soldier sentenced

[Nubly]

finally one of the soldiers who abused the prisoners at abu ghraib gets sentenced. he gets a year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. though i dont see what the pont of rank reduction is if he is going to be discharged

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Thats a fair punishment.. it just isnt that big of a deal..

they are dumb kids led by other dumb kids.. whom are led by army officers. the worst of the lot...

 

[Code]

Because he still gets paid while in prison.
It effectively lowers his pay.

Wow, soldiers now getting jailed for following orders. Lovely.

finally one of the soldiers who abused the prisoners at abu ghraib gets sentenced. he gets a year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. though i dont see what the pont of rank reduction is if he is going to be discharged

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

 

[WODIN]

That this has to be done makes this a sad day indeed.

 

[Nubly]

Wow, soldiers now getting jailed for following orders. Lovely.

there are some orders that they can disobey. the treatment of these prisoners is an order that they can, and should have, disobeyed

 

[Code]

No, there aren't. Unless you actively challenge your commanding officer and agree to go to jail until the matter is resolved.

Disobeying orders in wartime is called treason.

there are some orders that they can disobey. the treatment of these prisoners is an order that they can, and should have, disobeyed

 

[Apöllo]

Rummy should get a year in a Federal Ass Pounding Prison and get a rank reduction to Sec. of Education.

 

[Nubly]

No, there aren't. Unless you actively challenge your commanding officer and agree to go to jail until the matter is resolved.

Disobeying orders in wartime is called treason.

no. where did you get that information? in basic training, they go over this. if you receive an order that is breaking the law, then you can disobey it- wartime or peacetime

 

[Bulldog_10]

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

Are you kidding me? You hope they get it worse than a year in prison...wow.

I laughed my ass off when I heard that some Iraqis (family members of the "tortured") were calling for the death penalty. LOL...dumb fuckers.

 

[digger]

No, there aren't. Unless you actively challenge your commanding officer and agree to go to jail until the matter is resolved.

Nuremburg established that individual soldiers have an affirmative duty to do that.

Disobeying orders in wartime is called treason.

US Constitution, Section 3. "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Disobeying orders is called "disobeying orders" or "mutiny." And doesn't get interesting until someone specifies it as "disobeying a lawful order."

 

[Code]

Ok, how many soldiers do you know actually know the laws within the UCMJ?

You know these guys got briefed regarding how to prep the soliders for interrogation and you know somewhere along the lines this was covered.
(Assuming you've ever served, which I doubt)

If you want this type of thing to stop, you don't punish the soldiers. You go as far up as you can. Officers are more apt to question orders than grunts.

no. where did you get that information? in basic training, they go over this. if you receive an order that is breaking the law, then you can disobey it- wartime or peacetime

 

[Nubly]

Ok, how many soldiers do you know actually know the laws within the UCMJ?

You know these guys got briefed regarding how to prep the soliders for interrogation and you know somewhere along the lines this was covered.
(Assuming you've ever served, which I doubt)

true that not alot of soliders know everything about UCMJ. but its a known fact that mistreating POWs is a war crime. and yes, i was in the military briefly

 

[Code]

There are provisions within the UCMJ for actual POW's.

Now the current debate in DC is whether or not those soldiers were POWs or if they fell into Bush's terrorist category.

So if the Secretary of Defense isn't sure if they are POWs or terrorists, how do you expect a grunt making 1100 a month (before taxes) to know?

Getting gleeful over someone being jailed and dishonorably discharged for following orders is ghastly.

true that not alot of soliders know everything about UCMJ. but its a known fact that mistreating POWs is a war crime. and yes, i was in the military briefly

 

[LanceMan]

Nubly,

You really need to stand back and take a good look at what you are saying.

 

[from zero]

Ok, how many soldiers do you know actually know the laws within the UCMJ?

Ignorance is no excuse.

Having said that, still not sure what to think of this punishment. On the one hand, they claim they didn't know it was wrong, and we just following orders. On the other hand, as I said, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I think the punishment is a bit severe though. A dishonorable discharge is all they should get, IMO.



Funny, you don't hear shit about anyone getting punished for Guantanamo, do you? You KNOW those prisoners got abused.

This is all the media's fault. And the douche that leaked the photos out to begin with. And the douche that thought taking the photos was a hot idea. Moron.

 

[Nubly]

So if the Secretary of Defense isn't sure if they are POWs or terrorists, how do you expect a grunt making 1100 a month (before taxes) to know?

youre going to trell me that these soldiers didnt know that having their prisoners parade around nakind, pilke them over each other, belittle them and take pictuires of all this isnt wrong? they are adulsts you know. they dont need babysitters telling them whats right or wrong

 

[Code]

I'm sure duing the briefing before they starting prepping prisoners, they covered how they should be treated.

And the fact that someone WOULD know it's wrong is more evidence that they were acting under orders to do so.

youre going to trell me that these soldiers didnt know that having their prisoners parade around nakind, pilke them over each other, belittle them and take pictuires of all this isnt wrong? they are adulsts you know. they dont need babysitters telling them whats right or wrong

 

[sh4dowf4lcon]

I agree with FZ on all counts.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

They didnt deserve prison.. a Big Chicken Dinner is bad enough.. forever abrred from ANY kind of Federal job they cant even work for a contracter who has a federal account..


The only one who deserves any jail time is that dumbfuck chick smiling and giving a thumbs up.. she needs to be made an example of..

