See what you are missing by not belonging to AF
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
Read the two studies in the ester post.
100mg of deca shut down people in 5 days and kept them down for up to 32 days from one shot!
The other study on suppression of the HPT axis shows that 250mg and 500mg/week caused shut down to ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, in 2 weeks! NANANANANA!
100mg/week of test caused shut down in 5-6 wks.
EOD!
Anarchy in the USA!
Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000
decadon
AF Senior Member
posted 03-23-2001 09:24 AM
other than anavar and primo what are the quickest hpta forgiving roids...I am guessing that deca is among the worst
Posts: 189 | Registered: 02-15-2001
Decaman
Moderator with the voice of reason
posted 03-23-2001 09:32 AM
This one ougtha get interesting
I AM THE NEW PANTY RAIDER!
Posts: 2461 | From: DECALAND | Registered: 11-09-2000
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
posted 03-23-2001 10:06 AM
Yea it will, because like I said....
Those that made it up were liars or just very bad at looking at any evidence at all. If you look at the IA study you see it is over 20 yrs old! Pretty hard to miss that if you are gonna be a professional writer and want to create a new method! Or could it be that they just wanted to dupe people into buying their mags and shit so they chose to ignore it to the detriment of all their readers? Wouldn't be the first time people in the nutrition industry did crap like that!
Now that's embarrassing!
Anarchy in the USA!
Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000
Ivan Drago
AF Icon
posted 03-23-2001 10:33 AM
Just wondering...
If anybody who practiced short cycles did run blood test after, and what were results.
I know,that MeanOne claims that some of his clients did blood test after short cycles and were back to normal after 3-4 weeks.I don't believe him too much,so would be interesting to know if anybody else did it...
Drexx,Mr.Nobody????
Posts: 841 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000
DSPO
Sniper
posted 03-23-2001 10:53 AM
I hear DREXX, MR. Nobody and Bchemist right around the corner.
“Knowledge allows you greater possibilities”...Dan Duchaine
Posts: 409 | Registered: 12-10-2000
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 03-23-2001 11:02 AM
Mr. Nobody here
I am 5 weeks post my 2nd FWC, and I did a blood test 3 days ago, but have to wait for my results, the test was for total or free testosterone (forgot), thyroid and glucose ordered by my urologist. I wanted to wait for the results to post.
I'll keep you all informed.
Incidently, I have a sneaky suspicion, that the enanthate at 1200mg on day one combined with the tren at 75mg/day propably did a very good job of suppression.
ANIMAL: the subject NEVER was avoiding suppression but RAPID RECOVERY!
I shall see when I am getting my test results back. If I am still suppressed, than FUCK THE FWC.
Having said that, I still think it could work with different drugs such as prop and dbol. But I won't try, my next one will be a big one either way.
BTW: ANIMAL: Did you get my email in regards to bromocriptine/clomid combo? If not, my question was, if you still advocate bromo to support recovery.......
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.
[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 03-23-2001 at 10:56 AM.]
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
Slopain
Bitch Pig
posted 03-23-2001 11:27 AM
My scientific evidence is: I hate the fango wango cycles - I like to be ON not OFF. No reasoning behind that other than I make better gains the more I am on.
- If you want 1 year of prosperity, grow grain. If you want 10 years of prosperity, grow trees. If you want 100 years of prosperity, grow people. -
Posts: 499 | Registered: 11-14-2000
Ivan Drago
AF Icon
posted 03-23-2001 11:39 AM
I read that abstract ...
and may be I'm missing something,but seems that study doesn't contradict short cycles theory.Hypothalamus is suppressed completely,and pituitery takes a little longer.That's the whole idea of faster recovery,so...?
Besides,using esters like enanthate or cypionate is being on the edge of breaking the line were short cycle become conventional.Orals and short acting test are a way to go.
