t3/clen/eca/primo

[Francis Drake]

I am thinking about taking a T3, Clen, and ECA stack. I will stack them with primobolan. This is how it will look... any suggestions?

T3
1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1
Clen
5 pills per day eod
ECA
Every other day

t3/clen t3/eca t3/clen t3/eca etc...

in addition i will be taking 200mg of primobolan per week...

should i change anything? maybe make the cycle longer, or up any dosages? This is my first time using t3, clen, or primo.

 

[Cuts]

Sounds good to me bro.

I'm no expert, but that looks like a nice plan to me man. Simple. Conservative. Hopefully we'll get some more opinions on it soon.

 

[jarabbit]

I would work up the clen and not start at more than 2 pills a day. T-3 looks fine for first time, primo could go to 300mg/wk with out any worries, I'd watch the eca clen combo together. I know you alternate eod but it's still somewhat in your system as the clen has a rather long half life, maybe just do the clen for the duration with a week off in the middle or something.

 

[DSPO]

It is better to do the clen for a longer period. I do not believe that 200mg of primo is enough to prevent muscle from being eaten away. I would increase your AS to at least a total of 600mg of AS per week.

This is what I am doing:

Day--------T3----------Clen-------ECA
1----------- 1----------- 4-----------6
2----------- 1----------- 4-----------6
3----------- 1----------- 4-----------6
4----------- 1----------- 4-----------6
5----------- 1----------- 4-----------6
6----------- 2----------- 6-----------8
7----------- 2----------- 6-----------8
8----------- 2----------- 6-----------8
9----------- 2----------- 6-----------8
10---------2----------- 6-----------8
11--------- 3----------- OFF--------12
12----------3-----------OFF--------12
13----------3-----------OFF--------12
14----------3-----------OFF--------12
15----------3-----------OFF--------12
16----------4-----------6-----------12
17----------4-----------6-----------12
18----------4-----------6-----------12
19----------4-----------6-----------12
20----------4-----------6-----------12
21----------4-----------6-----------12
22----------4-----------6-----------12
23----------3-----------6-----------12
24----------3-----------6-----------12
25----------3-----------6-----------12
26----------3-----------6-----------12
27----------3-----------6-----------12
28----------2-----------OFF--------12
29----------2-----------OFF--------12
30----------2-----------OFF--------12
31----------2-----------OFF--------12
32----------2-----------OFF--------12
33----------1-----------6-----------12
34----------1-----------6-----------12
35----------1-----------6-----------12
36----------1-----------6-----------12
37----------1-----------6-----------12

 

[Cuts]

Say, DSPO:

What's your rationale behind using ECA & Clen simultaneously? I've always been under the impression that they have similar mechanisms of action, so wouldn't cycling them every two weeks like Francis initially posted make more sense? I've read that you can minimize receptor down-regulation and maintain efficacy throughout doing it this way. What day of your cycle are you on? What AS are you taking? How's it going so far?

 

[DSPO]

This plan was not put together by myself...Decaman has used it in the past with phenomenal results. I just finished using clen and ultimate orange (EC) with some great results...better than when I only used the clen alone. I was giving it a test run before the start of my summer cycle

My cycle starts June 2...That is if I don't stick myself today...Shit all the gear is here...The clen/T3/ECA stack starts in week 5.

Week----EQ-----Enan-----Fina-----Winny---Arimidex
1-------500----250------0--------0-------1/eod
2-------500----250------0--------0-------1/eod
3-------500----250------0--------0-------1/eod
4-------500----250------0--------0-------1/eod
5-------500----250------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod
6-------500----250------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod
7-------500----250------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod
8-------500----250------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod
9-------500----0--------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod
10------500----0--------75/eod---50/ed---1/eod

 

[MUSTANG_18]

Cycle looks pretty good. I would up the Primo to 300-400mg/week and maybe add some Test as 200mg/week of Primo will not be enough to prevent muscle loss from the higher doses of Cytomel(T3). Also I would wait till week 3-4 to start the Cytomel as that is when the Primo should really start to kick in. Hope this helps, Best of luck!

M18

 

[Francis Drake]

thanks for the replies... OK, so if I need to raise the amount of AS in the cycle, then what would be better... raise to 400 primobolan, or throw in a shot of Sustanon?
The reason I ask is... the sustanon is much easier on my bank account than primobolan is. But, from what I understand, primobolan is better for a cutting cycle because it will still work well with lower calories. Any opinions?

