The sniper shootings

[chesty]

This is not a serial killer or a mass murderer. This is the work of a military sniper fighting a war against his/her enemy. The muslim extremest's like Al Qaeda and such have declard that all Americans are military combatants.

This individual or pair has to be hunted by military sniper teams. Get a Marine/Army team together and go hunt this fucker.

The FBI, and every other agency is wrong about this guy!

The Tarot card they found, the note and the kid that was shot is just to throw them off to make them think they are dealing with a nut job. Quite the contrary, this is a cool headed, calculating individual/team with extensive training in sniping. They are as sane as you and I and believe they are fighting a war against their enemy in his homeland just as we would if we went to war in Iraq or elsewhere.

Given this, I say that they will rack up at least 50 kills before they get close to getting nailed.

As for the gas stations, it is not that they are standing still so much as they are well lit day or night. Especially at night. All of the kills and shots have been to the chest area and stomach. Most trained snipers won't go for a head shot at a great distance. These shots are coming from a minimum of 500 yards out to about 800 yards. Notice how no one ever hears the shots? And the cop that was across the street when the last guy got wasted never heard the shot. So you can safely say they are at a great range for the .223. Most likely an accurized AR-15 or a bolt action.

These guys don't live in the area and if you look at the map it would seem to indicate that it is probably a group of snipers given the distances the killings are from each other in some cases. We are being attacked and the gov't and media are too chicken shit to tell us.

Get ready boys and girls time to get it on!

 

[Lao Tzu]

Given this, I say that they will rack up at least 50 kills before they get close to getting nailed.

I found that part interesting. however, learning to snipe isn't something that takes years. it can be learned in a month by reading books & training.

Plus, people like the Son of Sam, Night stalker, ted bundy, etc all managed to avoid capture for years. Just because this guy can go 9 days w/o being arrested doesn't make him superman.

I wonder if he plans to stay in the area. That would be pretty stupid.

 

[Mdguy]

This is not a serial killer or a mass murderer. This is the work of a military sniper fighting a war against his/her enemy. The muslim extremest's like Al Qaeda and such have declard that all Americans are military combatants.

These guys don't live in the area and if you look at the map it would seem to indicate that it is probably a group of snipers given the distances the killings are from each other in some cases.

That's what I have been thinking all along...just think if they had cells in each state and simultaneously started doing this-pandemonium and mass hysteria-and that's their goal...

I already bet somebody 19 kills and they'll be caught, but that was just a guess on my part

 

[Fonz]

This is not a serial killer or a mass murderer. This is the work of a military sniper fighting a war against his/her enemy. The muslim extremest's like Al Qaeda and such have declard that all Americans are military combatants.

This individual or pair has to be hunted by military sniper teams. Get a Marine/Army team together and go hunt this fucker.

The FBI, and every other agency is wrong about this guy!

The Tarot card they found, the note and the kid that was shot is just to throw them off to make them think they are dealing with a nut job. Quite the contrary, this is a cool headed, calculating individual/team with extensive training in sniping. They are as sane as you and I and believe they are fighting a war against their enemy in his homeland just as we would if we went to war in Iraq or elsewhere.

Given this, I say that they will rack up at least 50 kills before they get close to getting nailed.

As for the gas stations, it is not that they are standing still so much as they are well lit day or night. Especially at night. All of the kills and shots have been to the chest area and stomach. Most trained snipers won't go for a head shot at a great distance. These shots are coming from a minimum of 500 yards out to about 800 yards. Notice how no one ever hears the shots? And the cop that was across the street when the last guy got wasted never heard the shot. So you can safely say they are at a great range for the .223. Most likely an accurized AR-15 or a bolt action.

These guys don't live in the area and if you look at the map it would seem to indicate that it is probably a group of snipers given the distances the killings are from each other in some cases. We are being attacked and the gov't and media are too chicken shit to tell us.

Get ready boys and girls time to get it on!

I agree with you.

One of the killings happenned 15 min from where I live.

The cops have no clue whatsoever.

One of the profilers even said the guy was probably a psycopath....LOL

You know its bad when the SAC ATF agent says the case
will be solved by a citizen eventually by an anonymous
call.

And yet they say the have over a 1000 leads? LOL

Fonz

 

[big_bad_buff]

Re: Re: The sniper shootings

this is a cool headed, calculating individual/team with extensive training in sniping[/B]

what the hell makes you think this? because the fucking news says it? any deer hunter could make these shots and way better, were did you here 500-800 yards? i heard from 100-200 max yards. any billy joe bob living in a trailer with a deer rifle could make these shots

 

[VicTusDeuS]

Cant they just look at video tapes from cameras at local stores in each of the areas where someone was killed. With all their experts they have looking over each of these tapes im sure they can find some distinct similarities.

 

[the nature boy]

i'm not sure if it's an al quaida guy, but its a guy who is very familiar with the area. Every place he's shot someone I'm sure he's been there before and scoped out a good place to shoot someone. He's not just going somewhere for the 1st time and taking a pot shot, this guy is somewhat thought out, especially with this escape route.

 

[chesty]

What the hell makes me say what I said? Training! And no not every deer hunter can make those shots. Making a shot with a .223 from 500 plus yards is like trying to hit an apple with an arrow from 100 yards.

No, you can't just watch videos and go shooting to become a sniper of any proficiency. Ted Bundy and Son of Sam didn't get caught because they were lucky.

I did not draw my conclusions from anything the news has said. In fact they for the most part have concluded this is a whack job.

I base my assumptions on what I have been taught and learned.

Training to be an effective sniper involves much more than shooting. You have to be able to range effectively, move without being seen, keep a cool head and more. True snipers have control of their fear, buck fever and more. I can tell that one or two of the respondents have not a clue about shooting/sniping human beings. But that is a good thing, no one should ever know what that is like.

I hope I am wrong and it is a nut case, but I am not holding out hope.

What makes me think the shots are 500 plus yards? The fact that no one has heard a shot! At 200 yards an AR-15 sounds like a big ass firecracker! At 500 the report and shockwave sound would be drowned out by the traffic and general suburban noise.

 

[Fonz]

LOL Chesty.....

The media is such a joke its not even funny.

Fonz

 

[BigRedCat]

There were witnesses who heard the shot from the 6th shooting. Either way the victim is hit 2 seconds or so before the shot is heard. I was discussing this with a friend of mine who was a sniper and we both are sort of undecided if it is a nut job or terrorism. Could be either but with 2 guys it SERIOUSLY leans towards terrorism. 2 guys dont go crazy together, that is very very rare. Plus, nut jobs usually kill a specific type- with these you have all types and races, all ages. They all have one thing in common, they are Americans. Why is no one thinking this could be terrorists? It seems like a pro sniper would use a better choice of round but then again they are using a very common round which helps them stay unknown. You cant hunt down every .223 owner, it would never work. Also, why not use a supressor? This whole thing really seems like rag heads to me.

