The ultimate insulin thread

[anthrax]

Not so long ago post workout diet was pretty simple:

It was said that we needed some gigh GI carbs to induce an insulin spike that will "push" amino acids (from the post workout shake) into muscles, thus repairing and building new muscles

But, we now know that we don't need a lot of high GI carbs to create that insulin spike

And very gigh GI carbs (like dextrose) have some cons that we should avoid

So, are those high GI carbs mandatory ?
useful ?
useless ?

Should we avoid those high GI carbs even post workout and stick to loer GI carbs or just protein ?

 

[juve]

It was said that we needed some gigh GI carbs to induce an insulin spike that will "push" amino acids (from the post workout shake) into muscles, thus repairing and building new muscles

This fallible premiss is what prompted everyone into believing that 80g's dextrose PW is optimal for growth - growth of what? adipocities? And all the malleable adherents of whoever procured this theory spread it around like a gangrene

A minimal amount of insulin is necessary for aminoacid transport: MINIMUM!!!!!!! In fact so minimum that ingested protein itself induces enough of an insulin surge (very small, but nontheless) to be assimilated.
As a matter of fact concuming dextrose only causes a prmature spike - your protein has not even began the process of being digested (protein>peptide>aminoacid) while your blood sugar is rampant.
And cortisol antagonizing properties - once again minimum insulin; as soon as your body shifts to a process of being 'fed' cortisol production ceases and insulin itself suppresses the rest.

 

[chewyxrage]

i just eat like 30g medium-low gi carbs post workout about a half hour my whey.......is this accomplising anything?

 

[ProtienFiend]

Re: Re: The ultimate insulin thread

A minimal amount of insulin is necessary for aminoacid transport: MINIMUM!!!!!!! In fact so minimum that ingested protein itself induces enough of an insulin surge (very small, but nontheless) to be assimilated.

so what do u use in your PW shake?

how many carbs do you eat for the rest of the day following your workout?

 

[ohashi]

I'm going to post this once more. Read these two articles on post-workout nutrition and importance of high-GI carbohydrates during this time:

First article - proper post-workout nutrition, quite in-depth.

Second article - importance and function of carbohydrates, with more sources cited on the subject than ever before.

 

[anthrax]

Great articles, ohashi

Thx

 

[juve]

and so the debate continues...

 

[jaymis]

juve , post up a diet that you follow

 

[ohashi]

Debate? LOL, science versus folk lore.

 

[adam wj]

good reading ohashi, karma for you

 

[SoreArms]

You guys post some good info.

K is coming as soon as I pass it around.

 

[juve]

Debate? LOL, science versus folk lore.

Just to keep it civil.
I can post a link to PubMed, StanfordMed, NEJM, etc...
Now that wouldn't say anything, right? All I am saying, if you cannot even provide a synopsis or an interpretation of what is said, why post it. There are databases out there which will give you more references than you would be able to peruse given the span of your life. If you can't infer or deduce anything from that, it's as good as purposeless to you.

 

[anthrax]

So, what is your postworkout meal Juve ?

and can a shake of protein be enough to stop cortisol ?

 

[bran987]

and perhaps.,. does this part of the article somewhat address what juve is talking about?

"Let me explain…

Our goal is to get a steady flow of nutrients during the potent “window of opportunity” post-training. I believe an overproduction of insulin, resulting from an overly rapid consumption of simple carbs, is the reason for a lot of the typical “bulking phase chub” we all hate.

As you consume your post-exercise meal, contemplate your energy levels over the next hour. It’s of the utmost significance that your energy levels do not go down at all during the post-workout period.

If they do that means this flow of nutrients has been disturbed. Two things can offset this flow:

1. Your blood glucose levels are dropping, meaning you aren’t getting enough nutrients when your body needs them.

2. Your blood glucose levels rose too quickly! As a result of this your body secretes an overload of insulin to get rid of the blood glucose. What happens as a result of this overload? Some of it will go to start protein synthesis, but most of it gets converted to fat. Remember, excess glucose goes to fat.

To make matters worse, your blood glucose levels begin to drop and you go back into a catabolic condition. So not only are you catabolic but you gain fat! WHOA! That’s the very opposite of what we want!

To protect against either of the above two scenarios consume your shake at a slower rate. Your post-workout meal should be taken over the course of a 45 to 60 minute period.

This cushioning effect will ensure a better processing job of the nutrients consumed. As a general rule of thumb, consume half of your meal immediately, and sip on the rest over the 45 to 60 minute time frame."

I know that it is different from what juve said.. I think he is suggesting zero post-workout carbs.. but at least this guy is in agreement that you can gain fat by drinking them all at once before your protein starts digesting?