 

[DSPO]

Grand myth...Test is bad for cutting cycles.

Most people believe this but in fact it is not true...Your diet dictates whether you are bulking or cutting. Yes it is true that some AS produces more water retention than others...But what is the main cause of water when using Test...Well for me it is sodium and carb intake. If I keep these low my water retention is minimal.

I would keep the primo at 200mg and add 500mg test. And if you are that worried about water then add 1/2 tab of Arimidex eod

 

[PimpnAintEasy]

Grand myth...Test is bad for cutting cycles.

Most people believe this but in fact it is not true...Your diet dictates whether you are bulking or cutting.

Preach on, brother.

 

[Francis Drake]

if I took 500mg of test a week though, wouldn't that be enough to counteract the cuts that would come from the Cytomel? Like trying to bulk and cut at the same time... is Cytomel really THAT catabolic that it is necessary to take that much test just to keep the muscle?? I'm not arguing.. I'm just making sure that before I try it, everything is right. Thanks again for the replies bros.

 

[Francis Drake]

also, I wouldn't need clomid at the end.. would I?

 

[DSPO]

if I took 500mg of test a week though, wouldn't that be enough to counteract the cuts that would come from the Cytomel? Like trying to bulk and cut at the same time... is Cytomel really THAT catabolic that it is necessary to take that much test just to keep the muscle?? I'm not arguing.. I'm just making sure that before I try it, everything is right. Thanks again for the replies bros.

You are missing the point...no durg is Bulking nor cutting. Your Diet dictacts wheter you are cutting or bulking. Yes some AS is better for Bulking while others are better for cutting.

As you can see from my cycle above the bulk of AS that is used does not aromitize very much. I only added 250mg of test to make sure that my sex drive stays intact when using the fina. The fina is my Androgen during this cycle that is why I did not add that much test. I am even using Arimidex dispite most of the AS used does not create large amounts of water.

Test is one of the best AS to help you cut. If you use it at 500mg you need to use Arimidex as described above so that you do not get the unwanted water which will prevent you from seeing the effects of the cytomel.

Yes you will need Clomid since 250 mg of test will suppress your HPTA within 2 - 3 weeks.

 

[BoomBoom]

If you have time you may want to check out my post under " I am so confused" by boomboom we are asking similar questions so it may help you some.

 

[Francis Drake]

thanks fellas

 

[solidspine]

I'm on clen right now and will add ECA, thanks

 

[MR-T]

I have never used T3 with clen/eca, only onits own and to be honest found it little harsh on muscle loss although I did lose quite a lot of fat on it. The primo will probably help preserve the muscle here though.
As far as the clen/eca goes I have used this combination alongside cardio/diet with great success at 2 weeks clen (building up slowly at first to 6 tabs/day) followed by 2 weeks eca and so on. Never tried primo though.
MR-T.

 

[Horny]

Grand myth...Test is bad for cutting cycles.

Most people believe this but in fact it is not true...Your diet dictates whether you are bulking or cutting. Yes it is true that some AS produces more water retention than others...But what is the main cause of water when using Test...Well for me it is sodium and carb intake. If I keep these low my water retention is minimal.

I would keep the primo at 200mg and add 500mg test. And if you are that worried about water then add 1/2 tab of Arimidex eod

It ain't a grand myth that test is bad for cuting cycles it is a truth. It is not always true but it is generally true, especially in higher dosages. Testosterone is bad for cuting cycles becuase the estrogen from it will cause you to hold on to subcutaneous fat more and possibly put on fat in the legs. However, testosteone alone, the kind you get from low dosages combined with antiestrogens, does have special fat burning properties similar to clen and eca (beta agonist thing) that DHT and its derivatives like primo don't have. Oxandrolone (anavar) is the absolute best aas for cutting, it has the fat burning properties of testosterone and no estrogen. However this should not be a concern with clen and t3 and eca (I agree with the guy who siad you should alternate eca with clen every 2 weeks, t3/cle/eca all together is overkill and you buikd up resistance to eca and clen after 2 weeks that you avoid by cycling them). The only thing you should worry about is keeping the estrogen low.

 

[Horny]

bottom line is that more test=more estrogen and more estrogen will counteract the effects of the clen and eca (not the t3 though which just eats up everything). Estrogen has the exact opposite effect that the clen and eca have in certan tissues on the same receptors.