 

[HumorMe]

I think all of this talk about a white van/truck in the area is just inconsistent. There are always panel vans/work vans around everywhere. A report said that the first "eyewitness" stated that and it was later learned that the person driving that vehicle happened to be in the area and never knew anybody had been shot. In fact, that person went to the police and said it was his vehicle that was "speeding" away from the area.

I'm with chesty on this one. I believe they are being shot at a considerable distance therefore the shot (sound) is delayed for a second or two and is throwing people off. One shot is the key to his success. You hear one shot and it's hard to discern where it is coming from but by firing two shots you can hone in on and find the direction it's coming from easy.

I don't know if 50 kills/wounded is possible, given that this is happening everyday, people will be paying attention and might see something before that happens but the police/ATF/FBI and others involved in the hunt have no clue what is happening or how to go about finding this person(s).

When these killings started, I thought maybe this person was using the sewer drains as cover like the killers of JFK did in Dallas. (I just threw that in to see if I could spark conspiracy theorists to respond).

Nature Boy......what is the mood in DC and the surrounding area? What are your friends saying about it?

 

[Fonz]

I think all of this talk about a white van/truck in the area is just inconsistent. There are always panel vans/work vans around everywhere. A report said that the first "eyewitness" stated that and it was later learned that the person driving that vehicle happened to be in the area and never knew anybody had been shot. In fact, that person went to the police and said it was his vehicle that was "speeding" away from the area.

I'm with chesty on this one. I believe they are being shot at a considerable distance therefore the shot (sound) is delayed for a second or two and is throwing people off. One shot is the key to his success. You hear one shot and it's hard to discern where it is coming from but by firing two shots you can hone in on and find the direction it's coming from easy.

I don't know if 50 kills/wounded is possible, given that this is happening everyday, people will be paying attention and might see something before that happens but the police/ATF/FBI and others involved in the hunt have no clue what is happening or how to go about finding this person(s).

When these killings started, I thought maybe this person was using the sewer drains as cover like the killers of JFK did in Dallas. (I just threw that in to see if I could spark conspiracy theorists to respond).

Nature Boy......what is the mood in DC and the surrounding area? What are your friends saying about it?

Ok, here is where things get interesting.

1. The speed of sound in air is 332m/s + 0.6*Temp(Celsuis)

So, assuming a 1.0-2.0s lag-time, thats roughly 347.0m
to 694.0m out. Assuming the Temp as 15C and a uniform
conical sound wave front.

Now all these leads to a vary interesting question:

Why on earth did he not use a sub-sonic round?

Fonz

 

[the nature boy]

Nature Boy......what is the mood in DC and the surrounding area? What are your friends saying about it?

people are kinda spooked as you can imagine. But fuck that. I coud give two shits. Of course I don't have kids or anything like that depending on me. But I live in a very developed area so I'm not sweating it. Your odds of getting killed in on the highway are still greater than getting killed by the sniper. I'm honestly thinking about pumping gas for people for $10. Why the fuck not? besides, people get killed in DC all the time, and that shit doesn't even make the evening news, now that you got this sniper everyone is all in a panic. The way I look at it, if get killed, I won't even know it. LIFE MUST GO ON.

 

[chesty]

If he or they are worth their training, they might delay the shootings for a few days, completely change location etc. If it is a group, they may all decided to take a target out at the same time. If that were to happen, it would confirm that we are dealing with an invading military.

Yeah, JFK, but do they have sewers out there that aren't full of muck and gunk?

 

[big_bad_buff]

What the hell makes me say what I said? Training! And no not every deer hunter can make those shots. Making a shot with a .223 from 500 plus yards is like trying to hit an apple with an arrow from 100 yards.

No, you can't just watch videos and go shooting to become a sniper of any proficiency. Ted Bundy and Son of Sam didn't get caught because they were lucky.

I did not draw my conclusions from anything the news has said. In fact they for the most part have concluded this is a whack job.

I base my assumptions on what I have been taught and learned.

Training to be an effective sniper involves much more than shooting. You have to be able to range effectively, move without being seen, keep a cool head and more. True snipers have control of their fear, buck fever and more. I can tell that one or two of the respondents have not a clue about shooting/sniping human beings. But that is a good thing, no one should ever know what that is like.

I hope I am wrong and it is a nut case, but I am not holding out hope.

What makes me think the shots are 500 plus yards? The fact that no one has heard a shot! At 200 yards an AR-15 sounds like a big ass firecracker! At 500 the report and shockwave sound would be drowned out by the traffic and general suburban noise.

the news claims sniper, and that's what everyone is saying, he has training, he is a pro, blah blah blah. i'm not saying he's not, just saying you dont have to be by far...it could be a 15 year old kid that's been shooting for a few years, fear has nothing to do with it , someone that kills people for fun i dont think fears anything.....i'm saying, if it was me, i wouldn't be driving by these places over and over, or hiking through the woods to pick a spot, i would go one time. make the shot, and get out before anyone knows what's going on...simple as that, get in fast, BANG, get out fast....you guys make it sound like he writes up some huge mission, and maps out everything on a map, and marks his shooting point by the inch, that is crazy....

 

[big_bad_buff]

people are kinda spooked as you can imagine. But fuck that. I coud give two shits. Of course I don't have kids or anything like that depending on me. But I live in a very developed area so I'm not sweating it. Your odds of getting killed in on the highway are still greater than getting killed by the sniper. I'm honestly thinking about pumping gas for people for $10. Why the fuck not? besides, people get killed in DC all the time, and that shit doesn't even make the evening news, now that you got this sniper everyone is all in a panic. The way I look at it, if get killed, I won't even know it. LIFE MUST GO ON.

BRO i'm so with you....charge 25 cents on the dollar pumped

 

[HumorMe]

Ok, here is where things get interesting.

1. The speed of sound in air is 332m/s + 0.6*Temp(Celsuis)

So, assuming a 1.0-2.0s lag-time, thats roughly 347.0m
to 694.0m out. Assuming the Temp as 15C and a uniform
conical sound wave front.

Now all these leads to a vary interesting question:

Why on earth did he not use a sub-sonic round?

Fonz

I'm not a wiz when it comes to all of the specifics that you wrote. I'm also not a wiz to the different types of ammo. What is a sub-sonic round and how does it work? Give me the skinny on it without a ton of detail. Short and sweet for the low-capacity brain level I have.

 

[chesty]

A sub-sonic round is not as lethal, especially with that small caliber. And it would limit the range at which he could shoot. And only a few can actually use the shock wave noise and the initial bullet crack to triangulate a location, given that all other noise is near nil.

speed of sound is = sqrt(gamma*R*T), where gamma = 1.4, R = the gas constant 1710 and T = temperature in Rankin.

And speed of sound at 70 degrees F. is approximately 1100ft/sec, therefore if the bullet is traveling at 3000 ft/sec and you hear the sound of the shock wave at 2 seconds, the distance is 2200 ft, and the person has already been dead for a second. Hence, he never heard it coming. 2200ft puts that round at about a little over 700 yards! Hence my earlier statements on range of shot and skill required.