Of course,it's not scientific study,and may be,he is just lying,but Bill Roberts's client used dbol only for 2 weeks(50mg/day)with Clomid(50mg/eod),then continue Clomid 50mg/ed for 3 weeks.Run blood test and it shows that he's back to normal.Gained 13lbs. and kept 10 of them.
Posts: 841 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 03-23-2001 11:55 AM
I agree ID. Enanthate is pushing the limits. However this suppression vers. recovery is very subjective and should be assesed individually. 2 weeks would be a guide line. But as stated above, tren is short acting, but could have lasting affects on the hpta (it attaches to receptors very tightly) and would therefore be also a poor choice. Long time ago I asked the board that question, but the answer was: Do blood tests to be sure.
Bottom line: You must do tests to know for sure, and I am doing mine. However are my results representative for everybody: NO
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
Ivan Drago
AF Icon
posted 03-23-2001 12:06 PM
Hm,of course,it's very individual,but Tren is very poor example.Because of it having something to do with progesteron(I'm not sure,how it works) it effects HPTA like anything else,beside Nandrolone.I think, Tren should be considered exception and shouldn't be used in short cycle.
Posts: 841 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 03-23-2001 01:35 PM
Bump for the Animal reply
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
DREXX
Crisco Stock Shareholder
posted 03-23-2001 04:56 PM
I like fango-wango's better because....
1) On regular cycle I get 95% of my gains in 4 weeks and then the gains slow to a halt no matter what I do.
2) After a regular cycle I lose as much as 50% of my gains after 6 weeks off even when I use clomid, glutamine, creatine and increase protein intake.
3) After a long cycle I generally feel depressed while waiting for my natural hormone levels to get back to normal.
With a Fango-Wango's I take advantage of my best gaining period, I don't lose as much and I feel good even off cycle.
Fango's may disrupt the HPTA more than what Bill Roberts suggest but it's not as bad as being on for a longer period.
I think the H might get shutdown but not that P and T.
Either way it's not important for me.
I have 3 good reason's for doing these cycles and that's enough for me.
The only exception is for pre-contest then a 12 week cycle is perfect so that you have 12 weeks of time for intense dieting and cardio while the AAS takes care of not losing mass.
If it's not hard it's not worth doing...
Posts: 1157 | From: Canada | Registered: 11-10-2000
MR. BMJ
THE INTIMIDATOR
posted 03-23-2001 06:14 PM
The IA study was proposed in Oct. 1997.
Here is one OLDER study that I found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6416111&dopt=Abstract
MR. BMJ
[This message was edited by MR. BMJ on 03-23-2001 at 05:20 PM.]
[This message was edited by MR. BMJ on 03-23-2001 at 05:23 PM.]
Posts: 704 | Registered: 11-23-2000
Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot
posted 03-24-2001 12:14 AM
Well...
I'm not a believer that a FWC will keep you from suppressing your endogenous production. But, like Drexx, I am going to keep my cycles relatively short (4-6 wks) simply because I do not make any significant gains after that point.
However, the length of time before natural testosterone recovery in those studies may not be indicative of whe time it would take if clomid or *** were used.
Posts: 661 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000
ontariowrestler
The Enigmatic One
posted 03-24-2001 08:14 AM
I will save my comments until I can read the full text of the second study. It may in fact help prove why 2 week cycles work.
Hopefully Ulter will let us know when it is availble to read.
I also briefly glanced at the study on deca, and it too, may be useful in showing why short cycles work. Unfortunately, they neglected to gather data equally on all the groups.
[This message was edited by ontariowrestler on 03-24-2001 at 08:06 AM.]
Posts: 142 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: 11-10-2000
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
posted 03-24-2001 08:31 AM
How much more does it take!
So many have to cling on to the last bit of hope that something will work when all evidence points against.
1 shot of 100mg Npp or deca shut down people. 100mg of AS in the IA study shut people down. Read the recycling of AS from depots and you really believe that every AS molecule you take orally goes right into the muscle. Hehe! While you may be done taking the no ester as, the AS will still be being 'recycled' into the blood stream by coming from the fat cells.
