Sleep and muscle growth

[Techbaseball]

I've had this question for quite sometime now.... but never can get an answer backed with some kind of research.

Okay... your body changes while asleep. Therefore sleep is critical to muscle growth. My question is this.... what stage of sleep do you need to be in? For instance... there are times where I'm kind of of half asleep.. but not in a deep sleep. Other times (mostly during naps) I can't really fall asleep... but im in a relaxed state where my mind kind of wonders. And of course there are nights where stress or anxiety or whatever gets the best of you... and you can't fall asleep at all.

Kind of a long question... but how "asleep" do you need to be for your body to recover and build muscle? Is just lying down and resting your body effective? Do you have to be in a deep sleep to build muscle?

thanks,

--Techbaseball

P.S. I prefer this forum... if that's not okay... just add a "while on steriods" to the end of each sentence above.

 

[golferstud84]

You body recovers the most in the REM stage of sleep.... The stage where dreams occure and your body is completely out ... try and get better sleep bro

 

[Techbaseball]

You body recovers the most in the REM stage of sleep.... The stage where dreams occure and your body is completely out ... try and get better sleep bro

I hear ya... makes sense. But can your body recover at all while NOT in deep sleep? It seems... if you are relaxed and lying down... that your body is resting. Your mind may not be... but your body is.

--Techbaseball

 

[steelmass]

Bump - like to know.

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

Sleep does the body good.. 10hours/day for me..

 

[smaretick]

The short answer is that sleep does several important things for your body (e.g., sleep appears necessary for our nervous systems to work properly; too little sleep leads to impaired memory and physical performance; deep sleep coincides with the release of growth hormone in children and young adults; many of the body's cells also show increased production and reduced breakdown of proteins during deep sleep).
So, the bottom line is that sleep is important for daily functioning and growth.

 

[cboogsrun]

They say during rem sleep your body secretes more GH and LH. Not sure about all the biology part of it, but rem sleep is important for recovery. Thats why there seems to be a cult of people who take sleeping pills. Not me, I'd get addicted. LOl

BOOGS

 

[210toosmall]

my q would be would a sleep aid affect your recovery while sleeping.

 

[kmoe42]

i hear also that ur not suppose to eat 2 hrs before u go to sleep because if u do ur heart has to pump to digest it and if u wait stop 2 hrsa before then the next day ur suppose to be more energetic and stuff.. just wut i heard

 

[LT3]

my q would be would a sleep aid affect your recovery while sleeping.

i dont think so, because many people used GHB for sleep and for recovery. so i wouldnt think it affects it. because the reason for sleep aids are to force u to sleep, and the reason for that is so u can get rest. if sleeping aids impaired recovery, than they're pretty much useless.

to the OP, i would think that it depends on what you did during the day to determine what kind of sleep is sufficient in the night. for example, if u went to work (physical labour), then came home and then went to the gym, then had to do someother activities thats require more energy. then i think you need some 'good ol' deep sleep, to recover from ure daily activities. but if u did nothing all day, except sit on ure ass and watched tv, then how many muscle tissues would u need to recover? not too many, lol. either way though, i try to get 8 hours every night and take naps here and there, just to be on the safe side. i notice when i nap for 1-2 hours then hit the gym, my performance is improved and my pumps are insane.

 

[markshark]

I hear ya... makes sense. But can your body recover at all while NOT in deep sleep? It seems... if you are relaxed and lying down... that your body is resting. Your mind may not be... but your body is.

--Techbaseball

i have the same problems. deep sleep releases growth hormone. i think theres a 4 hour period there where growth hormone is released and i think its in either level 3 or 4 sleep. plus less sleep = more cortisol which can really fuck gains up. thats why i wish i had some ghb....fuck puts u right into deep sleep...shit u only need 4-5 hours max on that shit.

 

[markshark]

They say during rem sleep your body secretes more GH and LH. Not sure about all the biology part of it, but rem sleep is important for recovery. Thats why there seems to be a cult of people who take sleeping pills. Not me, I'd get addicted. LOl

BOOGS

yea im a member of that cult bro.

 

[Vertigo]

I can't let this one go.