Also, if the temp is cooler, the sound is speed is slower and the shooter is closer.

That is why you would be caught right away! Just driving to a spot taking the shot and leaving. You can bet your ass he/they are planning each kill and have scouted the area more than once. That is what makes a succesfull sniper.

Just based on the first report of the first kill I knew it was a sniper. And no a 15 year old wouldn't be this proficient. He could make the shot, but not like this sniper. And yes fear/nervousness, etc all play a part in sniping a human being.

 

[scruples]

I'm not a wiz when it comes to all of the specifics that you wrote. I'm also not a wiz to the different types of ammo. What is a sub-sonic round and how does it work? Give me the skinny on it without a ton of detail. Short and sweet for the low-capacity brain level I have.

my understanding is that w/subsonic ammo you do not have the added "crack" from the bullet breaking the sound barrier...

i don't know if a .223 round is available subsonic

 

[FarBeyondDriven]

people get killed in DC all the time, and that shit doesn't even make the evening news, now that you got this sniper everyone is all in a panic. The way I look at it, if get killed, I won't even know it. LIFE MUST GO ON.

True words of wisdom. All of NOVA, MD and DC would be shut down. I am more likely going to get killed on the D.C. Beltway or driving up 295.

 

[BigRedCat]

subsonic is almost silent. Yeah you can get subsonic in many calibers.
http://www.gunrunner.com/Engle.html

I think they just dont give a fuck if anyone hears it- more proof of a terrorist.

 

[the nature boy]

True words of wisdom. All of NOVA, MD and DC would be shut down. I am more likely going to get killed on the D.C. Beltway or driving up 295.

dude, you of all people know how those fuckers drive! especially up in Mrrrlyn.

 

[HumorMe]

people are kinda spooked as you can imagine. But fuck that. I coud give two shits. Of course I don't have kids or anything like that depending on me. But I live in a very developed area so I'm not sweating it. Your odds of getting killed in on the highway are still greater than getting killed by the sniper. I'm honestly thinking about pumping gas for people for $10. Why the fuck not? besides, people get killed in DC all the time, and that shit doesn't even make the evening news, now that you got this sniper everyone is all in a panic. The way I look at it, if get killed, I won't even know it. LIFE MUST GO ON.

I'm sure what we see on TV when they are interviewing people about what it's like they are only showing the ones who are paranoid just to incite the hype and sensationalism this story has created. I know the chances are slim but you must admit it does enter your mind if you have pulled into a gas station around those areas lately. True, you won't even know if it happens but I don't think you can be that nonchalante about it. Man, I think about you all every day now and hope these senseless acts of killings stop soon and you all stay safe. I have several relatives in the DC area so my concern is for them too!

 

[scruples]

subsonic is almost silent. Yeah you can get subsonic in many calibers.
http://www.gunrunner.com/Engle.html

I think they just dont give a fuck if anyone hears it- more proof of a terrorist.

thanks...

learn something new every day

 

[big_bad_buff]

let em go a little while, lower the population a little...J/K Pussies

 

[the nature boy]

2 things to add

If you live in the "sniper area" BUY GAS IN THE FRIGGING HOOD!! If it's either a terrorist or a crazy white man there's no way they'd go shoot people there. I'm serious.

And second, if it's a terrorist, he'll get caught by a citizen. A middle eastern dude sneaking around is going to draw suspicion even before the sniper began killing people.

 

[HumorMe]

thanks...

learn something new every day

Me too! Thanks everybody for explaining that.

 

[BigRedCat]

It doesn't have to be a middle eastern dude. There are plenty of black muslims and plenty of white looking muslims. Its not like he would be dressed in raghead clothes. Remember a month back they busted a terror ring up in Seattle being run by a black muslim? They are everywhere. Must be training for something.

 

[KHMER ROGUE]

2 things to add

If you live in the "sniper area" BUY GAS IN THE FRIGGING HOOD!! If it's either a terrorist or a crazy white man there's no way they'd go shoot people there. I'm serious.

And second, if it's a terrorist, he'll get caught by a citizen. A middle eastern dude sneaking around is going to draw suspicion even before the sniper began killing people.

LOL, I didn't know there were any hoods in NOVA. I remember my brother used to live next to a spanish 'hood but it wasn't that bad. Keep in mind, when you say 'hood, the image of Harlem or South Central comes to my mind.

 

[the nature boy]

KR - oh there's latino and asian places, or go into DC. Plus places like that are usually all buildings and structures, this guy is obviously in the woods. So buy gas in heavily industrialized areas. It's very simple.

HumorMe- thanks for your thoughts bro. that's very nice of you. But man, I don't give a shit about this sniper. I could die in my sleep tonight, so I say what the fuck. I'm going to an all day block party in DC tomorrow (even though it's raining) and I'm going to have a blast and get faced and not even think about the sniper one bit. I aint' getting killed by this guy. And if I do get killed, then I guess that's my time to go then.

People in fucked up places in isreal or beruit or bosnia.... those fuckers still live their lives. People in other places got it way more rough than me. Life goes on for them, it goes on for me too.

 

[the nature boy]

<meanwhile I'm boarding up my windows and hiding in the basement>



j/k

 

[BodhiDharma]

KR - oh there's latino and asian places, or go into DC. Plus places like that are usually all buildings and structures, this guy is obviously in the woods. So buy gas in heavily industrialized areas. It's very simple.

HumorMe- thanks for your thoughts bro. that's very nice of you. But man, I don't give a shit about this sniper. I could die in my sleep tonight, so I say what the fuck. I'm going to an all day block party in DC tomorrow (even though it's raining) and I'm going to have a blast and get faced and not even think about the sniper one bit. I aint' getting killed by this guy. And if I do get killed, then I guess that's my time to go then.

People in fucked up places in isreal or beruit or bosnia.... those fuckers still live their lives. People in other places got it way more rough than me. Life goes on for them, it goes on for me too.

are you going to blocktoberfest in arlington ?

 

[the nature boy]

yeah. to bad it'll be all rainy. I don't care though.

 

[HumorMe]

HumorMe- thanks for your thoughts bro. that's very nice of you. But man, I don't give a shit about this sniper. I could die in my sleep tonight, so I say what the fuck. I'm going to an all day block party in DC tomorrow (even though it's raining) and I'm going to have a blast and get faced and not even think about the sniper one bit. I aint' getting killed by this guy. And if I do get killed, then I guess that's my time to go then.

People in fucked up places in isreal or beruit or bosnia.... those fuckers still live their lives. People in other places got it way more rough than me. Life goes on for them, it goes on for me too.

I know you can't be held hostage over something like this. They released the name of the guy that was killed today. I think he was from Pennsylvania and he was probably filling his car up with gas to head home to his six children. That's the sad part! If I was living there, I would probably have the same attitude but when I'm far away like I am(not real far but wish I was further), the only visions I have are people in mass hysteria although I know that's not true. Have fun at the party!