 

[Code]

Nor can they own firearms.
Or get federal assistance for college or small businesses.

They didnt deserve prison.. a Big Chicken Dinner is bad enough.. forever abrred from ANY kind of Federal job they cant even work for a contracter who has a federal account..


The only one who deserves any jail time is that dumbfuck chick smiling and giving a thumbs up.. she needs to be made an example of..

 

[p0ink]

why is everyone still wringing their hands over this 'abuse' scandal?

 

[Nubly]

The only one who deserves any jail time is that dumbfuck chick smiling and giving a thumbs up.. she needs to be made an example of..
Online!

yes. her along with anyone else involved in this. those prisoners are human beings

 

[rrrr]

Fuck that. I'm glad they did that to those prisoners. Fuck all of them. Its about time we did something like that. In the past it always seems as if other countries that we have fought against in war have tortured our soldiers. You always hear POW telling what happened to them, you dont see any other country sending there soilders to jail infact, they applaud it. So its about time we did some shit. They still should continue doing shit, but even worse, like killing or better yet beheading them.
I know what people are going to say...........then you are just as bad as them, guess what I say lets be worse than them.

 

[Nubly]

I know what people are going to say...........then you are just as bad as them, guess what I say lets be worse than them.

easy there tough guy

 

[Code]

Fight!
Fight!

**ding ding**

easy there tough guy

 

[rrrr]

Not trying to be a tough guy or anything. I'm just tired of our POW getting tortured while we treat our prisoners like they live in a hotel. Shit I bet you they(Iraq) rather be a POW in US custody, cause they get treated better than in their own country.

 

[rpol]

Yes they do get treated better than by their own people,yes its a sad situation, but I served and have been in a free company and have seen worse.War sucks all around especially for the innocents that didn't start it.
Nuff said.

 

[bodytemple75]

finally one of the soldiers who abused the prisoners at abu ghraib gets sentenced. he gets a year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. though i dont see what the pont of rank reduction is if he is going to be discharged

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

Yeah,..." A real fucking triumph." This is a very sad, and disturbing day in American history. Now we are jailing our own soldiers for the equilivant of College Frat Prank type of shit. During wartime no less. Maybe in the next war we could have suites for the prisoners at the Waldorf Austoria, and have them brought up Champagne and fruit. Just make it real cozy. I'm sure they would have for the U.S. boys. Gimme' a fucking break, now....!! This is bullshit, everyone with half a brain can see. The Americans involved should not have been jailed or taken down in rank. If anything, they should have been told now they should adhere to a strict policy of how to handle foreign POW's. This is fucking war. The US boys are being hung by the press for "humiliating" some Iraquis, but some foreigner, can cut off a POW American soldier's head off with a blunt knife, and proceed to rip the rest off, all the while the poor kid is alive? And, he is a damn civilian at that?....Wow,....something is "SERIOUSLY" wrong with shit in the United States, right now then,...I agree. Our main focus here today, is soooooo disgustingly sympathetic to Iraqui, and every move the U.S. government and armies of their own make are "hawked" by their own people and media. I myself, do not agree with the war. We should have went in there, took what we wanted, dropped a few bombs if need being, and left. Problem solved, let them clean up their own mess. It is not the "responsibility" of the American peoples, and "thier hard earned tax-paying dollars"to clean up and solve the rest of the world's economies, and their problems! Especially when they don't appreciate it. The other countries had half a brain, and left themselves out. They knew these people were "self destructive nutbags"...completely unsavable. What's new though...?! Old news now. The United States should really go after our own media. They have propelled, and contributed to having such rediculious stories to the point where it is disgraceful. (Perfect example of media bullshit....rent the movie "Return To Paridise.")These people should be facing jailtime, or a heavy, heavy fine. It is getting so gad damn bad in this country, it is almost like you have to have a team of lawyers with you at all times, just to make sure you are doing or saying the "POLITICALLY CORRECT" thing nowadays! Rediculious.

 

[bodytemple75]

easy there tough guy

"Prior" to this wartime effort with the United States & Iraq....


If one could go back in time for an "unbiased" look, I ask any fellow American and other foreign human being "sympothetic"to Iraqui's right now, to have spent just a "weekend" in one of their prisons before this war. Something tells me, they may change their minds....If they in fact, have made it out alive at all.
Gimme' a break!!!

The United States does more for the world, than most countries do for themselves. We are the most powerful, yet most "unappreciated" country in the world, by these same peoples we "help" and thier countries.


***THIS IS BULLSHIT, AND A DISGRACE TO FELLOW AMERICANS. THIS IS PETTY BULLSHIT, CONJURED UP ON A GRAND SCALE BY THE SLIMEBAG MEDIA, FOR RATINGS. DISGRACEFUL!!! THE US MEDIA SHOULD BE BROUGH UP ON CHARGES FOR SLANDER, CAUSING MASS PANIC, DEFORMATION OF CHARACTER, ECT, ECT...LIST GOES ON AND ON....

