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this war really IS about oil

strongchick

Well-known member
October 14, 2001
The New York Times

Fears, Again, of Oil Supplies at Risk
By NEELA BANERJEE

THEY are the nightmares, the worst confluence of misguided decisions and startling violence, that politicians and oil executives ponder briefly and then shoo away:

That sympathizers of Osama bin Laden sink three oil tankers in the Strait of Hormuz and choke off the narrow, bow-shaped channel that funnels 14 million barrels a day from the Persian Gulf to the rest of the world. That the United States attacks Iraq, and Israel launches a huge strike against the Palestinians, driving them from their camps and staking out more land — all of which spurs the Persian Gulf states to cut off oil for the West. Or perhaps that a popular uprising, led by sympathizers of Mr. bin Laden, topples the ruling Saud family in Saudi Arabia, by far the world's largest oil producer.

"If bin Laden takes over and becomes king of Saudi Arabia, he'd turn off the tap," said Roger Diwan, a managing director of the Petroleum Finance Company, a consulting firm in Washington. "He said at one point that he wants oil to be $144 a barrel" — about six times what it sells for now.

The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and the subsequent battering of the global economy have stretched the edges of imagination. Most Western politicians and oil industry experts say they believe assurances from the Middle East that oil supplies will stay stable as the American-led attacks on terrorist groups continue. But in such a profoundly changed world, they concede, anything is possible.

If there is a serious disruption of oil supplies, it will probably not be in Venezuela or in the North Sea, but in the countries of the Persian Gulf. Those countries have taken the politically risky position of siding with the West, however quietly, in the campaign against Mr. bin Laden, thereby alienating many of their own citizens. And the proof of their support for the West is in the oil that OPEC nations continue to ship, recently forgoing a production cut even as they faced falling prices that rob them of revenue.

By attacking oil supplies or the Middle East regimes themselves, Mr. bin Laden's supporters would strike a powerful blow against the West.

The United States' own oil production and that of its allies in the Western Hemisphere could not take up the slack. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve, a stockpile created in 1975 to deal with such emergencies in the United States, could cover the lost oil for a time, but its efficacy would depend on the length and size of the disruption. Congress is looking for ways to add to the reserve, but it remains unclear whether the money could be found to acquire the oil quickly. New oil fields could not begin pumping fast enough to make up for the shortfall, and they would not produce enough anyway. The United States has only 3 percent of the world's known oil reserves.

The country's ability to navigate such a rocky period, industry experts said, ultimately depends on how much American society scales back its prodigious consumption of oil. High prices and lower supplies pushed the United States to trim its use of oil in the 1980's, but the country now relies more than ever on imports. Imports account for 60 percent of daily American oil consumption, up from 47 percent a decade ago. "We can't just blame Detroit for higher oil consumption," said Jay Hakes, the former director of the Energy Information Administration, the analytical arm of the Energy Department. "We're all in this. We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us."

As far back as the Truman administration, when automobile use started to soar, the United States has grappled with where to get oil and how much to pay for it, Mr. Hakes pointed out. The nation has always faced a choice. It could rely on its own small output but pay much higher prices for it and for alternative energy sources. Or it could open itself up to imports from places like the Persian Gulf, increasing its economic and political vulnerability. It chose the latter.

The United States gets only about 13 percent of its daily dose of oil from the Persian Gulf states, and that is down from 23 percent a decade ago. But those countries produce 18 percent of the world's oil, and a significant disruption in their output would set off price spikes, if not outright shortages. The turmoil in the region during the last three decades frequently aroused fears, sometimes well-founded, of oil supply disruptions.


BUFFETED by repeated wars, the Persian Gulf states have long been aware of the need to protect their pipelines and oil fields, and industry experts familiar with the region say those countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, have heightened security since Sept. 11.

No system, however, is impregnable. Terrorists in a dinghy in the Persian Gulf could launch missiles at offshore rigs or Saudi fields, some of which are just a few miles inland. They could rupture a pipeline. They could attack the string of oil loading docks along the Persian Gulf, or on the Red Sea to the West, from which 500,000 to 6 million barrels a day are shipped. An attack could disable an oil processing facility, which separates the hydrocarbons from other liquids, and remove 200,000 to 400,000 barrels a day from the market.

But while a successful attack on the Middle East's oil infrastructure could rattle the markets, most analysts say it would have little impact on global supplies. "They are likely to be nuisances rather than major disruptions because there are multiple redundancies in the system," said Lawrence J. Goldstein, president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, an industry- supported group that runs a consulting business in New York. "There are other loading, storage and shipping possibilities to get oil in and out. The real trouble would be only if countries cut off oil supplies, and that won't happen."

The chances are slim — for now. But Mr. bin Laden has long made clear that his ultimate goal, more than wreaking havoc in the West, is toppling the Saud family. And Saudi Arabia would be a crucial target for anyone seeking to cut deeply into the world oil flow.

"The Saudis are the linchpin," said Ronald E. Minsk, an energy adviser to former President Bill Clinton. "It's because they have so much more oil than anybody."

Saudi Arabia exports about eight million barrels a day and is the biggest single supplier of oil to the United States, accounting for 1.7 million barrels a day. The world's No. 2 exporter, Russia, which is not a member of OPEC, exports only 2.9 million barrels. The Saudis are the only ones with enough spare oil-field capacity to call on if there is a severe disruption elsewhere. Although Saudi Arabia led the 1973 oil embargo to protest American support of Israel in the Yom Kippur War, it later stepped in to make up shortfalls of millions of barrels a day caused by conflicts in the Middle East, including the Iranian revolution, the Iran- Iraq war and the Persian Gulf war.

(Page 2 of 2)



Even over the past year, as Iraq intermittently curtailed its exports of two million barrels a day to demand changes in the United Nations sanctions against it, Saudi Arabia acted as the "swing producer," making up much of the difference.

Short of withering in the grip of a coup d'état, Saudi Arabia's oil exports could be cut if its rulers decide that they no longer can afford to support the United States-led campaign against terrorism. If the bombings kill many civilians or if the war expands quickly, the Saudis may feel that they have no choice but to veer away from the United States and reduce the flow of oil.

"The only way I see that happening is if the U.S. would continue to pick targets that would include Middle Eastern oil-producing countries — and how many it picked — and if it were done in a unilateral way," said Marianne Kah, chief economist at Conoco (news/quote). "But if it continues its multilateral approach, and includes friendly Arab countries, that won't happen."

Even in the case of state overthrow somewhere in the Middle East, she said, the flow of oil would be likely to continue. "Usually anyone in power wants oil revenues," she said, "though that may not be true for Osama bin Laden, who wants to live in a cave."

If oil supplies from the Middle East dwindle, the impact on the United States would not be acute shortages, at least for a few months. Less of its oil comes from the Persian Gulf now, and more from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela.

Instead, a sharp drop in oil supplies would set off a steep rise in prices. How long they stay high would depend on the length and the severity of any cuts. The United States has few options to increase supply and damp a price surge. Oil fields in the United States and most of the rest of the world are running close to full capacity, except, as luck would have it, in the Persian Gulf. New fields, regardless of the promise they hold, take several years to bring on stream.

"There is a big lag time between when you drill exploratory wells and when you get production," Ms. Kah said. Although the Bush administration and the oil industry have long pushed to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling, delivering oil from there would mean "expanding the oil pipeline in Alaska to handle the extra volume, and then you would be sending the oil down at the soonest in three or four years."


DURING the Persian Gulf war, the government tapped the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to make up for expected shortages. The United States now has less oil in the reserve than it did then, and it would not go as far in the event of a supply disruption, explained Mr. Goldstein of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation. In the early 1990's, the reserve, stored in underground caverns in Texas and Louisiana that can hold up to 700 million barrels, contained about 590 million barrels. At the time, that would have lasted about 82 days with no imports.

The reserve has nearly as much now — about 545 million barrels — but today that would last just 53 days, according to the Department of Energy. That is because the United States consumes more oil now, and imports much more of it. Elsewhere in the industrialized world, including countries like Germany and Japan that have no oil fields, imports have remained flat, largely because of conservation and high fuel taxes, Mr. Diwan of the Petroleum Finance Company said.

The United States, with just 5 percent of the world's population, has an enormous appetite for oil: it goes through 19 million barrels a day, or nearly one-quarter of the world total of about 76 million barrels. Imports increased about 4.5 million barrels a day in the last decade. To put it in perspective, Mr. Diwan pointed out, Germany and France together consume 4.7 million barrels a day.

The dependence on foreign oil and the lack of a backup plan, either in the form of a bolstered reserve or conservation, evolved in large part because the United States thought Saudi Arabia would again make up for any supply disruption. "In the 90's, we let a lot of things slide," said Mr. Hakes, the former Energy Department official. "We quit improving the efficiency of automobiles. We quit buying oil" for the reserve.

"It's not anything that would have made us fully independent," he said, "but every little bit helps, so you get a full slap in the face."

The price shocks from a serious disruption in oil supplies would course through every quarter of the United States economy. Prices for gasoline and jet fuel would jump, hamstringing commuters and businesses alike. Heating-oil prices would climb. The drain on people's incomes and companies' revenue would further sap a weakened economy.

Most major oil companies, like Exxon Mobil (news/quote) and Royal Dutch/Shell, and large independent refiners like Valero Energy (news/quote) get substantial amounts of oil from Saudi Arabia. Oil companies declined to comment officially on the impact of a disruption, but some industry executives said privately that if the Saudis continued to ship oil elsewhere, American oil concerns could buy it through third parties, although at higher prices. If an embargo turned global, American companies could get some oil from the petroleum reserve before that ran out.