 

[juve]

I am truly amazed Bran. Someone has actually read the articles
I'm certainly not in the position to critique the articles at full for they are a compilation of a great aggregate of research, but all those who said "great articles" "karma your..." I bet never even understood what was being said. But I raise the stakes - you haven't even read the articles - some people are just bound to concede to gain favor?
This is a sole reason why I wanted a debate - a monkey left alone in a library doesn't become anything resembling a human being

 

[juve]

Also, I want to make a distinction:
You might have got an idea that I advocate no glucose PW. If you reread my post you would see that I was simply rejecting the fallacious premiss that the reason for sugar PW is to shuttle aminos or blunt cortisol. Very much of your nutrition including PW depends on type of training, type of dieting, desired results (cosmetic, strength, endurance, speed)
One more thing, cortisol is by far not the greatest 'evil' that is 'destroying' your hard earned muscle. Reactive oxygen species, perroxides, tnf, nf (these are actually the ones found in muscle wasting/cancer patients; healthy individuals simply have a surge of these PW due to stress) type proteins, etc are far more dangerous - they can alter DNA composition of muscle cells, not mentioning destryoing it.

And please everyone who extolls the articles - please do share what it is that you have learned and will incorporate in your routine form now on. Very curious here

 

[SoreArms]

So if your body is in the process of gluconeogenesis, would post WO whey (with no carbs) be turned into glucose rather than used to repair muscle?

Once gluconeogenesis is in process, wouldn't cortisol levels also drop because glucose (form protein) is now available?

Also, could gluconeogenesis be avoided by supplementing BCAA's?

Insulin rebound is responsible for the release of Growth Hormone, which is the key hormone responsible for the release of Insulin Growth Factor.

As a general rule, on a bulk-up plan the amount of carbs to consume following a hardcore weight training session is five grams of simple carbohydrates for every ten pounds of lean body mass (LBM). This would mean a body builder with 200lbs. of LBM would consume 100 grams of high-glycemic simple carbohydrates post-training.

On a cutting phase I recommend consuming 2.5 grams of carbs per ten pounds of lean body mass

Mix (using the same 200 lb. male on a bulk example) 100 grams of a combination of 50% of your carbs coming from Dextrose and 50 % of your carbs coming from Maltodextrin with,

50 grams of hydrolyzed whey protein,

all mixed with 1 Liter of Water.

Shake all the ingredients well. (I personally like using a Tupperware cup for my shakes)

Scoop out and consume 5-10 grams of creatine, and consume along side the shake. I don’t recommend mixing the creatine directly into the shake. Simply spoon it into your mouth and drink it down with your shake. Consume 1/2 of the shake in this immediately following your workout in this manner. After you have taken half the shake in, continue taking small sips of the shake.

15-20 minutes later

Scoop out and consume (again don’t mix directly into the shake) 5-10 grams of L-Glutamine.

Now is the time to consume any anti oxidants with your shake. A high quality multi-vitamin will work well, or you can just take Vitamin C and/or E.

This combination of L-Glutamine and anti-oxidants will help to super charge your immune system after the beating it has just taken.

Continue sipping on your post-workout meal for the duration of the initial 45-60 minute period.

30 minutes after you have completely finished your post-workout meal eat a well balanced meal.

Interesting. I'll have to read the second article when I get home from work.

Anybody have any links supporting the "other" side to this, or any other point of view not nescessarily con?

 

[njlw226]

in regards to the first article...

that first article was an absolute great read. if i had any karma, id shoot it your way. i do have some questions here though:

-in regards to this PWO shake, ive been taking my shake down just a few minutes before i start my workout so that it hopefully hits right when im done. should i go ahead and change that and take it right after like this article states?

-should i go ahead and make sure i am supplementing glutamine? i do not currently take glutamine, but is it safe to say i need to be?

-this says to go ahead and get my vitamin c & e with this shake. i have plenty of C & E in my multivitamin. should i take this multi with the shake then? the bottle says to take with food.

thanks so much for the help guys.

 

[SoreArms]

Originally posted by Juve
as soon as your body shifts to a process of being 'fed' cortisol production ceases and insulin itself suppresses the rest.

I re-read your post and answered some of my questions.

 

[ProtienFiend]

Insulin rebound is responsible for the release of Growth Hormone, which is the key hormone responsible for the release of Insulin Growth Factor.

i thought insulin interfered with the release of GH?

 

[juve]

i thought insulin interfered with the release of GH?

that would be true but only in a very limited timefame.
cortisol is antagonistic to GH, and given that your body has not recovered (suppressed corticoids) from stressful excercise due to lack of nutrients (for purpose of argument let's say glucose) the GH response will be delayed. In fact, one study pointed that in a restricted dietary regimen, with no glucose PW GH secretion was delayed by 13 hours after excercise=bad. Cortisol levels are rampant! At the same time long periods of hypoinsulenamia have a negative impact upon hormonal production - T(test), T3(thyroid hormone), TSH(T4>T3 conversion), Leptin(peptide protein responsible for fat loss) delcine, all the while NPY (hunger) and SHBG (Test inhibiting hormone) rise. Hence the concept of refeed on CKD or carb meal PW.

 

[Babyfaced Assassin]

Ohashi posted some good articles there

It's pretty much explained in the first one

it's not all about an insulin spike and growing
it's about shuttleing nutrients, recovery and cortisol control too

 

[chewyxrage]

^

 

[CPA02]

this is probably one of the most important posts ive read in a while. Good job guys explaining how important post workout recovery really is..