 

[DSPO]

bottom line is that more test=more estrogen and more estrogen will counteract the effects of the clen and eca

That is why you use the Arimidex. Prevents 80%+ of estrogen from being produced when on test=More androgenic cycle=More muscle=loss of fat...


DSPO

 

[Francis Drake]

I don't know anyone that I can get arimidex from, and I would really rather not hold a lot of water during the cycle... (I don't want to get any e-mails from any "sources" either) so should i use the primobolan? or something else... Winstrol maybe?

 

[Horny]

That is why you use the Arimidex. Prevents 80%+ of estrogen from being produced when on test=More androgenic cycle=More muscle=loss of fat...


DSPO

even if you use arimidex you get a heafty dosage of estrogen, not enough to neccesarily cause gyno, but enough to keep some stubborn fat from going away. Arimidex does not eliminate 80 percent of estrogen production. It eliminates far less.

There is something new coming out called aromasin. That stuff eliminates more estrogen than arimidex. When that sutff comes out then I will agree with yur ideas about using test in cutting cycles.

 

[bigmag]

the only thing I can see that you're doing wrong is with the clen. and eca.....you should take clen. in a two week on, two week off fasion.....and don't start out with 5 pills every time you take it......you should start out with one...then work your way up to what you can handle......the eca stack should be taken during the off weeks of you clen.

 

[DSPO]

DF, If you can not use Arimidex then you could up the dosages of Primo or add some EQ or Winny. I only recommended test because you had access to it and cheaper than the Primo.

Good luck and email me if you have any other questions that I can help you with.

even if you use arimidex you get a heafty dosage of estrogen, not enough to neccesarily cause gyno, but enough to keep some stubborn fat from going away. Arimidex does not eliminate 80 percent of estrogen production. It eliminates far less.

I am not going to continue to debate this issue with you. It is clear that you have never used Arimidex nor have much experience using AS. I will simply post facts that our mods and other very experienced vets have said about my points. I just wish that people that do not have any experience using certain substances would not make statements without knowing the facts.
There are many other post and scientific data that supports my points I will let you do the research and decide...


===========
Post from Huck=
===========
Anabolic Steroids achieve their effects on hypertrophy through different mechanisms,and as such are classified into two different categories,class-I and class-II compounds.I will explain which ones work through which pathway,and how to effectively combine opposing groups to maximize potentiation of one another for explosive growth....

Class-I-These are steroids who's primary influence on anabolism is achieved through aggressive binding and activation of the androgen receptor...Examples of potent class-I's are-Deca-durabolin,primobolan,equipoise,oxandrolone...

Class-II-These are compounds with potent activity independent of A/R binding/activation,and their activity has been monitored in neuron's,microsomes,mitochondria,etc...Examples of potent class-II's are-Anadrol,Dianabol,winstrol,Fluoxymesterone...

Then we have steroids that are potent combination steroids all by themselves(meaning they display influences on growth through both class-I and II activity,and thus are very effective as'stand-alone'anabolic agents as well as forming the 'base' of most steroid stacks)....Two compounds possess this unique characteristic-Trenbelone and Testosterone.Either of these two steroids should form the base of most users stacks,as the cover both A/R and non-A/R mediated mechanisms,and adding to them with either a class-I or II will only potentiate that particular mechanism towards muscular hypertrophy...

Now that we're aware of which compounds work through which mechanism,how do we combine them effectively to maximize each one's potential?As explained above,Testosterone and trenbelone should form the base of any serious steroid stack,but great effects can be had by combining single mechanism steroids from opposing classes....Examples of this type of synergistic combining could be(but are not limited to)

*CUTTING*
Winstrol & Equipoise
Winstrol & Primobolan
Fluoxymesterone & Equipoise or Primobolan

*BULKING*
Deca & Dianabol
Anadrol & Equipoise or Primobolan
Winstrol & deca

And of course,using test or tren as the base compound for either cutting or bulking will only make results that much more explosive.If using test for cutting,an anti-aromitase should be incorporated...Huck

=============
Post from Ranger=
=============
A close friend of mine just finished a 12 week cycle, which included Liquidex.....This guy is 5'9 and weighs around 240(hard)....but, he puts on water like no other I have ever seen....

