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manny78 said:
I thought he was shooting at non-moving targets ?
He is. The 400 yard drop with a .223 53 grain MatchKing is 149" when starting at 1800 fps. 10 mph wind produces 53" of drift. The target better be tied down.
The sniper shootings
- Thread starter chesty
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He is. The 400 yard drop with a .223 53 grain MatchKing is 149" when starting at 1800 fps. 10 mph wind produces 53" of drift. The target better be tied down.
First the caliber .223 is a 5.56mm round. Now you can find that caliber in many different shell casings. So when I say the .223 and 5.56 are the same they are. The military designation is 5.56 and civilian is .223. The military uses ball ammo, armor piercing and incindary (sp). Yes, that round will kill a human and effectively out to 800 meters. You have to be damn good though.
Torso shots (upper body) are the choice since you are presented with the largest possible target. I can routinely hit a man sized target with an M16-A1 and A2 with iron sights from the prone position. It is required in the Marines. And if you have ever pulled targets without your ear plugs that round from 500 meter is still zinging and would pop your head open like a grape.
As for the weapon of choice, .308 out to 1500 meters, .50 out to mile or more, subsonic round of choice would be the winchester .454 (used in Vietnam out to 200 yards effectively)
If it is a sniper with training you would never see the barrel protrude from any hide as he would be back far enough to conceal the barrel from open view.
It sounds corny but watch the movie Sniper with Tom Berringer in it. It is based on events in Gysgt Hathcocks exploits from Vietnam (and everything shown for the most part is accurate, except for the theatrical ending) It will give you an idea of how effective and devastating a sniper can be.
Now for the more macaab end. When we would practice ranging targets we would safe are rifles (remove the bolts and there would be no ammo in the area) and then start ranging on humans all the way out to 1000 yards plus with our rifles and scopes. It is a very (without sounding nuts) euphoric/god like feeling. You have the power of life and death in your hands and they never know it. That is what makes sniper's so devastating. They can turn your life switch off without you ever knowing about it. And it is a rush and you don't even have to pull the trigger.
So, in that respect it could possibly be a redneck or two that are feeling the rush, but they are experienced however and not on shooting deer.
Yes, I'll bet the 25 dollars.
Torso shots (upper body) are the choice since you are presented with the largest possible target. I can routinely hit a man sized target with an M16-A1 and A2 with iron sights from the prone position. It is required in the Marines. And if you have ever pulled targets without your ear plugs that round from 500 meter is still zinging and would pop your head open like a grape.
As for the weapon of choice, .308 out to 1500 meters, .50 out to mile or more, subsonic round of choice would be the winchester .454 (used in Vietnam out to 200 yards effectively)
If it is a sniper with training you would never see the barrel protrude from any hide as he would be back far enough to conceal the barrel from open view.
It sounds corny but watch the movie Sniper with Tom Berringer in it. It is based on events in Gysgt Hathcocks exploits from Vietnam (and everything shown for the most part is accurate, except for the theatrical ending) It will give you an idea of how effective and devastating a sniper can be.
Now for the more macaab end. When we would practice ranging targets we would safe are rifles (remove the bolts and there would be no ammo in the area) and then start ranging on humans all the way out to 1000 yards plus with our rifles and scopes. It is a very (without sounding nuts) euphoric/god like feeling. You have the power of life and death in your hands and they never know it. That is what makes sniper's so devastating. They can turn your life switch off without you ever knowing about it. And it is a rush and you don't even have to pull the trigger.
So, in that respect it could possibly be a redneck or two that are feeling the rush, but they are experienced however and not on shooting deer.
Yes, I'll bet the 25 dollars.
Kalashnikov
New member
manny78 said:
I thought they called him "Murder Inc." ?
Actually, they (other Marines and US soldiers) called snipers in general Murder, Inc. Kind of in a degrading way; equating them to psychopaths who did not hesitate to kill.
Also I though "Sniper" had a lot of hollywood bullshit in it. For a realistic sniping scene (even though it was short range), watch "Way of the Gun", when the two kidnappers take the high ground and start laying down the funk with the Galil. The recoil was done correctly as well; when the camera shows a shot though the optics, the crosshair jerks violently upward simulating the recoil.