When the FDA looked at prohormomes which are basically AS structures without esters, the pros met all criteria including hormonal suppression!
The reason they aren't illegal is that the pros don't fit the same as AS when taken orally by not causing any increase in performance or growth.
The ester is irrelevant! The ester is REMOVED by esterases as soon as the AS hits the blood.
The HPT IS NOT seeing an ester or not seeing an ESTER! It is seeing AS structures. That is discussed in the Minto study and others.
Yes, deca and tren and other synthetics of the 19nor genre, will shut down the HPT harder because they slow nerve growth. However, that didn't matter in the IA study when testosterone was used!
HPT recovery was still very delayed!
Now, if you go back and read the original hype and written version of the fangowangocycle where 'they said' they did blood tests, they say the reason is to stop shutdown and allow the HPT to recover faster.
With all that above we can see neither of those is true in the least. Furthermore as they advocate use of clomid, that extends greater levels of AS hitting the HPT for even longer! I suggest you look at the minto study where they discuss what and only what LH can do to/for endo testosterone.
(I knew many would miss that)
Clomid does not and there is nothing that will clear the HPT and even if you still believed that 2 weeks won't shut you down in the face of all the evidence, you are now extending it to 4 weeks via 2 weeks of clomid!
It should have been amazing enough for people to see that the HPT can be shut down in 5-7 days, but I guess it must not be real. Nevertheless, the HPT does not see esters and type of AS would not really matter much at all
Anarchy in the USA!
Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000
ontariowrestler
The Enigmatic One
posted 03-24-2001 09:23 AM
I would like to read the minto study, do you know where it is available online? The thing I found was Dr. Cathy Minto's Research Study
Looking at Vaginal Size, and I am pretty sure that is not what you are referring to.
Posts: 142 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: 11-10-2000
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
posted 03-24-2001 10:41 AM
My vaj is quite tight, but
here's the real one.
Damn they are into AS and vaj. That's a research team I might work for!
The Minto et al article can be read in full at
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/93#F2
Anarchy in the USA!
Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000
Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot
posted 03-24-2001 11:10 AM
LOL @ Ontariowrestler!
Posts: 661 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000
JimLayhoe
TAPEWORM
posted 03-24-2001 07:17 PM
JIM LAYHOE
[email protected]
Posts: 452 | From: ontario | Registered: 02-11-2001
MONSTROSITY
STRENGTH AND HONOR
posted 03-24-2001 07:26 PM
Animal you say that short cycles are garbage.......well what exactly do you recommend? 8-10 week cycles? Then a 8-10 week layoff from AS? You also confused me with your comment on clomid, are you for it's use or against it?
Thanks Bro!
Image:
http://www.crowescorner.com/gladpics/3.jpg
Posts: 338 | Registered: 11-21-2000
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
posted 03-25-2001 10:58 AM
Yes, they are garbage!
First go back and read the ass family member who conjured up the fangowango. There were no follow up studies of LH, FSH, EVER!
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/93#F2
No, the minto study shows that recovery will take
8-32 days. Hmmm, 4 weeks is 28 days isn't it?
So 2 weeks on and then 2 weeks clomid which will further saturate the HPT is gonna put you PAST the HPT clearance/recovery pd. Now, it is well know and documented and discussed usually yearly at the national meeting of sports science medicine that it takes anywhere from 4-6 mos to recover from HPT saturation. And while that's long cycles, it's still indicative. I believe that those other studies using the testosterones showed long recovery pds when I read them in full as well.
Generation of gains in NEW strength and not strength from creatine affects, comes on in 4-6 weeks because that's how long it takes for new innervation and muscle training to begin!
And from the other study posted you can see when you get the max AS in the blood stream is quite awhile!