 

[Nubly]

to me, it has nothing with being politically correct. im a pacifist. i dont think any human being should be treated in such a manner. i dont even think animals should be mistreated. thats not to say that its ok for americas enemies to mistreat its people. "two wrongs dont make a right". and if im ignorant, unpatriotic or whatever because of my views, then so be it. it shows how you are, as a human being, by laughing and encouraging the mistreatment of those prisoners. but i guess not everyone has a humane side.

and if you think the US is the only country in iraq you are sadly mistaken. you would be surprised to find out how many countries are out there, combat troops and non-combat troops

 

[bodytemple75]

to me, it has nothing with being politically correct. im a pacifist. i dont think any human being should be treated in such a manner. i dont even think animals should be mistreated. thats not to say that its ok for americas enemies to mistreat its people. "two wrongs dont make a right". and if im ignorant, unpatriotic or whatever because of my views, then so be it. it shows how you are, as a human being, by laughing and encouraging the mistreatment of those prisoners. but i guess not everyone has a humane side.

and if you think the US is the only country in iraq you are sadly mistaken. you would be surprised to find out how many countries are out there, combat troops and non-combat troops

Wow!

This is the exact kind of thinking fueling, and bringing this country down, ultimately for disaster.

I am not, have not, or do not, Ehem...!!! "encourage" any POW wartime mistreatment of POW's anywhere. But you sir, are comparing "APPLES AND ORANGES" with your flawed arguement. Your suppossed wartime "crimes" by the US soldires are mere "college frat pranks" as any kid would go through to be in a college fraturnity. Jesus Christ!....The Iraqui answer to this is,...and has been DEATH, DEATH, DEATH, to the Americans, all the while, and even before! They (your comparisons) are not even in the same ball park! No way! If anything, the Americans, should have been told or "warned" about their conduct, and have to adhere to a stricter code. None of this bullshit "hype" about conduct was necessary. True, a prisoner should not be hurt, or killed. I agree, but other than that, some humane, but severe tactics are necessary in a means to extract information. Sleep deformation for one is a proven way to break a prisoner down to extract information. May I add,..."other countries do NOT!" Other countries, reside to "REAL TORTURE" my friend. (see MOVIE: MIDNIGHT EXPRESS 1978) I have no sympothy to a country of people who hate me. Yes there are people in that country who are opposed, but what are you going to do?! Go through the country picking weeding everyone out? THIS IS WAR MAN!!! If at all,...we should take some effort to acknowledge that,...but remembering we are in a damn war. WE HAVE SHOWED HOW "HUMANE" WE ARE BY DOING SIMPLY THIS!! What other counrty ever did such a thing, being sooooo sympothetic to their wartime rivals in the History of the worl? NONE!!! ZERO! You won't find any...The United States has done enough, and thensome for the Iraqi people, and AS ALWAYS....



WE ALWAYS WILL HAVE THE TYPES WHO FUEL THE BULLSHIT, AND TRULY MAKE AMERICA A SCARY PLACE TO LIVE.

 

[Nubly]

Wow!

Your suppossed wartime "crimes" by the US soldires are mere "college frat pranks" as any kid would go through to be in a college fraturnity. Jesus Christ!....The Iraqui answer to this is,...and has been DEATH, DEATH, DEATH, to the Americans, all the while, and even before!

sleep deprevation and things we have used before are ok. but humiliating a person in this manner shouldnt be ok. there werent just college frat pranks. the soldiers know of how strict their religion is. they know they cant parade around nude- especially in front of women. and to say that all iraqis hate americans is just plain stupidity. i can understand why they want us out, which would spawn hatred but i doubt the majority of them truly 'hate' americans.

 

[bodytemple75]

to me, it has nothing with being politically correct. im a pacifist. i dont think any human being should be treated in such a manner. i dont even think animals should be mistreated. thats not to say that its ok for americas enemies to mistreat its people. "two wrongs dont make a right". and if im ignorant, unpatriotic or whatever because of my views, then so be it. it shows how you are, as a human being, by laughing and encouraging the mistreatment of those prisoners. but i guess not everyone has a humane side.

and if you think the US is the only country in iraq you are sadly mistaken. you would be surprised to find out how many countries are out there, combat troops and non-combat troops

At what point in the Arguement did I ever express "laughter" or become "inhumane?" Somebody really needs to read before making blanket statements like this. I am sure almost everyone would agree that what Adolf Hitler did, and what those Arabs who killed and physically tortured Nick Berg are in the same catagory. Those are warcrimes my friend. Not what you speak of. What you have "accused" of Americans of warcrimes to Iraqui POW's do not even compare. No way, no how. END OF ARGUEMENT.

 

[bodytemple75]

sleep deprevation and things we have used before are ok. but humiliating a person in this manner shouldnt be ok. there werent just college frat pranks. the soldiers know of how strict their religion is. they know they cant parade around nude- especially in front of women. and to say that all iraqis hate americans is just plain stupidity. i can understand why they want us out, which would spawn hatred but i doubt the majority of them truly 'hate' americans.

Controlled, monitored cycles of very short periods of sleep, and aka: "deprived periods of sleep" are humane as a wartime tool. IMO "Just" as long as they do not get "out of control," they are a useful, "humane," tool in the US arsenal for extracting information. For that matter, anything out of moderation, is almost always cause for disaster. Now SD is FYI, Also used in other countries, and I am sure many would agree. If this is one of the worst "mistreatments" you are in for a shock. You could not even "dream" of what other forereign countries have in store for their POW's. Most, if not all POW's would beg for sleep deprovation afterwards...

Now,...


The American government, as all Americans know,... are no angels. And, I am sure there are a few things concerning missapropriated monies, lands, and information that have been "undisclosed" from the American peoples. But, that is to be expected with any government. Not, to say our government is all bad. Not at all. Nothing is perfect. Nowhere. If you find, one,...let me know,...I'm moving there.

