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The Drug War Had To Fail

2Thick

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TODAY'S TOPIC

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The war on drugs is a complete failure because it's based on false premises.

A drug-free society is almost certainly not possible or even desirable. This leads to such incredible spectacles as Bill "Two Pack a Day" Bennett as drug Czar. Enforcing ideological purity is easier if you're not too sensitive to hypocrisy.

Corporate America spends $70,000 for each positive drug test. Since only about 1 in 20 drug users actually have a problem likely to affect their job performance, it's costing $1,400,000 to identify each problem drug user. Of course, they're easy to spot without the test. They're the ones screwing up on the job.

Drug paranoia is a very expensive habit.

Our Constitution is based on the philosophy of inalienable individual rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Our government exists to serve a sovereign people.

Since the war on drugs is predicated on the exact opposite philosophy, that the people exist to serve government, which has absolute authority to dictate our life styles, whether we're happy or not, it's impossible to enforce drug laws without trashing the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights.

First Amendment: No priest has ever been arrested for consuming wine in any "dry" state or county, or during prohibition. Rastafarians and Native Americans should be so privileged.

Second Amendment: Given how testy some peasants get when their betters kick down the doors to their filthy hovels, slam their faces against the wall, and force them at gun point to "make the correct choices in life," it would be better all around if only noblemen were allowed to possess weapons. Not that the gentry don't do drugs, they do. They just don't inhale and nobody kicks their doors down.

Forth Amendment: This doesn't exist anymore. If a cop wants to search you or your car he will. He can always swear later he saw you drop a suspicious packet of paper. If he wants to search your house he can just fill out a perjured affidavit and find a friendly judge to rubber stamp the warrant. There need not be any citizen complaint or witness. The whole thing is internally generated.

Fifth Amendment: Civil forfeiture now allows the government to steal without so much as a nod to due process. It also makes law enforcement a profit-sharing partner in the drug trade.

Police now spend a much smaller percentage of their time responding to criminal complaints filed by victims. Setting up drug deals is more lucrative. Besides, if the police arrest the burglar right away, they have to return your property. If they don't take any action till he sells your property and buys drugs they get to keep the cash. So what do you think they're doing? At least you know if your house is burglarized, whether it's a cop looking for drugs (or guns) or an addict looking for money to buy drugs, he works for the government, and the proceeds are ending up in the police department's budget one way or another. We now define a crooked cop as one who doesn't share what he steals with the entire department.

Like everyone else in the drug trade, your government's in it for the money.

Sixth Amendment: It's tough to hire a lawyer after the government confiscates all your assets.

Eighth Amendment: If you don't think 10 years for smoking marijuana rather than drinking beer isn't "cruel and unusual", whatever you're taking is a lot worse for the brain than whatever you're condemning.

Fourteenth Amendment: Ah, equal protection under the law. That's where six guys can be involved in a drug deal, five are cops and one goes to jail. Our new social philosophy forces us to argue that the Constitution doesn't really apply to the government. Of course, this ridiculous premise leaves us with the little problem of trying to figure out what in the world it does apply to.
 
In the information age, any war isn't about winning, so much as it is about making the enemy think they've yet to be caught.

We allow a certain amount of drugs through and into the US based on statistics. If we catch too many shipments, the cartels stop using the methods we know about and then we have to start at square one.

I think the single flaw in this concept is that the # we allow through must go up as total # of shipments go up. Thus cartels could care less if we catch 24% of their shit, they'll just up the total number.

This has nothing to do with Libertarian vs conventional politics.

I would loathe to see what a True Libertarian would do in office. That won't happen so long as they publish nothing but negative PR.
 
Indra said:
i agree, i dont think most people have enough responsibility for drugs to be legalized though.

Yeah, but we shouldn't be protected from ourselves like that either. I was under the control of a mommy and daddy for eighteen years. That was enough for me.
 
Code said:
In the information age, any war isn't about winning, so much as it is about making the enemy think they've yet to be caught.

We allow a certain amount of drugs through and into the US based on statistics. If we catch too many shipments, the cartels stop using the methods we know about and then we have to start at square one.

I think the single flaw in this concept is that the # we allow through must go up as total # of shipments go up. Thus cartels could care less if we catch 24% of their shit, they'll just up the total number.

This has nothing to do with Libertarian vs conventional politics.

I would loathe to see what a True Libertarian would do in office. That won't happen so long as they publish nothing but negative PR.

The problem is not the drugs getting in. The problem is the government agencies that use the flow of drugs to subjugate classes of people and to expand their power at the expense of the American people.
 
casavant said:


Yeah, but we shouldn't be protected from ourselves like that either. I was under the control of a mommy and daddy for eighteen years. That was enough for me.