Normal sleep architecture involves several complex factors but I'll make an attempt to explain in laymans terms. First, you can't choose how you progress throughout the sleep phase. The norm is a progression from sleep onset (3rd epoch of stage 1 or 1st epoch of stage 2) along a continuim thru stage 2 into stage 3, then 4 (stage 3 & 4=Delta). This progression usually takes approximately 90 minutes, followed by a change to REM, and finally a short arousal. This pattern is repeated throughout the night in 90 minutes intervals with increasing REM period durations. The final REM period being the longest and lasting 30-60 minutes. Architecture can be altered by many factors, including pyschological stress, medications, alcohol, pain, etc. To clarify REM vs non-REM sleep. REM sleep is recognized by R&K parameters as low ampitude mixed frequency EEG with atonia and skeletal muscle paralysis. Non-REM sleep is a mixture of EEG activity, including slow rolling eye movements and deceleration of frequency in the occipital lobes during stage 1, K complexes and spindles in stage 2, and high amplitude slow frequency waves in Delta. During the sleep process many biochemical changes take place most of which are to complicated to describe in this venue.

My suggestion to anyone wanting to optimize the regulation of nocturnal hormonal production and healthy sleep is to stay on schedule. First and foremost, stay away from sleep aids, OTC or prescription. Go to bed at the same time every night, sleep the same hours every night, and get up at the same time. On awakening, immediately expose yourself to bright sunlight to decrease melatonin levels.

 

[schneiderc2004]

We all know that sleep is imprtant for recovery and grow. If stress gets to you, try some relaxation techniques (deep breathing), and relaxing herbs prior to going to bed (sleepytime, or chamomile tea). Deep sleep is where most recovery and growth occurs. If you nap and can't get a deep sleep, I wouldn't worry too much, at least you are resting your body, and you'll feel the difference.

 

[paridhm]

You body recovers the most in the REM stage of sleep.... The stage where dreams occure and your body is completely out ... try and get better sleep bro

I thought you gained the most during the Delta Sleep phase.

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

i dont think so, because many people used GHB for sleep and for recovery. so i wouldnt think it affects it. because the reason for sleep aids are to force u to sleep, and the reason for that is so u can get rest. if sleeping aids impaired recovery, than they're pretty much useless.

to the OP, i would think that it depends on what you did during the day to determine what kind of sleep is sufficient in the night. for example, if u went to work (physical labour), then came home and then went to the gym, then had to do someother activities thats require more energy. then i think you need some 'good ol' deep sleep, to recover from ure daily activities. but if u did nothing all day, except sit on ure ass and watched tv, then how many muscle tissues would u need to recover? not too many, lol. either way though, i try to get 8 hours every night and take naps here and there, just to be on the safe side. i notice when i nap for 1-2 hours then hit the gym, my performance is improved and my pumps are insane.

GHB is used as a rec drug.. You cant honestly tell me that people are using it for sleep. Everyone that I knew that was using it, wasnt taking naps with it.. I thought the stuff was sh*t.. Had friends that overdosed, a few almost died, and one did.

 

[markshark]

GHB is used as a rec drug.. You cant honestly tell me that people are using it for sleep. Everyone that I knew that was using it, wasnt taking naps with it.. I thought the stuff was sh*t.. Had friends that overdosed, a few almost died, and one did.

most people dont use it for sleep because they are ravers and junkies but im sure there are plenty in the bbing community that do. shit if i could get my hands on it i would use it for sleep. im not a person that enjoys getting high but if its gonna help my gains then fuck i could care less if i die tomorrow.

 

[Vertigo]

The only time skeletal muscle is fully at rest is during REM associated atonia. The neural synapse to all muscle (except smooth muscle) is blocked biochemically to prevent locomotion. When this built-in safety mechanism malfunctions it can be described as a parasomnia. Sleep walking is one example, REM Behavior Disorder is another. The dreams that occur during REM sleep are propagated from the anterior surface of the medulla and can be alluded to as psychotic episodes. The brain has miraculously adapted to the phenomenon by paralyzing us to prevent acting out on the subjective reality of the dream. Although it is entirely possible, I've seen no conclusive evidence that muscle growth occurs more during one particular stage of sleep verses another. Also note that sleep is a continuim of a 24 hour cycle that still is not fully understood. Alteration of the normal patterns inherently given us by nature can only complicate things. In other terms, you're already taking AAS, don't fuck with your sleep too!

 

[LT3]

GHB is used as a rec drug.. You cant honestly tell me that people are using it for sleep. Everyone that I knew that was using it, wasnt taking naps with it.. I thought the stuff was sh*t.. Had friends that overdosed, a few almost died, and one did.

it used to be sold at nutrition stores bro as a sleep aid i believe. i personally wouldnt use it. i dont really see the benefit. but im pretty sure that apart from the ravers and whatnot, theres people that used it or still use it as a recovery method. cant say i;d agree with its use, but there are people that do it.

 

[Phys PhD]

The only time skeletal muscle is fully at rest is during REM associated atonia. The neural synapse to all muscle (except smooth muscle) is blocked biochemically to prevent locomotion. When this built-in safety mechanism malfunctions it can be described as a parasomnia. Sleep walking is one example, REM Behavior Disorder is another.