RELIGION, RELIGION, RELIGION!!!.....If these people are sooooooo religious, why is it customary for their children to walk around armed? "Ahem"...."BEFORE THIS WAR"...I may add..... Furthermore,... Always some bullshit. I respect everyone's religion, and points of view, BUT "C'MMMOOOOONNNN!!! BUUUULLLLLSHIT!!!. Anyone can see the holes in this nonsense. Religion has no place in war. That is why these arabs have been at ar with eachother since the dawn of time, for Christ's sake!!@ They can't make up their own damn mind;s about what is PC corrrect withing their beliefs and customs, and EEEvvveeerrryyyyoonnnee is always "offending" this one,...and that one... GIMME A BREAK! If you say again, this is not, or war has no "political correct" refference you are either blind, lying, or just have to open you eyes from being shut!

Now back to religion and opinions,...

Everyone has the right for both. There are some things, that are just in the obvious though,.... of bullshit. What you have claimed as "warcrimes" are rediculious! Because the US soldiers undressed, and had men of Iraqui desent naked, ect,..ect...

This exactly did what?

...And, what would this do or effect, to peopl who see killings daily as a regular form of life?


You telling me, no iraqui had never watched telivision or radio? Wouldn't you agree that some things on either may be considered the same, as to the extent of "misuse" you claim from US soldiers to Iraqui POW's???



C'mon,....this is all BULLSHIT!

THIS IS A POLITICAL CORRECT WAR. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. BULLSHIT HYPED BY THIS NONSENSE IS WHAT IS TRULY DESTROYING AMERICA.




but....


EVERYONE HAS A 'RIGHT" TO THEIR OPINIONS in America..
Whether you agree or not.
I respect, still.... and acknowledge your arguement. Although I do not agree with you at all.

America is a great place to live because we have the right to choose. In Iraq, remember,...."you do not have that right." Keep that in mind.

 

[bodytemple75]

Also...

Q:

How could you "assume" every one person in the "opposing country" you are at war with would hate or not hate you? Also,...why would you bother? You are at war. Mere "common sense" dictates and leads to assume the unfavorable. Is that very hard to concieve? Sure some civilians and soldiers may not agree with a war, or not hate the enemy, but it is nerely imposible to assume the number of them, let alone this whole idea completely contrasts the idea of "WAR."

which proves my point....


AMERICANS ARE A HUMANE AND GOOD PEOPLE. WE HAVE, WILL, AND WOULD OEFFER HELP TO OTHERS IN NEED, SIMPLY BECAUSE WE ARE COMPASSIONATE, AND ARE A HUMANE AND GOOD PEOPLES.

Disregarding my assumptions, about this whole thing was all over Iraqui oil, and blew up in our faces with media hype.


We are still a good people to have done the right thing regardless...

NAME ONE COUNTRY WHO GAVE A SHIT ABOUT THEIR ENEMY POW'S DURING A WARTIME EFFORT. DURING ALL TIMES, COMPARE AND CONTRAST THOSE/ALL POW'S TO AMERICAN JAIL POW STANDARDS. I AM POSITIVE YOU WILL FIND THAT THE IRAQUI POW'S HAD A WEEKEND COUNTRY CLUB VISIT AS COMPARE TO ALL OTHERS."MOSTLY REFLECTING,...TO WHAT THEIR COUNTRY DOES TO IT'S OWN PEOPLES, IN THEIR JAILS!"

 

[bodytemple75]

humiliating a person in this manner shouldnt be ok. there werent just college frat pranks. the soldiers know of how strict their religion is. they know they cant parade around nude- especially in front of women./QUOTE]


This is "suuuuucccchhhh" a very "lame excuse," it is almost insane!!!



This is really disturbing. We are argueing because Americans soldiers are suppossedly evil, and are not allowed to "humiliate" Iraqui prisoners, in any way... in terms with Iraqui religion. Wow.....and what does this mean translated....

Who knows....

These people are still fighting wars over their religious beliefs. You expect Americans to understand what they mean, translate, and understand and confine to them when they do not even know what the fuck they are talking about???!!!!

C'mon man....

Wait,.....The United States should have a whole seperate rulebook made now of how to address each Iraqui POW prisoner formally. God, knows it will be thick as a damn bible. Mybe that will be allowed.




I still think the American soldiers did no wrong. Goofed around, maybe,...but ultimately did not, or do not expect the tratment and neverending bullshit they have to face because of all this propaganda. All hype'd up, and all bulshit. These guys are the reason why we have free speech, and a choice to say what we think and want.


Although, I still can't understand this war, and feel Bush is not a good leader, I still support the troops, and give the US soldiers all the respect they DESERVE. ALL of them....

 

[bodytemple75]

bump

 

[Nubly]

you misunderstood what i've said. and unlike you, i am not blaming an entire group for the actions of indivduals. im glad that soldier is going to jail and i hope they come down harder on the others. now stop reading this thread because youre getting too riled up

 

[BileStew]

You want info from an Iraqi soldier? Then have them sit through 12 hours non stop of The Bachelor.

They'll give up everything in a matter of minutes..

 

[rrrr]

Bodytemp, I totally agree with EVERYTHING you said. It's good to see someone finally speak up about this whole situation. Its war, when are some of us going to realize this.

 

[Nubly]

since when does taking pictures of nude men part of war? i must have missed that one

 

[Nubly]

and i am so disappointed to find out how much bigotry is in america

 

[Code]

Because EF represents all of America.



