Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below What's wrong with making sure a third grader can read?
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Social Promotion
- Thread starter velvett
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HumorMe
New member
velvett said:
My wife is a school teacher and she has to confront this every year. While she does not agree with social promotions, it is usually the principal or higher ups that tend to do this.
There are some kids at every school around that need to be "gotten rid of" and the easiest route to take is to promote them out of the school and eventually out of the system.
She has students in the seventh grade that couldn't even tell you what 4 divided by 2 is. It is not that they are dumb but rather they do not give a shit about school. Some kids do not have the love and support of a good home environment and therefore get in with the wrong crowd and usually wind up in some kind of legal trouble or getting expelled from school.
After watching my wife teach kids (early teenagers) for the last 21 years, I can honestly say that in certain circumstances, social promotion is warranted and usually the only answer. A majority of these kids will either quit school when they reach 16 (I believe that is the legal age in my state) or get into trouble somewhere.
While it is the higher ups or administrators that usually do this, it will always seem to come home to roost squarely on the teachers which is sad. A teacher can only do so much to motivate these kids.
I don't approve of the concept but I can see both sides of the argument.
I agree that kids should have to to do the work to pass, but school administrators are more concerned with how the statistics look, instead of doing the job they are suppose to do. I will give you an example. Recently at the high school I went to, the principle was moving kids that he thought couldn't pass the exit exam into a program where they receive some type of certificate of achievement instead a diploma. That way they don't count in the percentage of who passed or failed the exit exam. The sad part is that a lot of the parents gave in and let him move their kids. The kids finish high school without be given the chance to learn. Not because they can't, but because they might hurt some administrator's record.
Bulldog_10
New member
I think holding a kid back is terrible under most circumstances. The negative effects of being held back far outweigh the positives IMHO. Eventually, pretty much everyone will learn to read and do basic math...holding a kid back won't do them any good. It will just fuck up their social lives. Of course, if it's used as a kick in the ass for the parents, when the kid is still young...then it's ok. But holding a kid back after like 4th-5th grade is bad in my opinion.
Why wait until after the school year is over to conclude that a child is behind?
Why can't each child be watched throughout the year and if they should fall behind they should be given additional help until they have caught up.
How does a kid make it into high school without knowing how to read?
Why can't each child be watched throughout the year and if they should fall behind they should be given additional help until they have caught up.
How does a kid make it into high school without knowing how to read?
Bulldog_10
New member
velvett said:
Exactly...if you can't teach a kid the skills you want to get across to him in a year...what good will another year do?
HumorMe
New member
velvett said:
It's all about the Benjamins. School system would have to hire several people to do all of that research and record keeping and testing and retesting, paperwork, etc.
Plus, if they had to pay out more money then the administrators couldn't take their quarterly or semi-annual trips to some resort to discuss the more important things that are pressing. I am saying that in a serious manner. Our school system does that and it has never made sense to me.
Some make it out of high school and can't read.
Bulldog_10 said:
They would not have to be held back if their progress was watched better.
My gal pal is dyslectic and no one took note until her sophomore year of college. She's a smart girl and fortunately she's in technical/math related field but her reading comprehension is very poor and holds her back in her adult life.
She went to the same school by me that is notorious for letting 8th graders graduate without yet knowing how to read.
HumorMe said:
Why do they have to hire additional people?
Can't the teacher of a class tell whether or not their students are learning there lessons?
Don't they make kids read out loud anymore?
Don't they give tests anymore? Forget homework. Let the kid read out loud, have them do an oral presentations, have them do math problems on the black board.
At this rate you might as well lock the kids in a room and hand them books and just see what happens?
What do teacher do all day if they are not teaching the children in their class?
Why does everyone blame the administrators?
Are they in the classroom watching and teaching the kids?
Bulldog_10
New member
velvett said:
Good point. But that doesn't seem to stop people.
Plus, if someone is smart enough to be a good teacher, shouldn't they be smart enough to not take a job as a teacher? Especially in the inner city.
Testosterone boy
New member
Getin held bak bunc of tims didnt hert me ani.
HumorMe
New member
velvett said:
1. Additional personell would have to be hired to track the progress of each child in the school system. The kids who are not progressing or not learning would have to be tested by qualified specialists who are trained to recognize such things as Dyslexia, ADD, Hyperactivity, etc.
2. Teachers can tell which kids are getting it and what kids are not. They can make recommendations to guidance counselors or other administrators and then the ball lies in their court.
3. Her school offers free tutoring before classes begin to whoever needs it or wants it. My wife is at school every morning at 7:00 am for that purpose. A teacher can not demand a student to attend these classes but they are available for them.
