The Unintended Result of the 9-11 Hearings

[Code]

Honestly, I had to hold back.
There is so much specious hyperbole regarding the Patriot Act II, that it's pointless to talk to those folks.

lol, you should have joined me here

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313385

 

[atlantabiolab]

I'm VERY familiar with the Patriot Act II, but thanks for the offer.

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

What part are you suggesting is a *new* law that allows for the wholesale intelligence gathering of US civilians?

Code, has government not already demonstrated that it does not play by the rules? It seems that you assume that the government will play "nice" this time.

 

[slowtom]

I'm VERY familiar with the Patriot Act II, but thanks for the offer.

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

What part are you suggesting is a *new* law that allows for the wholesale intelligence gathering of US civilians?

Now, I'll tell you, I'm a CONSERVATIVE. I just don't see Bush as being one. I think he's a LIBERAL & Kerry's a commie. Now, my concern is that the Neocons have put the typical Republican to sleep & a Demoncrat will then get in, this time or next, & run wild with the new little tools given them by the NeoCONs (I'm sure more things will come along).

I believe there is a hauuuuuuuuuuge leftist conspiracy (no not Jews) at hand & the supposed Christian Bush is in to keep Repubs quiet. While the US is sold down the Liberal river. Prime example is Bush signing back on to UNESCO. UNESCO! AAAAAAAH! The UN gets to decide who gets control of Iraq in June. The Uf'nN! Anyway...

Ok:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/14/national/main573155.shtml

BTW, have you heard of ECHELON? Been around for years. The gvernment has been spying on us for years. & even if Section 802 isn't read very broadly, it won't take much to convince citizens that it's in their best interest to be spied on. "It's to keep the children safe"

NyTimes (not that that means much, nor does the lifeandliberty info lol)

According to the New York Times, the US Homeland Security department could offer a way around the traditional FBI and CIA restrictions on domestic spying. The government argues that Homeland Security is intended for analysis only, not collecting intelligence; but it appears from the list of organizations included in the Department that claim is not entirely true.


The old restrictions placed the F.B.I. in charge of domestic intelligence and barred other agencies including the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, which eavesdrops on communications overseas from operating in the United States. The F.B.I.'s powers were restricted. It could not spy on political or religious groups without evidence that the group was involved in a crime. It could not monitor terror or espionage suspects without a warrant from a special court based on evidence that "primary purpose" of the surveillance was intelligence gathering, not criminal investigation.
The C.I.A. was authorized to operate only overseas under rules that were not as strict as the F.B.I. limits, but that still curtailed the agency's involvement in covert operations and banned outright the assassination of foreign leaders.

[...]

What administration officials have left unsaid is that Mr. Ridge's own new department could eventually take on a major new role in domestic intelligence. The law creating the department establishes an "intelligence sharing and infrastructure protection" division that will be responsible for gathering and acting on information from other agencies about terrorist threats on United States soil.

[...]

The administration has insisted that homeland security will be primarily a "consumer" of information from the F.B.I., the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency. But several agencies that collect intelligence on their own the Secret Service, the Customs Service, the Border Patrol and the Coast Guard are all being thrown together inside the Department of Homeland Security. While there is no plan to do so now, those agencies could someday form the basis for a large homeland security intelligence collection unit.

 

[Code]

I'm intimately familiar with echelon.
I can tell you that echelon does NOT gather massive amounts of data on massive amounts of users. It is a VERY directional tool.

The government uses much better, far more effective tools to gather massive quantities of data.

If you honestly think that this tool is the end-all of intelligence gathering, you're sadly mistaken. It has serious limitations and it is NOT easy to get approval for it's usage anyway.

What no one seems to catch on to here is that government agencies are immune to conspiracy theories that rest themselves in a Single party. Why? Because no Single party is ever in power long enough to garner enough kinetic energy to keep something this "devious" under wraps.

Now, I'll tell you, I'm a CONSERVATIVE. I just don't see Bush as being one. I think he's a LIBERAL & Kerry's a commie. Now, my concern is that the Neocons have put the typical Republican to sleep & a Demoncrat will then get, in this time or next, & run wild with the new little tools given them by the NeoCONs (I'm sure more things will come along).

I believe there is a hauuuuuuuuuuge leftist conspiracy (no not Jews) at hand & the supposed Christian Bush is in to keep Repubs quiet. While the US is sold down the Liberal river. Prime example is Bush signing back on to UNESCO. UNESCO! AAAAAAAH! The UN gets to decide who gets control of Iraq in June. The Uf'nN! Anyway...

Ok:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/14/national/main573155.shtml

BTW, have you heard of ECHELON? Been around for years. The gvernment has been spying on us for years. & even if Section 802 isn't read very broadly, it won't take much to convince citizens that it's in their best interest to be spied on. "It's to keep the children safe"

NyTimes (not that that means much)

According to the New York Times, the US Homeland Security department could offer a way around the traditional FBI and CIA restrictions on domestic spying. The government argues that Homeland Security is intended for analysis only, not collecting intelligence; but it appears from the list of organizations included in the Department that claim is not entirely true.


The old restrictions placed the F.B.I. in charge of domestic intelligence and barred other agencies including the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, which eavesdrops on communications overseas from operating in the United States. The F.B.I.'s powers were restricted. It could not spy on political or religious groups without evidence that the group was involved in a crime. It could not monitor terror or espionage suspects without a warrant from a special court based on evidence that "primary purpose" of the surveillance was intelligence gathering, not criminal investigation.
The C.I.A. was authorized to operate only overseas under rules that were not as strict as the F.B.I. limits, but that still curtailed the agency's involvement in covert operations and banned outright the assassination of foreign leaders.