Kettle, this is Pot. Come in Kettle.

and i am so disappointed to find out how much bigotry is in america

 

[Nubly]

bigot? me? im sure your response has nothing to do with my dislkike towards the computer field. im too nice to be a bigot

 

[bodytemple75]

(Quote/nubly )

you misunderstood what i've said. and unlike you, i am not blaming an entire group for the actions of indivduals.

(bodytemple)
When did I ever "blame" the whole country and people of Iraq? I didn't. Never did. That's like saying, everyone in one country would have the same opionion on a war. I said,....(in so many other words) "obviously" people on both sides are going to have different opinions about a war between their two countries.... How and why would the "opposing" side care to skim through and weed these people out on the same people they are fighting? People who are oppsosed to war, should seek refuge away. The United states is ONLY RESPONSIBILY ARE IT'S AMERICANS. We come first. The whole idea of weeding through the good and bad people we are at war with is kind of dangerous....Huh?... Many would agree. Not first priority IMO. Americans come first, American safety is our first concern. Although, a very, very humane thing to do,(saving casulities)...almost no other country, including "IRAQ" practices this. You are "lucky" to leave their prisons "AT ALL ALIVE." This practice of saving the good vs. the bad is as dangerous to us as it is unpractical. It is a nice thought, but constantly opposed war, and leaves us with an even "bigger burden" on the USA's already heavy shoulders. This defies the whole concept of "WAR." I later said,....by doing this the Unites States is showing compassion, and what type of a people we are "BY HAVING DONE THIS." That is what I said,.....in so many other words. "Read" your back posts.



(Quote/Nubly)

since when does taking pictures of nude men part of war? i must have missed that one

(Bodytemple)
Since when did college type prank bullshit,...like "taking pictures of nude POW men" ever have been cause to sentence a man to a "serious" prison term, and/ or have taken his livelyhood away? It's "repremandable,"...at "best," but taken to this extreme, and made such a focus on today? ABSOLUTELY NO. There are far more severely important matters to be of concern in America. Gas prices, RX prices, Jobs, economy, (look at the billions we are giving Iraq for theirs...!!!!) The list just goes on and on... You were right. You obviously had must have missed something,..... You forgot about the kid who the Arabs cut off his head, and ripped the rest off, looking like a pig in a slaughter house.... Also, you may want to try looking into POW camps during the Vietnam war, and the conditions American POW's had to endure. Want to talk about naked? These guys were beaten, starved, and put in a hole in the ground for months at a time. Some of them were lucky to have a piece of "cloth" on thier bodies for protection against the elements,...."nevermind" clothes. Clothes were a luxury.


(Quote/Nubly)

and i am so disappointed to find out how much bigotry is in america

(Bodytemple)
If you are so fed up with America,.....and obviously you have "pegged" me, maybe not directly, but obviously indirectly, as a "BIGOT" simply because of my views expressed here. I have not "labeled" you as anything, and in fact, had told you I respected your views, even though i did not agree with any of them. Maybe you should move to Canada if you are so unhappy with America. Hey,.....better yet,....Iraq.

"Obviously,".....no one whole "peoples" as a whole are to blame for, or to be labeled as race as a whole responsible for an unpleasant incodent. In times of "War" obvious sides are chosen for "mere safety." This is universally known through sheer rational thinking. There is good and bad with everything, we already know this....War is unpleasant, everyone agrees, but to try to concentrate on weeding out the "few" on the opposing Country you are at War with is highly contradictory, as well as highly dangerous on any sides part. The United States has been doing the start. We nebver had to,....but we did it anyway. We are even funding this war with US Taxdollars. Name one single country who has done that with any other counrty when at war. Name just one.... You cant.


I'm finished.





**As always....I respect "everyone's" opionion/views.
As, we may not all "agree" with eachother, we are all entitled to an opinion, and a mutual respect for oneanother for having, and expressing them...

 

[mountain muscle]

finally one of the soldiers who abused the prisoners at abu ghraib gets sentenced. he gets a year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. though i dont see what the pont of rank reduction is if he is going to be discharged

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

Absolutely ridiculous, if this is "justice" in anyone's eyes let me know and I will send you some visine. If anyone believes that a low-ranking soldier who is charged with guarding some murderers, terrorists and enemy soldiers orchestrated this photo-op then I have a bridge to sell you, just outside of Iraq, in Syria above the WMDs people seem so concernced with are.

 

[mountain muscle]

yes. her along with anyone else involved in this. those prisoners are human beings

Who if they still had weapons in their hands would love a chance to kill you too Nubly.

 

[bodytemple75]

Who if they still had weapons in their hands would love a chance to kill you too Nubly.

Exactly the whole point I was trying to get across. How or why would you even want to play "pick and choose" over there when it is a "well documented" known area as an extremely dangerous, warzone pit over there? That is almost suicidal. It is, and has been long before 911 and this war, the "norm" for young children (boys)to carry firearms at all times, on their person with them.

What does that tell you....? C'mon...

 

[Nubly]

When did I ever "blame" the whole country and people of Iraq? I didn't. Never did. That's like saying, everyone in one country would have the same opionion on a war.

If these people are sooooooo religious, why is it customary for their children to walk around armed?

its not

That is why these arabs have been at ar with eachother since the dawn of time

youre basically saying all arabs are at war. not true. talk to some middle eastern people living in the states that grew up there. ask them how it is in the countries they came from. not "all arabs" want war. its only the religious zealots. thats like saying all white people are bigots because of the kkk. you cant just label a body of people for what a group of people do.