He did a gram a week of sus 250, 600mg's of EQ, and 50mg's of dbol(first 5 weeks only)....on a very similar cycle last year, he shot up to 275....I started calling him " The Great Pumpkin " because of all the water retention around his big jelly head....

With clomid at 50mg's eod, and adding the liquidex, the results were outstanding!!!!

His water retention was minimal at best, weight went to 262, with little estrogenic fat, or sides for that matter....in fact, he actually got a more hard look to him, rather than the " Bulk " look that one would associate with this type cycle.....Blood pressure stayed almost normal for the entire cycle, blood work will be done in two weeks....

Now, before everyone jumps to the gram a week mark, this guy is a long term user with alot of experience under his belt, so a word of caution....and very few sources carry legit Liquidex and doing source checks is a must if you decide to put it in your next cycle.....

Comparing prices of liquidex for this cycle, and Armidex if it was used....heh heh heh....it was well below what it would've been if Armidex was used alone....I think Liquidex is here to stay, and those with gyno problems would benefit greatly from it.....not to pricy either....


Just a bit of food for thought....

Ranger

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...702093973&f=312093973&m=2110990741#5140924741

 

[Enzo250]

test is fine for cutting

Test is a great cutting tool you just need to know how to use it... Whoever said that test should not be used for cutting should not use AS at all...
Enough Said:

Francis: if i were you i would use Test Prop with your T3/Clen/ECA cycle... 100mg EOD should do the trick and not hurt your wallet... oh and if your worried about estrogen just take some proviron....

 

[body my way]

What about nolvadex can that be used if you cant get arimidex.will that keep the water weight down

 

[Horny]

I am not going to continue to debate this issue with you. It is clear that you have never used Arimidex nor have much experience using AS. I will simply post facts that our mods and other very experienced vets have said about my points. I just wish that people that do not have any experience using certain substances would not make statements without knowing the facts.
There are many other post and scientific data that supports my points I will let you do the research and decide...



http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...702093973&f=312093973&m=2110990741#5140924741

WHAT THE HELLARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have used arimidex many times. IT IS A FACT, ARIMIDEX ONLY ELIMINATES 50 % of estrogen. It might eliminate 80 percent of the aromatase receptors, but this only represents a 50 perent reduction in estradiol levels and this is in men who aren't even using steroids. Don't talk your hoighty toighty snobby crap. YOu don't know what you are talking about, you are flat out wrong, and you are telling me that you won't talk to me abou it anymore because I don't know what I am talking about, That just makes you a big assed face ass.

BTW what is liquidex, does it deliever more miligrams of arimidex to the body than the standard 1mg pill will?

 

[DSPO]

BTW what is liquidex, does it deliever more miligrams of arimidex to the body than the standard 1mg pill will?

LOL....do a search rookie

 

[anabolic24/7]

DSPO is on the money, of course I am only basing this assertion on experiance.

 

[Ulter]

Horny knows by now that when he sees my name on a thread that it is usually to correct a mistaken notion he has posted. This time he is right and wrong. Arimidex in men has only been shown to reduce 50% of the estrogen. That is right.
Test is not a cutting drug. That is wrong. While test may increase you estradiol levels greatly, and it may not, that's what determines whether you get gyno or not, arimidex will lower them. Agreed? Good. If arimidex lowers the estrogen while you are adding a huge amount of test then the test wins. The test will burn more fat than the estrogen can deposit in your midsection. The purpose of the arimidex is to create an imbalance in favor of the test. Calories and the type of calories determines cutting or bulking cycles.

 

[jarabbit]

Thanks Ulter for a simple understandeable explanation of this debate. So without arimidex one should probably stay away from test when cutting, at least at 500 mg's or higher.

 

[Ulter]

Yes.

 

[solidspine]

I read your cycle again and agree, add more primo,

I have a friend who only takes primo at present and he looks like a pro.

He has done about 7 cycles but for the past 18 months, nothing but ECA, clen and primo and the guy looks great,

I'm adding primo to my next cycle.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Ulter and DSPO are dead on.Test + arimidex=Perfect cutting combination...I say this not only from personal experience,but from the experience of many friends and clients.The two together create an environment that is very favorable when in ketosis,and arimidex is more than ample enough to keep bloat/female fat-pattern distribution at bay...I've seen it countless times....

 

[DSPO]

I see the big boys are out in force today...heh heh

As I said before Test is great for cutting when used with Arimidex.