 

[SoreArms]

Re: Re: The ultimate insulin thread

A minimal amount of insulin is necessary for aminoacid transport: MINIMUM!!!!!!! In fact so minimum that ingested protein itself induces enough of an insulin surge (very small, but nontheless) to be assimilated.
As a matter of fact concuming dextrose only causes a prmature spike - your protein has not even began the process of being digested (protein>peptide>aminoacid) while your blood sugar is rampant.
And cortisol antagonizing properties - once again minimum insulin; as soon as your body shifts to a process of being 'fed' cortisol production ceases and insulin itself suppresses the rest.

So far, every article I've read on this subject (since this post) promotes simple carb comsumption (maltodextrim & dextrose) post work out.

I think your point is interesting, care to elaborate and/or provide links to validate your point.

 

[Jandy]

Great read! Now I'm going to be up all night reading all those damn articles....

anyways.. I found this part of the article referring to necessary vitamins post workout very interesting:

However, as long as increased intakes of antioxidant vitamins and minerals are taken, antioxidant defenses can be strengthened to a point that more than makes up for the damage incurred during workouts. Vitamins C and E are especially helpful.

 

[bran987]

Yeah Jandy I know.. went out and spent $30 on C & E vits the day I read that

along with.. *sigh creatine and

*sigh chromium and

*sigh part of my retirement savings by the time I got to the register

 

[juve]

Re: Re: Re: The ultimate insulin thread

I think your point is interesting, care to elaborate and/or provide links to validate your point.

Oh my, please refer to post#16.

As far as vitamins C & E - their application purely derives from their ability to reduce serum cortisol levels, and to an extent reduce oxidative species produced from energy metabolisys. However r-ALA is a much more potent anti-oxidant, and should/could be used in conjunction with the two aforementioned.

 

[SoreArms]

Also, I want to make a distinction:
You might have got an idea that I advocate no glucose PW. If you reread my post you would see that I was simply rejecting the fallacious premiss that the reason for sugar PW is to shuttle aminos or blunt cortisol. Very much of your nutrition including PW depends on type of training, type of dieting, desired results (cosmetic, strength, endurance, speed)

So we are stuck with conclusion?

Great, that means I am going to have to do a lot of reading to figure this out several months from now.

Thanks though

 

[bran987]

well, I'm going to try a PWO shake purely protein/glutamine with C&E.. then 30 minutes later have just a little dextrose.. only while bulking. while cutting, no carbs till my first meal after working out. as to whether that's the right thing to do? I'm at a loss.

Juve said he could post links to tons of places with evidence that PWO carbs aren't necessary, but he doesn't seem to want to actually post them (which is his prerogative, of course).. soo.. I dunno. maybe we are stuck sorearms. I don't know how and where to find all the scientific articles these chem wizzes find.

 

[juve]

this is beyond me: can you read?
I suppose you can.
Do you deduce anything from reading?
Apparently not.

I am arguing agaist the premiss that glucose PW is a requisite or rather an efficient method of:
shuttling aminos
blunting cortisol spike.

WHERE DID I SAY NOT TO USE CARBS PW????????????????????
WHERE DID I SAY I WILL POST STUDIES THAT YOU IN FACT DON'T NEED GLUCOSE PW? I WAS REFERRING TO THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TONS OF STUDIES PROVING THIS AND THAT, BUT THEIR SOLE EXISTENSE WITHOUT THE CAPABILITY TO INTERPPRET OR INFER ANYTHING FROM THEM DOES NOT PROMOTE A DISCUSSION, AND DOES NOT HELP YOU IN ANY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


fuck me sideways

 

[bran987]

Re: Re: The ultimate insulin thread

This fallible premiss is what prompted everyone into believing that 80g's dextrose PW is optimal for growth - growth of what? adipocities? And all the malleable adherents of whoever procured this theory spread it around like a gangrene

A minimal amount of insulin is necessary for aminoacid transport: MINIMUM!!!!!!! In fact so minimum that ingested protein itself induces enough of an insulin surge (very small, but nontheless) to be assimilated.

that's where I thought you were saying protein alone is sufficient. apologies for putting words in your mouth.

you are right, I can barely read, and have never heard of this deducing stuff. this discussion is obviously beyond me, so I will leave it alone.

 

[juve]

The point is: if you simply want to exchange abstracts and articles then feel free by all means. I was hoping for a discussion (open FORUM) where everyone could exchange ideas regarding the issue - not the scientific postulates. I failed, my apologies; hope the opportunity cost of time spent reading my posts did not exceed your other planned actvities

peace

 

[bran987]

opportunity cost! finally a discussion I can understand. actually the opp. cost of reading your post was finishing my NPV analysis of this $100mil building in cali so I can tell them if they should use their money for this vs. the opp. cost of using the money for something else!

I would love to talk about it more. I think so far this is far from the "ultimate" insulin thread. I just think it has gone beyond what I understand, so I'll just bump it for now until I have another question.