The House of Representatives recently passed a nonbinding resolution that urges the Energy Department to procure more oil for the reserve, but it appropriates no money for the effort. That, in effect, will do nothing to fill the reserves fast. Mr. Goldstein estimated that if Congress allocated about $1.5 billion for buying oil for the reserve, an additional 60 million barrels would flow into the caverns by April — on top of the 20.7 million the reserve already expects to receive by the end of the year. Oil prices are lower than they have been in two years, and as the global economy stalls and demand drops, they could go even lower.

"We could buy the oil from OPEC, and because it is not a commercial sale, the members would not be violating their production quotas," Mr. Goldstein said. "It wouldn't push up prices, because oil demand is so low. It buys us flexibility, because none of us know what tomorrow will look like."


IF prices surge in response to a break in oil supplies, American political leaders and consumers will have to think about lifestyle changes needed to cope with supply disruptions. Most fuel used in the United States is for transportation, as people buy bigger cars and travel farther daily. If the pain is bad enough, the government may dust off old ideas like enforced carpooling or a return to the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit.

But more than anything else, consumers would be likely to react on their own. In 1981, during the Iran-Iraq war, oil prices hit $40 a barrel. By 1986, they had dropped to $12, largely because of reduced demand. "Prices go up, people consume less," Mr. Diwan said. "The market really does work."
 
If they dont give us oil, we will just have to take it.

Simple as that.
 
Can't you people at least be original? For god sakes, this madman ordered his people to be Islamic Kamikazee's and fly into the WTC for his own sick twisted ideas. Our response has nothing to do with oil this time.
 
I merely posted an article from the New York Times that supports my point of view.

Your point of view has no support...common sense is what this article is about...if you can't argue effectively,

shut up. Calling names is the mark of a prepubescent little person with minimal brain power.
 
:doublefi: How can you argue with someone who still has a child's view of world politics? Grow up beatch, the world isn't the same as Romper Room and Sesame Street :doublefi:
 
If anybody thinks that we are just in the M East for Israel's protection, you're screwed in the head.......Right now, we're scrambling to protect our pipelines in Alaska......they're vulnerable.....did you know that? On the 4th of October, somebody shot a hole in the pipeline, we lost over 285,000 gallons of oil. Then oil workers heard and saw a helicopter hovering over the pipeline for a half hour in the middle of the night......no clue as to who or why.........Valdez, is properly frightened that something might happen.....if you don't think oil is an issue with these terrorists, wake up.......I'm telling you we should get our ASS out of the M East, after we extract bin Laden and whoever, find a way to survive without their fucking oil....Stop selling them munitions...and giving them military training...simulators......(Saudi Arabia), and showing them how to fight. It has bitten us in the ass time and time again....and we still haven't stopped yet........and the people who are talking the most bshit, haven't been in the military, or been overseas, so you obviously don't know anymore than what the media tells you......
 
gymnpoppa said:
If anybody thinks that we are just in the M East for Israel's protection, you're screwed in the head.......Right now, we're scrambling to protect our pipelines in Alaska......they're vulnerable.....did you know that? On the 4th of October, somebody shot a hole in the pipeline, we lost over 285,000 gallons of oil. Then oil workers heard and saw a helicopter hovering over the pipeline for a half hour in the middle of the night......no clue as to who or why.........Valdez, is properly frightened that something might happen.....if you don't think oil is an issue with these terrorists, wake up.......I'm telling you we should get our ASS out of the M East, after we extract bin Laden and whoever, find a way to survive without their fucking oil....Stop selling them munitions...and giving them military training...simulators......(Saudi Arabia), and showing them how to fight. It has bitten us in the ass time and time again....and we still haven't stopped yet........and the people who are talking the most bshit, haven't been in the military, or been overseas, so you obviously don't know anymore than what the media tells you......


EXACTLY. Strongchick, did you ever get my pm?
 
strongchick is a moron. she made that clear a long time ago. we do have to protect our oil but oil or not we would still be in the same situation.
 
MoneyBags said:
strongchick is a moron. she made that clear a long time ago. we do have to protect our oil but oil or not we would still be in the same situation.

yes, but we wouldn't be listening to everyone telling us this is all about religion.

And based on reports I've read and posted here, we'd be in this war even if it WEREN'T for the attack, since we planned on going to Afghanistan before 9/11.

If we didn't rely on oil, if we didn't try to control what is going on in the Middle East...maybe we wouldn't have been attacked in the first place.

America isn't in the clear on responsibility for this...
 
strongchick said:


yes, but we wouldn't be listening to everyone telling us this is all about religion.

And based on reports I've read and posted here, we'd be in this war even if it WEREN'T for the attack, since we planned on going to Afghanistan before 9/11.

If we didn't rely on oil, if we didn't try to control what is going on in the Middle East...maybe we wouldn't have been attacked in the first place.

America isn't in the clear on responsibility for this...
your a fucking stupid bitch seriously.
A) We'll never fucking know if we'd be going to war regardless of 9/11 with afghanistan now will we.
B) as far as im concerned it'd be justfiable because this isnt Osama's first strike why dont u dig up some articales about the other shit he has done
c) Ya we rely on oil whats your point so does everyone else on the planet.
d) We support Israel because its the right thing to do. IF we're gonna support any one it should be them. IF not we shouldnt help anyone in the world and go back to isolationism.
e)i can't believe you have the nerve to say its the US fault that some ragheads decided to hijack fucking planes and use them as torpedos on innocent civilians, god your a moron.
F) please don't express your thoughts with people in reality because i could easily see someone slapping you and putting you in your place.
 
Gorlim said:

your a fucking stupid bitch seriously.
A) We'll never fucking know if we'd be going to war regardless of 9/11 with afghanistan now will we.
B) as far as im concerned it'd be justfiable because this isnt Osama's first strike why dont u dig up some articales about the other shit he has done
c) Ya we rely on oil whats your point so does everyone else on the planet.
d) We support Israel because its the right thing to do. IF we're gonna support any one it should be them. IF not we shouldnt help anyone in the world and go back to isolationism.
e)i can't believe you have the nerve to say its the US fault that some ragheads decided to hijack fucking planes and use them as torpedos on innocent civilians, god your a moron.
F) please don't express your thoughts with people in reality because i could easily see someone slapping you and putting you in your place.


What is wrong with you? You must be 16 or something. You missed my post with a link to a major news site that quoted the plans from the mouths of senior Washington officials about planning to go to Afghanistan in war mode in October way before September.

How do you know what is right? You nor I know the whole truth.

I didn't SAY it was our fault we were attacked...just saying all this could be prevented.

And no one would dare slap me. My presence commands respect, brat. You are so very young.

I quit...can't have a decent discussion with morons.

By the way...we all KNOW what Osama has done...funny how what we've done is not nearly as publicized.
 
strongchick said:
Your point of view has no support...common sense is what this article is about...if you can't argue effectively,

A man orders 20 or so of his subjects to train for several years to fly commercial airplanes into tall buildings and kill 5,000 people, but our war is about oil?

Common nonsense is more like it.

-Warik
 
Warik said:


A man orders 20 or so of his subjects to train for several years to fly commercial airplanes into tall buildings and kill 5,000 people, but our war is about oil?

Common nonsense is more like it.

-Warik

People kill for less. Oil has made the Bush's as well as many Saudis extremely rich.

Can you refute that? The relationship is clearly explained in the article. The war is about bin Laden's manipulation of religion in his pursuit of control over oil...which he hasn't been able to get, supposedly, because of the US.


The article states that the Saudis are on our side for now, however...

"...But Mr. bin Laden has long made clear that his ultimate goal, more than wreaking havoc in the West, is toppling the Saud family. And Saudi Arabia would be a crucial target for anyone seeking to cut deeply into the world oil flow. "

This whole war thing is based on desire to control oil...terrorism is a part of this larger problem. Not really new insight...just a different angle than the mainstream media. Bloodthirsty or not, we are aiding our own demise if we think we can continue to be a superpower and still rely on Middle East oil. Of course, the oil refinery business doesn't want us to turn away from oil, for obvious reasons...so fight we must. Oh yeah...we just happen to get hit with the biggest terrorist attack at the same time...

I think you all would agree...you are just too blinded by revenge to see this right now.

I think that is logical reasoning...refute if you must...but name calling is ridiculous and beneath normal thinking people.

I know it is painful to deal with...but it is there for you to analyze...you don't have to accept that America is just a country...that's it, that's all.
 
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Strongchick you are really a weakchick. Do you have an origianal thought between your ears? I know the void is large and black, but try real hard.

Our main reason and so far the only reason we are attacking Afghanistan is the Talibans refusal to turn over laden, his followers and destroy the terrorists training camps.

Now, Desert Storm was about oil. I was for that as I am for what we are doing now. It is people like you that make our soldiers and Marines reallly wonder why they even bother defending this country. Then the remember, it is for freedom. The freedom to voice your opinion even if it causes you to insert you foot sideways in your mouth

I would suggest you stop spewing regurgitated liberal tripe which is what the times is all about, graduate highschool, join the military and when you return 4 years later, let us know what you have learned.

PS, don't FUCKING BLAME OUR COUNTRY FOR GETTING SIX THOUSAND OF ITS PEOPLE AND OTHERS SLAUGHTERED YOU CAMEL HUMPING BITCH.
 
I served my country as a Navy enlisted, chump. That's where I learned what hypocrites Americans are.

I love my country, just not the hypocrisy.
 
Well then try thinking a little for yourself. The times is not the place to get very credible evidence. Not even middle of the road.

We had our country invaded, period, game on! Get it?
 
chesty said:
Well then try thinking a little for yourself. The times is not the place to get very credible evidence. Not even middle of the road.

