we want no choice other than that.
so when you rally your group to complain,
take a look in the back of your brain.
In order for that flag you love to fly
wars must be fought and young men must die.
We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs,
and pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well,
be thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles and all the boys from
3rd Battalion 2nd Marines, Kuwait



KAYNE

 

[Frackal]

That's a really great poem.. The only thing that sucks is that they believe they are doing it for our freedom, (many of the) the protestors believe they are being sent their to potentially die for special interest the foremost not being the good of the country...and that, is unnacceptable.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Please read my signature.

 

[Norman Bates]

In what way was that under-equipped Iraqi army a threat to the American way of life and your freedom?

 

[macDbol]

I JUST GOT THIS VIA EMAIL. SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE GOTTEN IT. IT MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN POSTED BUT I HAVENT SEEN IT. ANYWAY, HERE IS A POEM WRITTEN BY A MARINE. I THOUGHT IT WAS PRETTY DAMN GOOD.


"Wish You Were Here"

For all the free people that still protest.
You're welcome. We protect you
and you are protected by the best.
Your voice is strong and loud,
but who will fight for you?
No one standing in your crowd.
We are your fathers, brothers, and sons,
wearing the boots and carrying guns.
We are the ones that leave all we own,
to make sure your future is carved in stone.
We are the ones who fight and die,
We might not be able to save the world,
Well, at least we try.
We walked the paths to where we are at
and we want no choice other than that.
so when you rally your group to complain,
take a look in the back of your brain.
In order for that flag you love to fly
wars must be fought and young men must die.
We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs,
and pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well,
be thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles and all the boys from
3rd Battalion 2nd Marines, Kuwait



KAYNE

thank god they won the war,,,NOW WE ARE FREE!!! (free from what? who knows,,,no weapons of mass distruction, no al-queda links, im sorry that a few of his comrades died for nothing)

 

[muscle_geek]

If you think that Iraq has no WMD, then you're a dumbass, plain and simple. We've risked lives before in Somalia so that people can eat. We do risk our own lives for the good of the world. A lot of people have a hard time understanding that. The people of Iraq now at the very least have an opportunity to live free. Ultimately it will be up to them now. I'm proud that we did this. I also feel a little safer. I havne't heard a peep from terrorists or their organizations since our tremendous show of power. Now people say we should worry about Iraq. I don't think their leader wants bunker busting Jdam's falling on his house. Peace is never really earned through diplomacy. Its earned through strength. The US has its problems of course, but there is no country as compassionate or just anywhere else in the world. I don't think anyone can argue this.

 

[Bikini Mod]

"We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear.
If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.
So please stop yelling, put down your signs,
and pray for those behind enemy lines.
When the conflict is over and all is well,
be thankful that we chose to go through hell."

(excerpt from the poem)

I am not yelling nor am I holding a sign.

How am I disrespecting that anyone is risking THEIR LIFE FOR ME? If anything I DON'T WANT THEM TO BE THERE ANYMORE THAN THEIR FAMILIES WANT THEM TO BE THERE! I often think of all the soldiers of present and past... They have MY UNDYING GRATITUDE. I am fully aware that BECAUSE OF THEM I am sitting in my home typing on the internet without fear of a tank rolling down my street to destroy my life and the lives of my children.

I want each and everyone of them to come home safe and sound.

I do not understand how the fact that I am anti-hate and anti-war is disrespectful of any of our service men and women.

Could somebody please enlighten me!

And for those of you who say that they dare me to find ONE AMERICAN SOLDIER who "buys my line"... READ MY SIGNATURE.

 

[Fast Twitch Fiber]

I sure am glad I have my freedom now! Thanks U.S.M.C.!

Now the economic sanctions against those Jihading bastards will be lifted and they will be "free" to rebuild their weapons and spread suicide bombers around the world! Hooray for freedom!

 

[macDbol]

the "illusion" that this war is to preseve our freedoms is obsurd.
"fight for the ones we hold deer" whats he mean by that? As much as bush wants you to beilve 9-11 had something to do with iraq, he still has yet to show a shred of evedence. That being said, iraq and its degraded armed forces couldnt harm kuwait, let alone our freedom here in the states

muscle geek,,you speak of compassion? what does the average american red neck give a shit about a brown skin person half way around the world? The same ppl talking about compassion on this board are the same ppl calling for butchering arabs and bombing mecca,,,dont kid yourselves

 

[muscle_geek]

I sure am glad I have my freedom now! Thanks U.S.M.C.!

Now the economic sanctions against those Jihading bastards will be lifted and they will be "free" to rebuild their weapons and spread suicide bombers around the world! Hooray for freedom!

Can't you see that we're all over the terrorists now. We're in Afghanistan. Now we're in Iraq. We are watching them and we have our hands around there throats. It shouldn't have taken 9/11 for us to realize that we have to be vigilant, rather than just "contain." But we are doing so now. I feel safer now than I did in the days, months after 9/11. Terrorists don't seem as bold as they were then. Funny how a few thousand missiles has an effect.

 

[Bikini Mod]

The US has its problems of course, but there is no country as compassionate or just anywhere else in the world. I don't think anyone can argue this.

I am not trying to begin a flame fest, but an intelligent discourse.

Please tell me how you arrrived at this conclusion.

 

[muscle_geek]

I am not trying to begin a flame fest, but an intelligent discourse.

Please tell me how you arrrived at this conclusion.

Did we go into Somalia or Haiti for that matter for our own interests. We went there because humanitarian aid wasn't getting to the people that needed it. Many soldiers died for that reason. We now have a bill in Congress for 30 billion dollars to help with the aids problem in Africa. What other countries do this.

 

[Fast Twitch Fiber]

Can't you see that we're all over the terrorists now. We're in Afghanistan. Now we're in Iraq. We are watching them and we have our hands around there throats. It shouldn't have taken 9/11 for us to realize that we have to be vigilant, rather than just "contain." But we are doing so now. I feel safer now than I did in the days, months after 9/11. Terrorists don't seem as bold as they were then. Funny how a few thousand missiles has an effect.

It looks to me like we just "liberated" tomorrows terrorists. Just remember, the people in Iraq may hate Saddam, but they hate Americans even more.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I don't know what other countries do.

But I also see the "working poor" of THIS COUNTRY. People who barely make enough money to live but who make too much to get good health care.

I see many senior citizens who have to decide between FOOD or MEDICINE.

I see families of AMERICAN CITIZENS living in cars because the industry that used to be the economic backbone of entire communities closing up shop in the US to go to much poorer nations to exploit THEM.

I see teachers, firefighters and police NOT TO MENTION military personel being PAID SHIT to perform VERY VITAL functions in our society while athletes make MILLIONS.

I see working mothers being left with little choice than to leave their children with LESS THAN QUALIFIED PEOPLE (in the best scenarios) because America has not yet realized the NECESSITY of QUALITY AND AFFORDABLE CHILDCARE.

