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The Overhead Press...some thoughts..

b fold the truth

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http://www.cyberpump.com/features/steeltip/steel12b.html

Preface: Dr. Ken's Reflections on "The Press: Seated or Standing?"
My personal preference has always been the standing press. It makes you work hard and involves a lot of muscle. However, as this 1985 article indicates, there are many who cannot safely do the press in this manner and find it safer to use a seated position. Its like the barbell deep knee bend: if you can do it safely, efficiently, and effectively, then do it. If not, fine an effective substitute. Same deal for the press.




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The Press: Seated or Standing?
One of my patients recently inquired if the overhead press should be done standing or seated. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods, and there is no definitive answer.

The standing press requires you to control the bar and your body. There is quite a bit of indirect work given to the muscles of the low back and hips as the body is held in proper position. The compressive forces that affect the spine are, in part, dissipated through the lower extremities, providing some reduction of the forces which must be borne by the lumbar spine components. In many instances, however, the lumbar spine is still exposed to a great deal of compressive force due to the amount of weight being used and/or improper technique--a common occurrence when using maximum weights.

Many Olympic lifters who competed when the press was one of the three contested lifts suffered terrible low back pain and degeneration due to shearing and compressive forces which resulted from the technique used to elevate heavier and heavier weights.

Some trainees are poorly coordinated and do not expose the muscles of the deltoids and triceps to adequate workloads because they literally cannot control the bar or their bodies well enough to use meaningful resistance.

The seated press is, for many, safer, provided that support is given to the lumbar spine and upper back. The real disadvantage to this version of the press is that much of the compressive force produced by the overhead weight is not dissipated via the lower extremities. While the musculature of the lumbar spine may be under a bit less stress, the connective tissues may not be. The benefits that come with balancing the bar overhead are also reduced, although that may be a minor factor for the majority of trainees.

As I said, there is no definitive way to press. For almost all of my patients who have a history of low back trauma, I recommend the seated version, with additional support provided to the lumbar area with a rolled towel. If the available equipment allows, I have them keep their feet on the floor and a bit anterior to the torso, not behind it as is so often done. The new Nautilus Leverage Double Press machine is, perhaps, a great leap forward. Leverage factors allow heavy resistance to be used, while the seating angle prevents significant lumbar compression.

No matter how it’s performed, one has to maintain proper body position, and avoid excessive back bend and quick, jerky movements. The purpose of the press is to stimulate growth in the deltoids, triceps and other shoulder fixators, thus the emphasis must be placed upon those particular muscles. The only way to insure this is to use proper form and slow, controlled movement.


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This article has been retained courtesy of Dr. Ken Leistner and CS Publishing Ltd. It was originally published in THE STEEL TIP Vol. 1, No. 7, July 1985. It was reprinted in the publication HARDGAINER, Issue #51 - Nov/Dec 1997. It is reprinted here on Cyberpump! with permission. No reproduction, photocopying or transmission of this article may be used without expressly written permission from CS Publishing and Dr. Ken Leistner. Any use other than for personal knowledge and instruction will be considered copyright infringement, and will be viewed and treated as such.
 
i like the standing as well. it stresses the body much more than seated. my lbs drop though because of instability but overall i get more of a workout standing.

technique IS important though. i see people who look like they are going to fold over backward when it gets tough. key is to stay upright. once that bar gets out of the way of your forehead, you should be right under it IMO. this will keep the spine a bit more inline. abs should be tight to stabilize the lower back and keep it from arching. it helps to bend the knees and squeeze the glutes to stabilize the hips and take up the compression forces.

thats the way i do it.
 
For bodybuilders why bother with presses?

There is an injury called the "bodybuilders SHoulder" where the actual end of the joint gets worn away...

Later on in life, your shoulders are gonna be in tatters. Shoulders get enough work as is from chest and back work. Just work the side delts a tiny bit and the cuffs and be done IMO
 
Seated presses are murder on the spine as Pavel Tsatsouline says.

Standing is far more natural and productive. The benefits to sitting are very limited.

-Zulu
 
Interesting, I was just about to start a thread on this.

Some trainees are poorly coordinated and do not expose the muscles of the deltoids and triceps to adequate workloads because they literally cannot control the bar or their bodies well enough to use meaningful resistance.

That sounds like me. I have a shoulder injury (non-weight lifting related) which is mostly healed but which has left me with a worse range of motion in my shoulder than before. The effect this has had on overhead pressing is drastic. I can curl more weight than I can press overhead (not that I do curls I hasten to add). I can finally stretch without feeling that someone is trying to pry the joint apart with a chisel, so I reckon I can get the ROM back. I bought Pavel's book "Relax into stretch", so I'll be doing the splits in 3 months LOL. I do plenty of rotator work.

I reckon push presses are the best for me to regain strength overhead, with a slow negative. What do y'all think. Or should I just stick with strict militaries, frustrating though that is, until the poundages start going up again?
 
Many Olympic lifters who competed when the press was one of the three contested lifts suffered terrible low back pain and degeneration due to shearing and compressive forces which resulted from the technique used to elevate heavier and heavier weights

The spine has been damaged secondary to shearing force only, and numerous studies support this, some of which I know that Leistner is aware of. And it was only later, just before the Press was dropped from competition, when Ol'ers were practically doing a backbend to get under the weight. Press properly, no shearing force.

Some trainees are poorly coordinated and do not expose the muscles of the deltoids and triceps to adequate workloads because they literally cannot control the bar or their bodies well enough to use meaningful resistance.

Um, practice? What ever happened to improving skill when training?