We had our country invaded, period, game on! Get it?


okay. where to get credible evidence? What journal, newspaper, etc., do you rely on for evidence? I'll bet I can find the same information in any of them...what I have shown here in this article is common knowledge, not conjecture...

Things are not as simple as you wish them to be. Fighting isn't always the answer. I agree we should retaliate...but our country is complicit in the bullshit. You've got an oil man in office..you think anything other than oil is his motivation?

Please. Get beyond the simple attack. It was bad, it hurt. We should extract bin Laden, kill him, and get control of our OWN energy resources. Otherwise, this WILL happen again. Oh...

but you WANT YOUR children fighting, and their children too, right?
 
"...But Mr. bin Laden has long made clear that his ultimate goal, more than wreaking havoc in the West, is toppling the Saud family. And Saudi Arabia would be a crucial target for anyone seeking to cut deeply into the world oil flow. "

If Bin Laden wanted to take over Saudi and cut deeply into the oil flow then why did he attack us? it makes no sense. By attacking us all he did was trigger a counter attack. This counter attack would only weaken his forces making it even harder for him to overthrow Saudi. If he wanted oil he would have already made his move for it.
 
The goal also of his extremist views is world domination. Does Hitler , Earth 1933 sound familiar?
 
oil or not doesnt matter now.. does it? I mean even if everything your saying is true strongchick all that was thrown out the window 9/11 thats what is important so stfu.
 
WTF!?!!?

Damn, you guys are fucking nuts!

She's only trying to point out a few things.

The religious-like patriotism fervor on this board is ridiculous, and a little scary...I was talking to a friend of mine who also posts here ealier, he's a veteran, and was worried about posting some info detailing some things because he did not want to be called a traitor and a non-patriot.

You can't even question our government or Bush on this board without being told to 'get the fuck out' or 'shut the fuck up.'

Doesn't anyone else think it's a bit scary when reporters who voice dissent against the US government are getting fired? Or the government is 'suggesting' what the media does and does not show?

Doesn't anyone wonder about this blind patriotism?

Why the fuck are you people constantly using personal attacks on this woman? If what she says is so ludicrous, why are you getting so upset? Why not laugh it off?
 
strongchick said:


yes, but we wouldn't be listening to everyone telling us this is all about religion.

And based on reports I've read and posted here, we'd be in this war even if it WEREN'T for the attack, since we planned on going to Afghanistan before 9/11.

If we didn't rely on oil, if we didn't try to control what is going on in the Middle East...maybe we wouldn't have been attacked in the first place.

America isn't in the clear on responsibility for this...

1. the only person that attaches religion to this is you.. this has nothing to do with religion.
2. we may have been involved in a war in afghanistan even if the wtc tragedy didnt happen, but im sure it has more to do with afghanistan harboring and supporting terrorists that have been attacking the u.s. abroad and on our soil for the PAST TEN YEARS.. but no, you cant see that all you want to do is promote your dumb conspiracy theories.
3.yeah, sure if we didnt rely on oil we wouldnt be in this mess. youre living a fantasy world where every thing is electric, even planes. also, bin laden is a mad man and a extremist, if he wasnt pissed at america for being in the middle east, he would be pissed at too many americans being in europe and then he would be pissed at too many americans being in america. bin laden was/is a multi-millionaire, and instead of helping afghanistan by building shools, hospitals and other helpfull things, he chooses to finance death of innocents and plunge his beloved country into one of the worst scenarios they will every experience. this is further proof of his insanity. if there really is all this oil in afghanistan like you claim there is, dont you think bin laden would have financed the drilling operations to bring more money to his cause?

you really have a flawed sense of logic. you promot vague theories that have minimal evidence to back them up. ill quote you something carl sagan said that makes a lot of sense and really applies to you:"extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence." also you ruin any credibility and display that youre easily brainwashed and believe stupid things that everyone knows isnt true when you say things like "nothing bad happened during clintons term."

you also said"but our country is complicit in the bullshit. You've got an oil man in office..you think anything other than oil is his motivation? " yeah, im sure 4,500 innocent deaths cause by an extremist millionaire had nothing to do with it. even if what you say it true about the oil and what not(snicker), im sure the wtc attack would have nothing to do with our retaliation.
 
strongchick said:


Please. Get beyond the simple attack. It was bad, it hurt. We should extract bin Laden, kill him, and get control of our OWN energy resources. Otherwise, this WILL happen again. Oh...

but you WANT YOUR children fighting, and their children too, right?


simple attack? why dont you just go ahead and piss on the graves of the people that died in the wtc on 9/11/01? once again your thinking on oil is flawed. without a cheap supply of oil for the u.s. the cost of living would sky rocket and we would probably sink into the worst reccession/depression it has every seen. but you would rather have hundreds of thousands starve in the streets of america than have it flex its influence in the middle east.
 
strongchick said:


People kill for less. Oil has made the Bush's as well as many Saudis extremely rich.

Can you refute that? The relationship is clearly explained in the article. The war is about bin Laden's manipulation of religion in his pursuit of control over oil...which he hasn't been able to get, supposedly, because of the US.


The article states that the Saudis are on our side for now, however...

"...But Mr. bin Laden has long made clear that his ultimate goal, more than wreaking havoc in the West, is toppling the Saud family. And Saudi Arabia would be a crucial target for anyone seeking to cut deeply into the world oil flow. "

This whole war thing is based on desire to control oil...terrorism is a part of this larger problem. Not really new insight...just a different angle than the mainstream media. Bloodthirsty or not, we are aiding our own demise if we think we can continue to be a superpower and still rely on Middle East oil. Of course, the oil refinery business doesn't want us to turn away from oil, for obvious reasons...so fight we must. Oh yeah...we just happen to get hit with the biggest terrorist attack at the same time...

I think you all would agree...you are just too blinded by revenge to see this right now.

I think that is logical reasoning...refute if you must...but name calling is ridiculous and beneath normal thinking people.

I know it is painful to deal with...but it is there for you to analyze...you don't have to accept that America is just a country...that's it, that's all.

oil has made many people rich? so what, a lot of things have made many people rich, like cars, construction,writting stupid conspiracy theory books for gullibale people like you to believe in.
so you honestly think that without oil the u.s. could still stay a super power? yeah i hear the airforce is really coming along on those electric f15s. as for the name calling, it is funny to me that you ridicule people for calling you names when in many of your posts you have been the first to resort to name calling, once again a sign of your hypocrisy, not americas.
people refute your so called evidence because it is not solid like you think.
 
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Every war in history is always about 2 issues. 1) A way of live that is under attack and is seeking self preservation and 2) Economic issues. So what, to seperate these into distinct parts is superfluse and a waist of time.

You cannot live your life in a certain manner without considering how you are going to pay for it. That's just the way it is. Yes I believe it is in part about oil, its also about preserving our freedoms as well. You cannot seperate the two, our way of life in this country has a life blood that is oil, period. Come up with alternative fuels and then it will be about kicking ass over the Isreal issue. Either way...were in war.
 
WODIN said:
Every war in history is always about 2 issues. 1) A way of live that is under attack and is seeking self preservation and 2) Economic issues. So what, to seperate these into distinct parts is superfluse and a waist of time.

You cannot live your life in a certain manner without considering how you are going to pay for it. That's just the way it is. Yes I believe it is in part about oil, its also about preserving our freedoms as well. You cannot seperate the two, our way of life in this country has a life blood that is oil, period. Come up with alternative fuels and then it will be about kicking ass over the Isreal issue. Either way...were in war.

very good point, but shell fail to see it. shell take everything offered to her from living in america, but she will condem it at the same time. once again another display of her hypocrisy, not americas. with that being said, i guess we could trace all the troubles in the middle east and the wtc tragedy back strongchicks hyposcrisy. yes, strongchick is single handedly responsible for all the worlds troubles, hows that for a conspiracy theory?
 
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Its impressive the quantity of extremists this board has... Sometimes i think it`s 4 or 5 peeps with 20 log in names, because they all say the same and never accept different opinions... The USA are not innocent in this whole tragedy... I agree with the retaliation, but things aren´t as simple as some of you say...
 
strongchick said:
I merely posted an article from the New York Times that supports my point of view.

Your point of view has no support...common sense is what this article is about...if you can't argue effectively,

shut up. Calling names is the mark of a prepubescent little person with minimal brain power.

You are an idiot.
 
The Varnsen said:
Its impressive the quantity of extremists this board has... Sometimes i think it`s 4 or 5 peeps with 20 log in names, because they all say the same and never accept different opinions... The USA are not innocent in this whole tragedy... I agree with the retaliation, but things aren´t as simple as some of you say...

so one form of extremism is more acceptable to you? so strongchick implying that everything that happens in the u.s. is because of oil is a better opinion and she doesnt have to accept different opinions? does claiming that this war is only about oil, make it more complicated than our "simple" views? 1.the way i see it she is the extremist here 2.thats just plain hypocritical of you 3.thats just another way of simplifying a complicated situation.
 
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I didn´t say i agree with strongchick... What i said is that you peeps should also respect opinions different from yours...
 
Hey Strongchick

Do you have a problem about going to war over oil? I don't. Oil, unfortunately, is vital for America to function. If the Arabs cut off our oil supply that would be an act of war, and we should respond accordingly. This war against Afghanistan has nothing to do about oil!! We are at war because over 6,000 of our fellow Americans were slaughtered by satanic monsters. These deaths must be avenged in the most violent and punishing way possible.
 
strongchick, you are truly the epitome of the dumb bitch- congrats. You're just like all the other dime a dozen whiners in this country who think their shit doesn't smell. You learned about the world from watching sesame street and you've never gotten beyond more than a child-like understanding of what life is. Life isn't just or fair. If we didn't kick ass, someone would be kicking our ass- watch the nature channel bitch, you think we are any different? As for muslims who don't fully and wholly condemn terrorists without condition- your time here is limited.

