Strength Training Cycle?

[strongsmartsexy]

I saw this routine in the June issue of MuscleMag. It's supposed to be for intense strength training and mass building. Opinions?

Monday (Heavy Day)
Squats: 5 sets of 5 reps, working to max on the final set, with a back-off set of 8
Bench Presses: 5 sets of 5, to limit, with a back-off set of 8. Ever other week use this sequence: 3 sets of 5 followed by 3 sets of 3 plus a back off set.
Deadlifts: 5 sets of 5, alternating every other week with 3 sets of 5, then 3 sets of 3.
Incline dumbbells: 2 sets of 20
Calf Raises: 3 set of 30

Wednesday (light day)
Squats: 5 set of 5, using 50 lbs less on the final set than was used on the heaviest set on Monday. No back-off. You can also substitute lunges for squats on this day. Do 4 sets of 8, 4 reps per leg
Good Mornings: 4 sets of 8, Your goal on these is to use 50 percent for 8 reps of what you are squating on your last set on the heavy day.
Incline Bench Presses: 5 sets of 5 to limit with a back-off set of 8. Every other week change to 3 sets of 5 plus 3 sets of 3 with a back-off of 8.
Straight-arm pullovers: 2 sets of 20.
Curls: You can use dumbells, and EZ-curl bar, or straight bar for 3 sets of 15.

Friday: (medium day)
Squats: 3 sets of 5 followed by 2 sets of 3 to limit. The final set should be 10lbs more than your final set of 5 that you did on Monday. At the next heavy session you will do this top-end triple for 5 reps. Add in a back off set of 8.
Bench Presses: 4 sets of 8, plus 2 sets of 2 to max.
Shrugs: Use a bar and do 5 or 6 sets of 5, working heavy.
Seated dumbell presses: 3 sets of 15
Triceps pushdowns: 2 sets of 20.
Curls 2 sets of 20.

It seems light on back work, and a set of 3 reps seems not enough.

Comments?

 

[Omegasox]

Monday (Heavy Day)
Squats: 5 sets of 5 reps, working to max on the final set, with a back-off set of 8
Bench Presses: 5 sets of 5, to limit, with a back-off set of 8. Ever other week use this sequence: 3 sets of 5 followed by 3 sets of 3 plus a back off set.
Deadlifts: 5 sets of 5, alternating every other week with 3 sets of 5, then 3 sets of 3.
Incline dumbbells: 2 sets of 20

I'd be dragging doing all of that in one day.

 

[jwwpua]

I'd be dragging doing all of that in one day.

Agreed. I would die.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I'd be dragging doing all of that in one day.

Do you think it's a conditioning, lack of enough eating, or lack of appropriate "supplementation"?

 

[NeoSoul]

Try westside enstead.

 

[TENPACK]

that is a classic Bill Starr routine without a doubt, something i am actually embarking on starting tomorrow. There are some variations of it, but it is a tried and true program Starr published in his book THE STRONG SHALL SURVIVE. As for what the others said about it being too much, well it can be, so if you decide to do it, work into it gradually, but follow the basic principles of the heavy/light/medium system.

 

[JT Iron]

Try westside enstead.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Do you have a pointer to this?

 

[lavi]

I'm doing 5x5 for at least the next few months, but I'm making a WSB routine based off these:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=184837&highlight=westside+routine

http://elitefts.com/documents/a_question_of_strength.htm

http://elitefts.com/documents/bobyoungs-sampleworkout.htm


There are a lot of articles at elitefts.com

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I'm doing 5x5 for at least the next few months, but I'm making a WSB routine based off these:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=184837&highlight=westside+routine

http://elitefts.com/documents/a_question_of_strength.htm

http://elitefts.com/documents/bobyoungs-sampleworkout.htm


There are a lot of articles at elitefts.com

K for the links.

 

[Scotsman]

Ok let's see here.

Squats three times per week. Fast ticket to injuries of knees back and it will kill your immune system

Doing major compound movements heavy on the same day. Disasterous to those who aren't sporting the chemical profile of a organon lab rat.

Working to max weight on reps weekly is a quick way to fuck up tendons and joints.

Basically the only way to accomplish anything but injury on this program is to be taking more juice than a florida orange farm.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Becoming]

Dude I have seen lots of programs like that... it is a bit much to do squats 3 times a week, and Deads and GMs twice... I guess it depends on the intensity level... and I don't really see the point of lifting unless you plan on going all out...

It will work for a bit depending on your training level... I think you will end up injured or overtrained after that... if you really want to get strong, I recommend WSB or MM style training...

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Ok let's see here.

Squats three times per week. Fast ticket to injuries of knees back and it will kill your immune system

Doing major compound movements heavy on the same day. Disasterous to those who aren't sporting the chemical profile of a organon lab rat.