I see generations of WELFARE LEACHES living off "the system" - that's right your and my hard-earned dollars - while I struggle to feed and clothe my children.

I am proud that our country tries to aid so many in the rest of the world that do not have the opportunities that we have in this country BUT I also see that perhaps our country could take a little better care of THEIR OWN BACK YARD.

These are just a few of the many reasons that many in NON-AMERICAN countries actually feel sorry for us.

No country is perfect. But to say that we are THE BEST simply is not true.

 

[muscle_geek]

I don't know what other countries do.

But I also see the "working poor" of THIS COUNTRY. People who barely make enough money to live but who make too much to get good health care.

I see many senior citizens who have to decide between FOOD or MEDICINE.

I see families of AMERICAN CITIZENS living in cars because the industry that used to be the economic backbone of entire communities closing up shop in the US to go to much poorer nations to exploit THEM.

I see teachers, firefighters and police NOT TO MENTION military personel being PAID SHIT to perform VERY VITAL functions in our society while athletes make MILLIONS.

I see working mothers being left with little choice than to leave their children with LESS THAN QUALIFIED PEOPLE (in the best scenarios) because America has not yet realized the NECESSITY of QUALITY AND AFFORDABLE CHILDCARE.

I see generations of WELFARE LEACHES living off "the system" - that's right your and my hard-earned dollars - while I struggle to feed and clothe my children.

I am proud that our country tries to aid so many in the rest of the world that do not have the opportunities that we have in this country BUT I also see that perhaps our country could take a little better care of THEIR OWN BACK YARD.

These are just a few of the many reasons that many in NON-AMERICAN countries actually feel sorry for us.

No country is perfect. But to say that we are THE BEST simply is not true.

I don't see how you've argued my point. I stated that we have our problems, but you have failed to show me a country that is more just or compassionate.

 

[Bikini Mod]

What I am saying is that our INTERNAL problems should be more important IMO.

How can you call the US the most compassionate country on the planet when we are so busy with "the rest of the world" while ignoring OUR OWN?

We don't do all we do for the outside world because it is "the right thing to do" while ignoring our own. That just makes no sense. That is counterproductive to the success and vitality of our country.

What I am trying to tell you is that while other countries may or may not do a great or equivalent amount of humanitarian work (and please, I do not want to argue the point of whether or not a war could ever be considered humanitarian) MANY take better care of their own.

IMO that is a more valid definition of compassion.

Should we help our neighbors? Yes. But I am not about to give the clothes off my back to my neighbor if I can not clothe MY OWN CHILDREN FIRST.

Do you see what I am trying to say now?

 

[muscle_geek]

What I am saying is that our INTERNAL problems should be more important IMO.

How can you call the US the most compassionate country on the planet when we are so busy with "the rest of the world" while ignoring OUR OWN?

We don't do all we do for the outside world because it is "the right thing to do" while ignoring our own. That just makes no sense. That is counterproductive to the success and vitality of our country.

What I am trying to tell you is that while other countries may or may not do a great or equivalent amount of humanitarian work (and please, I do not want to argue the point of whether or not a war could ever be considered humanitarian) MANY take better care of their own.

IMO that is a more valid definition of compassion.


Youre point is valid. We are compassionate. But we could be more compassionate. But the problems that you stated are problems in every other country in the world. The US will never be a utopia. We are a capitalist country where there will always be rich people and poor people. However, it is possible for a person to break the chains of poverty and become a success. That's nearly impossible in most countries. I believe fervently that we need to improve our education system. We're getting on another topic here, but I go back to my original point. There is no greater, more compassionate country in the world, but there is still work to do.

Should we help our neighbors? Yes. But I am not about to give the clothes off my back to my neighbor if I can not clothe MY OWN CHILDREN FIRST.

Do you see what I am trying to say now?

 

[Bikini Mod]

"Youre point is valid. We are compassionate. But we could be more compassionate. But the problems that you stated are problems in every other country in the world. The US will never be a utopia. We are a capitalist country where there will always be rich people and poor people. However, it is possible for a person to break the chains of poverty and become a success. That's nearly impossible in most countries."

This is where I am telling you that you are INCORRECT. It may have been true in the past and on this point you will get ZERO arguement from me.

BUT, what I am telling you is that it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for one to obtain a very comfortable living while having access to healthcare, childcare, etc while still HAVING A LIFE in other countries. THIS IS A FACT.

Just look at who the vast majority of people who immigrate to the US anymore are. Are they Italians? Spaniards? English? Canadian? Dutch? French? Swiss? German?

No, they are people who come from poverty-stricken countries where they have NO HOPE of a better life.

What I am saying is that in comparison to the US - there are MANY COUNTRIES where life is good and the citizens are satisfied. So to say that the US IS THE BEST PLACE TO LIVE is simply not true. This is an American-held belief that is INCORRECT.

By me saying this, I am NOT DEGRADING AMERICA.

All I am saying is that there are other places in the world where LIFE IS GRAND AS WELL. Americans need to pull their heads out of the sand and recognize this.

 

[bigguns7]

IMO that is a more valid definition of compassion.

Well then it appears that your disagreement with muscle_geek lies in that very definition.

Compassion to me is giving freely, even if it is at your own expense.

Compassion to you is giving freely, once you've made sure you've got everything you need.

If I'm homeless and haven't eaten for 2 days, sitting on a street corner next to another homeless man who hasn't eaten for 5 days and someone walks by and hands me a sandwich, what would be the compassionate thing to do? Give my homeless companion 2/3 of the sandwich, or eat until I'm stuffed and then give him the crumbs if there are any left over?

Answer that and we'll all be clear where you stand on compassion.

 

[the nature boy]

I didn't know there were a lot of war protestors reading EF threads.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Well then it appears that your disagreement with muscle_geek lies in that very definition.

Compassion to me is giving freely, even if it is at your own expense.

Compassion to you is giving freely, once you've made sure you've got everything you need.

If I'm homeless and haven't eaten for 2 days, sitting on a street corner next to another homeless man who hasn't eaten for 5 days and someone walks by and hands me a sandwich, what would be the compassionate thing to do? Give my homeless companion 2/3 of the sandwich, or eat until I'm stuffed and then give him the crumbs if there are any left over?

Answer that and we'll all be clear where you stand on compassion.

I humbly disagree. I am not talking about taking care of ME before a stranger. I am talking about taking care of MY OWN ie, those that I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR before extending my compassion to others.

By your definition of compassion I should allow MY CHILDREN to starve in order to feed my neighbors.

I know this might seem selfish of me, but I would do whatever necessary to care for MY CHILDREN. The way I see it, the US government is dutibound to care for it's own BEFORE it worries about "saving the rest of the world."