Blocked biochemically?! So, if someone wakes you up in this state you will be temporarily paralyzed?! I'll believe this one when you cite your source. Bottom line, "a significant portion of the total daily growth hormone (GH) secretion is associated with deep non-REM sleep (NREMS)" (Obal F Jr, Krueger JM, 2004). We all know GH is important in anabolism and catabolism of skeletal muscle...enough said.

 

[KD1]

You body recovers the most in the REM stage of sleep.... The stage where dreams occure and your body is completely out ... try and get better sleep bro

Ive heard different actually. That your body needs "Deep Sleep" which is the stage deeper than REM.

Also, kinda OT, but why do I get paralized sometimes in my sleep? Like I will hear a noise or something and I want to get out of bed but I cant move. But I can crack my eyes open. Only happens once a year or something but it sucks.

 

[markshark]

Ive heard different actually. That your body needs "Deep Sleep" which is the stage deeper than REM.

Also, kinda OT, but why do I get paralized sometimes in my sleep? Like I will hear a noise or something and I want to get out of bed but I cant move. But I can crack my eyes open. Only happens once a year or something but it sucks.

sleep paralysis. ive gotten it. ill be awake and dreaming at the same time, cant move or breathe, and have to kick a leg constantly to wake up.

 

[Vertigo]

Blocked biochemically?! So, if someone wakes you up in this state you will be temporarily paralyzed?! I'll believe this one when you cite your source. Bottom line, "a significant portion of the total daily growth hormone (GH) secretion is associated with deep non-REM sleep (NREMS)" (Obal F Jr, Krueger JM, 2004). We all know GH is important in anabolism and catabolism of skeletal muscle...enough said.

In simplistic terms yes, but not always. Sleep paralysis is not uncommon. Here is a link that will better explain the fundamentals of REM and atonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement Note that the process is chemical in nature. Neurotransmitters, monoamines are biochemically repsonsible for atonia. Antidepressants (SRI's) are notorius for changing serotonin and significantly decreasing or eliminating REM sleep.

Normal sleep is a Ying/Yang, you can't have Delta without REM and vice versa. BTW, I never referred to Growth Hormone since the use of AAS doesn't necessarily have any direct effect on GH levels but are more likely to act on protein systhesis in seketal muscle. Unfortunately I know of no know advisable methodolgy to increase Delta sleep in the mature adult. Nor would it probably be wise. Imagine the same methods used to keep AAS use in equilbrium, Supratestosterone administration requires AAI to prevent gyno, etc. The chemical mechanism involved in sleep is much more complex. But I'm just a juicer, what do I know......

 

[markshark]

In simplistic terms yes, but not always. Sleep paralysis is not uncommon. Here is a link that will better explain the fundamentals of REM and atonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement Note that the process is chemical in nature. Neurotransmitters, monoamines are biochemically repsonsible for atonia. Antidepressants (SRI's) are notorius for changing serotonin and significantly decreasing or eliminating REM sleep.

Normal sleep is a Ying/Yang, you can't have Delta without REM and vice versa. BTW, I never referred to Growth Hormone since the use of AAS doesn't necessarily have any direct effect on GH levels but are more likely to act on protein systhesis in seketal muscle. Unfortunately I know of no know advisable methodolgy to increase Delta sleep in the mature adult. Nor would it probably be wise. Imagine the same methods used to keep AAS use in equilbrium, Supratestosterone administration requires AAI to prevent gyno, etc. The chemical mechanism involved in sleep is much more complex. But I'm just a juicer, what do I know......

u seem to know a lot about this...would u say that the fact that cortisol build up from lack of sleep would be worse for the gains or just not getting deep enough sleep to release gh? i was just curious because ive heard of a drug called nubain that supposedly can block cortisol or reduce it greatly so if using something like that maybe lack of sleep wouldnt be quite AS bad...still not good.

 

[vitamix]

GHB is used as a rec drug.. You cant honestly tell me that people are using it for sleep. Everyone that I knew that was using it, wasnt taking naps with it.. I thought the stuff was sh*t.. Had friends that overdosed, a few almost died, and one did.