 

[big_bad_buff]

so you guys are sure it's the sand monkeys? i dont get it...hell it might be, who knows

 

[big_bad_buff]

subsonic is almost silent. Yeah you can get subsonic in many calibers.
http://www.gunrunner.com/Engle.html

I think they just dont give a fuck if anyone hears it- more proof of a terrorist.

just went to that sight....and read: This round is also free of harmful fillers: HA! HA! HA!

 

[BigRedCat]

Oh man, why do the snipers have to be wearing System of a Down t-shirts?!!! How bout Marilyn Manson instead- he gets tons of bad press anyway. hehe. As long as they aren't wearing my bands t-shirts.

 

[chesty]

The terrorists don't care that it is after 9/11 and the dudes ain't checking out gas stations, they are checking out hides (what we call are places of hiding to shoot from. You scout the intended spot of the kill from a distance through your scope or spotting scope. White dudes, black dudes whatever, I am sure they are not sporting any beards and shit like that.

These guys aren't doing it for the attention, they are doing it cause it is their job as part of the enemey military.

 

[scruples]

The terrorists don't care that it is after 9/11 and the dudes ain't checking out gas stations, they are checking out hides (what we call are places of hiding to shoot from. You scout the intended spot of the kill from a distance through your scope or spotting scope. White dudes, black dudes whatever, I am sure they are not sporting any beards and shit like that.

These guys aren't doing it for the attention, they are doing it cause it is their job as part of the enemey military.

that is a very intriguing take on this whole thing

unfortunately, i don't believe it is true

it is being committed by americans

 

[the nature boy]

you think the terrorists would bother leaving the tarot card with the hand written message I am God?

Since I watch CSI I'm gonna say it's a gun enthusiast who's gone insane. the type of weapon from what I hear is not your normal rifle. The calibre is different than most US weapons. I bet this dude has a weapon he bought from europe or someshit.

 

[chesty]

Maybe. But we do have American Al Qaeda and Taliban members. Johnny Walker, the Muslim dude in Washington, the other Americans they have caught, etc...

I hope it is not true either, but I am betting on the fact that it is true.

 

[the nature boy]

I hope it is not true either, but I am betting on the fact that it is true.

oh really? care to make it interesting?

 

[chesty]

Yeah,
First, the round is a very common American round. the .223 or more commonly known as the 5.56mm (Nato round) We use that round for everything from plinking to hunting.

Yes, If I was a sniper in the military killing off the enemy I would use any means available to through off the enemy. So the tarot card and kid being shot along with the note is a good way to do it.

I say he'll/they'll get to 50 before someone gets close. All upper body shots. What are you thinking of?

Wonder why they haven't told us the ballistics are the same for each round? Maybe they have, but all I remember hearing is that it is the same type of round. Would be nice to know if it is the same rifle or different ones.

 

[the nature boy]

ok, so you know more than me. then lets make a wager on whether its muslim related or not. what do you say?

 

[chesty]

what do we wager?

I am not saying he/they are muslim by blood, but that they are terrorists none the less fighting in the supposed holy war against us infidells.

Let me know and I will read it in the morning.

 

[BigRedCat]

I tend to agree with chesty on this one. Since there seems to be rumors of 2 guys operating together that says to me military. Anyone that knows about sniping knows they usually operate in teams. I just dont get why the media hasn't caught on to this yet. It could very well be some crazy white hicks who went nuts but dont you find it just a little strange that this is happening now? With all the other terror BS going on? Sounds like some muslim fanatics to me. They have stated clearly that they are at WAR with all Americans. This is psycholgically more damaging than going haywire at the mall with an AK. You never know who is gonna get hit next. Maybe its just a game between some sick fuck friends. Who knows. Not the cops apparently.

 

[big_bad_buff]

Yeah,
First, the round is a very common American round. the .223 or more commonly known as the 5.56mm (Nato round) We use that round for everything from plinking to hunting.

Yes, If I was a sniper in the military killing off the enemy I would use any means available to through off the enemy. So the tarot card and kid being shot along with the note is a good way to do it.

I say he'll/they'll get to 50 before someone gets close. All upper body shots. What are you thinking of?

Wonder why they haven't told us the ballistics are the same for each round? Maybe they have, but all I remember hearing is that it is the same type of round. Would be nice to know if it is the same rifle or different ones.

i think chesty is behind it, he seems to think he knows exacly what's going on LOL

 

[BigRedCat]

'THESE ARE TERRORISTS'
Sat Oct 12, 3:27 AM ET

By STEVE DUNLEAVY

WASHINGTON, D.C.

LARRY Johnson, former CIA agent, former State Department agent, said loudly and clearly: "At the end of the day, we have to give some credence that there is a terrorist threat."

Johnson was responding to the fact that the Montgomery monster's latest hit was grimly performed by two human beings in that now well-known white panel van - facts that might well suggest a terrorist attack.

"I personally think it is a jihad, rather than a crazy nut," Johnson, a veteran counterintelligence expert, said.

Jim Kallstrom, the former boss of the FBI (news - web sites) in New York who investigated the downing of TWA 880, does not dismiss the theory either.

"This is a different situation if there are two people involved in the shootings," he said.

"If there are two, it is unusual. Two people do not have parallel psychoses. If there are two involved, I would have to lean towards a conspiracy."

Kallstrom said it's strange that two people could work together bonded by the idea of committing faceless assassinations.

"I'm not on the ground there, so I don't want to second guess cops who are doing a great job," he said. "But two assassins means to some degree a conspiracy - and conspiracy leads to something else."

What's uncanny about the past 10 days is that a gunman and perhaps a co-conspirator have held the capital of this country prisoner.

The Washington area is completely paralyzed.

Schools have canceled outdoor activities - some have even papered over their windows.

And the experts, who fear that genius is at work - evil as it is - also fear that this may very well be the work of more than one lone nut case. They are now left to ponder the viciously indelible images from today's pitiful murder scene.

First of all, there's the tragic picture of the gas nozzle in a gas tank of the silver-blue Buick owned by the man who was mindlessly slaughtered.

Second are the sightings of guys wearing jackets that dramatically, and possibly sadly, said "FBI Anti-terrorist Squad."

And then there is this image of law enforcement - FBI or local police, I don't know - wearing ski masks. That's something I've only seen previously in Ireland on the British anti-terrorist Special Forces making anonymous patrols.

This city, this country, has not come to grips with the fact that one lone gunman, two lone gunman, or jihad can close down the capital of this country.

In a terrible way, we have to recognize, as a colleague of mine said, 10 gunman doing the same thing could close down the country.

What we are seeing is ordinary people having their lives terminated in grimly extraordinary ways.

If this murderer stopped shooting, I would gladly be his final victim.
-----



Uh huh. As I said. Give it time, the dumb ass cops will realize what they are dealing with.

 

[scruples]

Yeah,
First, the round is a very common American round. the .223 or more commonly known as the 5.56mm (Nato round) We use that round for everything from plinking to hunting.

Yes, If I was a sniper in the military killing off the enemy I would use any means available to through off the enemy. So the tarot card and kid being shot along with the note is a good way to do it.