Of course it is not this simple - that one can only care for their own (although in this country it is often the case that one can not EVEN care for their own) and not help others. All I am saying is that perhaps the US might want to think about shifting some of the effort it puts into helping others and redirecting a bit of that aid to IT'S OWN.

And I think you forget that you are speaking to A MOTHER. My body took from itself to feed a child FIRST. This is a conscious decision that I made before I conceived so I don't understand your example.

I can and DO take care of myself. I am looking towards the best interest of MY CHILDREN. If this makes me less compassionate and selfish then that is a shoe that I wear GLADLY.

 

[cccp]

Originally posted by bikinimom in her sig
"I always respect your opinion and your beliefs too. And I know that you don't want any of us to get hurt or killed if it is not absolutely necessary. But remember, I and others like me made that choice a long time ago so that you and others may be free to lawfully voice your concerns and opinions. You guys are the ying to the yang."

Damn right. It was the choice they made temselves. So there really is no need to feel sorry for them. Afraid of getting killed? Then don't fucking go to to the military, and don't try to make other people feel sorry for you.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Actually the soldier who wrote that has not once "hidden behind the fact that he is military" as a justification for HIS PERSONAL political beliefs. He never once used the line that "we did this for you" thereby JUSTIFYING anything negative we may have to say about ANYTHING ELSE.... that he can BE A TOTAL ASS and we, as US citizens should not have THE RIGHT TO POINT THAT OUT lest we DISRESPECT HIS SACRIFICE ONE THAT HE MADE WILLINGLY.

Our viewpoints on many issues are STARKLY DIFFERENT yet we can still offer each other respect.

His sacrifice is his own and he seeks no special treatment because of it.

I recognize his sacrifice and TOTALLY APPRECIATE IT.

A US MARINE and I can totally agree to disagree.... hell must truly be freezing over.

 

[KAYNE]

YOU FUCKSTICKS MISS THE POINT. THE POEM IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IRAQ BUT ABOUT THE MILITARY THAT PROTECTS OUR FREEDOM. I SHOULD HAVE SAID THE POEM WAS WRITTEN ABOUT WW2. THEN NONE OF YOU WHINEY BABIES WOULD BE WHINING. GIVE THE FUCKING GUYS SOME CREDIT. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THE MILITARY WE HAVE, WE WOULD BE INVADED/CONQUERED RATHER QUICKLY. YOU FOOLS MUST HAVE FAILED LITERATURE CLASSES IN COLLEGE. I'D HATE TO READ YOUR ANALYZATION OF PEOMS.

AND TO WHOMEVER SAID IRAQ DIDNT HAVE ANY LINKS TO AL QUEDA, YOU ARE NOTHING SHORT OF A MORON. SADDAM HAS STATED PUBLICLY THAT HE SUPPORTED THEM MORALLY AND FINANANCIALLY. NOT TO MENTION WE HAVE CAUGHT AL QUEDA MEMBERS FIGHTING IN IRAQ. HOW MUCH MORE LINKS DO YOU NEED???

 

[KAYNE]

How am I whining?

I DIDNT NAME ANYONE IN PARTICULAR......DO YOU HAVE A GUILTY CONSCIOUS?

 

[Bikini Mod]

How am I whining?

 

[2Thick]

If you think that Iraq has no WMD, then you're a dumbass, plain and simple. We've risked lives before in Somalia so that people can eat. We do risk our own lives for the good of the world.

Exactly! Love it or leave it, baby!!

 

[2Thick]

YOU FUCKSTICKS MISS THE POINT.

Do not blame my stoopidness on me. Blame it on the American public school system.

USA USA USA uSS ..err USP FUBU...ok, where is my Ritalin?

 

[bigguns7]

I humbly disagree. I am not talking about taking care of ME before a stranger. I am talking about taking care of MY OWN ie, those that I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR before extending my compassion to others.

By your definition of compassion I should allow MY CHILDREN to starve in order to feed my neighbors.

I know this might seem selfish of me, but I would do whatever necessary to care for MY CHILDREN. The way I see it, the US government is dutibound to care for it's own BEFORE it worries about "saving the rest of the world."

Of course it is not this simple - that one can only care for their own (although in this country it is often the case that one can not EVEN care for their own) and not help others. All I am saying is that perhaps the US might want to think about shifting some of the effort it puts into helping others and redirecting a bit of that aid to IT'S OWN.

And I think you forget that you are speaking to A MOTHER. My body took from itself to feed a child FIRST. This is a conscious decision that I made before I conceived so I don't understand your example.

I can and DO take care of myself. I am looking towards the best interest of MY CHILDREN. If this makes me less compassionate and selfish then that is a shoe that I wear GLADLY.

Now it seems there is a difference in analogies. You think:

mother is to child as U.S. government is to U.S. citizen

I don't share your belief that the government has a greater duty to help the people living within its borders than the people living outside. We do not "belong" to the Mother US or Mother Constitution. I look at it like we are all citizens of a world economy and world household.

So, the natural child should not be treated with greater care or priority than the adopted child, to put it in your terms.

Once again, just a difference of definitions.

 

[Frackal]

YOU FUCKSTICKS MISS THE POINT. THE POEM IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IRAQ BUT ABOUT THE MILITARY THAT PROTECTS OUR FREEDOM. I SHOULD HAVE SAID THE POEM WAS WRITTEN ABOUT WW2. THEN NONE OF YOU WHINEY BABIES WOULD BE WHINING. GIVE THE FUCKING GUYS SOME CREDIT. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THE MILITARY WE HAVE, WE WOULD BE INVADED/CONQUERED RATHER QUICKLY. YOU FOOLS MUST HAVE FAILED LITERATURE CLASSES IN COLLEGE. I'D HATE TO READ YOUR ANALYZATION OF PEOMS.

AND TO WHOMEVER SAID IRAQ DIDNT HAVE ANY LINKS TO AL QUEDA, YOU ARE NOTHING SHORT OF A MORON. SADDAM HAS STATED PUBLICLY THAT HE SUPPORTED THEM MORALLY AND FINANANCIALLY. NOT TO MENTION WE HAVE CAUGHT AL QUEDA MEMBERS FIGHTING IN IRAQ. HOW MUCH MORE LINKS DO YOU NEED???

You have a link to that quote? Also I wouldnt call al-qaeda guys coming in to join the fight exactly the same thing

 

[MP5]

Cannot afford daycare? Don't have children.

It is not the government's job to feed, clothe and care for you and your family. Especially on someone else's dime.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Now it seems there is a difference in analogies. You think:

mother is to child as U.S. government is to U.S. citizen

I don't share your belief that the government has a greater duty to help the people living within its borders than the people living outside. We do not "belong" to the Mother US or Mother Constitution. I look at it like we are all citizens of a world economy and world household.

So, the natural child should not be treated with greater care or priority than the adopted child, to put it in your terms.