And strongchick, if you happen to be one of the people who recieve a letter with a white powder in it from some of these terrorist shits- it probably nothing, just a gift. Open and inhale deeply :doublefi:
 
Re: Hey Strongchick

BigGuns2 said:
Do you have a problem about going to war over oil? .

It isn't the oil I have a problem with..it is the dishonesty of our government...I may be wrong, of course...but to think that I _might_ be close in my assumptions that oil is the basis for this fight irritates me because we are being lied to..

Why not just SAY our economy depends on oil and we will take it from whoever has it?
 
this is the least original fucking idea i have ever heard. shut the fuck up about the oil already. how does that affect anything?
 
BOT said:
WE ARE AT WAR BECAUSE OF THE BELIEF SYSTEMS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS WHO SEEK WORLD WAR 3 AND A NEW WORLD ORDER!!!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE SO OUT OF TOUCH? READ!!!

Duh...that's the easiest way to get knee-jerk reaction from war hungry males.

We were going over there to attack long before 9/11, and bin Laden just beat us to it.

Touche. Now we must kick his ass. We are not REALLY retaliating...just doing some late catchup.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4264545,00.html

I prefer to fight when I understand what I am fighting for. If I'm fighting to TAKE, fine...I'll do that for my country. But don't bullshit me about religious crazies. That's for children. Religion has little to do with this whole thing, really.

Bin Laden saw a chance for pre-emptive strike... Wouldn't it be nice for him too if he could grab all the oil and charge us $144/barrel like he wishes, and see our economy crumble while he becomes powerful?

Think about it.
 
strongchick said:


Duh...that's the easiest way to get knee-jerk reaction from war hungry males.

We were going over there to attack long before 9/11, and bin Laden just beat us to it.

Touche. Now we must kick his ass. We are not REALLY retaliating...just doing some late catchup.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4264545,00.html

I prefer to fight when I understand what I am fighting for. If I'm fighting to TAKE, fine...I'll do that for my country. But don't bullshit me about religious crazies. That's for children. Religion has little to do with this whole thing, really.

Bin Laden saw a chance for pre-emptive strike... Wouldn't it be nice for him too if he could grab all the oil and charge us $144/barrel like he wishes, and see our economy crumble while he becomes powerful?

Think about it.

so what are you saying, bin laden isnt an insane person attaching himself to a religion to further his insane cause? also, youre the only one that seems to be claiming that this is about religion. you really have problems and are missing the big picture here. if it is anything at all, oil is a secondary reason for this war. i really wonder if youre just saying this stuff to get a reaction, cuz only an idiot would say things like "it was a pre-emptive strike." i guess youre forgetting that bin laden has been attacking the u.s. abroad and on our own soil FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS!!! his attacks have gotten progressively worse and we have waited to long to RETALIATE!! yes, it is retaliation. not just for the wtc tragedy, but also for ten years of attacks against the u.s..

ISNT THE FACT THAT 4,500 PEOPLE JUST DIED BECAUSE OF ATTACKS FUNDED BY BIN LADEN, A PERSON THAT IS BEING PROTECTED BY THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN REASON ENOUGH TO ATTACK?!?! HOW CAN YOU NOT "UNDERSTAND" THAT? LIKE I SAID BEFORE, WHY DONT YOU JUST GO AHEAD AND PISS ON THE GRAVES OF THOSE THAT DIED?
 
strongchick said:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4264545,00.html

Bin Laden saw a chance for pre-emptive strike... Wouldn't it be nice for him too if he could grab all the oil and charge us $144/barrel like he wishes, and see our economy crumble while he becomes powerful?

Think about it.

strongchick, could you explain to me how bin laden would be able to charge $144/barrel?

if bin laden did control every oil reserve in the world (:rolleyes: ) and crumbled our economy. how can we avoid this? by reducing our oil consumption dependency?
 
So much for the idea that roid rage is a myth. Strongchick is asking some legitimate questions that are already being considered in the mainstream media. What the hell is wrong with that?

Where are all you guys who are always cautioning against name-calling right now? It seems that this is only a concern when the person you're insulting bites back.
 
musclebrains said:
So much for the idea that roid rage is a myth. Strongchick is asking some legitimate questions that are already being considered in the mainstream media. What the hell is wrong with that?

Where are all you guys who are always cautioning against name-calling right now? It seems that this is only a concern when the person you're insulting bites back.

she isnt asking questions, she is telling us that anyone who thinks this war is about anything but oil is a brainwashed fool. if you look back on her previous posts, several times she has been the one to resort to name calling. hell, in a couple of her posts she will call someone a name then a few posts later on that same subject she criticizes someone for calling her name, how is that for hypocrisy? she has no idea what she is talking about and she is a hypocrite, so that ruins any credibility she might have had. she actually said"at least no terrorist attacks happened during clintons term." she conveniently forgets about the first wtc attack, the attack on the u.s.s. cole and the attack on the u.s. embassies because it serves her purpose. she doesnt realize that this conflict has been ten years in the making and the u.s. has waited long enough to take action. she also completely disgraces the memories of the people that died in the wtc tragedy with her careless comments and anti-american propaganda. you should at least look at her previous posts before you stick up for her.
 
she is incredibly ignorant. we don't want you to fight because your useless. The best you could do would be to stand infront of someone to take a bullet or leave the country, people like u ruin it.
 
strongchick said:


Duh...that's the easiest way to get knee-jerk reaction from war hungry males.


so i guess the easiest way to get a knee-jerk from hypocritical liberals is to claim that the only reason a republican is sending us to war with afghanistan is because he needs more oil?

also, i am far from war hungry. i would rather their be peace and no chance of my mom or 11 year old sister be hurt do to a terrorist attack or war, but unlike your dumbass, i see that there is a need to retaliate and things will only get worse if we dont.
 
Does anyone know how much oil we ACTUALLY get from the middle east??? Strongchick do you KNOW?? Or do you just recite liberal blather from the Pravda (Times). I know it so you do a little research and tell me what the % is. When you see it you will be SHOCKED. We could certainly do without middle eastern oil.
 
Ok since she won't get this from the Times........... the % of US IMPORTS that come from the middle east is less than 20%. Our TOTAL oil usuage that comes from the middle east is less than 10%. We only import about 43% of our oil which is a HELL of alot less than most other countries.
 
It doesn't make any difference about percentages here on the oil, it's the main reason we can't bring our ass out of the M E, and none of you know anymore than what you've read. And we've also been selling arms (Billions to Saudi, Israel, Iran, Iraq etc) to M E countries for years. Another reason why we don't want to leave the area....some rich munitions/corporate companies with their money in Washington, are too greedy to be patriotic Americans and leave. Most of you guys just learned that we were giving aid, or have given aid/weapons to almost every country in the M East. Pitting countries against countries, well, the shitty deeds we've been committing for the last 30 years, have been the basis of the intense hatred from these people. If Reagan had been more honest in his dealings with the countries in the M East, maybe we could have avoided the terrorist attacks that started the whole mess of problems. OF which, he did NOTHING about! The Arabs who committed bombing of the Marine barracks (241 killed), have never been caught. So don't act like we kick ass when somebody jacks with us. Check your history, we've done nothing but give these Arabs confidence to attack us!
 
talonracer said:
Ok since she won't get this from the Times........... the % of US IMPORTS that come from the middle east is less than 20%. Our TOTAL oil usuage that comes from the middle east is less than 10%. We only import about 43% of our oil which is a HELL of alot less than most other countries.

But we want more....check out this link for more details...which also has more great info for support of my point of view....

http://tompaine.com/news/2001/10/11/index.html
MISSING THE OIL STORY

<excerpt>

"Why can we assume that global businessmen like Bush Senior and Jim Baker care about who runs Afghanistan and NOT just because it's home base for lethal anti-Americans? Because it also happens to be situated in the middle of that perennial vital national interest -- a region with abundant oil. By 2050, Central Asia will account for more than 80 percent of our oil. On September 10, an industry publication, Oil and Gas Journal, reported that Central Asia represents one of the world's last great frontiers for geological survey and analysis, "offering opportunities for investment in the discovery, production, transportation, and refining of enormous quantities of oil and gas resources."
 
Originally posted by BOT
Oil is part of it but to say it is 100 percent is wrong.

I don't believe oil is 100% of the reason for war...obviously, the terrorists (we really don't know if it is bin Laden, by the way) created impetus...


Strongchick, you are the type of person who, if you lived in the 1940s would be saying, oh the Germans aren't that bad, blah blah bvlah, lets just stay oujt of it. Letas just have peace. Look they are poor and we screwed them over after world war I and they are european whites just like me, blah blah blah. You would find any little detail that justified there cause, right or wrong, and then say hey we got no right to join in the war.


I'm black. Hitler had an army and WAS the STATE. bin Laden has no state, no true army.

War is fine...I don't care that we are over there in war-mode...I do care that we are killing innocent people for 'revenge' when it is possibly for oil.
 
youre black, so that explains why youre so brainwashed to the liberal cause. we do know that bin laden is responsible for this. bin laden may not be a state or a true army but he does have the support of the government in afghanistan, dumbass. killing innocent people? no one in afghanistan is innocent, they had a month to leave the country and they didnt. that doesnt matter to you though, you would rather innocent americans die, fucking anti american communist.

hey did you know gore, whom you support, is being sued for having a "low negroe tolerance"? he apparently didnt like having black secret service agents around him. guess what, clinton who is so important to the black community had no problem playing golf at a country club in florida that is notorious for discriminating against jews and blacks. bush was scheduled to play at the same country club but when he found out about their racial intolerance he canceled.
 
rushx79 said:

hey did you know gore, whom you support, is being sued for having a "low negroe tolerance"? he apparently didnt like having black secret service agents around him. guess what, clinton who is so important to the black community had no problem playing golf at a country club in florida that is notorious for discriminating against jews and blacks. bush was scheduled to play at the same country club but when he found out about their racial intolerance he canceled.