Google Xyrem

 

[Vertigo]

I don't feel that any interventional method to alter sleep is appropriate. I stated in an earlier post that the best method of sleep hygene is routine. Don't change your sleep pattern. Train you brain just like you train your body. Go to bed at the same time very night, get up at the same time every morning. Do it religiosly. Don't stay up on the weekend and party til friggen dawn. If you're doing a cycle and busting ass for 12 weeks, then optimize your potential by sleeping the best you can. Don't take a damn Valium or Xanax at bedtime cause you think you'll sleep better. You'll might get a little more Delta that night but the next night you may have REM rebound. Think of sleep as a bank account with portions spread out into checking, saving and escrow. You can move amounts around but not necessarily be able to use them to their full potential. If you deplete one you have to tap into another. But like I said, I'm just a evil steriod abuser, what do I know.....

 

[Techbaseball]

Great responses... thank you all. I don't have problems sleeping... just curious about what kind of sleep you need to build muscle. Plenty of answers now.

Here's another one for you sleep experts..... I typically wake up naturally after about 6 1/2 hours of sleep.... now.... do i get up... or do i lay in bed and try to get 8-10? I probably wont be able to hit REM again... but will just lay there relaxed.

--Techbaseball

 

[chestmaster1]

GHB is used as a rec drug.. You cant honestly tell me that people are using it for sleep. Everyone that I knew that was using it, wasnt taking naps with it.. I thought the stuff was sh*t.. Had friends that overdosed, a few almost died, and one did.

GHB is a safe drug, the only thing is that the dosing is very sensitive, usually 1 or 2 capfulls is all you need, and it is for that reason people who party with it try to push their limits and end up going to far. Also GHB mixed with a tiny bit of alcohol can be very dangerous, and it is for that reason that it has been used as a date rape drug

 

[GymIntensity]

GHB is used to "party" with, but also, it is used to build muscle. It used to be legal to buy, actually at a local gnc. Far as I know the Delta Stage 2 is the sleep where you gain most muscle and for a normal person it takes around 6 to 7 hours to get there, but while taking GHB before bed, you actually get to the delta stage within 1 or 2 hours therefore building mass amounts of muscle. Ive got a friend that tried some whenever it was still legal and gained 30lbs off of it. But to answer your question, 2 or 3 1 hour cat naps arent going to benefit you as much as a full 8 hours

 

[markshark]

GHB is used to "party" with, but also, it is used to build muscle. It used to be legal to buy, actually at a local gnc. Far as I know the Delta Stage 2 is the sleep where you gain most muscle and for a normal person it takes around 6 to 7 hours to get there, but while taking GHB before bed, you actually get to the delta stage within 1 or 2 hours therefore building mass amounts of muscle. Ive got a friend that tried some whenever it was still legal and gained 30lbs off of it. But to answer your question, 2 or 3 1 hour cat naps arent going to benefit you as much as a full 8 hours

yea i heard ghb was the shit. i tried gettin the doc to get me xyrem but he wouldnt let it fly. he barely gives me 30 lunesta a month....meanwhile i know people that get 120 klons and xanax's every month because they have "anxiety".

 

[rg78]

most people dont use it for sleep because they are ravers and junkies but im sure there are plenty in the bbing community that do. shit if i could get my hands on it i would use it for sleep. im not a person that enjoys getting high but if its gonna help my gains then fuck i could care less if i die tomorrow.

Its easy to get your hands on. But why would u pump something into your body with the streetname GBH (grievous bodily harm)

 

[markshark]

Its easy to get your hands on. But why would u pump something into your body with the streetname GBH (grievous bodily harm)

dude if i knew crack would give me gains id spend my entire life savings on it and live in a box. i could care less what i put in my body. in fact i hope im dead in a few years.

 

[markshark]

Great responses... thank you all. I don't have problems sleeping... just curious about what kind of sleep you need to build muscle. Plenty of answers now.

Here's another one for you sleep experts..... I typically wake up naturally after about 6 1/2 hours of sleep.... now.... do i get up... or do i lay in bed and try to get 8-10? I probably wont be able to hit REM again... but will just lay there relaxed.

--Techbaseball

just lay there and go back to sleep bro. no harm in it...youll just feel more rested and recovered. besides the main gh-inducing sleep only lasts about 4 hours anyway.

 

[Vertigo]

Kleitman just rolled over in his grave......

 

[shape]

most people dont use it for sleep because they are ravers and junkies but im sure there are plenty in the bbing community that do. shit if i could get my hands on it i would use it for sleep. im not a person that enjoys getting high but if its gonna help my gains then fuck i could care less if i die tomorrow.

?????? hah what can i say--more useless babble-----u could care less if u die tommorow???----what good would yours "gains" be if you were dead--MORON

 

[immortalis]

Id pop GHB on a nightly basis if I could. I cant find any anywhere. I have EXTREME sleep problems. I rotate medications in order to combat this on a nightly basis...

tylenol PM
nyquil
xanax
lunesta
ambien
sonata
weed
and various herbal remedies.