4. I'm sure they probably do all of that but still you can not force a child to participate if they are not willing. Punishment will only work for a short period of time then after that the child knows what they can and can not get away with. They have what they call "In School Suspension" where basically the student sits in a classroom with other offenders and does his schoolwork. At home suspensions no longer count as "zeros" for each day they are absent from the classroom. When I was in school, you got a big fat zero each day you were suspended and we never heard of "In School Suspensions".
5. Locking the kids in a classroom would be nothing but a huge clusterfuck and impractical.
6. When teachers are not teaching (every teacher has a planning period) they are working in their rooms on District paperwork, grading papers (they do that at home too), future lesson plans (an every day requirement by the district)(teachers have to turn in lesson plans everyday or each week for the week.), Running off tests on the copier, preparing for the rest of their classes, etc. Sometimes they are asked to keep a class for another teacher that might have a conflict such as dr. appointment, etc.
7. Teachers are blamed more than administrators because they are the low man on the totem pole. Administrators should be blamed more because they are famous for "cooking the books" to make them look better than they really are. My wife's principal got busted a month ago for doing this. She claimed that discipline wasn't a problem at their school until the chief of police showed up with a stack of reports filed by that school's resource officer. She had egg on her face and she is being replaced next year due to many other things.
Teachers always get a raw deal. School ain't what it used to be. Before anyone starts complaining about teachers and what they are doing, spend a couple of days in the classroom with them and I am sure a lot of your questions will be answered without even asking them.
The American public school system seems to be turning into a giant daycare into which too many will only graduate straight onto welfare. Everyone is afraid of damaging that oh-so-delicate self-esteem children seem to have nowadays, so expectations are low. Truth is, low expectations LEAD to low performance. Dumbing-down everything to the lowest common denominator doesn't HELP anyone; it DOES hurt those who are eager to learn and succeed.
Robert Jan
New member
FitFossil said:
I agree
Bloomberg is the man for doing this in NYC and for picking up where Rudy left off to take control of the school board.
As to the topic, the idea of universal education is a socialist proposition that continues to weaken the country by limiting the resources available to the students that can actually use them.
Hiring more people, teachers, admins, whoever, always always always benefits only whatever teacher union is in place. Some other groups may benefit, they may not, but the unions ALWAYS do.
The problem is not in social promotion, but in the idea that everyone should have a taxpayer funded education.
All the tenets of socialism apply here, from collective funding to uionization to heavy handed top-dwn administration with no room for deviation and new ideas.
Like every other socialist construct, the education system has failed. Everyone who can afford private school goes to it. Why do you think that is?
As to the topic, the idea of universal education is a socialist proposition that continues to weaken the country by limiting the resources available to the students that can actually use them.
Hiring more people, teachers, admins, whoever, always always always benefits only whatever teacher union is in place. Some other groups may benefit, they may not, but the unions ALWAYS do.
The problem is not in social promotion, but in the idea that everyone should have a taxpayer funded education.
All the tenets of socialism apply here, from collective funding to uionization to heavy handed top-dwn administration with no room for deviation and new ideas.
Like every other socialist construct, the education system has failed. Everyone who can afford private school goes to it. Why do you think that is?
HumorMe said:
Can't each teacher track their own students? Is this too timely? I understand that that when a child has a learning disability other people need to be involved but if no one is willing to set up and find out if the child has a problem other than needing extra time to learn certain things how can anything improve?
HumorMe said:
Ok, let’s say I’m a third grade teacher and I have three students that are not as advanced as the other students with their reading abilities why is it not my responsibility to bring them up to the other children? Why does the recommendation have to go to an outside party? Shouldn’t the teacher try and help the child first? (I’m repeating myself now.)
HumorMe said:
Is tutoring mandatory for children that are behind and if not why is it not mandatory? It was mandatory when we were kids. If we fell behind in school we had to spend recess indoors studying with the teacher. If after that we still fell behind you would be subject to repeat the year. (Sometimes kids need a little motivation and embarrassment of being left behind, to be viewed publicly as stupid is a great motivator for a lot of kids)
HumorMe said:
Can’t force a child to participate? What is this school time play time, a resort, free babysitting for mommy and daddy? Fine, they don’t want to participate let them stay in the same grade until they’re ready to get with the program.
I don’t understand what you mean by punishment. What do you have to do to get “in school punishment” – act out? Be an unruly student? Beat up another kid? Or need a little extra help to pass your classes? A child doesn’t have to be punished when they need extra help they need to be motivated and since they know they’ll make it to the next grade even if they have failed why bother trying to learn?
HumorMe said:
Agreed. I never said they should – but they need to be taught something, why can’t they be taught during their regular classroom hours. Or would that be too much to expect? Heaven forbid a child should learn something in class. And if there is not enough time in that class they should be required to attend the tutoring sessions, period.