Once again, just a difference of definitions.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. You posed the question to me citing the example of YOU being homeless sharing your sandwich with your homeless comrade asking if I would do the same. I only answered that such a question posed to me, as a mother, is silly because by the very fact that I am a mother I have taken from myself to give to another so I do, indeed understand YOUR definition of compassion - giving freely, asking nothing in return.

I do NOT think that I am entitled to a FREE ANYTHING from my or any other government. I work, I take care of my children, I pay taxes and we do just fine. But there are so many others in MY COUNTRY that are not able to do that so I think that the government might be better serve IT'S OWN PEOPLE by shifting a little more of their "compassion" from "the rest of the world".

Think about it. Is it not counterproductive and sel-destructive for a country to be MORE CONCERNED (not saying that there should be ZERO concern) with the citizens of other countries while being LESS CONCERNED with it's own?

And MP5 - you have the right idea.

By the way I do feed, clothe and care for MY OWN CHILDREN... it is the OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN THAT CONCERN ME. After all, it will be these children that will most likely harm MY CHILDREN or YOUR CHILDREN AND YOU if we don't ALL CARE ABOUT THEM. After all, isn't the US THE MOST COMPASSIONATE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?

 

[dballer]

What I am saying is that our INTERNAL problems should be more important IMO.

These are the best words you have ever typed. This is one of your posts that actually made me smile. Not that you care or anything.. but just thought I would let you know that I agree 110%

 

[Bikini Mod]

Actually... I think hell might be freezing over!

LOL

Believe it or not, I am not what a lot of you who can't see past my STOOPID job THINK I AM.

(Not saying that you fit in this category... just saying....)

 

[bigguns7]

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

No, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. You are saying that an American in Chicago deserves aid before an African in Uganda. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just disagree.

Neither an African with AIDS nor a homeless crackhead pays taxes in the US, so I say they both deserve equal help. Actually, an African has never been given the chance to make something of himself, but an American bum has, so I say the African deserves the aid more. But hey, we all have our own opinions.

 

[dballer]

No, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. You are saying that an American in Chicago deserves aid before an African in Uganda. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just disagree.

Neither an African with AIDS nor a homeless crackhead pays taxes in the US, so I say they both deserve equal help. Actually, an African has never been given the chance to make something of himself, but an American bum has, so I say the African deserves the aid more. But hey, we all have our own opinions.

WHAT?? are you serious???

I guess that is why Atlanta is the way it is. Midtown is made up of alot of folks that think that way. I am glad I headed out of that place. The name should be changed to Gomorrah.. or Sodom.

 

[bigguns7]

WHAT?? are you serious???

I guess that is why Atlanta is the way it is. Midtown is made up of alot of folks that think that way. I am glad I headed out of that place. The name should be changed to Gomorrah.. or Sodom.

I'm not saying that I gladly pay taxes to support these activites. I despise the welfare system totally. What I am saying is that the federal government is taking my money from me whether I like it or not. So, since it is being taken, I would rather see it go towards educating a Somalian child rather than keeping a crackhead welfare mother sitting on her front porch and not working.

 

[dballer]

I'm not saying that I gladly pay taxes to support these activites. I despise the welfare system totally. What I am saying is that the federal government is taking my money from me whether I like it or not. So, since it is being taken, I would rather see it go towards educating a Somalian child rather than keeping a crackhead welfare mother sitting on her front porch and not working.

I would rather see it spent on helping a 3rd generation farmer from Tifton Georgia keep his farm. Fuck Atlanta.. it is done in for. AIDS and homosexual promotion have driven my intrest out of the city. But even then, I would rather my tax money go to help the scumbags of this country over someone unfortunate from another.

WHY???

Because we go out and help a country in Africa.. once we get them set up and back on their feet, they are in our pockets forever.
Look at Israel, we helped them get together and start that county in 47.. and what happened? We have been floating their ass ever since. They even demamded more than our yearly 4 billion after desert storm.. Yitzak Shamir was asked "why do you need an additional 2 billion on top of the 4 billion you are already getting?" he replied.."Because we need the money"

 

[bigguns7]

But even then, I would rather my tax money go to help the scumbags of this country over someone unfortunate from another.

I'd rather let the sumbags of this country die out. At least an African kid whose parents both died of AIDS might try to make something of himself.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Now it seems there is a difference in analogies. You think:

mother is to child as U.S. government is to U.S. citizen

I don't share your belief that the government has a greater duty to help the people living within its borders than the people living outside. We do not "belong" to the Mother US or Mother Constitution. I look at it like we are all citizens of a world economy and world household.

What Disney Land fairy tale did you dream this one up from? The government is not a "mother" but an institution designed to protect the rights of the citizens. Being created by the actions of its citizens, it protects their "self-interests", which cannot be disconnected from their benefits, cannot be removed from the desirable end of "self-promotion". This being said, your idea of altruism, where the lives and property of the members of this nation are at the disposal of others, who are not vested interests of the nation's members, is irrational. We only have interest to combat situations that directly relate to our well-being, since that is all that is intrusted in our government. If this were not, then the government could bankrupt every citizen in order to fight every war on the globe, and would have the moral authority to do so. Does it have this authority? To deprive us of liberty at the sake of others? To enslave us for the freedom of another?

So, the natural child should not be treated with greater care or priority than the adopted child, to put it in your terms.

Your analogy only works with "adopted" children, where the parent has chosen to take on the care of the child. Willfully accepting this duty makes the care of the child a personal interest. Your analogy does not fit the concept of the US governing the world. When did the citizens agree that their liberty and possessions are to be sapped for the benefit of those who they have never met? When did we agree to kill our citizens for those who share no bond with us? Your analogy would have been better represented by saying that a mother has no greater reason to care for her child than she does of caring for a child in another state. Her child should have no greater worth to her than one that she sees on television.

Once again, just a difference of definitions.

Your definition is wrong.

 

[bigguns7]

When did the citizens agree that their liberty and possessions are to be sapped for the benefit of those who they have never met? When did we agree to kill our citizens for those who share no bond with us?

When does a natural child ever get to voice an opinion on whether his parents get to adopt a child? And when did I ever agree to pay a portion of my income so that my fellow citizens could be better off? You act is if we actually have some say in the decisions that our country makes on a global level. your above statemetn implies that there is some sort of vote on whether or not to go to war, and that the outcome of that vote actually matters. The US government doesn't have to ask us if it's okay to do anything. (okay they have to ask us, but it doesn't matter what our answer is).

At any rate, you're right that my anaolgy is bad, because my whole statement revolved around the fact that bmom gave a bad analogy. You cannot place mother-son principles on a nation-citizen plane. That was my whole point. So you're counteracting my bad anaology, which was used to counteract another bad anaolgy, with a bad anaolgy of your own.

At any rate, my responses were about what constitutes compassion, not what is Constitutional or what our government was designed to do.