I say he'll/they'll get to 50 before someone gets close. All upper body shots. What are you thinking of?

Wonder why they haven't told us the ballistics are the same for each round? Maybe they have, but all I remember hearing is that it is the same type of round. Would be nice to know if it is the same rifle or different ones.

i was under the assumption that ballistics proved each round was from the same rifle

but that may be media hype

 

[fallenangel]

all i know is that it'll be hard to catch this guy now. The best clue they had was that he seemed to develop a pattern of shooting near to big roads and heading down them but after the shutting off roads yesterday he knows the fbi are onto that trick and will likely disgard it

 

[the nature boy]

what do we wager?

I am not saying he/they are muslim by blood, but that they are terrorists none the less fighting in the supposed holy war against us infidells.

Let me know and I will read it in the morning.

$100. cash, sent via USPS w/ confirmation.

and for the sake of clarity, he doesn't have to be muslim by blood. But he has to be somehow affiliated with a muslim organization. Let me know what you think.

 

[knight69]

i think nature boy is going to be 100.00 richer!!

 

[casavant]

Re: Re: The sniper shootings

I found that part interesting. however, learning to snipe isn't something that takes years. it can be learned in a month by reading books & training.

Truly skilled snipers spend years honing their craft.

 

[manny78]

This is not a serial killer or a mass murderer. This is the work of a military sniper fighting a war against his/her enemy. The muslim extremest's like Al Qaeda and such have declard that all Americans are military combatants.

This individual or pair has to be hunted by military sniper teams. Get a Marine/Army team together and go hunt this fucker.

The FBI, and every other agency is wrong about this guy!

The Tarot card they found, the note and the kid that was shot is just to throw them off to make them think they are dealing with a nut job. Quite the contrary, this is a cool headed, calculating individual/team with extensive training in sniping. They are as sane as you and I and believe they are fighting a war against their enemy in his homeland just as we would if we went to war in Iraq or elsewhere.

Given this, I say that they will rack up at least 50 kills before they get close to getting nailed.

As for the gas stations, it is not that they are standing still so much as they are well lit day or night. Especially at night. All of the kills and shots have been to the chest area and stomach. Most trained snipers won't go for a head shot at a great distance. These shots are coming from a minimum of 500 yards out to about 800 yards. Notice how no one ever hears the shots? And the cop that was across the street when the last guy got wasted never heard the shot. So you can safely say they are at a great range for the .223. Most likely an accurized AR-15 or a bolt action.

These guys don't live in the area and if you look at the map it would seem to indicate that it is probably a group of snipers given the distances the killings are from each other in some cases. We are being attacked and the gov't and media are too chicken shit to tell us.

Get ready boys and girls time to get it on!

Marines should work in collaboration with cops. Marines alone know shit about investigations.

NOW the guy isn't a real snipper. From what I've been told, his shots were coming mostly from 150 ft....... thats far away of 800 yards ..... lol I imagine the poor guy trying to shoot at 800 yard with a .223 riffle. A real snipper would be using something like .300 or anything similar, especially for long range shooting. And if he's planning to mess in the area for an extended period of time he would most likely use a silencer, at least. Maybe subsonic ammo for short range killing. This guy/guys is/are just good hunters....

 

[chesty]

The report of one shot being heard was that it was well after the victim was shot. Someone mentioned two seconds. Plus, 150 is barely the length of my backyard. Given this, and the fact that the cororner has said the shots were from and extreme range.

Marines do know how to investigate. And when you are hunting snipers, you use snipers, not cops eating donuts.

Also, the M16-A2 or more commonly known as the HBar, (same as the AR-15A2) has a maximum effective range of 800 meters. Every Marine is required to qualify out to 500 meters (about 550 yards) with the M16. By hitting a B-mod target (human sized and shaped black silhouette) When I qaulified in Okinawa I hit that target 9 out of 10 times in the same spot from the prone position at 500 yards.

The M16 for all the misgivings about it is quite effective out to 800 meters on humans.

If they were truly shooting at 150 feet they would have been caught by now.

Let's make it 25.00 (I ain't rich, and I could lose) But you have to state who you think it is too.

 

[manny78]

The report of one shot being heard was that it was well after the victim was shot. Someone mentioned two seconds. Plus, 150 is barely the length of my backyard. Given this, and the fact that the cororner has said the shots were from and extreme range.

Marines do know how to investigate. And when you are hunting snipers, you use snipers, not cops eating donuts.

Also, the M16-A2 or more commonly known as the HBar, (same as the AR-15A2) has a maximum effective range of 800 meters. Every Marine is required to qualify out to 500 meters (about 550 yards) with the M16. By hitting a B-mod target (human sized and shaped black silhouette) When I qaulified in Okinawa I hit that target 9 out of 10 times in the same spot from the prone position at 500 yards.

The M16 for all the misgivings about it is quite effective out to 800 meters on humans.

If they were truly shooting at 150 feet they would have been caught by now.

Let's make it 25.00 (I ain't rich, and I could lose) But you have to state who you think it is too.

Personally, if I had to do this my weapon of choice would be a bolt action riffle (Blazer 93, Parker-Hale would be on my shopping list) or maybe a M-14. Of course it's possible with a M-16A2 but why take a chance ? On the other hand, if he's really shooting from 150 yard, I would rather use a Colt M-4 or anything compact. Once again with a silencer. I cant imagine shooting from so close and not being caught yet. Cops must be dumb there.

Who it is ? ANother McVeigh freak. And he's not gonna be caught alive. Forget baout that.

BTW when you qualify in the Marines, are you shooting with the 3.4x scope on it ?

 

[chesty]

No. We use iron sights.

My weapon of choice would be the M4A2 (I think it is, not sure) It is a Remington .308, free floating heavy barrel, accurized, trigger work, etc. It has a 10 or 20 power mil dot reticle scope. And is effective out to 1500 yards.

Or if you really wanted to confound them, you could use the McMillan .50 cal sniper system used by the Marines, Navy and Army. It has an effective range of over a mile.

 

[the nature boy]

Let's make it 25.00 (I ain't rich, and I could lose) But you have to state who you think it is too.

okay, 25 it is. I say it's white people.

 

[-SD-]

Personally, if I had to do this my weapon of choice would be a bolt action riffle (Blazer 93, Parker-Hale would be on my shopping list) or maybe a M-14. Of course it's possible with a M-16A2 but why take a chance ? On the other hand, if he's really shooting from 150 yard, I would rather use a Colt M-4 or anything compact. Once again with a silencer. I cant imagine shooting from so close and not being caught yet. Cops must be dumb there.

Who it is ? ANother McVeigh freak. And he's not gonna be caught alive. Forget baout that.

BTW when you qualify in the Marines, are you shooting with the 3.4x scope on it ?

No scope, ghost ring with normal dovetail sights only.

 

[chesty]

Rednecks? No affiliation with any muslim or Taliban/Al Qaeda group right?

 

[HumorMe]

I say it's white people.

Can you be a little more specific like his height and weight and hair color?