Working to max weight on reps weekly is a quick way to fuck up tendons and joints.

Basically the only way to accomplish anything but injury on this program is to be taking more juice than a florida orange farm.

Cheers,
Scotsman

I was thinking that this is a juicing routine, but so much about training changes so fast that I know I don't keep up with it all.

I believe I have the stamina for a Monday routine, but am not sure I could sustain the Wed and Fri for very long. I've not been on a cycle yet.

On the other hand, I would hate to not try something just because I'm not eating well enough or just don't have the mind for it.

Injuries SUCK!

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Yep, that is classic Bill Starr. It is a great routine for an athlete. I do understand how most people in this day and age would scratch their heads at it because all they see are one bodypart per week bodybuilding splits. This is strength training for athletes.

I understand the posts by WSB followers quick to dismiss by simply saying 'West Side'. I am probably gonna get torched for this, and I do know WSB has been modified in cases for athletes, but PERSONALLY I think West Side is geared more for a competitive powerlifter looking to train various weak points in their 3 competitive lifts. Bill Starr routines are to develop not just strength, but the ability to use that strength when you are tired, such as the 4th quarter of a football game or an overtime rideout of a wrestling match. In those cases, I would rather the total package a Starr program provides, than a bigger bench/squat/deadlift. ALSO, Starr programs are not so far off base than an Eastern European Program (which is what WSB really is). Some Starr routines call for a light day of 6x2 at 65% followed by several singles, sounds similar to a WSB speed day.

Finally, you can't dive into the program listed above. You need to build your base of strength and slowly condition yourself by raising the workload and adding exercises and extra work. You should start with the Big 3, Bench Press, Squat, and Power Clean (in the case of BB you can substitute deadlifts, however I feel even BB's should at least know how to clean a barbell). Once you're conditioned, you will never feel properly worked by a bodybuilding split. There are days I train flat bench on mon, overhead press on tues, and inclines on Wed. I make progress, I don't feel overtrained, and I weigh 260 at 5'11, so I am not skinny from all the work. it is, however a system and a lifestyle that requires committment and a gradual build to full force.

 

[Scotsman]

Yep, that is classic Bill Starr. It is a great routine for an athlete. I do understand how most people in this day and age would scratch their heads at it because all they see are one bodypart per week bodybuilding splits. This is strength training for athletes.

I understand the posts by WSB followers quick to dismiss by simply saying 'West Side'. I am probably gonna get torched for this, and I do know WSB has been modified in cases for athletes, but PERSONALLY I think West Side is geared more for a competitive powerlifter looking to train various weak points in their 3 competitive lifts. Bill Starr routines are to develop not just strength, but the ability to use that strength when you are tired, such as the 4th quarter of a football game or an overtime rideout of a wrestling match. In those cases, I would rather the total package a Starr program provides, than a bigger bench/squat/deadlift. ALSO, Starr programs are not so far off base than an Eastern European Program (which is what WSB really is). Some Starr routines call for a light day of 6x2 at 65% followed by several singles, sounds similar to a WSB speed day.

Finally, you can dive into the program listed above. You need to build your base of strength and slowly condition yourself by raising the workload and adding exercises and extra work. You should start with the Big 3, Bench Press, Squat, and Power Clean (in the case of BB you can substitute deadlifts, however I feel even BB's should at least know how to clean a barbell).

No torching just a counter point. In college we got a new strength coach he had the guys doing a program like this even during the football season. Result was something like a %500 rise in injuries from where they were under the last coach. This might not be a bad routine for newer guys to get into shape but as an athlete also doing sport specific work there just isn't enough rest with a Starr type of program. I know Nebraska did a study a long time ago and found that training like movements in the same week worked better than repeating heavy compounds. Like doing squats on mondays cleans on wednesdays etc. Then during the actual season the workload decreased by almost half. My highschool used this program and we were stronger and in better shape than any school we played. I do agree that a strict powerlifting or bodybuilding routine is too limited and specific for an athlete.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Scotsman]

I was thinking that this is a juicing routine, but so much about training changes so fast that I know I don't keep up with it all.

I believe I have the stamina for a Monday routine, but am not sure I could sustain the Wed and Fri for very long. I've not been on a cycle yet.

On the other hand, I would hate to not try something just because I'm not eating well enough or just don't have the mind for it.

Injuries SUCK!

Yeah first off those guys are taking rediculous amounts of gear. Then they all exaggerate their programs for the books and magazines. My old boss used to be a world class cyclist (trained with greg lamond and lance armstrong) and he would read some of the books guys would write and they had doubled the actual work they did just because that's what people want to see. Who is impress by a guy doing 5x5 curls with 50lb dumbells when some other guy says he does 5x10 with the 100's? See what I am getting at those magazines don't take into account the average lifter and let the guys get into pissing contests about who does the most reps or weight.