 

[atlantabiolab]

When does a natural child ever get to voice an opinion on whether his parents get to adopt a child? And when did I ever agree to pay a portion of my income so that my fellow citizens could be better off? You act is if we actually have some say in the decisions that our country makes on a global level. your above statemetn implies that there is some sort of vote on whether or not to go to war, and that the outcome of that vote actually matters. The US government doesn't have to ask us if it's okay to do anything. (okay they have to ask us, but it doesn't matter what our answer is).

If you are arguing fact and not value, then why are you trying to imply compassion as an objective. If the government is going to act as it wishes, which we allow it to do, then why delude yourself that it is with our compassion? You are arguing that we as citizens impart our emotions on government actions, then contradict yourself, by saying that it doesn't really matter because it does what it wishes.

Your initial argument was that we are not US citizens, but world citizens, where we are to be at the beck and call for all the ills of the world, and that we gleefully do this all for compassion.

At any rate, you're right that my anaolgy is bad, because my whole statement revolved around the fact that bmom gave a bad analogy. You cannot place mother-son principles on a nation-citizen plane. That was my whole point. So you're counteracting my bad anaology, which was used to counteract another bad anaolgy, with a bad anaolgy of your own.

At any rate, my responses were about what constitutes compassion, not what is Constitutional or what our government was designed to do.

Compassion is personal, remove this concept from government actions, and return it to it's rightful place, with the individual. Government is to uphold laws, not opinions. Compassionate conservatism is a monstrosity of reason.

 

[spongebob]

I don't know what other countries do.

But I also see the "working poor" of THIS COUNTRY. People who barely make enough money to live but who make too much to get good health care.


No country is perfect. But to say that we are THE BEST simply is not true.

1. if you dont know what other countries do then why are you trying to argue his point, which was the US is the most compassionate. most doesnt mean perfect, which you already agreed no country is perfect, most means more than others.

2. b-mom, in this country under most circumstances people have more opportunity than any other. some people call "tough love" compassion.

3. why is it not true? you havent cited one reference about any other countrys compassion. your simply stated issues you dont agree with in this country. i would think some kind of comparrison would be needed to come to your conclusion that we are not the most compassionate.

 

[spongebob]

I didn't know there were a lot of war protestors reading EF threads.

that and alot of "inquisitive citizens". the latest phrase coined here on EF just recently.

 

[spongebob]

I would rather see it spent on helping a 3rd generation farmer from Tifton Georgia keep his farm. Fuck Atlanta.. it is done in for. AIDS and homosexual promotion have driven my intrest out of the city. But even then, I would rather my tax money go to help the scumbags of this country over someone unfortunate from another.

why? if a product is no longer needed the so be it. why dont we help third generation chemical company operators(me). the AN and styrene market is killing my company, i may be out of work. where's the love?

 

[Bikini Mod]

1. if you dont know what other countries do then why are you trying to argue his point, which was the US is the most compassionate. most doesnt mean perfect, which you already agreed no country is perfect, most means more than others.

2. b-mom, in this country under most circumstances people have more opportunity than any other. some people call "tough love" compassion.

3. why is it not true? you havent cited one reference about any other countrys compassion. your simply stated issues you dont agree with in this country. i would think some kind of comparrison would be needed to come to your conclusion that we are not the most compassionate.

Okay point well taken... somewhat.

How can you say that there are more opportunities in this country than in any other? Where did you get that "fact" from. If this was truly the case NO ONE would stay in their own country and the US would sink from the weight of all the immigrants. Come on, you don't honestly believe this statement do you?

Are you also trying to say that NO OTHER COUNTRY affords aid to countries outside of their own?... that THE US IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TO DO THIS?!

I dunno, I have a very close friend who is DIRECTLY involved with MISSION WORK both administratively and personally. In the year that I have known him he has organized many missions and taken an active part in two: one to AFGHANISTAN the other to RUMANIA.

The Afghanistan mission was to set up a hospital-type situation for the local people (on this mission, one of his co-workers was killed as the muslims do not trust the Red Cross even though they are there to help, due to ignorance. They mistakenly believe that the cross symbolizes christianity which it does not.) and the Rumanian mission was to set up an orphanage for sick children. He does not get paid for this work as it is strictly mission work for THE RED CROSS... NOT THE US RED CROSS, though but THE FRENCH RED CROSS.

PS - the RED CROSS was founded in SWITZERLAND (not the US).

So, I guess I am making a logical assumption that if THE FRENCH RED CROSS does SOME humanitarian work in countries other than it's own, there MUST BE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT DO THIS AS WELL. I mean, if a bunch of pussy asshole French can throw a few crumbs to a few of the world's citizens, then surely there must be so much more compassion coming from countries that are not overrun with such low-life, bottom-feeding, selfish, assholes... right?

He also regularly lectures at a French university about humanitarianism and how ALL CITIZENS are duti-bound to help those that are less fortunate. Another job that he does not do for pay, but because he feels passionately that it is his responsibility to make the younger generation coming up behind him aware that THEY MUST ALSO SHOW COMPASSION TO THOSE THAT NEED IT MOST... THOSE THAT CAN NOT EVEN UTTER THE WORDS "THANK YOU.".... EVEN THOSE THAT MAY HATE YOU.

Have I conducted a study? Do I have concrete numbers? NO, that is the only reason that I said that I DO NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES DO.

See, another AMERICAN assumption: We are the only ones who do humanitarian work in the world... and THAT WE DO THE MOST in comparison to other countries.

I just had an idea... I will ask my friend if there is any way that I can find out better statistics or facts about this question. He is very busy rebuilding TWO hospitals and organizing more missions than ever, obviously now because of the war so I can not tell you EXACTLY when I will be able to post the information, but I will ask.

 

[muscle_geek]

Okay point well taken... somewhat.

How can you say that there are more opportunities in this country than in any other? Where did you get that "fact" from. If this was truly the case NO ONE would stay in their own country and the US would sink from the weight of all the immigrants. Come on, you don't honestly believe this statement do you?

Are you also trying to say that NO OTHER COUNTRY affords aid to countries outside of their own?... that THE US IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TO DO THIS?!

I dunno, I have a very close friend who is DIRECTLY involved with MISSION WORK both administratively and personally. In the year that I have known him he has organized many missions and taken an active part in two: one to AFGHANISTAN the other to RUMANIA.

The Afghanistan mission was to set up a hospital-type situation for the local people (on this mission, one of his co-workers was killed as the muslims do not trust the Red Cross even though they are there to help, due to ignorance. They mistakenly believe that the cross symbolizes christianity which it does not.) and the Rumanian mission was to set up an orphanage for sick children. He does not get paid for this work as it is strictly mission work for THE RED CROSS... NOT THE US RED CROSS, though but THE FRENCH RED CROSS.