I don't care about liberal vs. conservative. I watch and enjoy O'Reilly on Fox, for example.

I dont care about any issues much, except that I remain employed at good wages. Republicans always have trouble with this, because laissez faire means corporations shit on people. Other than that, all politicians suck.

Everybody is prejudiced. I hate everybody equally, and I don't give a shit if Gore or Clinton likes me or not, as long as I can rent videos, save for my 401K, and by more memory for my computers without feeling the pain.

Nuff said about this...back to the subject.
 
strongchick said:


I don't care about liberal vs. conservative. I watch and enjoy O'Reilly on Fox, for example.

I dont care about any issues much, except that I remain employed at good wages. Republicans always have trouble with this, because laissez faire means corporations shit on people. Other than that, all politicians suck.

Everybody is prejudiced. I hate everybody equally, and I don't give a shit if Gore or Clinton likes me or not, as long as I can rent videos, save for my 401K, and by more memory for my computers without feeling the pain.

Nuff said about this...back to the subject.
u'd feel differently if your family members were killed by terrorist. your a hypocrite has u have proved b4 and an idiot. So as long as nothing is happening to you right now your happy. Just wait..
 
oh yeah, what does this have to do with the subject? it shows you are an idiot that has no idea what youre talking about. no proof that bin laden was behind this? i think his threat to CONTINUING causing american planes to rain from the sky is prooh enough. anyway, there is more prood, go to tony blair's web site. bin laden isnt a state or army? well dumbass he has the support of the afghanistan state and army. isnt that enough? for your info hitler didnt start out as a state. he was a crazy shithead with insane beliefs like bin laden. its funny that you choose my statements about gore and clinton to respond to out of all the the others i have made.
 
strongchick said:


I don't care about liberal vs. conservative. I watch and enjoy O'Reilly on Fox, for example.

I dont care about any issues much, except that I remain employed at good wages. Republicans always have trouble with this, because laissez faire means corporations shit on people. Other than that, all politicians suck.

Everybody is prejudiced. I hate everybody equally, and I don't give a shit if Gore or Clinton likes me or not, as long as I can rent videos, save for my 401K, and by more memory for my computers without feeling the pain.

Nuff said about this...back to the subject.

im also willing to bet you have a special/stronger hatred for republicans because youre beloved gore lost. so the economy is only good during liberal presidents terms? youve already been proved wrong on this, showing once again you have no idea what youre talking about. also, if you were educated the littlest bit you would understand that clinton DID NOTHING FOR THE ECONOMY except come into office during the technology boom. i actually thank him for DOING NOTHING, its the best thing he couldnt have done. youre a idiot and like the rest of the black community you support liberals and believe that republicans are evil white folk out to steal yo dollahs. i bet you think its bushs fault that so many people were executed in texas. i bet you think bush personally executed everyone too. what does that have to with the subject? just proving my point that you are a dumbass with minimal education about the subjects youre talking about, yet you feel the need to get up on your soap box and preach about the evils of the governmebt in office. where were you when clinton was selling nuclear secerets to china for his own financial gain?
 
rushx79 said:
youre black, so that explains why youre so brainwashed to the liberal cause. we do know that bin laden is responsible for this. bin laden may not be a state or a true army but he does have the support of the government in afghanistan, dumbass. killing innocent people? no one in afghanistan is innocent, they had a month to leave the country and they didnt. that doesnt matter to you though, you would rather innocent americans die, fucking anti american communist.

hey did you know gore, whom you support, is being sued for having a "low negroe tolerance"? he apparently didnt like having black secret service agents around him. guess what, clinton who is so important to the black community had no problem playing golf at a country club in florida that is notorious for discriminating against jews and blacks. bush was scheduled to play at the same country club but when he found out about their racial intolerance he canceled.

Who the fuck are you to make a Punk-assed comment that because somebody's black they're brainwashed to a liberal cause? YOu are a stupid fuck! You haven't seen a bit of proof other than what you've been told by the media/government. And he though he probably is the root of the problem, he's not the whole problem. You pussy-ass sissies talk a lot of shit to a woman, but I've never heard any of you resort to this shit when the discussion involves guys, and it doesn't matter who started it, you should be man enough to stop it, instead of continuing it on like you're kids. Which one of you lost somebody to a terrorist attack? Now, I know your stupid line of thinking will assume that I'm taking sides, so for that Fuck You. It has nothing to do with that. Chick, you can't call these pussies names, of any sort, because they will resort to shit that has nothing to do with the topics. If you want to discuss your skeptical views, you should talk to others who don't need to bring your race, or political standing as the reason you think the way you do. Frackal, Spongebob, BO-Cephus, Nature Boy, Chesty, are a few who will offer their views, and generally respect your comments....and there are quite a few others also I didn't mention. Just check the threads......I know I can count on one hand the ones who have served in the military on this thread. You dumbasses should be questioning why our government hasn't responded to the attacks of the last 30 years against American people overseas, but then again, most of you weren't even out of diapers when that was going on.
 
rushx79 said:


im also willing to bet you have a special/stronger hatred for republicans because youre beloved gore lost. so the economy is only good during liberal presidents terms? youve already been proved wrong on this, showing once again you have no idea what youre talking about. also, if you were educated the littlest bit you would understand that clinton DID NOTHING FOR THE ECONOMY except come into office during the technology boom. i actually thank him for DOING NOTHING, its the best thing he couldnt have done. youre a idiot and like the rest of the black community you support liberals and believe that republicans are evil white folk out to steal yo dollahs. i bet you think its bushs fault that so many people were executed in texas. i bet you think bush personally executed everyone too. what does that have to with the subject? just proving my point that you are a dumbass with minimal education about the subjects youre talking about, yet you feel the need to get up on your soap box and preach about the evils of the governmebt in office. where were you when clinton was selling nuclear secerets to china for his own financial gain?


Where were you when Reagan was selling arms to Iran, Iraq...then lying to the American public about it. Where were you when he made a secret arms deal to release the hostages being held in Iran? I don't give a fuck about Clinton, or any other politician, I'd vote for Jesse Ventura if he would run. But you obviously don't know what you're talking about either!
 
gymnpoppa said:


Who the fuck are you to make a Punk-assed comment that because somebody's black they're brainwashed to a liberal cause? YOu are a stupid fuck! You haven't seen a bit of proof other than what you've been told by the media/government. And he though he probably is the root of the problem, he's not the whole problem. You pussy-ass sissies talk a lot of shit to a woman, but I've never heard any of you resort to this shit when the discussion involves guys, and it doesn't matter who started it, you should be man enough to stop it, instead of continuing it on like you're kids. Which one of you lost somebody to a terrorist attack? Now, I know your stupid line of thinking will assume that I'm taking sides, so for that Fuck You. It has nothing to do with that. Chick, you can't call these pussies names, of any sort, because they will resort to shit that has nothing to do with the topics. If you want to discuss your skeptical views, you should talk to others who don't need to bring your race, or political standing as the reason you think the way you do. Frackal, Spongebob, BO-Cephus, Nature Boy, Chesty, are a few who will offer their views, and generally respect your comments....and there are quite a few others also I didn't mention. Just check the threads......I know I can count on one hand the ones who have served in the military on this thread. You dumbasses should be questioning why our government hasn't responded to the attacks of the last 30 years against American people overseas, but then again, most of you weren't even out of diapers when that was going on.

i call it how i see it. by the way, she was the first person to bring race/religion into the subject.she has pointed numerous times that she is black so her view counts more. sissy ass pussies because i havnt argued with a man the same? well first off, youre wrong, i have argued with men the same on here. second, no one on here says as blatantly stupid things like her, hell, ryhanh has more sensible views than her. third she is presenting her arguement on a public forum, why shouldnt i be able to dispute it? also, i have questioned why we didnt respond to the attacks in the last 30 years, i have pointed out to her that this has been a long time coming. yet she doesnt see that, all she sees is evil republicans trying to steal oil from poor oppressed people like her. i suggest you read more of someones posts before you condem/support them.
 
gymnpoppa said:



Where were you when Reagan was selling arms to Iran, Iraq...then lying to the American public about it. Where were you when he made a secret arms deal to release the hostages being held in Iran? I don't give a fuck about Clinton, or any other politician, I'd vote for Jesse Ventura if he would run. But you obviously don't know what you're talking about either!

actually i was just a kid then. also, like i said, clinton did it for his own financial gain, you can hardly compare that to reagan negotiating hostage releases.
 
also, i never said i supported reagan or said i was a conservative. i was pointing out flaws in her way of thinking. flaws like "no terrorist attacks happened during clintons terms" and "clinton was a good and honorable president." she is the typical liberal hypocrite, and that is why i give her such a hard time.
 
rushx79 said:


i call it how i see it. by the way, she was the first person to bring race/religion into the subject.she has pointed numerous times that she is black so her view counts more. sissy ass pussies because i havnt argued with a man the same? well first off, youre wrong, i have argued with men the same on here. second, no one on here says as blatantly stupid things like her, hell, ryhanh has more sensible views than her. third she is presenting her arguement on a public forum, why shouldnt i be able to dispute it? also, i have questioned why we didnt respond to the attacks in the last 30 years, i have pointed out to her that this has been a long time coming. yet she doesnt see that, all she sees is evil republicans trying to steal oil from poor oppressed people like her. i suggest you read more of someones posts before you condem/support them.