HumorMe said:
I know quite a few teachers, a superintendent and 2 Principals and what I’ve learned from them is that no one wants to look bad. No one wants to rock the boat and show that they have a child or children in their school that didn’t learn or are not at the same level as the other kids so they ship them out as “challenged”. None of the administrators or teachers what to look bad or incompetent in their abilities, so the failing child is either removed or just hidden and pushed through until they graduate and become another districts problem.
To repeat my question – during a teachers teaching time in their classroom if they are not teaching their class (helping children learn) what are they doing? I did not mean what they are doing outside of their teaching hours during the school day.
HumorMe said:
Teachers are blamed because enough people don’t even know that there are administrators that have anything to do with teaching that could be held partially responsible. Of course the teacher is the scapegoat and unfortunately some of the time it’s rightfully so. There are some really great teachers out there and it’s a shame that the suddenly deficient tenured teachers and school politics of the school have to get in the way of learning.
HumorMe said:
I spent time in a local charter school in 2002/ 2003 helping with the art program as a form of therapy for children with slight to very serious learning disabilities. I’ve always wanted to teach because I remember the impact a few teachers have had on me in my life but I don’t have the qualifications to teach in a regular school. We had some kids come in from a public school a few towns west of us and these kids that were labeled as “challenged” were just regular kids that needed a little extra time, a little hand holding and a bit of patience. They were not anything more than kids that were so afraid of not being perfect that could start anything without some additional enthusiasm and support.
It’s not only the teachers that get the raw deal it’s he kids that could learn had they been given the time. It’s so easy to focus on the “bad kids” or the “lazy kids” and make it that they are a problem child, or that they have some sort of disorder – it’s almost fashionable to have a kid with a disorder and a script sheet long than their first reading book.
The only why any of this could possibly change is for parent to take a bit more interest in their children’s studies and for all the people employed by the school to stop pointing fingers as to who really is to blame because they all are have a piece of this failure.
velvett said:
I would like to thank both you and HumorMe for demonstrating the impossibility of a successful program of universal public education.
lucidBlue said:
This disagreement between you and Buldog_10 is still more proof why universal public education is not workable and should be ended.
Woo hoo!
lucidBlue said:
This is true. My sister is a teacher in NYC and she has been told to use colors "other than red".
She uses purple.
sh4dowf4lcon
New member
velvett said:
I agree. I amnot bragging, well, yes I am; my 4 year old does hooked on phonics and reads small books to us. He goes to pre school 2 days a week for6 hours and he is very smart. The thing is, we encourage him and spend time with him and work with him. Never pushing him, but enabling him to learn. It is very rewarding to watch children learn, and I feel they must be given a good environment to nourish their desire to read. I vote for less TV and more family time for starters.
Good Post Velvett
lucidblue
New member
Sh4dowF4lcon said:I agree. I amnot bragging, well, yes I am; my 4 year old does hooked on phonics and reads small books to us. He goes to pre school 2 days a week for6 hours and he is very smart. The thing is, we encourage him and spend time with him and work with him. Never pushing him, but enabling him to learn. It is very rewarding to watch children learn, and I feel they must be given a good environment to nourish their desire to read. I vote for less TV and more family time for starters.
Good Post Velvett
Another good point. Parents need to spend time teaching their children and encouraging them to learn.
lucidBlue said:
Duh.
Removal of the leviathan we call public education will spur this.
T
The Shadow
Guest
velvett said:
Here in Ga, retention is a great big "ideal".
Any 3rd grader that cant read is "supposed" to be held back......
Wont everr happen though because approximately 1/3 will not read on grade level.....thereby GREATLY increasing class size and necessitating the hiring of new teahers, portable classromms, etc.
It comes down to dollars...its too expension to implement the program
T
The Shadow
Guest
velvett said:
Because in most states you can only hold a child back for one year.....
The Shadow said:
HAHAHAHA
Still no one is being held responsible for the lack of appropriate teaching.
Why can't these kids learn within in the school year?
Too many in a class?
No wait - they're all learning disabled.
Disruptive?
Short attention span?
Or maybe a few people are not able to do their jobs effficently?
atlantabiolab
New member
velvett said:
It is multifactorial, it is not "one thing". Parents are not preparing their children and assisting the schools as they did in the past. Public education is a major beauracracy, is riddled with numerous failings and actually protects poor teachers. Kids cannot be disciplined anymore by teachers, and parents refuse to do it; so a number of schools are nothing more than small prisons, with the teachers as guards.
Nope, this is a scapegoat that the US teaching industry created. Japan has very large classes in grade school and they have well educated children.
A number do, but this is related to parenting; something that teachers have no control over.
Yep, and the unionized system of public schools protects these idiots.
lucidBlue said:
ding ding ding we have a winner.
Unions prevent discipline and removal of ineffective teachers. NY city has approximately 72000 teachers. Last year they removed THREE for incompetence.