 

[knight69]

fbi on news said profile, white, age 30 to55, height 5ft 8in to 6ft 2 in average build, and could pass for your neighbor next door, and blends in well w/ public>?????????????

 

[big_bad_buff]

fbi on news said profile, white, age 30 to55, height 5ft 8in to 6ft 2 in average build, and could pass for your neighbor next door, and blends in well w/ public>?????????????

that's about half the people in the united states

 

[the nature boy]

Rednecks? No affiliation with any muslim or Taliban/Al Qaeda group right?

no affiliation. you got the whole muslim/taliban/al qaeda thing covered even if they are white, and I got any OTHER white people left.

cool?

 

[knight69]

so!!are you saying a black man is not SMART enough to pull this off??

 

[the nature boy]

no, I'm not saying that at all. But lets be honest here, black people don't normally pull this kind of shit. I'm saying they're not crazy enough to pull that off.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Heres a theory. Look at the timing and the geographics. Looks political to me. This is the work of top caliber pros. 8 kills with 10 shots with a .223 caliber bullet from a distance. That is very, very good. Shooting at living, breathing things is much different than shooting at paper on the range. Much different.

Who would stand the most to gain from this activity? I'm thinking Israel. I would say there is a 1 in 5 chance of Israelian snipers doing it. But their backgrounds won't show any connection with Israel. Weapon? Remington Model 700 heavy barrel with "home made" muzzle suppression. They can't take any chance of an Israelian connection being made so military type weapons can not be used.

 

[The Almighty]

Why Israel? We only give them billions upon billions of dollars each year...what would they have to gain?

 

[Testosterone boy]

Why Israel? We only give them billions upon billions of dollars each year...what would they have to gain?

Who stands the most to gain from weakening the Middle East? Israel.
If the snipers enjoy continued success, it will help move enthusiasm for an Iraqi invasion since people are thinking it is the work of terrorists.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Let's use common sense.

if it was terrorism...they would be funded. They'd have bosses and tons of material support.

So they'd have access to tons of vehicles. So after each shooting, they'd dump the white van and drive a black camry. Throwing them off more. And have tons of money to fly to differnet parts of the country the same day and shoot people elsewhere. Also why not recruit more snipers? 9/11 had 19 people. Why not make it even larger this time, have 25 snipers all across the country. The country would go to a standstill, no??

Probably 2 dumb militia members pissed off at the world. You knew McVeigh and Nichols wouldn't be the first nor the last.

-= nav =-

Agreed...it would also be piss poor timing. Does anyone think the terrorists actually want us to invade Iraq with a full head of steam? Keeping a loose noose around the neck of Iraq is insurance in my opinion. But then...I can't think like a terrorist. Surely they have to realize they can't win if go to war in the Middle East. Hell...we could vaporize the region in a few hours.

 

[chesty]

They want us to attack, then they can attack Israel who in turn attacks them and then its us against them. They may not win, but they can do some serious harm for a long time to come.

Israel stands the least to gain by this. They have enough problems as it is.

 

[ATrollFromTheFatBoard]

I don't care who it is as long as it stops

I go up there to work 3-4 days a week. The hotel I stay in is right next to the Ramada Inn the cops were camping in. I walk/jog all around that block after work every week. I was just in that gas station using the ATM machine. If they had done it 24 hours earlier, I would have been just a few yards away eating breakfast!!

One thing I can say for sure is, there are no "woods" around there. A few trees, yes, but it isn't any thick woods. And it seems to me the guy would have to have been across the street. If you aren't across the street you have to cross 4 lanes of traffic, wait at a light, or drive all the way around the block to get out onto 95 again. (This from someone who is chronically late getting to work and therefore knows the fastest ways back onto the highway!)

I know a lot of the people working in that area and I am glad they are all OK. I really feel bad for the ones who weren't so lucky.

At least he shouldn't go back to that same area again. I hope he doesn't decide to move down the road a little closer to the places I work.

Makes me feel creepy that the last time I was jogging around there, I might have actually passed this guy scoping out the place and not even known it.

 

[BigRedCat]

They could be doing this while moving, in that case you are definately dealing with some guys with training. I dont understand why so many of you think its rednecks. I have read reports of ex CIA agents that think McVae was setup so I wouldn't necessarily use that as a comparison. Remember that we are at war right now, with the extremists muslims. It is essentialy a war of Muslims vs. Jews(Isreal) and so is timeless in that respect. Make no mistake, if Sadaam fucks with Isreal(such as chemical weapons attacks which he could very well do) then Israel has the balls to nuke them. They are the ballsiest country there is frankley. This sniper situation seems like an advance attack strategy. Think of it this way, if you have cells around the country waiting to be activated and you have one doing this sniper thing- well that makes people in that part of the country all freaked out. Maybe the tarot card was a plant to throw off the cops because the goal here for the cells is 1.Kill Americans. Doesn't matter how but just kill them. If it is revelead to be terrorist then the feds jump in not to mention special committe's etc. So...if you can distract the cops into thinking its a nut job then you can go on killing and meanwhile the citizens are freaked out and aren't blaming the muslims for it. It is about psychological disruption of our hum drum safe lives. Its working very well. Why not use a supressor? They really dont care or need to use one. They have gotten away evidence free so far haven't they. Its because they are on the move I think. One guy driving and another sniping. The driver stops long enough to get the shot off(explains the shell that was found) and they bail. Pretty easy. Also explains the rifle choice, you cannot really do that sort of moving hit with a "true" sniper rifle, they are too long. However a AR-15 with a compact stock would work perfect. Just my opinion. Here is the sweetest sniper rifles for you budding snipers:
http://www.mcmillanrifles.com/50_CAL_BMG.htm#SPORTER & TACTICAL

Or if your on a budget get yourself a Remington 700 PSS, put some leupold rings and bases on it, and top it off with a Leupold Veri-X II 3-9x40mm Tactical scope. You have an excellent tactical rifle for around $1000 USD, total cost.

Someday I will have some land out in the midwest where I can set up targets of N'Sync and Michael Bolton and practice sniping. Hehe. Disclaimer: Michael Bolton and N'Sync are actually really really cool and I love them! You here that police!!

 

[the nature boy]

They want us to attack, then they can attack Israel who in turn attacks them and then its us against them. They may not win, but they can do some serious harm for a long time to come.

Israel stands the least to gain by this. They have enough problems as it is.

well??? do you want to bet or not?