NO I MERELY ANSWERED SOMEONE'S QUESTION REGARDING MY WHITENESS AND BELIEFS OF HITLER, SO I CORRECTED THEM BY SAYING I WAS BLACK, THEN MOVED ON TO ANOTHER SUBJECT ENTIRELY WITHOUT BELABORING THE POINT.

RACE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POINT OF VIEW, PERIOD. PLEASE DROP IT.
 
strongchick said:


NO I MERELY ANSWERED SOMEONE'S QUESTION REGARDING MY WHITENESS AND BELIEFS OF HITLER, SO I CORRECTED THEM BY SAYING I WAS BLACK, THEN MOVED ON TO ANOTHER SUBJECT ENTIRELY WITHOUT BELABORING THE POINT.

RACE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POINT OF VIEW, PERIOD. PLEASE DROP IT.

actually im not talking about the comment you made in this post, im talking about comments you made in a different post.
 
rushx79 said:


actually i was just a kid then. also, like i said, clinton did it for his own financial gain, you can hardly compare that to reagan negotiating hostage releases.

rushx79, you're right, you can dispute anything, and I'm sure you have.....and that's a damn lie if people don't post stupid shit on here, childish, shit. I don't even need to name anybody....anybody can present some dumb arguments, may not be dumb to them, or you, she started it? wtf does that mean? You're more of a man/person if you don't resort to the same tactics. And I can compare this to Reagan, because our stated policy was no negotiations with terrorists. This came from Reagan, (I'm sure you know this). Then he makes a trade or attempts to make a trade for the hostages, and when it falls through, and it comes out. He lies about it. Though he later admitted he lied, He is responsible for the passive attitude our government has adopted toward terrorism. He did not catch the perps who killed the 241 Marines in Beirut, they have never been caught, (I'm sure you knew all of this) I was in the M East when all of this went down. None of the American public knew very much about it when I called home, or wrote home. Totally different picture over here. At the same time, Reagan was selling arms to Iran, Iraq and a few other "allies in the M East. Billions....also at this time, Iraq's labs were given the anthrax for testing. I'm sure you know all of this as well. Our policy of being buddy with countries over there SUCKS! Especially when none of them (Israel, Saudi Arabia included) give a fuck about us, as we don't give a fuck about them. as long as we have access to their oil, or keep a pulse on the cost of the oil. Now, if we couldn't wear anything related to the US when we were in ports, or cities over there then, obviously something in our policy is fucked. Whether you admit it or not, I know from experience something is way wrong. I say it all the time, we need to bring our asses from over there, after we find whoever's responsible for the attacks, and stay the fuck out of the area. Let them fight and kill each other. Stop giving them weapons, training, money, and shit, because we are getting the shit turned right back on us. And only now, are the American people even slightly aware of what's been going on. Now, explain to me what else you see, I can respect your views.

Post a link proving that Clinton did what you said. I've never seen proof of this, and obviously you got something.
 
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rushx79 said:


actually im not talking about the comment you made in this post, im talking about comments you made in a different post.

true debate allows for isolation of issues. I'm trying to discuss this issue sanely without introducing race, because as in other threads, the subject gets lost in racial epithets and expletives.
 
rushx79 said:
also, i never said i supported reagan or said i was a conservative. i was pointing out flaws in her way of thinking. flaws like "no terrorist attacks happened during clintons terms" and "clinton was a good and honorable president." she is the typical liberal hypocrite, and that is why i give her such a hard time.

Hey man, don't let my posts put you anywhere you aren't. I'm done commenting here....


gorlim, I'll leave you to your limited posts. Nothing you've said indicates you've got anything to add other than name-calling. You need the net, for your protection.
 
gymnpoppa said:


rushx79, you're right, you can dispute anything, and I'm sure you have.....and that's a damn lie if people don't post stupid shit on here, childish, shit. I don't even need to name anybody....anybody can present some dumb arguments, may not be dumb to them, or you, she started it? wtf does that mean? You're more of a man/person if you don't resort to the same tactics. And I can compare this to Reagan, because our stated policy was no negotiations with terrorists. This came from Reagan, (I'm sure you know this). Then he makes a trade or attempts to make a trade for the hostages, and when it falls through, and it comes out. He lies about it. Though he later admitted he lied, He is responsible for the passive attitude our government has adopted toward terrorism. He did not catch the perps who killed the 241 Marines in Beirut, they have never been caught, (I'm sure you knew all of this) I was in the M East when all of this went down. None of the American public knew very much about it when I called home, or wrote home. Totally different picture over here. At the same time, Reagan was selling arms to Iran, Iraq and a few other "allies in the M East. Billions....also at this time, Iraq's labs were given the anthrax for testing. I'm sure you know all of this as well. Our policy of being buddy with countries over there SUCKS! Especially when none of them (Israel, Saudi Arabia included) give a fuck about us, as we don't give a fuck about them. as long as we have access to their oil, or keep a pulse on the cost of the oil. Now, if we couldn't wear anything related to the US when we were in ports, or cities over there then, obviously something in our policy is fucked. Whether you admit it or not, I know from experience something is way wrong. I say it all the time, we need to bring our asses from over there, after we find whoever's responsible for the attacks, and stay the fuck out of the area. Let them fight and kill each other. Stop giving them weapons, training, money, and shit, because we are getting the shit turned right back on us. And only now, are the American people even slightly aware of what's been going on. Now, explain to me what else you see, I can respect your views.

Post a link proving that Clinton did what you said. I've never seen proof of this, and obviously you got something.

yes, i did know all of that. i never said nothing in our policy wasnt "fucked" i merely said that strongchicks view that this is only about oil was wrong. i believe we have taken a passive stance with theses people and i believe that we should just leave that part of the world alone. i also believe that despite our policy there is no excuse for the killing of innocent americans, unlike strongchick who chooses to disgrace the the memories of those who died. as for the proof that clinton did that, i dont care to go looking for proof of something that was even reported in the liberal media.
 
rushx79 said:


yes, i did know all of that. i never said nothing in our policy wasnt "fucked" i merely said that strongchicks view that this is only about oil was wrong. i believe we have taken a passive stance with theses people and i believe that we should just leave that part of the world alone. i also believe that despite our policy there is no excuse for the killing of innocent americans, unlike strongchick who chooses to disgrace the the memories of those who died. as for the proof that clinton did that, i dont care to go looking for proof of something that was even reported in the liberal media.

Well dude, I can agree to disagree with you, or agree with you....I'm beyond the other stuff between you and chick, I'm into the why's and why nots. I agree with your post.....catch you later......
 
strongchick said:


true debate allows for isolation of issues. I'm trying to discuss this issue sanely without introducing race, because as in other threads, the subject gets lost in racial epithets and expletives.

oh so its ok for you to mention race and resort to name calling but when others do it they arent discussing in a sane manner? hypocrite. how, in any way has the arguement been lost in racial epithets by me?

1.4,500 people died on 9/11/01
2.terrorist acts have been commited agains the u.s. and our allies for the past 30years.
3.our government has take a passive stance allowing this to get worse.
4.you disgrace the memory of those who died in all of those attacks by claiming that it is 100% all about oil.
5. with no respect for the dead you start spewing your anti-american propaganda days after the wtc attack.
6. you make outrages and untrue claims that you have been proven wrong on time and time again.
7.you resort to name calling and bringing race into the discussion and then ridicule others for doing the same.
8.youre a hypocrite.

the list could literally go on and on. you cant present one thing that i cannot shoot down, you have to ridicule others for doing the same thing as you.
 
rushx79 said:


oh so its ok for you to mention race and resort to name calling but when others do it they arent discussing in a sane manner? hypocrite. how, in any way has the arguement been lost in racial epithets by me?


BOT thought I was white. I merely corrected him.

If you can't debate without putting words into someone's mouth, then don't debate. I never said you in particular were arguing race, etc. Geez.

MOve on. You are irritatingly repetitive.
 
strongchick said:


BOT thought I was white. I merely corrected him.

If you can't debate without putting words into someone's mouth, then don't debate. I never said you in particular were arguing race, etc. Geez.

MOve on. You are irritatingly repetitive.
[/QUOT

putting words into your mouth? hardly. i suggest you go back and look at your posts. there are several in which you call someone a name then later on in the same thread you ridicule someone for calling you a name.like i said, hypocrite. but it figures you would forget what you said, after all, you forgot that anything bad happened during clintons term.
irratatingly repetitive? only when arguing with morons that refuse to see how they are wrong even though they have been proven so.
im done arguing with you, youre a ignorant illogical fool that cannot even distinguish your own lies from truth. ive pointed out time and time again the many ways in which youre wrong, yet you are still blind to them.you cannot discuss anything because youre blind. keep on hating america and pissing on the memories of those who died in the wtc, i hope you get whats coming to you.
 
Last edited:
musclebrains said:
So much for the idea that roid rage is a myth. Strongchick is asking some legitimate questions that are already being considered in the mainstream media. What the hell is wrong with that?

Where are all you guys who are always cautioning against name-calling right now? It seems that this is only a concern when the person you're insulting bites back.


Thanks for pointing out the namecalling...I was beginning to think this is how this forum works...

While my idea is not original (other wars have been fought over oil, of course), I brought this up October 7th in another thread....mainstream media is just now gathering steam on this issue... '-)
 
you dont get it do you, you dumb bitch. THat issue is quite irrelevant now? 100 percent of america realizes this except for you? Do yourself a favor stop talking and embarassing yourself. If someone murdered your mom would you point out the fact that she had terminal cancer and was gonna be dead in a year anyway so it wasnt that big of a deal?
 
strongchick said:


yawn. If you don't know how to debate without name calling, then you're the dummy.

i think the name calling happens because you are so dumb that you dont realize when you are losing. that gets aggrevating.
 