This view is so "perfect world". In a perfect world we surely wouldn't need to make *anything* illicit. Thats the biggest flaw in libertarian propaganda is that we don't need to be protected from ourselves.

But because 90% of the world is fucking retarded, that's never going to happen.
 
Code said:


This view is so "perfect world". In a perfect world we surely wouldn't need to make *anything* illicit. Thats the biggest flaw in libertarian propaganda is that we don't need to be protected from ourselves.

But because 90% of the world is fucking retarded, that's never going to happen.

This is an old argument, but...Alcohol many times more harmful than most illicit substances (besides the obvious hardcore variety) and it is not causing too much social disruption (even with the 90% of the "retards" out there.
 
Code said:


This view is so "perfect world". In a perfect world we surely wouldn't need to make *anything* illicit. Thats the biggest flaw in libertarian propaganda is that we don't need to be protected from ourselves.

But because 90% of the world is fucking retarded, that's never going to happen.

:bigkiss:

Drug laws are OK within reason. The ones we have now are far too harsh and inconsistent.
 
2Thick said:


The problem is not the drugs getting in. The problem is the government agencies that use the flow of drugs to subjugate classes of people and to expand their power at the expense of the American people.

the government doesnt force anyone to smoke crack or shoot heroin. people use drugs to escape reality. go ahead and place the blame on someone else. i see you have taken over for RyanH.
 
Indra said:


the government doesnt force anyone to smoke crack or shoot heroin. people use drugs to escape reality. go ahead and place the blame on someone else. i see you have taken over for RyanH.

Obviously, you are of a biased opinon. You mother was apparently a crack-whore. That is the only way to explain you.

That is why you must be so pro-drug-war. It must have been hard to grow up as a crack whore's crack baby. I feel for you, crack-boy.
 
casavant said:


:bigkiss:

Drug laws are OK within reason. The ones we have now are far too harsh and inconsistent.

I think it works just fine, crack dealers, pot smokers adn the ilk all know the consequences of their actions. The only reason we're surprised by them is because we allow the media to let us be outraged and/or taken aback by tough drug laws.
 
2Thick said:


Obviously, you are of a biased opinon. You mother was apparently a crack-whore. That is the only way to explain you.

That is why you must be so pro-drug-war. It must have been hard to grow up as a crack whore's crack baby. I feel for you, crack-boy.

i am not pro drug war. reread my post.
 
Code said:


I think it works just fine, crack dealers, pot smokers adn the ilk all know the consequences of their actions. The only reason we're surprised by them is because we allow the media to let us be outraged and/or taken aback by tough drug laws.

I don't agree. I think most drug laws and drug sentencing are way overboard. I don't think anyone should get in trouble for smoking pot. Period. Just because you knew what the law and consequences were, it doesn't mean you deserved a punishment for breaking that law.

There's a law that I can't drink my cereal milk from the bowl. If I do that, I get 6 months in county jail. I think it's BS so I drink it anyway. I get caught and put in the clink. Did I deserve that punishment just because I knew what the consequences were?

Say there's a law that I have to copulate with my first born daughter, but I think that's fucked up even though I'll get ten years in prison if I refuse. I refuse anyway and go down the river. But the punishment was justified because I knew what my consequences would be?
 
The drug war of course failed. You can't beat the market. You'd think in this country we would know that. Once these socialist politicians with their big-government drug war stop interfering in the workings of the market, private enterprise will mitigate many of the problems the recreational drug industry causes today.
 
Code said:
The only reason we're surprised by them is because we allow the media to let us be outraged and/or taken aback by tough drug laws.


Yeah, like that fucker Bill O'Reilly on FoxNews. What a liberal pro-drug prick.
 
casavant said:


I don't agree. I think most drug laws and drug sentencing are way overboard. I don't think anyone should get in trouble for smoking pot. Period. Just because you knew what the law and consequences were, it doesn't mean you deserved a punishment for breaking that law.

What is the purpose of any law if they aren't enforced?

There's a law that I can't drink my cereal milk from the bowl. If I do that, I get 6 months in county jail. I think it's BS so I drink it anyway. I get caught and put in the clink. Did I deserve that punishment just because I knew what the consequences were?

Rather silly scenario, but, you deserve punishment for willingly breaking the law.
 
Doktor Bollix said:
Bunch of big-government supporting communists on here. You people want laws to regulate every facet of human existence.

Actually, pro-drug war Americans tend to be conservatives, quite opposite of communists. Call us by what we truly are, fascists.
 
cia.jpg
 
Soft drugs (pot) should be legal to use. WHat about something like Camel, Marlboro, Winston weed-packs ?