 

[the nature boy]

They could be doing this while moving, in that case you are definately dealing with some guys with training. I dont understand why so many of you think its rednecks. I have read reports of ex CIA agents that think McVae was setup so I wouldn't necessarily use that as a comparison. Remember that we are at war right now, with the extremists muslims. It is essentialy a war of Muslims vs. Jews(Isreal) and so is timeless in that respect. Make no mistake, if Sadaam fucks with Isreal(such as chemical weapons attacks which he could very well do) then Israel has the balls to nuke them. They are the ballsiest country there is frankley. This sniper situation seems like an advance attack strategy. Think of it this way, if you have cells around the country waiting to be activated and you have one doing this sniper thing- well that makes people in that part of the country all freaked out. Maybe the tarot card was a plant to throw off the cops because the goal here for the cells is 1.Kill Americans. Doesn't matter how but just kill them. If it is revelead to be terrorist then the feds jump in not to mention special committe's etc. So...if you can distract the cops into thinking its a nut job then you can go on killing and meanwhile the citizens are freaked out and aren't blaming the muslims for it. It is about psychological disruption of our hum drum safe lives. Its working very well. Why not use a supressor? They really dont care or need to use one. They have gotten away evidence free so far haven't they. Its because they are on the move I think. One guy driving and another sniping. The driver stops long enough to get the shot off(explains the shell that was found) and they bail. Pretty easy. Also explains the rifle choice, you cannot really do that sort of moving hit with a "true" sniper rifle, they are too long. However a AR-15 with a compact stock would work perfect. Just my opinion. Here is the sweetest sniper rifles for you budding snipers:
http://www.mcmillanrifles.com/50_CAL_BMG.htm#SPORTER & TACTICAL

Or if your on a budget get yourself a Remington 700 PSS, put some leupold rings and bases on it, and top it off with a Leupold Veri-X II 3-9x40mm Tactical scope. You have an excellent tactical rifle for around $1000 USD, total cost.

Someday I will have some land out in the midwest where I can set up targets of N'Sync and Michael Bolton and practice sniping. Hehe. Disclaimer: Michael Bolton and N'Sync are actually really really cool and I love them! You here that police!!

maybe so, but a true muslim would never leave a tarot card that said "I am God." That is like complete and total blasphemy to those that are hardcore muslims.

 

[ImSoBig]

my best assumption is that it could be a white muslim guy like john walker, instead of either a muslim person or a white guy,

 

[ImSoBig]

maybe so, but a true muslim would never leave a tarot card that said "I am God." That is like complete and total blasphemy to those that are hardcore muslims.

good point, im still sticking to the SON OF SAM TYPE, a white lunatic.

 

[posthuman]

Yup,it's just a lone loony with a personal agenda.Not a big conspiracy.

 

[Hangfire]

Just a few observations about this ongoing discussion:

There is no way a medical examiner could determine the range of the shot from the wound. Any ME who says he can is full of shit. There are just too many variables during the event that make that kind of statement pure hogwash.

Absent material evidence, profilers are guessing, just like everybody else.

If the shots were made from a truck in close proximity, I think someone would notice a rifle barrel protruding from a vehicle. I think all of this white truck stuff is wishful thinking.

.223 is not quite the same as 5.56 NATO, but close enough for the purpose of this discussion. Maximum effective range and one-shot killing range are two different things. Most of the victims are being KILLED with one shot to the torso. If it really is a .223 projectile, I suspect the range is around 200-300 yards, maximum.

A subsonic round does not have the velocity needed to kill at a range that would be safe for the shooter. The effectiveness of the .22 caliber round is a product of velocity. A suppressor would adversely affect accuracy and is not a good choice for precise shooting.

For medium-to-long range precision shooting, an off-the-rack AR15 type rifle is not the best choice for accuracy. A bolt action rifle is preferable where accuracy is a consideration. Likewise, the .223 round is not the best choice and really makes no sense for a professional, or even a moderately trained person. The next step up in caliber is the logical choice due to projectile weight and velocity.

I agree that a terrorist cell would be well-funded enough that they would have the proper equipment. IMHO, this all points to an individual with some shooting experience who can make shots in the medium ranges. It really is not that difficult.

The suggestion that the military send out counter-sniper teams is not a realistic one, since there is no reasonable contained area of operation that can be defined. That is the problem with urban settings.

I am--at best--a recreational shooter who can consistently make 200-yard shots in the 8-ring with iron sights on a 55-year-old WWII rifle and 46-year-old eyes. I say that to make the point that the shooter doesn't necessarily need to have any more training than that to be effective at what he/she is doing.

 

[manny78]

Just my opinion. Here is the sweetest sniper rifles for you budding snipers:
http://www.mcmillanrifles.com/50_CAL_BMG.htm#SPORTER & TACTICAL

do you have an idea how big that thing is ? Thats what the Canadian army has and believe me, it's a monster. Not something I would use to kill randomly....

 

[manny78]

A subsonic round does not have the velocity needed to kill at a range that would be safe for the shooter. The effectiveness of the .22 caliber round is a product of velocity. A suppressor would adversely affect accuracy and is not a good choice for precise shooting.

For medium-to-long range precision shooting, an off-the-rack AR15 type rifle is not the best choice for accuracy. A bolt action rifle is preferable where accuracy is a consideration. Likewise, the .223 round is not the best choice and really makes no sense for a professional, or even a moderately trained person. The next step up in caliber is the logical choice due to projectile weight and velocity.

Disagree on some points. The subsonic rounds CAN kill someone at a safe range. Recently the RCMP has been testing some (.308) along with the Blazer 93D riffle. And no suppressor (once again at a reasonnable range) does not affect accuracy that much.

I do agree .223 for long range killing is a really bad choice, but anyway sounds like its working for him.

 

[KHMER ROGUE]

BigRedCat,

Nice weapon but I'd rather buy this one: http://www.accuracyinternational.com/awm.htm It's bit heavy but you get bang for your bucks! BAM!

 

[Testosterone boy]

They want us to attack, then they can attack Israel who in turn attacks them and then its us against them. They may not win, but they can do some serious harm for a long time to come.

Israel stands the least to gain by this. They have enough problems as it is.

If they really wanted us to attack all they have to do is another major terrorist hit. It has been over a year now.

They can attack Israel without us attacking first. They would have done much better before our Pacific fleet parked in the vicinity. How many carrier groups are in the general area these days? Enough to vaporize the Middle East about a dozen times I would guess.

 

[VicTusDeuS]

If they really wanted us to attack all they have to do is another major terrorist hit. It has been over a year now.

They can attack Israel without us attacking first. They would have done much better before our Pacific fleet parked in the vicinity. How many carrier groups are in the general area these days? Enough to vaporize the Middle East about a dozen times I would guess.

It would be too easy for us to catch something big being planned now that were on the lookout for some major acts. But it's probably a lot easier to sneak in a few guys with guns and no specific target-just people - without being picked up by the feds who are out looking for something much larger.

 

[Testosterone boy]

It would be too easy for us to catch something big being planned now that were on the lookout for some major acts. But it's probably a lot easier to sneak in a few guys with guns and no specific target-just people - without being picked up by the feds who are out looking for something much larger.

It would be much harder to pull off something on the scale of the 9/11 attack but a significant attack would still be childs play. These shootings really don't qualify as terrorism in my book. It would take several shootings a day to qualify.

Machine gun teams hitting some schools would be simple terrorism. I could think of hundreds of other equally simple yet effective targets.

 

[IanStuart]

Israel stands the least to gain by this. They have enough problems as it is.

I am not trying to be a smart ass but even you have to admit your statement is faulty. They would gain victory over their mortal enemy.