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Strongchick...you have the right to your opinions. I truly believe that it is people like yourself (of which there are many) that will truly lead to the fall of this nation. If Americans will not support their country in a time such as this, what hope is there for America? You would like America to play by the rules when those against us have no rules. You would have us be rational, while those against us practice insanity. The ultimate irony is that all the freedoms and opportunities that this country affords you are the very things that those against us would do away with. Of course America has made mistakes (no country is perfect), but if you truly cannot see the difference between us and our enemies you are either blind or a fool.:confused:
 
mrbill said:
Strongchick...you have the right to your opinions. I truly believe that it is people like yourself (of which there are many) that will truly lead to the fall of this nation. If Americans will not support their country in a time such as this, what hope is there for America? You would like America to play by the rules when those against us have no rules. You would have us be rational, while those against us practice insanity. The ultimate irony is that all the freedoms and opportunities that this country affords you are the very things that those against us would do away with. Of course America has made mistakes (no country is perfect), but if you truly cannot see the difference between us and our enemies you are either blind or a fool.:confused:

Strongchick put an article up and posed some questions about our interests in the Middle East. That hardly means she doesn't "support America."

Indeed, I think you could reasonably argue that the downfall of nations typically has more to do with a population's blind nationalism than with its skepticism. Don't lecture Strongchick about American freedoms, when you're pummelling her with invective simply because she is exercising her most important freedom -- speech. You call her blind?
 
BOT said:

Next to the liberals--Liberals can only see hate, resentment and self interest in other people because that is all you they have in their own heart

America was built on this very philosophy....that man is selfish. This idea is the basis for capitalism...if man works to his own advantage, then this is best for the economy..and since man is selfish anyway, capitalism will work for the best for everyone as a whole.

So your argument is moot. You blame liberals for the very attitude that built this country.

Go read a book or two on American history. Then come back and argue properly, with knowledge.
 
BOT said:
. That is what makes this country great. It is recognized that man has the right to be a shithead and to chose to do so is his own responsibility.

Truly. I think we should print that on American currency. "America, where everyone has the right to be a shithead."

Maybe we could print it on the containers of food we're airlifting to the Afghanis.
 
:rolleyes:

Now, before you label me, I'm not a liberal, nor a conservative,

because both have their faults.....which by your post, you neglected to mention the faults of the conservatives......in typical American fashion, to point out the faults of others, and not see your own. As for trying to get aggressors, your conservative Ron Reagan failed to get the perps who killed the 241 Marines, lied about secret arms deals, and gave birth to the passive attitude toward Americans who died overseas by terrorist acts. Nor did G Bush Sr. do anything more than put a bandage over the Iraq fiasco....which, we are still attempting to meagerly enforce. You attempt to appear somewhat objective, list all the faults, not just those of liberals, or pacifists.
 
BOT said:
My point is that I hate liberals and conspiracy theorists. This oil post gave me a nice opportunity to voice my opinion on the matter. While I know the conservaticves are far from pefect, I like them 100000000000.... times more than I like the liberals. I might dislike the extreme right wing conservatives the most however. Really, I don't know much, I am just a kid trying to figure shit out for himself who is on too much diet pills and steroids. I don't feel to smart right now so I can't really make any more points about this issue, all my drugs have left my system. I just care about the environment and I hate selfish people and self righteous people and people who think they are victims.

You're entitled to voice your opinion, drug-induced or not.
If you don't think conservatives are selfish people....then you need to study your politics buddy.......on that and environmental issues as well. Get back to me when you feel smarter....I enjoy a good debate, without insulting name-calling to get a point across....(not accusing you...)
 
like I said...musclebrains...there are many that support views such as strongchicks. I have a simple suggestion for you and all others who think this country is SO BAD, please leave. If I hated this country so much, I would leave. It is a big world, why stay somewhere that is "so unjust"?? BTW, I am not being scarcastic I am dead serious.
 
mrbill said:
like I said...musclebrains...there are many that support views such as strongchicks. I have a simple suggestion for you and all others who think this country is SO BAD, please leave. If I hated this country so much, I would leave. It is a big world, why stay somewhere that is "so unjust"?? BTW, I am not being scarcastic I am dead serious.

Since you are serious, let me assure you that I don't hate America. I seriously hate your kind of intolerance of dissent, which, as I said, is far more Talibanesque than American.

Anyway, get some new lines. I heard the same thing during the antiwar movement as a high school and college student....and the great majoirty of Americans came around to the same point of view us "UnAmericans" had from the start.

But the sad thing about your "dead serious" little brain is that you have no idea whether I support military action in Afghanistan, which I think is quite different, the rhetoric aside, from VN. You just think anyone who thinks the NY Times and Strongchick have a right to ask difficult questions must be a traitor.

Perhaps you would like to require all Americans to take an oath of loyalty to your positions, and, if they refuse, ship them to Afghanistan?
 
BOT said:
My point is that I hate liberals and conspiracy theorists. This oil post gave me a nice opportunity to voice my opinion on the matter.

I must say I enjoyed reading your opinion. It had considerably more thought than many others here, and shows you think about things, like I do. Neither of us may be right, both of us may be right.

After some thought...I realize that what I'm really trying to say is...

...Americans are so self-righteous and indignant and arrogant about our points of view. We live in a great country, filled with advantages and opportunity. And like the Tom Cruise/Jack Nicholson flick, sometimes I just "can't handle the truth"....

...meaning...In order to live the way we do, we TAKE STUFF from other countries. To us, it is OKAY that we TAKE STUFF because we do this by some 'collectively' decided committee 'rules' that say it is okay to take things from other countries or manipulate those countries if we line up the logic a certain way...

...this line of reasoning for our taking stuff...things like 'Divine Right' and 'Manifest Destiny' and 'Imperialism' and 'Christianity' and 'Democracy'....have all been used as reasons in our past for TAKING STUFF.

Now that the bin Laden's of the world have their own set of rules for TAKING STUFF, it isn't okay.

Well, that's fine...if we could just admit that there is a double standard.

After all, war is not a game of honor...it is a bloody battle of wills. It is about power and money and greed and land and advantage.

By the time most of us grow up to figure out that we Americans aren't always righteous, we've already developed strong opinions mired in our culture and upbringing...so thinking about things from other points of view becomes impossible.

Forbes got wealthy on Chinese heroine.
Rockefellers got wealthy on bootleg liquor, as did the Kennedy's.

The oil business began with 'Robber Barons' plotting and planning to beat their competition by destroying trains and rails and price fixing. And yes, people died for the rich man's cause in all cases.

So why is not okay to blow up a couple of buildings and kill 5000+ people?

We in the US have killed millions with drugs, gangster bootlegging of alcohol during prohibition, the diamond trade...(you've seen documentaries of people with limbs cut off because desire to control diamond mining...and we continue to buy diamonds anyway).

I'm NOT SAYING IT IS OKAY TO KILL...FAR FROM IT...

Bottom line...we are hypocrites of the worst kind. Fine by me, so I can pee in a toilet and not an outhouse.

Just don't tell me that we aren't hypocrites while you spout off about bin Laden's terrorism.

Drug lords of today KNOW about Forbes and whatnot. How do you think THEY justify and live with themselves? They shake their heads at you, just like bin Laden.

Sorry kids, who are reading this, to blow away your naivete. It had to happen some time.
 
strongchick said:


I must say I enjoyed reading your opinion. It had considerably more thought than many others here, and shows you think about things, like I do. Neither of us may be right, both of us may be right.

After some thought...I realize that what I'm really trying to say is...

...Americans are so self-righteous and indignant and arrogant about our points of view. We live in a great country, filled with advantages and opportunity. And like the Tom Cruise/Jack Nicholson flick, sometimes I just "can't handle the truth"....

...meaning...In order to live the way we do, we TAKE STUFF from other countries. To us, it is OKAY that we TAKE STUFF because we do this by some 'collectively' decided committee 'rules' that say it is okay to take things from other countries or manipulate those countries if we line up the logic a certain way...

...this line of reasoning for our taking stuff...things like 'Divine Right' and 'Manifest Destiny' and 'Imperialism' and 'Christianity' and 'Democracy'....have all been used as reasons in our past for TAKING STUFF.

Now that the bin Laden's of the world have their own set of rules for TAKING STUFF, it isn't okay.

Well, that's fine...if we could just admit that there is a double standard.

After all, war is not a game of honor...it is a bloody battle of wills. It is about power and money and greed and land and advantage.

By the time most of us grow up to figure out that we Americans aren't always righteous, we've already developed strong opinions mired in our culture and upbringing...so thinking about things from other points of view becomes impossible.

Forbes got wealthy on Chinese heroine.
Rockefellers got wealthy on bootleg liquor, as did the Kennedy's.

The oil business began with 'Robber Barons' plotting and planning to beat their competition by destroying trains and rails and price fixing. And yes, people died for the rich man's cause in all cases.

So why is not okay to blow up a couple of buildings and kill 5000+ people?

We in the US have killed millions with drugs, gangster bootlegging of alcohol during prohibition, the diamond trade...(you've seen documentaries of people with limbs cut off because desire to control diamond mining...and we continue to buy diamonds anyway).

I'm NOT SAYING IT IS OKAY TO KILL...FAR FROM IT...

Bottom line...we are hypocrites of the worst kind. Fine by me, so I can pee in a toilet and not an outhouse.

Just don't tell me that we aren't hypocrites while you spout off about bin Laden's terrorism.

Drug lords of today KNOW about Forbes and whatnot. How do you think THEY justify and live with themselves? They shake their heads at you, just like bin Laden.