The seated press is, for many, safer, provided that support is given to the lumbar spine and upper back. The real disadvantage to this version of the press is that much of the compressive force produced by the overhead weight is not dissipated via the lower extremities. While the musculature of the lumbar spine may be under a bit less stress, the connective tissues may not be. The benefits that come with balancing the bar overhead are also reduced, although that may be a minor factor for the majority of trainees.

Connective tissue may not be? Isn't he supposed to be a DC? Without the glutes and hamstrings stabalizing the hips, as well as the sacrum, the lower lumbar vertebrae are exposed to far more stress.


The only way to insure this is to use proper form and slow, controlled movement.

My way is the only way. Could never tell he is an HIT author.
 
If you are a weightlifter standing is great....especially for coordination.

If you are a bodybuilder, I personally think pre-exhausting with lateral raises is great...followed by seated dumbells.

I usually do some standing barbell last in my workout. But they are with light weight, high reps (12-15)and a slow negative on each rep.

Standing can be very dangerous with improper form and excessive weight.
 
For all but a tiny minority of trainers, this a moot point. In the 7 years I have been working out in various commercial gyms I have seen exactly one person other than myself do a standing overhead press. And the number of people who tell me I'll hurt myself is almost as many as tell me not to squat below parallel.

I agree with the good Dr., there's no definitive way to do it. I'm not worried about the people who do it seated. Even if stress on the spine cannot be dissipated as efficiently as standing, very, very few people use enough weight to compress the spine at all.

BTW the one guy who did standing militaries did wacky circuit training with 135 lbs, 10 curls followed by 10 overhead presses followed by 10 squats one after the other without putting down the bar and then a shitload of overhand bodyweight chins. He repeated the cycle for about an hour and he did it 3 times a week and never changed exercises or weights. The guy was huge but he was obviously insane, squatting with your curl weight is just not right.
 
I am doing Russian Shoulder Presses... you sit on the floor with your legs spread apart at about 45 degress and you alternate between each arm when doing presses. There is no way you can use your back when doing this lift otherwise you will fall over, this lift helps keep my form in check.
 
I train for my overhead pressing with a log and in a jerk fashion. When I compete...it is any way possible overhead...the jerk works best for me.

I have also grown all over from overhead work...especially standing. I don't have a place to do them seated, and am glad that I was forced to do them overhead.

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
The compressive forces that affect the spine are, in part, dissipated through the lower extremities, providing some reduction of the forces which must be borne by the lumbar spine components.

this makes no sense - the same load is transferred through the spine regardless of whether it ultimately goes through the legs to the floor or through the glutes to a seat.
 
Re: Re: The Overhead Press...some thoughts..

Prometheus said:


this makes no sense - the same load is transferred through the spine regardless of whether it ultimately goes through the legs to the floor or through the glutes to a seat.

I was just thinking that......maybe the author means that you can use your legs to absorb some impact as, for example, you lower the weight into the bottom position (similar to bending your legs as you land when jumping). Whereas, benches tend to be pretty solid and unforgiving......

Just my 2c.
 
Re: Re: Re: The Overhead Press...some thoughts..

Imnotdutch said:


I was just thinking that......maybe the author means that you can use your legs to absorb some impact as, for example, you lower the weight into the bottom position (similar to bending your legs as you land when jumping). Whereas, benches tend to be pretty solid and unforgiving......

Just my 2c.

exactly.

someone sitting on a bench and pressing from the bottom position will have to overcome inertia by driving up, if the end of the "chain" is a hard bench at the bottom of the sacrum, the brunt of the weight/pressure goes to the vertebral disks and they compress as much as they can. with someone doing a standing press a) the weight tends to be lighter and b) there is a greater foundation to spread out the weight through, ie hips, thighs etc. no jarring compressive forces on just the vertebra, the force gets dissipated through the legs.
 
the RTS coursebook (resistance training specialist) has an excellent graphical illustration of the differences between loading the spine vertically;seated, standing and also the exponential amount of stress placed on the spine when the angle of the body tilts one way or another (as the body moves closer to . (shearing forces) also the angle of the shoulder places a big amount of strain the spine as forces pull the body forward. very interesting stuff.
 
I may be way off base here, but I was told that doing military presses seated was preferred due to the fact that is was easier to "cheat" by using your legs to raise the weight when standing. You can't do that when seated. I have always done my military presses seated. I do know that I can lift more when standing, (not much) which lead me to believe that was true.


Just my .02,
Joker
 
JOKER47 said:
I may be way off base here, but I was told that doing military presses seated was preferred due to the fact that is was easier to "cheat" by using your legs to raise the weight when standing. You can't do that when seated. I have always done my military presses seated. I do know that I can lift more when standing, (not much) which lead me to believe that was true.


Just my .02,
Joker

You might argue that seated presses allow people to lean so far back that the press almost becomes an incline BP though. I think that it just comes down to discipline......
 
Re: Re: Re: The Overhead Press...some thoughts..

Imnotdutch said:

I was just thinking that......maybe the author means that you can use your legs to absorb some impact as, for example, you lower the weight into the bottom position (similar to bending your legs as you land when jumping). Whereas, benches tend to be pretty solid and unforgiving......

that makes sense - you're right, that's probably what he was trying to say....
 
Imnotdutch said:


You might argue that seated presses allow people to lean so far back that the press almost becomes an incline BP though. I think that it just comes down to discipline......

That's part of the reason I do my seated presses with the back of my bench all the way up. Like a chair. Helps to reinforce the discipline to keep my back straight. Also makes it impossible to lean TO far back. The most I canlean back is about 2-3 inches before I hit the back of the bench.


Joker
 
Try doing your seated dbell presses with NO back. Your standing overhead press should NOT be as high as your seated with a back support. I am sure that this is not the case for everyone...but is fairly standard from my experience with a "strict press".

I love standing presses, they work nearly every body part...

B True
 
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