The only real theatrics was at the end. Hathcock actually shot an enemy sniper through the scope, made 1000 yard shots routinely, and did do some sniping for the CIA at least that is the way it appears. It was a shot at a general from about 500 yards in an open field. He crawled to the spot from about 1000 yards and it took him like 24 hours, made the shot whacked the dude and got away. The whole time the enemy was walking within inches from him while he was crawling to the spot.
Similar to the scene where he was in the open field and the dogs were sniffing around him.
Similar to the scene where he was in the open field and the dogs were sniffing around him.
Kalashnikov
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Chesty, I was not referring to the scope shot or the stalk that he made through the open ground. I've read "Marine Sniper" and Hatcock was able to do both of those things, so the realism is there. What I meant by hollywood bullshit was, for example, when the 60-gunner and the enemy grunt both shot eachother at the same time and it was all in slow-motion, etc. It was typical john woo hollywood bravado. I guess it's alright for entertainment purposes, buy I like realism a whole lot more.
Testosterone boy
New member
That movie was pretty good. I still say this team in Washington is pretty good.
Takes a whale of a shot to kill a man with a .223 at distance. Probably has to be in the area of the heart.
for the naysayers out there...how many big game animals have you killed? Anyone can punch holes in paper. I've got 6 guns that will put bullets through the same hole all day long at 100 yards. OK...I sold the .223.
Takes a whale of a shot to kill a man with a .223 at distance. Probably has to be in the area of the heart.
for the naysayers out there...how many big game animals have you killed? Anyone can punch holes in paper. I've got 6 guns that will put bullets through the same hole all day long at 100 yards. OK...I sold the .223.
Juice Moose
New member
I thought that you could fire a .223 from a fire arm calibered for 5.56, but you cannot fire a 5.56 from a fire arm calibered for .223, I just read that in an article about the new SG 551 and SG552 rifles.
Also I believe he may only be around 100 yards out, if he is using a suppresor he would still be accurate enough from that distance, and could still be hard to spot.
Another theory that I have been thinking about, is what if this guy is shooting from a vehicle, but not using a rifle, but instead he is using a hand gun chambered for the ,223 rifle cartridge, these can be very effective up to 200 yards+. He could hide this handgun in a jacket, or small bag or brief case.
Also I believe he may only be around 100 yards out, if he is using a suppresor he would still be accurate enough from that distance, and could still be hard to spot.
Another theory that I have been thinking about, is what if this guy is shooting from a vehicle, but not using a rifle, but instead he is using a hand gun chambered for the ,223 rifle cartridge, these can be very effective up to 200 yards+. He could hide this handgun in a jacket, or small bag or brief case.
Testosterone boy
New member
Even the lowly .223 would need a rifle barrel to achieve decent ballistics. Longer barrels equal better bullet speed. Give the pressure time to build and push . Much better accuracy too.
It depends on the casing as to whether or not one can be fired in another gun. 5.56 is the metric for .223 cal just like 7.62 is the same as .308. Now when you tack on the second designator such as 7.62 X 39 (AK-47) you then tell what chamber the round is designed for. I don't remember the designator for the 5.56 though. So it is the caliber 5.56 or.223, but what weapon fired it will remain a mystery until they are caught/killed.
chesty,
With all due respect, I differ with you on a couple of points. .223 REM and 5.56 NATO are considered to be interchangeable, but there are dimensional differences. Same with .308 WIN and 7.62 NATO. Any competent armorer will confirm it.
I said in an earlier post that the shooters were firing at medium range - probably no more than 300 yards due to diminished ballistics of the .223 over distance. That is within about 50 yards of your benchmark 500 meters, so we are saying the same thing. In that range, the .223 still has killing power - we agree.
I still do not believe that the shooter is a sniper. I believe he is a lone indiviudal with an axe to grind (in his mind), which makes it more difficult to stop him, since he would likely be employing tactics and movement that a professional would find not to be "textbook".
to manny78:
When I said they were moving targets, I meant that there is usually always some head movement even in a "stationary" target, making a head shot very low percentage vs. torso.
With all due respect, I differ with you on a couple of points. .223 REM and 5.56 NATO are considered to be interchangeable, but there are dimensional differences. Same with .308 WIN and 7.62 NATO. Any competent armorer will confirm it.