Teacher unions have created a process whereby removal is extremely difficult, and why? Because removing a teacher decreases union dues received.
Unions often complain that "we can't objectively evaluate a teacher's performance" and cite that impossibility as the reason why they cannot fire bad teachers easily.
Ironically, these are the same people charged with evaluating students.
T
The Shadow
Guest
velvett said:
its a failure at the state level.
Not every child is capable(mentally) of reading on level...those are simple genetic distributions. SO...tghose kids are passed along thru the system in order to evade the money issue I stated befoire
HumorMe
New member
After reading all of the responses on this thread, I don't think I could add anything that hasn't already been discussed.
Velvett, I feel the same way you do over ineffective teachers and why can't they teach little Johnny to read and write. It's too broad of a subject to give a reason why.
We can sit here and point our fingers all day long and never accomplish anything. Too many variables are in play but Johnny still can't read.
The most interesting post on this thread is the one about not grading tests in red ink. It is the same way here about that. Also, and this is a pet peeve of mine, is that when I was in school and you played a game with the class, you always had winners and losers. Not anymore! Everybody is a winner even if you lost. Political correctness and the liberal agenda can take the credit for things like that.
The only solution I see, and Matt is correct, is to take schooling private and pay for an education. While that is a luxury for the rich, poor Johnny still can not read and winds up being left behind but promoted until he is a nonfunctioning member of society.
It sucks bigtime!
Velvett, I feel the same way you do over ineffective teachers and why can't they teach little Johnny to read and write. It's too broad of a subject to give a reason why.
We can sit here and point our fingers all day long and never accomplish anything. Too many variables are in play but Johnny still can't read.
The most interesting post on this thread is the one about not grading tests in red ink. It is the same way here about that. Also, and this is a pet peeve of mine, is that when I was in school and you played a game with the class, you always had winners and losers. Not anymore! Everybody is a winner even if you lost. Political correctness and the liberal agenda can take the credit for things like that.
The only solution I see, and Matt is correct, is to take schooling private and pay for an education. While that is a luxury for the rich, poor Johnny still can not read and winds up being left behind but promoted until he is a nonfunctioning member of society.
It sucks bigtime!
atlantabiolab
New member
velvett said:
Yes, but we haven't talked in so long
lucidblue
New member
HumorMe said:
Unfortunately, the politically correct nonsense happens in private schools too. My mom pulled my brothers and sisters out of private school for that reason. They were actually correcting in pencil, not even pen. This was a school I went to. When I was there the education was rigorous, grading extremely difficult and definitely always winners and losers. I learned so much there and it challenged me to always want to do better (and I did). Unfortunately, that went out the window. My parents decided that didn't want to pay extremely high tuition fees to not have their kids learn properly.
HumorMe
New member
lucidBlue said:
We had ours in private school until the fourth grade and then decided to send them to public schools because we live in the best school zone around here plus we were paying almost $30,000 a year in tuition and fees. While I like the school they are in now, I still have some issues with them.
I went to school in SC, where the word union is reason enough to get you fired. The worst teachers I had were the ones who had been in the system long enough to know how to play the game. They knew what the principle wanted and that is what they did. They were not protected by a union, they just did what the administrators wanted and they got rewarded. The younger teachers who made students think were there for 2-3 years if you were lucky. They would buck the system for a couple quarters, grading the students on the work they did, and then they would get called into the office when a parent wanted to know why their child didn't get his usual grade. Then you would see a couple who tried to fight, but most just moved on. 
One of the worst ideas that has come up is the idea of grading schools on standardized testing. Now the teachers spend at least half their time prepping their students for these tests, instead of teaching them. These tests don't do anything for the education of the students.
One of the worst ideas that has come up is the idea of grading schools on standardized testing. Now the teachers spend at least half their time prepping their students for these tests, instead of teaching them. These tests don't do anything for the education of the students.
lucidBlue said:
You actually illustrate the beauty of a private system here.
Your mom was unhappy, so she pulled her children out of the school, and went on to find something more to her liking. At that point, she stopped having to pay tuition to the provate school.
If you are unhappy wht ublic schools, you have no recourse, and you do not get to stop paying prpoerty taxes.
Your example demonstartes that even when it is poorly run, a private system is superior: choice.
sh4dowf4lcon
New member
Dial_tone said:
This may be true, I know a little about football crazed towns, but I still blame the parents for ignorant moves like that.
IMO this definately boils down to the home environment the kids are raised in.
Too much playstation and not enough discipline.
SF
Sh4dowF4lcon said:
This is the typical bullshit SF.
When kids fuck up, teachers immedialtey blame parents or some external nonsense.
Schools are failing, close down public education, lower my taxes, let me educate my own kids myself.
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