[...]

What administration officials have left unsaid is that Mr. Ridge's own new department could eventually take on a major new role in domestic intelligence. The law creating the department establishes an "intelligence sharing and infrastructure protection" division that will be responsible for gathering and acting on information from other agencies about terrorist threats on United States soil.

[...]

The administration has insisted that homeland security will be primarily a "consumer" of information from the F.B.I., the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency. But several agencies that collect intelligence on their own the Secret Service, the Customs Service, the Border Patrol and the Coast Guard are all being thrown together inside the Department of Homeland Security. While there is no plan to do so now, those agencies could someday form the basis for a large homeland security intelligence collection unit.

 

[Code]

You're going to want to read CRS-2 and CRS-3.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/23197.pdf

BTW, have you heard of ECHELON? Been around for years. form .

 

[AAP]

Bush is still going to lose.

 

[slowtom]

I'm intimately familiar with echelon.
I can tell you that echelon does NOT gather massive amounts of data on massive amounts of users. It is a VERY directional tool.

The government uses much better, far more effective tools to gather massive quantities of data.

If you honestly think that this tool is the end-all of intelligence gathering, you're sadly mistaken. It has serious limitations and it is NOT easy to get approval for it's usage anyway.

What no one seems to catch on to here is that government agencies are immune to conspiracy theories that rest themselves in a Single party. Why? Because no Single party is ever in power long enough to garner enough kinetic energy to keep something this "devious" under wraps.

Well Code, you were unfamiliar with the Silverstein statement, so excuse me if I don't just accept how familiar you are with everything. ECHELON countries spy on each other's citizens to get around "details". I'll read your .pdf after I eat... starved. Mad cow hear I come.

Now, as for conspiracy... it becomes very apparent, if you see that all parties are in cooperation for creating their 'ideal' world government. & no, that doesn't mean everyone in a position of power knows what's going on. It just means they're pawns being used by a select group.

I take it you're a conservative... don't you see us moving more & more left? Even though a supposed "right wing Christian zealot" in charge *COUGH*PUPPET*COUGH*

 

[Code]

Well Code, you were unfamiliar with the Silverstein statement, so excuse me if I don't just accept how familiar you are with everything. ECHELON countries spy on each other's citizens to get around "details".

Everyone knows the UK spies on US citizens and vice verse. But do you really think that two agencies in two different countries are so in-step with one another that they can do this on a wholesale level??

The Silverstein comment was out of context. He is making the claim that the NYFD "pulled the building", not that it was pre-rigged or taken out by the US Gov.

Now, as for conspiracy... it becomes very apparent, if you see that all parties are in cooperation for creating their 'ideal' world government. & no, that doesn't mean everyone in a position of power knows what's going on. It just means they're pawns being used by a select group.

I take it you're a conservative... don't you see us moving more & more left? Even though a supposed "right wing Christian zealot" in charge *COUGH*PUPPET*COUGH*

Ahh, someone who thinks there are lizards in the middle of the Earth running things. Nuff said orb, no need for me to waste anymore text on you. Go back to making tin-foil hats.

 

[slowtom]

Everyone knows the UK spies on US citizens and vice verse. But do you really think that two agencies in two different countries are so in-step with one another that they can do this on a wholesale level??

The Silverstein comment was out of context. He is making the claim that the NYFD "pulled the building", not that it was pre-rigged or taken out by the US Gov.



Ahh, someone who thinks there are lizards in the middle of the Earth running things. Nuff said orb, no need for me to waste anymore text on you. Go back to making tin-foil hats.

Out of context? OK whatever.

Dammit! I hate David Icke! No, not lizards, more like CFR & Bilderbergers etc...

Anyway, here's where I was going with the MI5 comment:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/10/31/wfbi31.xml/

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/HallsOfJustice/hallsofjustice149.html

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20031014_863.html

I see you didn't answer which way things are moving... left or right? Don't bring this down to the lizard crap. There are actually serious topics within "conspiracy theory". Even if you don't believe in a conspiracy, I hope you believe in freedom (freedom doesn't mean safety).

 

[Code]

Things are moving the general direction of our collective society.

Meaning, we want to protect our freedoms, but aren't sure how to without limiting rights. Whether they are rights of non-citizens, convicts or honest citizens. We want to draw lines, but we want to be able to re-draw them when they make our lives different (not better or worse, simply different).

In the world I work in, higher security measures always equates to two certainties:

1.) Less personal control.
2.) More process and procedures.


Winston Churchill said it best, "If you want to make enemies, try changing something."

Tighter security controls and more accurate intelligence procedures always raise concerns about abuse and/or general use.

I'd suggest reading the following:
Executive Order 12333
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12333.htm

Basically, there are very strict and severe checks and balances to prevent the abuse of intelligence gathering. In fact, local police departments collect more humint on US citizens than the federal government does, mostly because they lack these very checks and balances.

Do I really think that abuse doesn't occur? No, that would be outrageous for me to suggest. But I do not think it's a major concern. I've seen it in action, and I've seen it stone-walled.

Out of context? OK whatever.

Dammit! I hate David Icke! No, not lizards, more like CFR & Bilderbergers etc...

Anyway, here's where I was going with the MI5 comment:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/10/31/wfbi31.xml/

I see you didn't answer which way things are moving... left or right? Don't bring this down to the lizard crap. There are actually serious topics within "conspiracy theory". Even if you don't believe in a conspiracy, I hope you believe in freedom (freedom doesn't mean safety).