Now coke, X, K, heroin is a different story.......
 
Well our trusty allies the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan have heroin refineries and warehouses along the Uzbek border. They have 250,000 lbs of refined heroin that they have stashed, so as to keep prices in the European markets high. Stockpiling was rampant when the Taliban banned the production of the opium poppy (to drive up the value of their own stockpiles).

I bet we don't get involved. Even though they are a puppet regime of ours. So much for the war on drugs. Hopefully it won't be like in Vietnam when Air America was used to courier heroin to the US to finance off the books operations.
 
spentagn said:


What is the purpose of any law if they aren't enforced?



Rather silly scenario, but, you deserve punishment for willingly breaking the law.



Bad laws shouldn't be enforced, they should be thrown out.

Not being able to smoke out is silly too. That's my point.
 
2Thick said:
The funny thing is that it is true!

That's why it's funny.

You should use this as your avatar for today:
cia_small.jpg
 
Certain drugs should be legalized. I dont think that drugs like marijuana or mushrooms should be illegal, but heroin, etc. probably should. It all depends on how you look at psychoactive substances in general.

At first, I had a fairly closed mind against drugs. But I think that when most people try something like marijuana and realize that it isnt the 'killer' substance or gateway drug most have made it out to be, their stance on drugs changes. Also, becoming more educated on drugs can change your perspective. After reading through the Erowid Vaults, I've realized that most drugs arent really all that bad. Thank God whoever put up that site did, because it's probably saved many more lives than you'd think. If you want to check it out, you can here:

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
 
Doktor Bollix said:
Well our trusty allies the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan have heroin refineries and warehouses along the Uzbek border. They have 250,000 lbs of refined heroin that they have stashed, so as to keep prices in the European markets high. Stockpiling was rampant when the Taliban banned the production of the opium poppy (to drive up the value of their own stockpiles).

I bet we don't get involved. Even though they are a puppet regime of ours. So much for the war on drugs. Hopefully it won't be like in Vietnam when Air America was used to courier heroin to the US to finance off the books operations.


This is a perfect scenario to represent the true goal of a "Drug War", or by criminalizing certain drugs in general. The Drug War, just as the movement and sale of drugs, is a huge money-making operation. Of course there are a huge quantity of drugs entering the USA every year. Is that what the USA Government wants? Yes. If all of the drugs were intertcepted before they made it to the streets of the USA, it would inflict an econmomic A-bomb on the USA economy, considering that so many paychecks ride on the fact that they DO get to the Streets. Think of how many aspects of society directly profit from the fact that there are illegal drugs on the streets. Cops, Lawyers, Private companies that build prisons, People that work in prisons, rehab workers, etc. These areas of employmeny started to boom after the Reagan administration expanded the USAs "War on Drugs" in the early 1980's, and represent a signifigant amount of tax dollars for the Government. Just like the sale of heroin was used to finance the USAs interests during the Vietnam War, the prosecution of drug crimes are used to fuel the USAs enonomic intersts here at home, i.e Tax Dollars & Employment created on the premise and acceptance that drugs(and people that use them) deserve to be imprisoned. People that buy into the fact that the Government wants this Country to be "drug free" are morons who I would like to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to quite frankly. The US Government though, banks on the fact that they can & will be able to BRAINWASH a signifigant section of the population into believing that "drug free" is their true agenda. Those people who buy into their agenda call themselves "anti drug". I call them narrow minded.
 
How can you "win" a war on drugs when the very people trying to put you in jail for doing drugs have bosses and higher ups that contribute to the drug flow in this country? There is corruption at every level from the ground up, that is a given and when large amounts of money are involved in the mix like with drugs you have MASSIVE corruption. There are many politicians and parts of the government that are directly responsible or indirectly responsible for importing coke and heroin into the US, so the whole "drug war" is a big smoke mask anyway. It is sad that the majority of Americans really buy into it. Sheep.

People in jail for weed is RETARDED, I dont care if it is a million tons. Make it a fine to have less than 100 pounds or something, but why waste our jail space and taxpayer money on this bullshit. Do you realize that if you are a Mexican and smuggle less than 100 pounds over the border and get caught that they just send you back. Now what happens if you have that much as a US citizen? Long jail term thats what. It is hard to imagine that in the year 2002 we are sending people to prison for this. Absurd in fact!

Bottom line: people will always do drugs, drugs will always exist until we have a "perfect" society which will never happen anyway. All of these drug policies are simply election bargaining chips politicos use to gain power with voters. Once all these old thinking backwards people die off I can only hope that we have some fresh thinkers that will realize what a fucking waste of money and people this BS drug war is. I spoke with an ex-DEA agent once for some time about his thought on this. It was fascinating. He said the whole thing was a total sham and he regretted wasting his life in such a futile manner. It is akin to plugging a planet size hole with your finger. When will America WAKE THE FUCK UP!!! if you answered never, you win the prize!
 