I have intense back pain which causes severe discomfort when attmepting to sleep, and couple that with regular insomnia and i rarely can get over 5 hours of sleep a night. It sucks so hard.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Seriously... who the hell has time for 8 hours of sleep a night? and naps?? are you kidding? I mean... I work an average day 8-9 hours... add 2-3 hours commute time.... feed & walk the dog... hit the gym... have dinner... by the time you know it, it's already after 11PM and you have to wake up at 6am the next day....

 

[markshark]

Seriously... who the hell has time for 8 hours of sleep a night? and naps?? are you kidding? I mean... I work an average day 8-9 hours... add 2-3 hours commute time.... feed & walk the dog... hit the gym... have dinner... by the time you know it, it's already after 11PM and you have to wake up at 6am the next day....

seriously...i agree.

 

[markshark]

?????? hah what can i say--more useless babble-----u could care less if u die tommorow???----what good would yours "gains" be if you were dead--MORON

id rather live short and look good than look like shit, live long and be miserable

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

it used to be sold at nutrition stores bro as a sleep aid i believe. i personally wouldnt use it. i dont really see the benefit. but im pretty sure that apart from the ravers and whatnot, theres people that used it or still use it as a recovery method. cant say i;d agree with its use, but there are people that do it.

You are correct sir.. GNC carried it at one time.. Better ways to get some rest than take this stuff, just my opinion!

 

[Vertigo]

I pray to the God of Gyno Reversal that some newbie doesn't read some of this crap and take it seriously! There are ideas expressed in this thread that are alarmingly stupid. I'm not going to post my CV on this forum, that would qualify under the prior sentence. But, I can assure you all, they're are easier and more effective ways to optimize your muscle growth than sedative induced short term coma. I have to move on to something else now before I start hollering "SHIT" and flopping on the floor........

 

[KD1]

Seriously... who the hell has time for 8 hours of sleep a night? and naps?? are you kidding? I mean... I work an average day 8-9 hours... add 2-3 hours commute time.... feed & walk the dog... hit the gym... have dinner... by the time you know it, it's already after 11PM and you have to wake up at 6am the next day....

Well you can do what I do, get a place within walking distance to work, the gym and shopping. My mortgage is a bitch, but the quality of life makes up for it ( in my case anyhow ). I have so much more time than when I had a commute. Plus its easy to keep your bodyfat low when you walk as much as I do.

 

[markshark]

i seriously dont feel much of a difference between getting 6 hours or 8 hours a night. if i can lay down before a workout and doze a little im cool.

 

[GymIntensity]

Seriously... who the hell has time for 8 hours of sleep a night? and naps?? are you kidding? I mean... I work an average day 8-9 hours... add 2-3 hours commute time.... feed & walk the dog... hit the gym... have dinner... by the time you know it, it's already after 11PM and you have to wake up at 6am the next day....

its hard to achieve perfection without dedication bro. Not saying anyone can necessarily be perfect, you just have to dedicate yourself to "trying" to be perfect. a full 8 hours of sleep is just beneficial

 

[bigtasty25]

im just njmuscleguy on this one...its hard getting alot of sleep especially for us college students/grad students...i start grad schooll in the fall for nursing to get my BSN and im a competitive bodybuilder as well and ill probably do some part time jobs on the side to make extra dough to pay pills through college although ill probably get a college loan, but I feel for us "busy bodies" ...5-6 hours a day is fine during the week...hour nap during the day if possible even better...8 hours on the weekend...

doing this...I seem to function really well...

 

[Prizz]

Xyrem huh? Wow, I had no idea this was around..... A few drug companies tried to get a GHB derivative approved in the late 90's for sleep, but the FDA never budged..... I guess this is one of those drugs, and it finally made it..... I'm an EX GHB addict, started using the stuff when it was legal..... For me, I can't use the stuff responsibly..... It gives a huge Dopamine release, which puts you in a GREAT mood quick..... I loved the way it made me feel, so I wound up taking it all day long.... The problem is GHB is very dose sensitive, meaning if you take just a lil bit over your normal dose in the daytime, it can knock you out cold, which happened to me a few times..... Anyway, my point is that just cause I became a GHB addict, and couldn't use the stuff in a responsible manner, doesn't mean other people can't..... GHB is the BEST sleep aid ever IMO..... It works within 30mins, puts you in deep sleep fast, and you wake up feeling SUPER refreshed, even with 3-4hrs sleep..... This doesn't take away GHB's dangers though, it's a dangerous compound that can be abused in many ways.....

rizz