Since when did college type prank bullshit,...like "taking pictures of nude POW men" ever have been cause to sentence a man to a "serious" prison term, and/ or have taken his livelyhood away?

since WWII. some japanese soldiers sexually humiliated alot of the asian prisoners. there were trials (i forget what they called them) of japanese soldiers who were found innocent of rape, murder, etc but guilty for how the sexually mistreated men and women who they captured

 

[Code]

You're comparing Nanking to Abu Ghraib????!!

Sweet Moses Malone you're an idiot!!!!!!

since WWII. some japanese soldiers sexually humiliated alot of the asian prisoners. there were trials (i forget what they called them) of japanese soldiers who were found innocent of rape, murder, etc but guilty for how the sexually mistreated men and women who they captured

 

[Nubly]

re-read it code. c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y

 

[rrrr]

I cant beleive we're still talking about this. There should not be an argument on this subject. Your either with us or against us. ITS WAR PEOPLE!!!! This is rediculous.

 

[ChefWide]

I cant beleive we're still talking about this. There should not be an argument on this subject. Your either with us or against us. ITS WAR PEOPLE!!!! This is rediculous.

<cough>horseshit</cough>

 

[bluepeter]

I cant beleive we're still talking about this. There should not be an argument on this subject. Your either with us or against us. ITS WAR PEOPLE!!!! This is rediculous.

Are you George 'The Hammer' Bush?

 

[manny78]

since WWII. some japanese soldiers sexually humiliated alot of the asian prisoners. there were trials (i forget what they called them) of japanese soldiers who were found innocent of rape, murder, etc but guilty for how the sexually mistreated men and women who they captured

Dude I hope you're joking cause comparing Nanking to what happened to these Iraqis is dumb. How can you compare hundreds of chinese spayed with kerosene and burned alive to some poor bastard assfucked with a glowstick ? Get real...

 

[from zero]

I cant beleive we're still talking about this. There should not be an argument on this subject. Your either with us or against us. ITS WAR PEOPLE!!!! This is rediculous.

Yes. A war started illegally.

Calm yourself, Mr. President.

 

[Nubly]

you guys act like china was the only country invaded by the japanese. korea. when i gget home i'll look up info on that one camp in the northern part of korea

 

[Nubly]

but i'll try to go off memory. there were some allied POWs and korean priosoners that were displayed nude in a zoo, for japanese citizens. the people responsible for this were tried as war criminals- even though they were not in any combat

 

[rrrr]

Wait, I think all of you are getting me all wrong. Do I agree with the war(Iraq)? No, I dont. I dxo agree with going into afgan. and getting that bastard Osama. I hate Bush! But the fact that people are happy that our soilder is going to jail for this is rediculous. The fact is we are at war, whether you support it or against it is your opinion, and thats fine. However we are in war, its a fact, many of our kids our dieing everyday out there. I think the least we can do is support them, not jail them. If they beheaded or tortured the POW than I could see people saying he deserves it, but not for the petty things they did to them.

I just reread what i posted before and now I see that I did sound like Bush. Either your with us or against us............lol

 

[bodytemple75]

Nubly,...


You "mentioned" you may have served in the US military? I am curious, as to why you left, or may not be involved still....Your thoughts on this thread have peaked my curiosity at this question... A little rundown will suffice.


Thanks...



respectfully

BT


and....I still do not agree with you one bit, but respect your right to your own opinion and listen.


BYW...

Most Arab boys carry firearms or weapons as part of daily life on their persons. It is the "norm," in the middle east. Proir to 911 or any this war. This is factual. You were still wrong there,....If you don't believe me,...read up on it.

 

[Nubly]

i was in the army for three years- washington and korea. i left because my three year contract was up. i didnt like the pay so i didnt renew my contract

 

[Code]

Whoa whoa, congress voted on it, how is it illegal now??

Yes. A war started illegally.

Calm yourself, Mr. President.

 

[bluepeter]

Whoa whoa, congress voted on it, how is it illegal now??

immoral perhaps but true, not illegal in the strictest sense

 

[from zero]

International laws, orbs.

But, http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm
and http://electronicIraq.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/337
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/uswarcrimes/uswarcrimesiraq/iraqinvasion.html

 

[Code]

Eh, who gives a shit about international laws.

It was legal in the US, and since we happen to have the most guns in Iraq, it's legal there too!

International laws, orbs.

But, http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm
and http://electronicIraq.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/6/337
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/uswarcrimes/uswarcrimesiraq/iraqinvasion.html

 

[from zero]

lol

 

[Spartacus]

Ignorance is no excuse.

This is all the media's fault. And the douche that leaked the photos out to begin with. And the douche that thought taking the photos was a hot idea. Moron.

Haven't read past this thread,so this may have been covered. But to me taking the photos was part of the humiliation. Let em know you are photographing them,but then destroy the photos w/o their knowledge. And for the record this "mistreatment" is tame compared to what has been done in the past.

 

[buddy28]

Now the current debate in DC is whether or not those soldiers were POWs or if they fell into Bush's terrorist category.

So if the Secretary of Defense isn't sure if they are POWs or terrorists, how do you expect a grunt making 1100 a month (before taxes) to know?

Rumsfeld himself admitted Iraqi detainees were designated as POWS protected under Genova Conventions:

"... LIEBERMAN: Are these detainees, do you assume, members of Al Qaida -- that is, the thousands that have been held in Iraq? Or are they in another status?