I agree, Xerxes, you have to follow the money on every issue, and the smart money is making a fortune on both sides of the drug war. There's just no percentage in any other approach to the issue, and until their kid gets 5 years for dealing acid Ma and Pa Sixpack are cool with it.
 
Code said:


I think it works just fine, crack dealers, pot smokers adn the ilk all know the consequences of their actions.

who are you to decide that i should face consequences for smoking pot?

don't be so ignorant.
 
it is not ignorance, it is arrogance.

fucking cloud castle conservatives at it again.

protect us from theft of land, liberty, or property. don't protect us from ourselves, no matter how retarded we may be.
 
Just say no.

Yeah right. The drug war is the worst example of government abuse of the citizenry in this country to date. (I suspect that when it is all said and done, the "war" on terror will surpass it)

Did Prohibition work? Nope. So why does anyone believe that this will?

Somewhere along the way, we got hit with propaganda that said "drugs are bad ".

It probably went like this: drugs are bad. drugs are bad. drugs are bad. And just for good measure, some commericals with eggs and a frying pan were thrown in too.

People should be made aware of the physiological consequences of drug use. Repeated use a "E" can reduce memory capacity. Long term use of coke can really fuck up your septum, and cause heart problems.

But at the end of the day, I don't need the government telling me what to do with my body. Those are choices only I should make. I can't believe some of you are so brainwashed as to believe that the government should regulate what you do, or do not do, to your own body

The drug war, like so many other policies, is about

1. state revenue

2, incarcerating poor people

3. dividing the citizenry (drug users must be "bad". Good little sheep don't do drugs)
 
BeefyBull said:
Certain drugs should be legalized. I dont think that drugs like marijuana or mushrooms should be illegal, but heroin, etc. probably should. It all depends on how you look at psychoactive substances in general.

At first, I had a fairly closed mind against drugs. But I think that when most people try something like marijuana and realize that it isnt the 'killer' substance or gateway drug most have made it out to be, their stance on drugs changes. Also, becoming more educated on drugs can change your perspective. After reading through the Erowid Vaults, I've realized that most drugs arent really all that bad. Thank God whoever put up that site did, because it's probably saved many more lives than you'd think. If you want to check it out, you can here:

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml


Right on man. I just spent the last hour and a half reading up on stuff on that site. Thanks for the link. I'm going to have to try baking soda with my adderall next time. :D
 
There is nothing more hypocritical than the War on Drugs, yet the free for all dispensing of "amphetamines" to our young. Not to mention the massive amounts of people on polypharmaceutical mixes for depressions, phobias, and whatever "mental illness" the psychiatric community creates this week.

I saw the combination that a friend was on for depression and anxiety and it far surpassed the psychoactive potential for most street drug users. This woman was on an SSRI, Xanax, Trazodone, Wellbutrin, and Provigil. She complained that she was constantly foggy headed and tired, and I was floored at this mix of shit that she was prescribed. There is no Doctor on earth that can explain what is going on in her system with this mix of shit, but they are willing to mix and match drug combos, and call it medicine.

There was a science fiction movie from the 70's/80's with Robert Duvall, called THX119 or something like that, that is very prophetic of society. In this movie, you were required to be ON drugs, and it was against the law not to be on your medications. The meds allowed the people to perform very precise work on these computer assembly lines, but they were barely human; no emotions, no independant thoughts, etc.

It was very prophetic of today's kids in school and the ADD/ADHD scams.
 
I think the same thing. Attention deficeit disorder, short attention spans, mood disorders, take this for that and that for this. It seems we all have 10 differant disorders nowadays. If you take anti-depressants they cause sex disorders such as no lust so your bound to get depressed from no sex- so what is the point? They will cram whatever they can down our throats if it makes the massive drug companies money.
 
casavant said:
Right on man. I just spent the last hour and a half reading up on stuff on that site. Thanks for the link. I'm going to have to try baking soda with my adderall next time. :D

You're welcome... 'Hell yeah!' on the Adderall
 
spentagn said:


What is the purpose of any law if they aren't enforced?



Rather silly scenario, but, you deserve punishment for willingly breaking the law.

Is the purpose of laws to enforce them?
 
Wodin, just saw on the other thread you're about 280. "Now this is a man who has eaten a LOT of beef" - Jimbo, South Park

Just thought I'd bump this thread instead because its a lil more meaningful.
 
LOL.... 2Thick, as usual is on the money.


Yeah 280 - 285 range. Depends on the time of day... :)
 
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