Yeah there just isn't enough recovery built into that routine without "help".

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Yeah there just isn't enough recovery built into that routine without "help".

Cheers,
Scotsman

That's what I was thinking. I know it takes my legs about 5 days to recover from the punishment they take during leg days. I'm not sure how I'd be able to do squats at these weights 3 days a week with only 1 day in between...

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

No torching just a counter point. In college we got a new strength coach he had the guys doing a program like this even during the football season. Result was something like a %500 rise in injuries from where they were under the last coach. This might not be a bad routine for newer guys to get into shape but as an athlete also doing sport specific work there just isn't enough rest with a Starr type of program. I know Nebraska did a study a long time ago and found that training like movements in the same week worked better than repeating heavy compounds. Like doing squats on mondays cleans on wednesdays etc. Then during the actual season the workload decreased by almost half. My highschool used this program and we were stronger and in better shape than any school we played. I do agree that a strict powerlifting or bodybuilding routine is too limited and specific for an athlete.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Actually, I think we are gonna see eye to eye on this and I will explain why. For someone new to this type of training, or someone coming off an extended layoff , they build their base by doing just bench/squat/clean for a few weeks. it is repetitive, but they are just conditioning themselves and running up their conditioning and ability to do a lot of work. Starr says he wouldn't let his athletes use more than 135 on the squat the first couple of weeks, maybe 225 if they are a 500+ squatter.

Once the poundages increase as the program progresses, you do something similar to what scotsman said. Say this....

Heavy Monday

Back Squat (135/225/315x warm ups/ 405x5/5/5)
Flat Bench Press (135/225/315 x warmups/ 350x5/5/5)
Deadlift (135/225/315/365 x warm ups / 425x5/5/5)

Light Wednesday

Jump Squat (135x5/ 185x5/205x5/5)
Dips (2x8/2x5/1x3)
Power Snatch (95x5/135x5/185x triples until form gets sloppy)
Meduim Friday

Front Squat (135x5/225x5/275x5/315x3/3)
Incline Press (135x5/225x5/275x5/295x5/315x5)
Hang Clean (135x5/185x5/225x5/245x5/265x5)

This is just an example, but I didn't clarify this in my first post. But do you see what I mean in terms of the poundages relating the the athlete's strength on a H-L-M system.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Also, Scotsman, I just read your newer post and you are right about the BS. The routines that Miami, Nebraska, LSU, and USC follow that are all the rage are blown up in magazines. I KNOW those guys can't do clean pulls on Monday and then Hang Cleans on Tuesday, juice or not. Although, I will speak from experience, juice helps, Test for recovery and Deca for the joints and Equipoise for good measure is the ideal athlete's stack.

But nobody can Flat Bench/Incline Bench/CLose-Grip Bench/Back Squat/Front Squat/Barbell Lunge/Behine-The-Neck Press/Clean Pull on Monday including running in both the AM and PM, then come in on Tues and do Power Clean/Hang Clean/Power Snatch/Hang Snatch/then wear out on a Hammer Jammer and throw in back/bis for shits and giggles, plus a run in the AM and PM. This is the "famous" college workout everyone is so in awe over, yet never sa anyone do. The people writing the books want you to think the athletes are super human, news flash, I was once one of those athletes, and I am NOT superhuman, I could never train like this, and I too have used the above mentioned stack. A kid I played against in high school played for Miami, one summer he was in for a week, and I was in for the summer, and we were training at the same commercial gym and Do you know what this starter for the Miami O-Line and now NFL Lineman did??? Hang Clean/Front Squat/Overhead Press/and some accessory work like lat pulldowns/triceps pressdowns/ab work/etc. It wasn't the shit you read about, BUT it worked and worked well.

But anyway, I think I misrepresented myself on the first post, I hope I cleared it up. BTW, I played for a nationally ranked D II team, not Miami or Nebraska or LSU or USC, I don't wanna misrepresent myself there either, LOL, but like I said, they train very similar to what Scotsman said and I agreed with, it isn't the ridiculous stuff you read about.

 

[Becoming]

Good points by both Scots and BBBD...

I think one has to consider in evaluating this program is what SSS's goals are- maybe he can add some information there as well?... I think depending on your goals, you might better able to get suggestions as to a routine to follow...

As for most trainees, I think a program like this, or similar are probably not quite the ticket for all the reasons mentioned - might be quite difficult on recovery, may lead to frequent injury, and need plenty of time ramping up and getting into condition for (as mentioned previous)... Also- yes it is quite similar to "bulgarian" programs I have seen, and yes, there is quite a bit of conditioning that must happen before hand...