I said in an earlier post that the shooters were firing at medium range - probably no more than 300 yards due to diminished ballistics of the .223 over distance. That is within about 50 yards of your benchmark 500 meters, so we are saying the same thing. In that range, the .223 still has killing power - we agree.
I still do not believe that the shooter is a sniper. I believe he is a lone indiviudal with an axe to grind (in his mind), which makes it more difficult to stop him, since he would likely be employing tactics and movement that a professional would find not to be "textbook".
to manny78:
When I said they were moving targets, I meant that there is usually always some head movement even in a "stationary" target, making a head shot very low percentage vs. torso.
Ffactor
New member
IanStuart said:
Great movie!!
The other day the news had a segment on sniper training schools. A bunch of rednecks were crawling in a cornfiled in camouflage carrying their rifles. One guy looked like a beached whale. He was crawling, looked like he was gonna pass out from exhaustion, crawling a bit more, stopping again.....and I remeber watching this and thinking, "what the fuck are they doing?".
I think these sniper shootings have redneck written all over them although the al-qaeda theory is an interesting one.
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All do respect, the 5.56 and .223 are the same caliber. In fact I can take a 5.56 and fire it out of a bolt action. Same with the .308 M60 machine gune ammo (nato 7.62) You just don't do it because the tolerances are much looser and the powder is different. But in a pinch it will work. The other factor is that because of the tolerances, the round may not chamber in a sniper rifle. But they are the same round.
As for the 300 yards being about the same as 500 meters you are way off. 500 meters is equal to 546.81 yards. I have routinely hit targets accurately at 500 yards with the A1 and A2. And during desert storm my buddy's were whacking Republican guard at 800 meters with issue A2's. It would not be my first choice but it works.
Also, I shoot nato ammo out of my Remington .308P with no problem. Just not as accurate as my own loads or match ammo.
As for the 300 yards being about the same as 500 meters you are way off. 500 meters is equal to 546.81 yards. I have routinely hit targets accurately at 500 yards with the A1 and A2. And during desert storm my buddy's were whacking Republican guard at 800 meters with issue A2's. It would not be my first choice but it works.
Also, I shoot nato ammo out of my Remington .308P with no problem. Just not as accurate as my own loads or match ammo.
chesty,
You are correct on the meters/yards conversion--I had my arithmetic ass backwards. I still say 500 yards is a stretch for a .223 one-shot torso kill so lets agree to disagree.
My point about the differences in the rounds is that the dimensions are different and may not always be interchanged due to chamber dimensions and headspacing. You seem to agree on that point. There is a big difference between working in a pinch and being a suitable ammunition/rifle combination for precision shooting.
You are correct on the meters/yards conversion--I had my arithmetic ass backwards. I still say 500 yards is a stretch for a .223 one-shot torso kill so lets agree to disagree.
My point about the differences in the rounds is that the dimensions are different and may not always be interchanged due to chamber dimensions and headspacing. You seem to agree on that point. There is a big difference between working in a pinch and being a suitable ammunition/rifle combination for precision shooting.
You are correct on the dimensional change. Which is my point. They will work, but would not be a first choice.
As for range, I only speak from experience. I used to hate the M16 till I saw what damage it could do. True it doesn't have the weight to penetrate brush and fend off the wind, but it is effective.
Personally it should not be used over 500 yards/meters to ensure consistency in kill rates.
As for range, I only speak from experience. I used to hate the M16 till I saw what damage it could do. True it doesn't have the weight to penetrate brush and fend off the wind, but it is effective.
Personally it should not be used over 500 yards/meters to ensure consistency in kill rates.
Testosterone boy
New member
Hey all you military dudes!
Please tell us what caliber you are referring to when you toss out these military weapon names. You are turning this into a cliche with no civvies allowed.
Please tell us what caliber you are referring to when you toss out these military weapon names. You are turning this into a cliche with no civvies allowed.
Testosterone boy said:Hey all you military dudes!
Please tell us what caliber you are referring to when you toss out these military weapon names. You are turning this into a cliche with no civvies allowed.