 

[DSPO]

I think the debate has ended no more Horny :EL:

 

[Horny]

I stand by my opinion. But I'll clarify a little more on the specifics. I would'nt ever use 500 mg/week + of testosterone even with arimidex for a "cutting" cycle. I might use 500mg with arimidex for a cuting cycle, but it would ultimately not be as good as using something else that doesn't aromatise in a hefty dosage. Total estradiol is an important thing, not just estradiol/androgens ratio.

One other thing is that using alot of test can cause estradiol/androgen imbalances post cyle for a month or so in which time you can rebound from the cutting cycle and put on even more fat. This is one of the biggest problems.

 

[Cuts]

Ulter and DSPO are dead on.Test + arimidex=Perfect cutting combinationThe two together create an environment that is very favorable when in ketosis,and arimidex is more than ample enough to keep bloat/female fat-pattern distribution at bay.

I'm already carrying a heavy load (22% bf) and dont' want to put on any more. My cutting cycle's EQ @250/week, Primo @ 300/week, and Sust @250/week. Should I pop some Arimidex just to be on the safe side or is Nolv+Prov enough? Also, if so, how much Arimidex (damn expensive)?

 

[Horny]

Let me just ask you all something. Do you think that any good bb use alot of test in the weeks leading up to a competition?

Bottom line is that trenbolone acetate (fina, parabolan, etc.) and masteron are the ultimate cutting aas because they don't aromatise and are strong androgenic/anabolic agents. Primobolan and winstrol in good dosages come in second place. Testosterone and oral dbols comes in last.

Can you use test for cutting? I never said that you couldn't. You can, there are simply superior options. I just said that it isn't a grand myth that it isn't the best drug for cutting.

 

[Fonz]

No offense guys, but horny has some very good points.
Test+Arimidex WILL RAISE ESTROGEN LEVELS
NO MATTER WHAT.
Winstrol/Anavar/Primo WILL NOT.

Anyways, I really don't want to get into another
test debate(those things just go on and on and on
forever...LOL), so I'll explain the science behind
ECA+Clen.

Clenbuterol is what we call a selective beta-2
agonist. It binds SOLELY to the beta-2
receptors and activates them.
Ephedrine is what we call an UN-selective beta
agonist. It binds to the Beta-1's,2's and 3's in
the following fashionThis information has
been extrapolated from studies in Medline using
selective beta-blockers+ephedrine to determine
ephedrine's adrenergic stimulus on each
beta-adrenoreceptor)

Beta-1's: 20%
Beta-2's: 37%
Beta-3's: 43%

While Clen is around 90-95% Beta-2's.

For fat-loss the only two relevant receptors are the
beta-2's and beta-3's which control mucle temp
and BAT thermogenesis respectively.

Now, ECA dosages CANNOT be lowered as ephedrine
stimulates the beta-3's while Clen DOES NOT.
ECA dosages are 25/250 3 times a day.


So, what a person has to figure out is exactly how much
Clen he/she has to add to further stimulate the beta-2's
(already being stimuated by the ephedrine) in order
for the beta-2's to be at PEAK STIMULATION.

60mcgs/dayis about normal in order to reach PEAK
ADRENERGIC STIMULATION of the beta-2's.

Thats how ECA+Clen work synergistically.

Anything over 60mcgs Clen/day WILL JUST INCREASE
BP and side-effects. I believe Decaman experienced
high BP. This was the reason why. He used TOO
MUCH CLEN.

This stack(ECA+Clen) can be further potentiated
with the addition of Ketotifen. But thats another
story.

Godspeed

 

[DSPO]

Can you use test for cutting? I never said that you couldn't. You can, there are simply superior options. I just said that it isn't a grand myth that it isn't the best drug for cutting.

I see that you are back pedaling a bit here. But what could be expected after the post from Ulter and Huck. No where in this thread did anyone state that test was the absolute best AS for cutting except you just now(nice mis-quote) and you did say that test was not good for cutting.

Look at my cycle above as you can see the bulk of it is EQ and then tren and winny. We were originally asked by FD if he could use test in the place of additional primo because of the cost and the answer is yes but only if used with arimidex.

And I never verbally insulted you like you did calling me an "big assed faced ass". Nice quote I think I will use that one some day...That just shows your level of maturity young blood.

Anyway looks like you finally agree that test and cutting is cool...