Test Deca/Winny...PLEASE take a look at my next cycle!

[Bulldog_10]

I'm only looking for about 10-15 pounds of keepable muscle. Here's what I'm thinking...tentative:

Cyp or Enanthate.....750mg/wk.....1-2
Test............................500mg/wk.....3-8
Deca..........................300mg/wk......1-8
Winny.........................50mg/ED........4-11
Clomid therapy(below)....................12-14
Arimidex.....................25mg/ED.......1-14

Clomid: Start 4 weeks after last shot of test/deca (three days after last dose of winny). 300mg on day one, 100mg/ED for the remainder of the week. 50mg/ED for week 2. 50mg/EOD for week 3.

My main concern is gyno, specifically progesterone induced gyno, that's my reasoning behind not front-loading the deca. That's also why I am running the winny for 8 weeks.
I'm not starting the winny until week 4 because I want to take it in between the time I stop the test/deca and when I start clomid.

I'm probably goin to be taking Tyler Liver Detox System (sorry decem) plus ALA. Any other supps I should take? Should I front load the deca?
What do you guys think? ANY suggestions appreciated.

I'm not starting this cycle for a while, so I have a long time to tweak it, the more suggestions the better!

Thanks Guys!
B-10

 

[Zyglamail]

My main concern is gyno, specifically progesterone induced gyno, that's my reasoning behind not front-loading the deca. That's also why I am running the winny for 8 weeks.

To further point out how unfounded many of the concerns are about front loading I ran some more numbers. This time I did not front load at all, but I used 5 types of test, all at the same dose and injection schedule. As I have pointed out prolly a dozen times now short half life ester products peak WAY faster and higher than even a 3x dose frontload. Take a look at the numbers for yourself, I added the graph to the Modern AAS cycleing thread started by Andy.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Thanks zyg...I was looking for answers from you and Andy on this. I did read that thread, and I e-mailed Andy, he told me to post the question on here.

So you're saying that there is no more risk of gyno with front-loading then if I don't front-load? It seems logical that the higher the dose, the more chance for gyno, am I wrong?

 

[decem]

buldog.. that's basically the same exact cycle i'm running right now...

only i didn't front load cause i didn't have the liquidex.. and i ran dbol at 30mg for 2 weeks..

i'm started the winny in the middle of the 3rd week and will run it through week 12..

oh yeah... and i'm running the test and deca for 10 weeks instead of 8.

 

[Bulldog_10]

buldog.. that's basically the same exact cycle i'm running right now...

only i didn't front load cause i didn't have the liquidex.. and i ran dbol at 30mg for 2 weeks..

i'm started the winny in the middle of the 3rd week and will run it through week 12..

oh yeah... and i'm running the test and deca for 10 weeks instead of 8.

12 weeks of 17-aa...what are you takin for your liver? I thought about adding the d-bol at the beginning too, but thought it would be too hard on the liver.

 

[decem]

12 weeks of 17-aa...what are you takin for your liver?

nothing.... right now anywho..

no.. i'm on my way to by some milk thistle and cdg... and that's it i think.. i'll probably get my liver values checked in a few weeks..

 

[WannaImpress]

decem

so how long have you been on this cycle, 2 weeks? I suppose your just looking for mass right now, correct? How much of each AS are you taking?

 

[Bulldog_10]

I'll probably shoot myself for asking this, but what is cdg? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

 

[Zyglamail]

So you're saying that there is no more risk of gyno with front-loading then if I don't front-load?

What I am saying is that since the long half life esters are released so slow, that you run a higher risk from prop at 600mg a week than you do frontloading enth at 1800 for the first week.

Everyones arguement against front loading has been that blood levels will rise to quick and hence sides are more likely. My rebuttal has been that if that were the case, then short half life esters like prop and fina and especially orals would be just as dangerous since they would cause huge fast spikes as well. The graph I added to that thread today displays graphically exactly what I was trying to say. If you look at the prop and phenyl prop lines, they peak, With no front load mind you faster and higher than a front load of 3x the intended flat cycle dose. So basically put using prop/phenylprop results in much higher blood levels, not only at the start of the cycle but throughout the whole damn thing. That would seem to indicate that for those fearfull of sides, these substances would be more dangerous, but also give better gains since the blood levels are higher. To further outline my point, I have modified the test decanoateadded line and the test enanthate lines to show a 3x flat dose front load. In other words, in week one, the enanth and decanoat will be at 1800mg in 3 doses as opposed to the 600mg in 3 doses of the prop and phenylprop, as you can see by the levels of unesterfied AAS, the short half life ester products, according to popular belief should impose more of a threat.

Note: I am not telling you to front load here, just showing numbers/graphs that seem to indicate using short half life esters should cause more problems than front loading. You decide for yourself.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I'm assuming the same thing goes for deca as with test. SO I think I will front-load, however, I will still do alot of reasearch before I make the final decision.

What do you think of this zyg, test at 750mg/wk for weeks 1 and 2. And deca at 600mg/wk for weeks 1 and 2. Just tell me, in your opinion, will this cause greater risk for progesterone gyno. Not worried about gyno from test, as i will have plenty of arimidex.

 

[Zyglamail]

In the simplist terms, according to the numbers, the long half life esters are released so slow, that even with a 3x dose frontloaded in the first week, the blood levels never come close to that of a short half life ester without a preload.

Also keep in mind deca has the same half life as what I used to plot the test decaonate in the chart above and as you can see, that even frontloading it at 1800mg the first week, it still never goas above the highest blood level concentrations that it will reach near the end of the cycle. The tail end of the cycle remains very close to unchanged between a front load and non-front load. All the changes happen up front and as long as you hit hard and back off (ie 2x dose for two weeks or 3x dose for one) you will barely if ever go above what a non-frontloaded cycle will.

You would also, on paper, be better off doubling the dose of test for two weeks up front as opposed to just 1.5x assuming your using cyp or enth. The chart I just posted shows the enanthate levels with a 2x frontload for 2 weeks. Look at it and then the other graph in the modern thread which is no front load and see how they compare.

 

[WannaImpress]

Zyglamail

damn bro, you give some elaborate answers! Just want to thank you and Andy13 for bringing the "Front load" issue to more simple terms for better understanding, it has helped tremendously! Keep those posts/graphs coming!

 

[Bulldog_10]

I glued my head to my shoulder.

 

[Bulldog_10]

 

[decem]

Re: decem

so how long have you been on this cycle, 2 weeks? I suppose your just looking for mass right now, correct? How much of each AS are you taking?

been on about 20 days now.. 500mg test, 300mg deca, just started winny 50mg ed two days ago.. ran dbol at 30mg ed day 1-7, 20mg day 8-9, 10mg day 10-11.... and that's it i think...

hold on i'll go weigh myself..

the scale says i'm up 17 or 18 lbs... but my precycle measurement was done in the morning.. so i'm up probably 15 still..


oh yeah.. i also hadn't trained that long before starting so i got some muscle memory going on there.. i wanted a jumpstart after coming off an injury..