It sounds like you have a few select friends from other countries that do some really good work. But I'll tell you for a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No other country in the world participates in more humanitarian aid than the good old USA. I'll state that for a fucking fact!!!!!!!!! If anyone can prove otherwise I would be interested in seeing it. I don't remember any French dieing in Somalia so that their people could EAT! I was fortunate that I didn't get deployed to Somalia during that time. But I was a Ranger in the 101st during that time. I heard the horror stories from friends. I'm not going to say that I would die for my country. I don't want to die. But I would fight for my country. And if I die, then so be it. That's the way we are. The American soldier is unique. We're men just like the rest of the world, but we have courage and strength like no others. I got a little off topic here, but I guess you would have to be in the military and fight and die for what many people in the world find frivolous, to understand our pride.

PS - the RED CROSS was founded in SWITZERLAND (not the US).

So, I guess I am making a logical assumption that if THE FRENCH RED CROSS does SOME humanitarian work in countries other than it's own, there MUST BE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT DO THIS AS WELL. I mean, if a bunch of pussy asshole French can throw a few crumbs to a few of the world's citizens, then surely there must be so much more compassion coming from countries that are not overrun with such low-life, bottom-feeding, selfish, assholes... right?

He also regularly lectures at a French university about humanitarianism and how ALL CITIZENS are duti-bound to help those that are less fortunate. Another job that he does not do for pay, but because he feels passionately that it is his responsibility to make the younger generation coming up behind him aware that THEY MUST ALSO SHOW COMPASSION TO THOSE THAT NEED IT MOST... THOSE THAT CAN NOT EVEN UTTER THE WORDS "THANK YOU.".... EVEN THOSE THAT MAY HATE YOU.

Have I conducted a study? Do I have concrete numbers? NO, that is the only reason that I said that I DO NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES DO.

See, another AMERICAN assumption: We are the only ones who do humanitarian work in the world... and THAT WE DO THE MOST in comparison to other countries.

I just had an idea... I will ask my friend if there is any way that I can find out better statistics or facts about this question. He is very busy rebuilding TWO hospitals and organizing more missions than ever, obviously now because of the war so I can not tell you EXACTLY when I will be able to post the information, but I will ask.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Muscle geek - I appreciate and respect what you did FOR ME because I am an American citizen. There are no words to express my gratitude.

Perhaps it is because I did not share your experience that I do not fully understand your zeal (sort of akin to me never being able to explain to you fully what it is like to carry a child).

Having said that with all due respect.... you were not in Afghanistan saving lives were you? Does the fact that you were an American soldier in Somalia negate all the other places where peaceful YET NO LESS DANGEROUS humanitarian work was and is being performed by other countries?

Please do not get upset as I am not attempting to do anything other than proliferate intelligent discourse and provoke thought.

And I will try to find some numbers for you as I stated in my previous post. I can not guarantee that I will be able to find them as I have to depend on someone who is very busy with work, but I will ask. And I will post up whatever findings I come up with - good, bad, or indifferent.

 

[muscle_geek]

Bikinmom, I don't get upset over threads. I believe that other countries do humanitarian work. I will not argue that. I have a problem with France right now and you seem to carry their flag somewhat because you have one, or a few friends involved in good things. I'm pissed off at them and Germany because I truly believe that this war would not have taken place if the UN would have showed strength with Iraq. China and USSR (Russia) were expected to not side with us. But the French and Germans were against us on the final resolution. This gave Saddam a feeling that he could play the diplomatic game. Over a 100 Americans have died because the UN did not unanimously oppose The Iraqi regime. On top of that if you think that Germany and France opposed the war for noble or humanitarian reasons, you would be very naive. France has more economic ties to Iraq than any other country. Shroeder (sp) is fighting for his political life. Neither of these countries cared to do WHAT IS RIGHT. Saddam had to go. He is responsible for the killing of millions. I feel if the UN supported us that Saddam would have agreed to step down. This is just my opinion. I'm saddened by the loss of American and Iraqi people. I know that many people on this board think that America is evil. I do not accept that. I am America and you are America. Are you evil. Are you compassionate? What are we?

 

[JOKER47]

bikinimom

Please, please, please tell me what country, or country's, this is that gives affordable child care, feeds all of their homeless, (or makes sure their aren't any homeless) clothes all their children, provides education for all the poor to get a better job, and and THEN goes and helps other countries after EVERYONE in their country is fat and happy, because I really want to deport and live there. I'm not kidding.


BTW, your comment:
"How can you say that there are more opportunities in this country than in any other? Where did you get that "fact" from. If this was truly the case NO ONE would stay in their own country and the US would sink from the weight of all the immigrants. Come on, you don't honestly believe this statement do you?"

YOU don't honestly believe that we haven't had an immigrant problem for the last 50 years or so, do you?

Naaaaawww.....There hasn't been anyone trying to get into our country at all costs because they were starving in theirs.

Naaaawww...Thet didn't come over here, leave their family's at home, work for years just to save enough to move their family's to the "Land of Opportunity" did they?

Hell no...I must have the wrong country.


Joker

 

[Norman Bates]

Re: bikinimom

Please, please, please tell me what country, or country's, this is that gives affordable child care, feeds all of their homeless, (or makes sure their aren't any homeless) clothes all their children, provides education for all the poor to get a better job, and and THEN goes and helps other countries after EVERYONE in their country is fat and happy, because I really want to deport and live there. I'm not kidding.

In Germany, homeless have the right for homes. The ones that are on the street are too proud to accept this. People that are too poor , that get Sozialhilfe, are entitled to clothing, feeding and medical care. Education , including universities, is for free, students from poor families get a interest-free loan for their studies.
And, surprise, we have a big foreign aid program, too.
Germany is rich enough for that and the US is, too, you just have chosen to spend your money on your military.

 

[Bikini Mod]

if you think that Germany and France opposed the war for noble or humanitarian reasons, you would be very naive.

I never EVER said this and yes, I do agree that ANYONE who thinks that a country's foreign policies are based strictly or even MOSTLY on humanitarianism IS VERY NAIVE. I believe that this is ALL politics and has NOTHING to DO WITH PEOPLE. To say that you are "pissed off" at an entire country because of the policy of its government is totally contradictory because you end your post like this....

I know that many people on this board think that America is evil. I do not accept that. I am America and you are America. Are you evil. Are you compassionate? What are we?

THIS IS ALL THAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY FROM THE BEGINNING!!! THIS GOES BOTH WAYS.... It applies to Americans, Iraqis, French, German and whatever other country, religion, gender, WHATEVER external definition applies.

One should not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character alone.