Sorry kids, who are reading this, to blow away your naivete. It had to happen some time.

good post.....
 
strongchick said:


I must say I enjoyed reading your opinion. It had considerably more thought than many others here, and shows you think about things, like I do. Neither of us may be right, both of us may be right.

After some thought...I realize that what I'm really trying to say is...

...Americans are so self-righteous and indignant and arrogant about our points of view. We live in a great country, filled with advantages and opportunity. And like the Tom Cruise/Jack Nicholson flick, sometimes I just "can't handle the truth"....

...meaning...In order to live the way we do, we TAKE STUFF from other countries. To us, it is OKAY that we TAKE STUFF because we do this by some 'collectively' decided committee 'rules' that say it is okay to take things from other countries or manipulate those countries if we line up the logic a certain way...

...this line of reasoning for our taking stuff...things like 'Divine Right' and 'Manifest Destiny' and 'Imperialism' and 'Christianity' and 'Democracy'....have all been used as reasons in our past for TAKING STUFF.

Now that the bin Laden's of the world have their own set of rules for TAKING STUFF, it isn't okay.

Well, that's fine...if we could just admit that there is a double standard.

After all, war is not a game of honor...it is a bloody battle of wills. It is about power and money and greed and land and advantage.

By the time most of us grow up to figure out that we Americans aren't always righteous, we've already developed strong opinions mired in our culture and upbringing...so thinking about things from other points of view becomes impossible.

Forbes got wealthy on Chinese heroine.
Rockefellers got wealthy on bootleg liquor, as did the Kennedy's.

The oil business began with 'Robber Barons' plotting and planning to beat their competition by destroying trains and rails and price fixing. And yes, people died for the rich man's cause in all cases.

So why is not okay to blow up a couple of buildings and kill 5000+ people?

We in the US have killed millions with drugs, gangster bootlegging of alcohol during prohibition, the diamond trade...(you've seen documentaries of people with limbs cut off because desire to control diamond mining...and we continue to buy diamonds anyway).

I'm NOT SAYING IT IS OKAY TO KILL...FAR FROM IT...

Bottom line...we are hypocrites of the worst kind. Fine by me, so I can pee in a toilet and not an outhouse.

Just don't tell me that we aren't hypocrites while you spout off about bin Laden's terrorism.

Drug lords of today KNOW about Forbes and whatnot. How do you think THEY justify and live with themselves? They shake their heads at you, just like bin Laden.

Sorry kids, who are reading this, to blow away your naivete. It had to happen some time.

your right, and for me its as simple as a battle of philosophies and ideas, always has been and always will be. i readily admit i am a hypocrit. and i dont like bin ladens philosophies or ideas. period. slice anyway you want to justify anything you want, bin laden(and the like) are like a pile of shit. dig thru it, examine it, analyze it, and in the end realize all you have is shit under your fingernails and it stinks. its time to impose our will upon those that have attacked this country.
 
spongebob said:


your right, and for me its as simple as a battle of philosophies and ideas, always has been and always will be. i readily admit i am a hypocrit. and i dont like bin ladens philosophies or ideas. period. slice anyway you want to justify anything you want, bin laden(and the like) are like a pile of shit. dig thru it, examine it, analyze it, and in the end realize all you have is shit under your fingernails and it stinks. its time to impose our will upon those that have attacked this country.

I agree with you spongebob.....though I don't like the hypocrite part....because the military changed that part for me. I don't care for either democrats, or republicans, imo, neither govern for the people, more for their angle or points....so I don't like either, but like somethings about both......bin looser is a loser also, I'd love to put a bullet in his head......but I could put one in some government officials heads too. I know politicians are liars too.
Not on the same level, but they still suck. And if we had never been attacked, we'd still have shit under our fingernails. Only thing is people wouldn't be aware of it.........except for some of us.
 
gymnpoppa said:


I agree with you spongebob.....though I don't like the hypocrite part....because the military changed that part for me. I don't care for either democrats, or republicans, imo, neither govern for the people, more for their angle or points....so I don't like either, but like somethings about both......bin looser is a loser also, I'd love to put a bullet in his head......but I could put one in some government officials heads too. I know politicians are liars too.
Not on the same level, but they still suck. And if we had never been attacked, we'd still have shit under our fingernails. Only thing is people wouldn't be aware of it.........except for some of us.

i just think its hard for people not to be hypocritical, it seems like its an innate quality. i think it takes alot of self evaluation for one to admit he is a hypocrit. as with all faults though i do not demonize them, but just accept them(to a degree ofcourse). is that hypocritical?
i use the term in a broad sense though. ie. a person yells at someone speeding down his street and then goes inside and shoots AS up his ass. for some reason people rarely point out thier own faults, maybe out of fear.
i just dont want us(the public) to lose sight of what we have to do. we can agree to disagree to agree on our govts faults and screwups, but lets not forget who the real enemy is.
its very easy to pick out the things that are wrong with our country(and we should), but lets take some time once in awhile to mention her good side.
 
Who cares!!!!

the US import 40% of their oil from the North ( Canada )
20% from Mexico, 10% from Venezuela, the rest is from the Middle East anyway,
Saudia has around not even 10 years or so of oil.

I think those "towelheads" like some peoples like to call them, are created with inflated egos, and fucking big heads, they are not the centre of the universe, nor the US,
nor Antartica.

It will be fun fun fun fun in the sun, when Saudia will ran out of oil, and the Monarchy will not be able to cope with it..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
O'Stanozol said:
Who cares!!!!

the US import 40% of their oil from the North ( Canada )
20% from Mexico, 10% from Venezuela, the rest is from the Middle East anyway,
Saudia has around not even 10 years or so of oil.

I think those "towelheads" like some peoples like to call them, are created with inflated egos, and fucking big heads, they are not the centre of the universe, nor the US,
nor Antartica.

It will be fun fun fun fun in the sun, when Saudia will ran out of oil, and the Monarchy will not be able to cope with it..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

the US as of 2000 imported about 1.7MMBD from canada.
it imported about 1.6MMBD from saudi arabia. with venezuela and mexico 3rd and 4th respectively.

your asumption that saudi will run out of oil in 10 years or so is wrong. they have 25% of the worlds proven reserves(which is #1) vs. canada maybe has 1% if that.

canadas' proven reserves have gone down over the past 20 years, whereas saudi arabias has increased by more than 50%. now who is gonna run out in 10 years?

from an oil standpoint i would much rather be friends with the saudi's. americas policy is to use other nations oil until it runs out and then use ours and our close allies. so our involvement in the middle east is about oil.
 
spongebob said:


the US as of 2000 imported about 1.7MMBD from canada.
it imported about 1.6MMBD from saudi arabia. with venezuela and mexico 3rd and 4th respectively.

your asumption that saudi will run out of oil in 10 years or so is wrong. they have 25% of the worlds proven reserves(which is #1) vs. canada maybe has 1% if that.

canadas' proven reserves have gone down over the past 20 years, whereas saudi arabias has increased by more than 50%. now who is gonna run out in 10 years?

from an oil standpoint i would much rather be friends with the saudi's. americas policy is to use other nations oil until it runs out and then use ours and our close allies. so our involvement in the middle east is about oil.

I wonder why most people don't know this, however, I do wish that we could tighten our belts, and cut the M E loose....completely.....we are so used to overconsumption, and greediness that we can't even consider it. We don't have to sell them weapons, planes, and train them, for it to turn around and bite us in the ass later......I think that strongchick was attempting to say this, but it didn't come across quite the same..interesting to see if they flame you for saying basically the same thing.....
 
gymnpoppa said:


I wonder why most people don't know this, however, I do wish that we could tighten our belts, and cut the M E loose....completely.....we are so used to overconsumption, and greediness that we can't even consider it. We don't have to sell them weapons, planes, and train them, for it to turn around and bite us in the ass later......I think that strongchick was attempting to say this, but it didn't come across quite the same..interesting to see if they flame you for saying basically the same thing.....

IMO, this could be a strategy by US. to use up as much oil as possible from the middle east, and then still have our reserves and our true allies reserves. if it cost some american lives along the way, so be it. thats thier attitude. i believe the US wants a stable region over there for this purpose. oil.
its always dynamic though. support someone this year only to turn around and be attacked by them later. we saved the middle easts ass in desert storm and for our reward OPEC shits on us.
one day when oil does start to run dry at least we are #1 in coal reserves and #6 in natural gas reserves, but we dont want to use it right now. oil is just efficient right now(the uses you get out of it).
i think stongchick just came off as a little unpatriotic to everybody. she didn't offend me.
 
Originally posted by rushx79
"also, i never said i supported reagan or said i was a conservative. i was pointing out flaws in her way of thinking. flaws like "no terrorist attacks happened during clintons terms" and "clinton was a good and honorable president." she is the typical liberal hypocrite, and that is why i give her such a hard time. "

It is very possible for a person to see things objectively, outside of their political leanings. Even though I hate Bush, my like or dislike of him is irrelevant to my point. We are all Americans, therefore we are all hypocrites, anyway.

I merely posted what may/may not be facts from reputable writers in the media.

You have posted rhetoric and hate.

And if we want to argue about namecalling, then the whole debate becomes childish...

...that we stick to the point is more important.

I've said my piece. I've supported my point of view.

I don't believe you have...

and since I put more effort in here than I have received, I choose to bow out.

When you find articles, links, data to support your point of view
that America is not hypocritical,

that there is proof in writing somewhere that bin Laden did this

that oil is NOT the goal

that America should NOT look to other forms of energy to reduce our dependence on oil and other countries

I will listen to what you have to say.

Until then, you lack credibility.

bye.
 
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