NP was given to 5 healthy men in doses of 100 mg/week for the first 3 weeks followed by 200 mg/week for 10 further weeks. Serum NT levels increased gradually and maximal concentrations were reached in the 13th treatment week (20.2 +/- 3.4 nmol/l). Measurable amounts of NT were detectable for 19 weeks after the last injection. The study shows that NT accumulates under this treatment regime and wider spacing of the injection intervals may be possible in future trials.
And again, the comment was made that 'ester is important in a fangowango', but since Te and Tcyp are the same as for release rates and both peak in 1-2 days and are gone in 2 weeks, that would be perfect, wouldn't it? 2 weeksis the FWC mantra, right?
The recommend orals, right? Well, winny is an oral, but it's metabolites can be detected for 6 mos now so I guess orals aren't gone as fast as they say they are!
And then we have the oral nandrolone prohormones that people keep getting busted for. Those are orals, correct? Surely they aren't all taking them up to the day of competition, but they are still showing up!
Part of it is A ring baby! The AS metabolites they look for come from breakdown of the A ring if I remember correctly. Other AS orals could STILL BE THERE, but when the A ring is broken they look like a testosterone metabolite, so don't fool yourself that just because a metabolite isn't being detected in a tested competition, that the AS isn't still there!
(I wish I could find that section of one study on the recycling of the Tp, damnit!)
Anarchy in the USA!
Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000
Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot
posted 03-25-2001 01:03 PM
Animal,
There is a huge difference between an AS metabolite and the parent steroid. Most metabolites are biologically inactive and incapable of binding to the AR and/or ER. Therefore, I *doubt* that the metabolites would have an effect on restoration of the HPT.
Posts: 661 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000
Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need!
posted 03-26-2001 09:39 AM
That's not what I said!
How do you decide on which AS to take?
All esters are removed nearly immediately upon entrance to the bloodstream, therefore, all you have muscle and HPT and whatever else seeing is THE PARENT molecule. 'AS structure' we'll call it because prohormones have that same 'parent structure' and can affect the muscle and HPT as well. Now, that AS structure goes everywhere including fat cells, etc. And that's even if the parent AS is the worst at binding to the AR as a molecule like Winny is.
Ok, so all we have is that AS structure in the cells even if it is from an oral. How do you or anybody know how long it takes for that AS structure to clear totally from the body! From what the 'experts' say?
NO! We can look at drug tests which is what I was saying. Now, if the parent molecule is around in the fat cell and that parent AS structure molecule is required to make a metabolite that can be detected, then that is indicative of how long the AS ACTUALLY IS PRESENT!
If you are getting positive tests for a metabolite 6 weeks after an oral is stopped as is the case in W and any form of nandrolone (prohormones), then I'd say the parent AS structure is still around to produce that metabolite as the metabolite is eliminated in the urine rather quickly.
To have a metabolite you must have the existance of the parent AS! (and it would have to be around fairly recently)
And all I was saying in my previous post is how it interesting that the same orals keep showing up in drug tests and those orals are either 19's like the nandrolone prohormones, or winstrol. NOt many, if any are getting popped for taking anadrol and dianabol and we know they are so I threw out the idea that the reason is that the metabolite of the A and D looks like a test metabolite because we know that orals can stick around for months as is proven by positive tests regarding use of oral norprohormones and winstrol!
Anarchy in the USA!
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=702093973&f=3910957431&m=3290916251
I have read a bunch of older posts from Drexx, Mr Nobody, Fonz, and a few others about some short cycles they were doing. All science aside do you guys still like short cycles?
I like 4 weekers (with 2-4weeks off) but its real hard to stop sometimes. Sometimes a planned 4 weeker becomes a 6month cycle.
Q
Posts: 344 | From: Q | Registered: 05-14-2002
division
Disrupt-Degrade-Devastate
posted 06-14-2002 07:21 PM
Q.....as a soldier.....
you had to have discpline......so why should cycles be any different? If you plan out the 4 week cycle, stick to it, don't drag it out or you defeat the purpose. I think If I were to go back to active duty It would have to be as a Drill Sgt. There's nothing like putting youngsters through hell for the 1st time!