I believe that these were words from Martin Luther King, Jr. I am only applying it to a broader external definition - not just the color of one's skin, but by the country of one's origin.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Re: Re: bikinimom

In Germany, homeless have the right for homes. The ones that are on the street are too proud to accept this. People that are too poor , that get Sozialhilfe, are entitled to clothing, feeding and medical care. Education , including universities, is for free, students from poor families get a interest-free loan for their studies.
And, surprise, we have a big foreign aid program, too.
Germany is rich enough for that and the US is, too, you just have chosen to spend your money on your military.

But can you buy 30 different types of cheeses at 4AM?!

BEAT THAT!!!!

 

[CanadianCripple]

Re: Re: bikinimom

In Germany, homeless have the right for homes. The ones that are on the street are too proud to accept this. People that are too poor , that get Sozialhilfe, are entitled to clothing, feeding and medical care. Education , including universities, is for free, students from poor families get a interest-free loan for their studies.
And, surprise, we have a big foreign aid program, too.
Germany is rich enough for that and the US is, too, you just have chosen to spend your money on your military.

Do you live in Germany?

Why don't people put the ACTUAL flag of the country to which they belong? It has bearing on the way I respond to posts. Especially crap like this.

 

[Rockafella Skank]

He also regularly lectures at a French university about humanitarianism and how ALL CITIZENS are duti-bound to help those that are less fortunate. Another job that he does not do for pay, but because he feels passionately that it is his responsibility to make the younger generation coming up behind him aware that THEY MUST ALSO SHOW COMPASSION TO THOSE THAT NEED IT MOST... THOSE THAT CAN NOT EVEN UTTER THE WORDS "THANK YOU.".... EVEN THOSE THAT MAY HATE YOU.

This sounds like our mission in Iraq. Hundreds of children imprisoned because they weren't loyal to the regime needed our help. People who danced in the streets when the Army and the Marines rolled in needed our help. Bagdhad police, who burned their uniforms because they feared being seen as loyalists to the regime and are now offering to help restore law and order, needed our help. A people who have been said hate us, many of whom now wave the US flag in celebration and thank the US president by name, needed our help.

Toppling a dictatorial regime doesn't happen through dialog (name one that has) and a terrified Iraqi people weren't in any position to take up arms themselves. I admire the pluck of the Kurds and the resolve of the Shiite majority but they weren't going to get the job done, either. The Arab world wanted Saddam gone but were afraid, to a degree, as well. Who is left?

And yes, this war is also about oil. A $10 drop in the price of a barrel of oil is tantamount to $100 million tax cut. The opposite is also true ... raise the price by $10 and it's like $100 million tax hike. Saddam was sitting on the world's second largest oil reserve and keeping the wealth for himself ... 79 presidential palaces attest to that. The affect of oil on the world's economy is staggering. This isn't just about filling up our SUVs with cheap gas. The number of things we -- in the global sense -- buy at the store that are transported and made with petroleum products are affected. Countless durable goods, hospital supplies, the stuff in our gyms, our clothes ... and the list goes on. And don't forget the machines that are used to make the stuff use petroleum products, too. While I might argue whether I need some of the things that fall in the list, the ones that are absolutely indispensible affect my family and your family and my neighbor's family greatly. Higher prices because transportation and manufacturing costs have increased eats into our collective wealth. I don't know about you, but having more of my paycheck left over after providing for my family makes it easier for me to look after myself AND my brother. Sounds like taking care of our own to me.

And this war is also about flexing our might ... a necessary stand in the wake of 9/11. Think that Kim Jong Il hasn't taken notice of current events lately? Think again. Same goes for Bashar al-Assad in Syria. Shock and awe was as much for the world's eyes as it was for Saddam's regime. Being namby-pamby about it all is a greater invitation to further violence from without on American soil. Sadly, 9/11 occurred, in part, because al Qaeda perceived that the US was weak. And while some terrorist's blood may be boiling as we speak, this same terrorist knows the US and British aren't to be trifled with and THAT may very well be enough to make them think twice. Neither shaking our fists at them nor asking them to be nice to us would have done any good. In 1941, after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto said, "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." And so it goes; history repeated itself 60 years later.

I don't believe that we're doing it simply because we can. But to think that other wars we've fought haven't been about political and/or economic concern -- in addition to securing freedom -- is ignorant of history. On the same hand, the thing that separates our wars from the wars of most other countries is the "securing freedom" component. It doesn't make a war any better. But it makes the fight worth the sacrifice.

 

[The Ranger]

VERY NICE Rock....Very nice indeed my man.....

Ranger

 

[Bikini Mod]

VERY NICE Rock....Very nice indeed my man.....

Ranger

Yes Rock... I won't disagree with much of what you say.

I guess then it would be safe to say that AMERICAN soldiers are probably thankful to have FRENCH mission workers such as my friend. As long as there is war, he sadly will not be out of a job... or at least not that aspect of his work anyway.

 

[Norman Bates]

Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

Do you live in Germany?

Why don't people put the ACTUAL flag of the country to which they belong? It has bearing on the way I respond to posts. Especially crap like this.

You don´t like it when you are wrong,do you?
After that you resort to name-calling, how cute. It just shows that you are not capable of admitting when you tell bullshit.

 

[KAYNE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

You don´t like it when you are wrong,do you?
After that you resort to name-calling, how cute. It just shows that you are not capable of admitting when you tell bullshit.

YOU JUST DESCRIBED FONZY BABY. HE IS JUST LIKE THAT. HE RESORTED TO TELLING SCHOOL YARD JOKES LIKE A 12 YEAR OLD.





KAYNE

 

[Norman Bates]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

YOU JUST DESCRIBED FONZY BABY. HE IS JUST LIKE THAT. HE RESORTED TO TELLING SCHOOL YARD JOKES LIKE A 12 YEAR OLD.





KAYNE

The flame wars of you and fonz are actually quite entertaining

 

[KAYNE]

FONZY BABY IS A BITCH. HE RESORTS TO NAME CALLING AND SCHOOLYARD INSULTS. HE DISAPPEARS WHEN I START TALKING ABOUT THE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF STEROIDS HE HAS DONE YET HE STILL ONLY WEIGHS 185LBS. ATHLETE OR NO ATHLETE.....IF YOU DO THAT MUCH STEROIDS, YOU SHOULD BE A BIT HEAVIER. LOOK AT FOOTBALL PLAYERS...THEY ARE IN CAMPS AND DOING CARDIO ALL THE TIME. THEY ARE A LITTLE HEAVIER THAN 185LBS LIKE OUR BELOVED FONZY BABY.



KAYNE

 

[Bikini Mod]

Re: bikinimom

Please, please, please tell me what country, or country's, this is that gives affordable child care, feeds all of their homeless, (or makes sure their aren't any homeless) clothes all their children, provides education for all the poor to get a better job, and and THEN goes and helps other countries after EVERYONE in their country is fat and happy, because I really want to deport and live there. I'm not kidding.