RUMSFELD: Oh no, the president announced from the outset that everyone in Iraq who was a military person and was detained is a prisoner of war, and therefore the Geneva Conventions apply.

And second, the decision was made that the civilians or criminal elements that are detainees are also treated subject to the Geneva Convention, although it's a different element of it. I think it's the 4th instead of the 3rd.

LIEBERMAN: I appreciate the clarification, because I was not aware of that; that you would say that all those held in prison, including those who were abused here, had the rights of prisoners of war...

RUMSFELD: Absolutely.

LIEBERMAN: ... under the Geneva Convention.

RUMSFELD: Absolutely. That's true... "


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8575-2004May7_3.html

 

[Spartacus]

US ARMY SLAUGHTERED GERMAN POWS

The German armed forces invariably obeyed the Rules of War conventions to the letter. Speaking for himself and other allied military commanders, Major General Robert W. Grow, U.S.A. Commander 6th Armored Division in Europe conceded there was ‘no German atrocity problem’.

"My service during World War Two was in command of an armored division throughout the European campaign, from Normandy to Saxony. My division lost quite a number of officers and men captured between July 1944 and April 1945. In no instance did I hear of personnel from our division receiving treatment other than proper under the 'Rules of Land Warfare'. As far as the 6th Armored Division was concerned in its 280 days of front line contact, there was no 'atrocity problem'. Frankly, I was aghast, as were many of my contemporaries, when we learned of the proposed 'war crimes' trials and the fact that military commanders were among the accused. I know of no general officer who approved of them." (9)

Despite the German observance of convention the American forces response was often as summary and as brutal as those practiced by their Soviet allies. Only in cases where large numbers of captured soldiers had been taken were they to be enslaved. If captured in smaller groups the US Army policy was simply to slaughter their captured prisoners where they stood.

A specific study is now being made for the purpose of compiling evidence of such atrocities to which the author, Michael Walsh, would appreciate input.

One such case was the cold-blooded slaying of an estimated 700 troops of the 8th SS Mountain Division. These troops who had fought with honorable distinction had earlier captured a US field hospital. Although the German troops had conducted themselves properly they were, when subsequently captured by the US Army, routinely separated and gunned down in groups by squads of American troops.

there's more,do a search,basically eisenhower starved 1.7 million german POWs post-
http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/warcrimetrials.htm

 

[Nubly]

there's more,do a search,basically eisenhower starved 1.7 million german POWs post-
http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/warcrimetrials.htm

im goint to assume that this was not directed at me. as i said earlier, no human beings should be treated in this manner.

 

[The Shadow]

finally one of the soldiers who abused the prisoners at abu ghraib gets sentenced. he gets a year in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge. though i dont see what the pont of rank reduction is if he is going to be discharged

lets hope that the other soliers get it worse

...has to do with his pension I would imagine

 

[Code]

Yep, i read that. But it merely underlines the fact that, *at that time* (after the fact) there was still questions about their status.

Rumsfeld himself admitted Iraqi detainees were designated as POWS protected under Genova Conventions:

"... LIEBERMAN: Are these detainees, do you assume, members of Al Qaida -- that is, the thousands that have been held in Iraq? Or are they in another status?

RUMSFELD: Oh no, the president announced from the outset that everyone in Iraq who was a military person and was detained is a prisoner of war, and therefore the Geneva Conventions apply.

And second, the decision was made that the civilians or criminal elements that are detainees are also treated subject to the Geneva Convention, although it's a different element of it. I think it's the 4th instead of the 3rd.

LIEBERMAN: I appreciate the clarification, because I was not aware of that; that you would say that all those held in prison, including those who were abused here, had the rights of prisoners of war...

RUMSFELD: Absolutely.

LIEBERMAN: ... under the Geneva Convention.

RUMSFELD: Absolutely. That's true... "


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8575-2004May7_3.html

 

[buddy28]

But it merely underlines the fact that, *at that time* (after the fact) there was still questions about their status.

Questions from congressional leaders who were uninformed. But not from Rummy who knew from the start.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

I heard he got a grant form the National Endowment for the Arts to continue his intriguing photography once he is released.

 

[Spartacus]

im goint to assume that this was not directed at me. as i said earlier, no human beings should be treated in this manner.

not at all,just wanted to point out that POW treatment both by and against the US has been far worse than this pansy shit..I mean I wouldn't want an unlubricated broom handle jammed up my ass,but if the other option is to perish entriely..I could stand a little discomfort and being photographed naked..wouldn't want to be forced into a naked scrum with my confederates either,but still this is pansy shit

 

[Spartacus]

I mean hell,there are fraternity hazings worse than this...remember that girl high school sorority that was hazing with shit and beatings?..this is an international incident?

 

[bodytemple75]

It is so rediculious that our counrty has put so much "time and focus" on this incodent. These "pranks" or "mistreatments"...as I had stated before , (and even "4ever" confirmed) some, were as "compared" to college prank type bullshit. Upsetting to see the waste of US time, resources, and manpower going into this nonsense. Yes,...it is nonsense.