At Ease Q!!!!
"One Love
One Thug
One Nation"
T.S.
Posts: 262 | From: thesickcity | Registered: 03-24-2002
BigJay81
Man who speaketh his mind...
posted 06-14-2002 09:31 PM
I think "Q" knows a little more then he is letting on. If infact this is the "Q" from a long time ago?
And if I remeber correct he is one of the same people who just stopped gainning any progress after week 4 and felt it was a waste of money to run it further?
Forgive me if I'm wrong!! I just have a lot of articles saved from the Rocks and I kinda have them down to the "t".
Q good to have you back I think I read you on the playground again as well
www.whazsupp.com
peace
j
Posts: 296 | Registered: 11-12-2000
ultragainz
Iam Too big,Iam Too sexy,Iam just Too sweeeet
posted 06-14-2002 09:51 PM
if 4 weekers work for you then go for it..everyone is different...i should try it never tried anything like that
what are you going to do when ultragainz runs wild on you?!-
Hollywood ultragainz
-nWo-4Life
Posts: 180 | From: The World Is Yours/New World Order/Some Where In Europe/oxford college | Registered: 06-06-2001
Cranium Man
AF Senior Member
posted 06-14-2002 10:21 PM
8 t12 weaks give's the juice enough time to work. Best results time wise, my experience,,,
Posts: 101 | Registered: 08-26-2001
Billy_Bathgate
The Hamburglar
posted 06-15-2002 01:28 AM
What kind of cycle would you run for 2-4wks?
My guess would be like 100-200mgTestsuspension and 100-200mgTrensuspension ED? Or, I guess anything would work after you rip off the ester. I would think that even Prop would be too long acting for a 2-4 week cycle.
What do you think Q?
Posts: 1315 | From: Indiana | Registered: 02-19-2001
Ulter
Professional Moderator.
posted 06-15-2002 09:30 AM
I have done only 2 4 weeks cycles and they were ok, but I still prefer 8 if I am using cyp/deca because they don't get started until 4. If I am using prop/tren/winny then I like 6.
Posts: 10586 | From: Orlando Florida | Registered: 11-09-2000
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 06-15-2002 11:26 AM
My reason for doing 2 week cycles was to see if I could maintain my HPTA and not suppress it or only suppress it slightly.
Blood test afterwards (5 weeks after cessation, if I remember correctly) showed very low LH and very low test. Therefore I concluded, that they didn't work for me.
If you try anyways, I recommand dbol and suspension only. Stay away from fina, deca, enanthate and all other highly suppressive AAS.
But remember most true muscle and strength gains take 4 weeks (nerve growth?).
I wish we have something that would attach to the steroid receptors in the HP and prevent transcription, like we have clomid for estrogen receptors in the HP. Then we all could juice away without worrying about natural test reduction
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
Kodiaklabs
AF Member
posted 06-16-2002 01:23 AM
You can use long acting esters for short cycles as long as you frontload with the peak value. This will cause your peak to start from day one instead of week 4. For instance If you plan to inject 1g of Test Cyp/week, then on the first day inject 2g. If you do the math you will figure out that the peak value will remain at 2g when you consider test cyp to have a half life of 1 week.
Posts: 55 | From: Chicago, Illinois USA | Registered: 05-22-2002
Got wood?
posted 06-16-2002 01:29 AM
I have tried short cycles and find them a waste. With enanthate you don't start to feel it until week 2-4 so you just get started and then stop. Thats crazy to me.
biggie
sex is something between a man, his wife and her girlfriend
posted 06-16-2002 01:44 AM
I have never responded well to short cycles and have never found any true benefit to them. Using a long ester would be a complete mistake. Even with front loading you don't feel the effect until the second week and you are still shut down 2 to 3 weeks after you end the cycle which rules out a speedy recovery. Dbol and suspension might work but it seems to me like you are just on a hormone rollercoaster all the time. If you find it to be beneficial let us know though you never know what you will learn.