Similarly, I think a pure WSB or MM program are probably also not the ticket, unless the trainees are wanting to competitively powerlift...

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Good points by both Scots and BBBD...

I think one has to consider in evaluating this program is what SSS's goals are- maybe he can add some information there as well?... I think depending on your goals, you might better able to get suggestions as to a routine to follow...

As for most trainees, I think a program like this, or similar are probably not quite the ticket for all the reasons mentioned - might be quite difficult on recovery, may lead to frequent injury, and need plenty of time ramping up and getting into condition for (as mentioned previous)... Also- yes it is quite similar to "bulgarian" programs I have seen, and yes, there is quite a bit of conditioning that must happen before hand...

Similarly, I think a pure WSB or MM program are probably also not the ticket, unless the trainees are wanting to competitively powerlift...

I look just to build some quality muscle, build strength, keep in shape, reduce stress and mix it up so my body doesn't adapt. I'm not interested in being a power lifter nor am I interested in being a competitive body builder. Although, I'd be significantly more likely compete in a PL event than a body building competition. I just don't want to look like a powerlifter.

 

[Becoming]

I look just to build some quality muscle, build strength, keep in shape, reduce stress and mix it up so my body doesn't adapt. I'm not interested in being a power lifter nor am I interested in being a competitive body builder. Although, I'd be significantly more likely compete in a PL event than a body building competition. I just don't want to look like a powerlifter.

the top two things you mentioned are build muscle and strength and keep in shape.... is athletic ability important to you at all?

I would assume you would rank you top 3 priorities:
1-build muscle
2-build strenght
3-keep in shape

I could see how a more "watered-down" version of the program you posted might be appropriate.... (just because it seems like a lot to do) I don't think you need a program where you are doing both upper and lower everyday to accomplish your goals...

I think sticking with the basics and splitting it into 2 days, upper and lower and doing 3 days a week might be appropriate... Mon1-Lower, Wed1-Upper, Fri1-Lower, Mon2-Upper, etc

Unless there is some reason you want to do both upper and lower everyday....

lets see what BBBD and Scots think....

 

[strongsmartsexy]

the top two things you mentioned are build muscle and strength and keep in shape.... is athletic ability important to you at all?

I would assume you would rank you top 3 priorities:
1-build muscle
2-build strenght
3-keep in shape

I could see how a more "watered-down" version of the program you posted might be appropriate.... (just because it seems like a lot to do) I don't think you need a program where you are doing both upper and lower everyday to accomplish your goals...

I think sticking with the basics and splitting it into 2 days, upper and lower and doing 3 days a week might be appropriate... Mon1-Lower, Wed1-Upper, Fri1-Lower, Mon2-Upper, etc

Unless there is some reason you want to do both upper and lower everyday....

lets see what BBBD and Scots think....

I'm almost 47. The gym is the only real excersize I get, besides doing yard work. So athleticism isn't really that important as I have a desk job. I do yoga once a week to keep flexibility though. My neck swivel works just fine thank you...

RIght now I do a split like this
Mon - Chest/back/abs/calves
Wed - Legs
Fri - Shoulders/arms/abs/calves

Getting in more than 3 days a week isn't viable for me.

 

[Scotsman]

Ok let's see if I can sort all of this into one reply.

BBBD29- Yep we are synched up now and in agreement.

SSS- Yes your split up of that routine is about what I would suggest. The closest I come to a split like the original is when I am doing actual comp training. Then I do:
Monday Squats +ham and quad work
Wed Bench plus shoulder and tri
Fri Deadlifts + lay in puddle of own sweat and pain.

Also come on what's wrong with looking like a powerlifter we are all such beautiful people

Becoming- That straight rotation is not a bad idea that way you get varying rest periods and can keep a good check on each phase of a mini-cycle.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Also come on what's wrong with looking like a powerlifter we are all such beautiful people
Cheers,
Scotsman

Um, well, most of the power lifters I have seen are massive, which is good, but also have a sizeable gut, which is not so desireable for me.

 

[Scotsman]

Um, well, most of the power lifters I have seen are massive, which is good, but also have a sizeable gut, which is not so desireable for me.

Don't think of it as a gut. Think of it as a gas tank for a love machine.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Don't think of it as a gut. Think of it as a gas tank for a love machine.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Well, I already have the solar panel for a sex machine, however, the spousal unit prefers the tapered look to the barrel look.

 

[JT Iron]

Do westside and add hypertrophy work.

 

[lavi]

Do westside and add hypertrophy work.

It seems to me that westside has a lot of high rep (8+) stuff; wouldn't that provide a decent amount of hypertrophy already?

 

[JT Iron]

It seems to me that westside has a lot of high rep (8+) stuff; wouldn't that provide a decent amount of hypertrophy already?

Yep.