 

[Testosterone boy]

do you have an idea how big that thing is ? Thats what the Canadian army has and believe me, it's a monster. Not something I would use to kill randomly....

I couldn't agree more. The .50 caliber is best reserved for removing someones head or vaporizing part of their chest. 12,000 pounds of muzzle energy for taking out a civilian? The load was designed to take out tanks.

I find the .223 caliber, so they say, to be an interesting choice. It is fairly quiet and very, very common. An accurate and efficient load. Perfect for small game. Takes precision shooting to take out people with it.

Accuracy at the range while shooting at paper does not reflect ones ability to kill living things. I'm sure my 100 year old grandmother could do well at the range.

My choice for this type of work? Maybe a .243 or .308 or 30-06. 300 Mag for long distance work...over 400 yards.

 

[BigRedCat]

Come on people. Wake up! Look at what is going on right now- we have a sniper picking off people, terror attacks against oil tankers in Kuwait, terror attack against marine's in Kuwait,a shitload killed in Bali- do you really think that terrorist cells are not operating everywhere in every city? Have you really hid in the sand so deep that you think we are not headed for a world of shit? Even if this sniper team is just some wackos they are doing a great job of making people freaked out.

Ever get the feeling that if there is a God that he is on holiday?

This whole situation with Iraq/Al Queada could escalate very quickly into something very very bad.

Check out the Al Queda manual- these fuckers want our blood bad:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm

 

[Kalashnikov]

Ok, here is where things get interesting.

1. The speed of sound in air is 332m/s + 0.6*Temp(Celsuis)

So, assuming a 1.0-2.0s lag-time, thats roughly 347.0m
to 694.0m out. Assuming the Temp as 15C and a uniform
conical sound wave front.

Now all these leads to a vary interesting question:

Why on earth did he not use a sub-sonic round?

Fonz

Fonz, the .223/5.56 is designed specifically to fragment into many pieces in order to create several wound channels and create devastating damage. Check out this link:http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/wund5.jpg

Do you see the picture at the top left? This round was going about mach 3 in order to fragment completely. See the pic at the bottom right? The round pictured here was going over the speed of sound and would still not manage to do anything more than poke a .22 hole in someone.

The .223's effectiveness lies in the speed it requires in order to work properly. A sub-sonic round is clearly not possible in this situation, if anywhere.

 

[manny78]

Fonz, the .223/5.56 is designed specifically to fragment into many pieces in order to create several wound channels and create devastating damage. Check out this link:http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/wund5.jpg

Do you see the picture at the top left? This round was going about mach 3 in order to fragment completely. See the pic at the bottom right? The round pictured here was going over the speed of sound and would still not manage to do anything more than poke a .22 hole in someone.

The .223's effectiveness lies in the speed it requires in order to work properly. A sub-sonic round is clearly not possible in this situation, if anywhere.

If I had to use a sub-sonic round, it wouldn't be a .223 but rather a .308 using a real snipper riffle, especially one with a suppressor. Since he's shooting at less than 400 yards it wouldn't affect so much accuracy and stopping power.

 

[Testosterone boy]

A sub sonic .308 at 400 yards would hardly kill a cat.

The .223 was not designed to fragment. Some custom bullets are designed to fragment though.

I may have to dig out my 23 books on reloading to get specific facts and figures but probably not since noyone is paying me.

 

[Hangfire]

VELOCITY kills.

 

[manny78]

A sub sonic .308 at 400 yards would hardly kill a cat.

The .223 was not designed to fragment. Some custom bullets are designed to fragment though.

I may have to dig out my 23 books on reloading to get specific facts and figures but probably not since noyone is paying me.

It can kill you. Especially a head shot.

 

[Kalashnikov]

The .223 was not designed to fragment. Some custom bullets are designed to fragment though.

Please explain what you mean by this. I was not implying that all .223 rounds will fragment, however, this round is primarily used for two purposes: hunting and military weapons. As far as hunting goes, the round is almost exclusively used for varmint hunting and in this context the rounds are designed to fragment to cause max. damage to the creature.

5.56x45mm 55gr M193 FMJ is hardly a custom round; it is what the entire US military uses in their M16a2 and M4's. This is the round you see pictured in my above link. When you say .223 is not meant to fragment, please explain what you mean.

 

[Testosterone boy]

It can kill you. Especially a head shot.

Well...I'm looking at page 869 of the Sierra rifle reloading manual. A .308 bullet configured in a 180 grain round nose has 88.57 inches of drop at 400 yards when the muzzle velocity is 2100 fps. 2100 fps becomes 1311 fps at 400 yards. A quick study says the bullet drop from a sub sonic load would be over 10 feet...a tough calculation to compensate for.

 

[manny78]

Well...I'm looking at page 869 of the Sierra rifle reloading manual. A .308 bullet configured in a 180 grain round nose has 88.57 inches of drop at 400 yards when the muzzle velocity is 2100 fps. 2100 fps becomes 1311 fps at 400 yards. A quick study says the bullet drop from a sub sonic load would be over 10 feet...a tough calculation to compensate for.

Well I' gonna ask tomorrow to our experts, but here they are about to use the Blazer 93D with a suppressor AND subsonic ammo.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Well I' gonna ask tomorrow to our experts, but here they are about to use the Blazer 93D with a suppressor AND subsonic ammo.

Terrific...if they are truly diligent they may refer to a reputable reloading manual. But then I don't know of an unreputable reloading manual.

A better ballistic design is a boat tail. A 150 grain boat tail with 1800 fps of muzzle energy would still hold 1167 fps at 400 yards. Bullet drop = 118". A 10 mph wind would produce 30.39" of wind drift. That bullet be doing a lot of drifting and thats starting at 1800 fps. Perhaps I will find a load close to sub sonic. It may outpace a speeding baseball at 400 yards.

 

[Hangfire]

Testosterone boy has got this subject covered, and is correct about the BT design. The Sierra Match King is THE projectile of choice in .308 WIN, and the Sierra Reloading Manual is as close to the bible as you're bound to get.

As for head shots, a 400-yard head shot on a moving target is just not likely to happen.

 

[manny78]

Terrific...if they are truly diligent they may refer to a reputable reloading manual. But then I don't know of an unreputable reloading manual.

A better ballistic design is a boat tail. A 150 grain boat tail with 1800 fps of muzzle energy would still hold 1167 fps at 400 yards. Bullet drop = 118". A 10 mph wind would produce 30.39" of wind drift. That bullet be doing a lot of drifting and thats starting at 1800 fps. Perhaps I will find a load close to sub sonic. It may outpace a speeding baseball at 400 yards.

Don't worry they already use subsonic ammo with their C3A1. Also I tried once one of their C-8 (M-4) with a Gem something suppressor and subsonic ammo, and the accuracy was that bad at 50 yards. I guess our spree killer should have thought about this before.

 

[manny78]

As for head shots, a 400-yard head shot on a moving target is just not likely to happen.

I thought he was shooting at non-moving targets ?