Those I mentionned:
Diemaco C-8 (Canadian version of the M-4): 5.56 mm NATO
C-7 (M-16A1): 5.56mm
Blazer 93: 7.62mm NATO
McMillian Tactical: 12.70 mm (.50)
Kalashnikov
New member
Chesty, are you serious when you say you like the OICW?
Most Marines and other military I have talked to say that it's crap: too bulky, too heavy, relies on too much technology (rangefinding device, etc.); in short don't most people think we should just keep the M16A2 or perhaps go to M14?
Most Marines and other military I have talked to say that it's crap: too bulky, too heavy, relies on too much technology (rangefinding device, etc.); in short don't most people think we should just keep the M16A2 or perhaps go to M14?
Testosterone boy
New member
chesty said:
20mm? Hmmm...wonder what they do about the recoil? Oh...I forgot. It is for Marines. Likely to have in excess of 25,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy unless the case is "weird". I like it though...big bullets leave big holes.
I don't know anything about the technology, but a 20mm, woo hoo! Talk about fucking shit up!
Recoil ain't nothing a big as buffer assembly can't handle. I don't know whether or not it will actuallly be fielded it is in the development phase.
I would prefer to go back to the M14 myself.
Recoil ain't nothing a big as buffer assembly can't handle. I don't know whether or not it will actuallly be fielded it is in the development phase.
I would prefer to go back to the M14 myself.
Testosterone boy
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Put a couple 25 bags of lead shot over your shoulder and you can shoot bazookas off of it. OK...thats an exageration.
strangebrew
New member
he got another kill 
thebabydoc
New member
Not to restart this Israeli-conspiracy thing, but what about the Gallil? Sure it's large, but my understanding is that it is one of the most accurate long-distance assault rifles ever made.
Big Buck said:
Bullshit. I usually get 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 at the 500 yard line w/ a 5.56 round with open sights on my M-16 at a target smaller than a man....and I haven't had any formal sniper training yet.....
but you must add the stress factor, since this guy probably isn't a real trained snipper.
I do as well with the M16. My last qual I shot 9 out of 10 in the throat right where I was aiming at.
I was making the point that the guy had to be highly trained since that shot is difficult. Like hitting an apple from a 100 yards with an arrow which I can do as well.
(For people who are trained though it is fairly routine and easy to do.)
Most people were saying that this guy could learn to do that type of shooting in a few hours on top of hitting human targets and extinguishing their life force.
I was making the point that the guy had to be highly trained since that shot is difficult. Like hitting an apple from a 100 yards with an arrow which I can do as well.
(For people who are trained though it is fairly routine and easy to do.)
Most people were saying that this guy could learn to do that type of shooting in a few hours on top of hitting human targets and extinguishing their life force.
BigRedCat
New member
When I was in ROTC and we were qualifying on the M16 I was teamed up with this hot chick from another college and she was hitting damn close to dead center every time from aways back. Now this is the first time she had ever shot a high powered firearm. She said she use to shoot BB guns with her brothers growing up. So, case in point- it is not that hard to hit targets and kill them at long ranges.
On the other hand, I personally think these guys know what they are doing. There is really no point in debating weather or not certain calibers will kill at this and that range etc etc because they are clearly killing people at whatever range they are firing from and I doubt its more than 300 meters anyway. Most likely just across the parking lot from the target. The choice of ammo is secondary as it is clearly working just fine.
By the way, I love FN rifles, so sweet! I will get me a FN FAL one of these days!
On the other hand, I personally think these guys know what they are doing. There is really no point in debating weather or not certain calibers will kill at this and that range etc etc because they are clearly killing people at whatever range they are firing from and I doubt its more than 300 meters anyway. Most likely just across the parking lot from the target. The choice of ammo is secondary as it is clearly working just fine.
By the way, I love FN rifles, so sweet! I will get me a FN FAL one of these days!
Testosterone boy
New member
How many times do I have to say that anybody can punch paper. Thats like looking at a muscle magazine and saying..."yeah...I can do that."
Juice Moose
New member
Testosterone boy said:
www.magnumresearch.com/old/shootimes.html
Looks like decent velocity and accuracy to me.
S
Spartacus
Guest
hey all you Army men..lets keep this convo alive as I am learning a lot..I'm a WWII history buff and about all I know is the Krauts had the first assault rifles and their MG42 is still the same design today for the M60
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