 

[Spartacus]

Yeah,..." A real fucking triumph." This is a very sad, and disturbing day in American history. Now we are jailing our own soldiers for the equilivant of College Frat Prank type of shit. During wartime no less. Maybe in the next war we could have suites for the prisoners at the Waldorf Austoria, and have them brought up Champagne and fruit. Just make it real cozy. I'm sure they would have for the U.S. boys. Gimme' a fucking break, now....!! This is bullshit, everyone with half a brain can see. The Americans involved should not have been jailed or taken down in rank. If anything, they should have been told now they should adhere to a strict policy of how to handle foreign POW's. This is fucking war. The US boys are being hung by the press for "humiliating" some Iraquis, but some foreigner, can cut off a POW American soldier's head off with a blunt knife, and proceed to rip the rest off, all the while the poor kid is alive? And, he is a damn civilian at that?....Wow,....something is "SERIOUSLY" wrong with shit in the United States, right now then,...I agree. Our main focus here today, is soooooo disgustingly sympathetic to Iraqui, and every move the U.S. government and armies of their own make are "hawked" by their own people and media. I myself, do not agree with the war. We should have went in there, took what we wanted, dropped a few bombs if need being, and left. Problem solved, let them clean up their own mess. It is not the "responsibility" of the American peoples, and "thier hard earned tax-paying dollars"to clean up and solve the rest of the world's economies, and their problems! Especially when they don't appreciate it. The other countries had half a brain, and left themselves out. They knew these people were "self destructive nutbags"...completely unsavable. What's new though...?! Old news now. The United States should really go after our own media. They have propelled, and contributed to having such rediculious stories to the point where it is disgraceful. (Perfect example of media bullshit....rent the movie "Return To Paridise.")These people should be facing jailtime, or a heavy, heavy fine. It is getting so gad damn bad in this country, it is almost like you have to have a team of lawyers with you at all times, just to make sure you are doing or saying the "POLITICALLY CORRECT" thing nowadays! Rediculious.

with regards to your comments about the media,another guy on a baord I frequent mentioned this:
It's because the far left socialist wing of the Vietnam era I hate America crowd have reared their ugly heads again. Much to the gratification of World terrorisim. The left cant stand by and watch America be a victorious in a war on terror. They must subvert, obscure and lie to do this and their greatest allies in this effort are many of the world news organisations.

If you are old enough you will recall how the reporting durring the Vietnam era was to say the least one sided. A few good examples follow.

Durring the Tet offensive the reports came out at the beginning of that offensive of how massive the forces were that the Americans were faceing, the Americans were going to face the same kind of defeat as the French.

This did not happen. The Tet offensive was a TOTAL military disaster for the North Vietnamese and particularly for the Vietcong. They had lost all ability to wage any kind of offensive or even gorilla campain in the south for over 6 months. As amatter of fact after the war Gen. Giap stated that after Tet the north had to ask fo volenteers to go to the South and try to reconstitute the Vietcong gorilla movement. Most of the VC after Tet were in actuallity NVA. This remaned true untill the end of the war.

But what was reported? When the shooting stopped the news agencys reported about how the nasty cheeting Americans pulled out all the stops and SLAUTERED the poor Vietnamese. Why when the US Embassy in Siagon was over run by VC gorillas and they went in killing not only US MP's and Marine guards but the civillian staff as well, the press wanted to know why we took no prisoners.

We saw the famous footage of a Arvin officer shooting a captured VC in the head, But not the report of how this officers family was targeted and killed by a groop of VC including the one in the footage saw around the world.

There were reports of massive civilian casualties, It had to be the fault of the US. No it was a systematic murder plot by the NVA and the VC to kill anyone that was even suspected of being associated with the United States. For some reason that also included Vietnamese Catholics that were killed by the thousands and left in piles in the jungles of South Vietnam.
Did the news agencies report this? Yes, in a very shot blerb, then it was bash America time again. Some agencies even tried to blame the US for these slauters.

Sound familiar? What are they reporting in Iraq? How the electricity is back on? How many schools are up and running? Hospitals functioning? NO, The Americans blew up a wedding party including women and children. How the evil Americans put panties on a prisoners head. If you want to read anything possitive you have to dig deep, really deep.

This was the leftist strategy in Vietnam also. Tet was a great American military victory but the press saw to it that it became our greatest political defeat. The cry went out from the left "We can't sustain these casualties, pull out , pull out." Organised demonstrations that we now know for the most part were organised and paid for by Communist organisation. And there was the press to report it all. This became the beginning of the end of American involvement in Vietnam.

The peaceniks in this Country finnaly got what they wanted, a Communist Socialist Utopia in Vietnam. And everything was good. Was'nt it?

When Vietnam fell millions were displaced. No one knows how many South Vietnamese were executed AFTER the war. The press did not want to report anything bad about their former friends. What about hte million or so sent to "Re-education Camps". Do you think for a minute that they all "graduated"? Then came the slaughter in Cambodia under another Socialist hero, Pol Pot. Millions more dead, millions more displaced a whole nation raped and gutted.

And the left was happy.

The US media in large part is hoping for the same thing to happen in Iraq. The recent reporting has become more of a politiacal foot ball rather tha a reporting of facts. The prisoner abuse issue comes to mind. The US Military much to its credit had investigations well under way before this story ever broke. The first offender has already been prosecuted and more are soon to follow. Report the individual courtmartials? Yes, for sure, no problem. Keep showing the photos every day of the week? This is meant for one thing, to make all American Soldiers look like animals. And then there's the political agenda. Isnt it nice how the two go together?

The press says that functioning schools, hospitals and improvements in infrastructure in Iraq just arn't news worthy. These are non stories. I understand this from their point of view, it might make America look good. And as we all know, a good America just isn't NEWS WORTHY.

_____________________________

KED "