BTW, your comment:
"How can you say that there are more opportunities in this country than in any other? Where did you get that "fact" from. If this was truly the case NO ONE would stay in their own country and the US would sink from the weight of all the immigrants. Come on, you don't honestly believe this statement do you?"

YOU don't honestly believe that we haven't had an immigrant problem for the last 50 years or so, do you?

Naaaaawww.....There hasn't been anyone trying to get into our country at all costs because they were starving in theirs.

Naaaawww...Thet didn't come over here, leave their family's at home, work for years just to save enough to move their family's to the "Land of Opportunity" did they?

Hell no...I must have the wrong country.


Joker

Somehow I don't think that that US will sink into the sea anytime soon from hords of immigrants from the UK, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan.... oh yes, and France... in the last decade or so. This is Just a MINUTE sampling.

 

[CanadianCripple]

Re: Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

You don´t like it when you are wrong,do you?
After that you resort to name-calling, how cute. It just shows that you are not capable of admitting when you tell bullshit.

Wrong about what?

Name calling?

Now answer my question.

On another note... 2Thick, where the Hell is the thread where I got on your case?

 

[2Thick]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

On another note... 2Thick, where the Hell is the thread where I got on your case?

Which one, LOL

 

[CanadianCripple]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

Which one, LOL

Screw it. I found the thread & noticed you didn't bother taking me on. People are losing their edge.

I'm sick of the whole war, Canada vs. USA BLAH BLAH BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH... anyway.

I'm just hoping the PQ will get booted tonight.

Holy crap this board is slow.

 

[mskmatt]

Re: Re: bikinimom

Somehow I don't think that that US will sink into the sea anytime soon from hords of immigrants from the UK, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan.... oh yes, and France... in the last decade or so. This is Just a MINUTE sampling.

If you feel this way then take a look at CA right now. Mr. Grey Davis decided that he would give healthcare to all the children whose parents could not afford it for them. Due to this as well as other things implemented by him, CA is now going through one of the worst recession that it has ever had. He is now reaching for money everywhere. I have read a few of your other posts about not wanting to pay for other people children but we in CA will be starting to in 2003. Mr. Davis has decided to enact the following tax "remedies" because of the healthcare issue and the desire of a pure Democratic govt: 2 new tax brackets 9% & 10%, if you have income in your company in the CY but a loss last year then you cannot use that loss, and there are more.

One other thing: do you know what the tax rates are in the countries that you listed above? I believe that you do not because most of us are stunned that the US govt will take away in taxes at least 10% but no more than 39% from us. However, if you were to live in these great countries above then you could taxed anywhere from 40% to 65%. Yes, 65% if you want a Socialist government. Hmm, most people spend at least 20% of their income on food so that leaves you with 15% of your cash to go and do important things in life like Fina (LOL) or vacation.

My one thing that I say to everyone that is saying something against the government of our country: Our president knows a lot more than you do. You can say what you want but if you were in Irag (6 months ago) saying something against Saddam then you would be dead.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Re: Re: Re: bikinimom

One other thing: do you know what the tax rates are in the countries that you listed above? I believe that you do not because most of us are stunned that the US govt will take away in taxes at least 10% but no more than 39% from us. However, if you were to live in these great countries above then you could taxed anywhere from 40% to 65%. Yes, 65% if you want a Socialist government. Hmm, most people spend at least 20% of their income on food so that leaves you with 15% of your cash to go and do important things in life like Fina (LOL) or vacation.

I guess that I will shortly find out LOL! And I wonder if those people are all being taxed to death how it is that they all live comfortably, don't work more than 35 hours p/week (that is LAW in France), and still manage to vacation 2 - 4 weeks out of the year?

My one thing that I say to everyone that is saying something against the government of our country: Our president knows a lot more than you do. You can say what you want but if you were in Irag (6 months ago) saying something against Saddam then you would be dead.

I don't disagree with this however, I didn't say that I would want to live in a cesspool. The US might be a wonderful country in which to live, but IT AIN'T THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. I don't think that I would meet an untimely death if I had something negative to say about the Canadian, Swiss, Spanish, French governments (to name a few). Do you?

 

[mskmatt]

In response

I guess that I will shortly find out LOL! And I wonder if those people are all being taxed to death how it is that they all live comfortably, don't work more than 35 hours p/week (that is LAW in France), and still manage to vacation 2 - 4 weeks out of the year?

IMO, they don't live comfortably. I lived a short while in Oxford (during college) and the people that I lived with there needed my rent money to make ends meet.
Yeah, there are always the people that live comfortably but that is also the case in the whole world.
If I could work just 35 hours a week that would be great but I highly doubt that for certain industries in France. It may be possible to limit the government workers to 35 hours but take a lawyer or an accountant or even a fisherman, I say they all work on average more than 40 hours a week.
In some ways, socialism works great - free healthcare to all and other similar benefits but the taxes are really high. A friend of mine that lives in Norway tells me that she does not think that they will ever be able to buy a house unless they get helped out by the government or by somebody else. However, the cost of their first pregnancy is nothing.

I don't disagree with this however, I didn't say that I would want to live in a cesspool. The US might be a wonderful country in which to live, but IT AIN'T THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. I don't think that I would meet an untimely death if I had something negative to say about the Canadian, Swiss, Spanish, French governments (to name a few). Do you?

Real simple response to this, the war is in Iraq so in reality you should not even be referring to the French, Canadians, Spanish, or the Swiss (even though these people are some of the most opinionated or proud people that I have ever met).
However, I will soon be living somewhere else than the US(preferably Australia or New Zealand) because the citizens of this great country that I am proud to be a part of can get really annoying.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Re: In response

If I could work just 35 hours a week that would be great but I highly doubt that for certain industries in France. It may be possible to limit the government workers to 35 hours but take a lawyer or an accountant or even a fisherman, I say they all work on average more than 40 hours a week.

You are incorrect. I have a close friend who runs a hospital and (for example) there is a REAL SHORTAGE of nursing staff (which is still primarily female) because most that are mothers take time as much time as possible off to be with their children.

Also NO GROCERY STORES ARE OPEN ON SUNDAY IN FRANCE. Not to mention many clubs and restarants ALSO CLOSE REGULARLY DURING THE WEEK in freaking Paris! One would think that those businesses would HAVE TO REMAIN OPEN FOR TOURIST DOLLARS... NOPE!

I also know of MANY who live VERY COMFORTABLY if they are educated or have a decent trade. Yes, they have a house, car and vacation.

Not saying that a mechanic earns as much as a doctor, but they both live very well according to their level of skill/education.

No country is without flaws but Americans need to recognize that the US IS NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. There are many other countries that afford their citizens ample opportunities, in many cases SUPERIOR education, childcare AND access to medicine. Of course, those that have the most money have access to THE BEST regardless of which it is that they reside in.

I am not, by any means saying that the US isn't great, just that it may not necessarily be THE GREATEST. There are many other countries that ARE GREAT.