Posts: 191 | Registered: 07-18-2001
Q
Blast from the Past
posted 06-17-2002 09:50 AM
I have done everything from 4 weeks to close to 52-week cycles, As for the 4 weekers, well they work great if you bridge them with maintenance levels of gear and non-androgens. For me its not really about HPTA, but I would think that 4weeks on 2-4 week bridges for 6 months would be easier on your hpta then 6 months straight out. My interest in this way of cycling was renewed by a post on Animals board (I forget by who).
Even if HPTA isn't affected less, for me the sides are lower and the gear keeps working longer.
Q
Posts: 344 | From: Q | Registered: 05-14-2002
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 06-17-2002 10:04 AM
Are you on HRT? Why arent you worried about your HPTA?
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
Q
Blast from the Past
posted 06-17-2002 11:22 AM
I have been using on and off for 14 years
I have cycled for almost a year straight with high dosages and my natural test levels are still normal (low side of normal but normal none the less). I am confident that regardless how I cycle I can get my HPTA back to acceptable levels in 8 weeks or less. While it is low (for my recovery time) I can use non-androgen to keep my gains and mood enhancers to maintain my workout enthusiasm.
Q
Posts: 344 | From: Q | Registered: 05-14-2002
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 06-17-2002 12:07 PM
I all honesty, I like 6 weeks the most. However, I am gonna try a longer cycle next time. Contrary to what we have tought and believe here, I will try to increase AAS load as the cycles progresses. That way I should be able to overcome that wall I encounter at week 4-6.
Most likely I will start at 750 - 1000mg test with some Eq and go up carefuly when gains slow.
My problem is that I do not recover easily, I have written several posts here what it takes for me to recover, and it is a lot of meds and super long breaks. I believe that a vascectomy several years ago has compromised my HPTA. I seized AAS around 1987 and started back 3 years ago, 7 years after my vascectomy.
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.
[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 06-17-2002 at 02:55 PM.]
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
harddtime
Regulator
posted 06-17-2002 02:51 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
I believe that a vascectomy several years ago has compromised my HPTA. I seized AAS around 1987 and started back 3 years ago, after my vascectomy.
.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr N, if you don't mind me asking, how does a vasectomy compromise HPTA? if i remember correct from my bio class isn't vasectomy just cutting of the tube that carries sperm? thanks
- harddtime
Posts: 524 | From: jersey | Registered: 07-07-2001
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 06-17-2002 03:52 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by harddtime:
Mr N, if you don't mind me asking, how does a vasectomy compromise HPTA? if i remember correct from my bio class isn't vasectomy just cutting of the tube that carries sperm? thanks
- harddtime
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read this:
The Unkindest Cut of All
By Dr Malcolm Carruthers, MD.
Vasectomy is a seemingly simple operation, a real snip, which couldn't possibly go wrong - or could it? It is often presented as the ideal and infallible solution to family planning. What could be simpler than tying the vas, the narrow tubes carrying the sperm from the testicles to the prostate, where the seminal vesicles add the other ingredients of the seminal fluid making up the ejaculated semen? No sperm - No problems.Unfortunately, it's not quite that easy. The testicles, as any man will testify, are very delicate and sensitive structures. They are very complex organs, with a rich nerve, blood and lymphatic supply. Also they are under intricate hormonal and temperature control to regulate sperm and testosterone production. So that the man doesn't produce antibodies to his own sperm, which to the rest of the body is foreign protein, there are important defences keeping the sperm isolated from the immune system. All these systems can be disrupted, even when the vasectomy seems to have gone smoothly, and there can be an alarming variety of short and long term complications, which can sometimes be serious.
Short Term Complications
Post vasectomy pain syndrome - This fortunately rare complication can turn a previously fit man into a chronic invalid. Even if the operation was painless, and not accompanied by the bruising and immediate post-operative discomfort which is quite common, weeks, months or or years after the operation, nagging pain begins at the site. Sometimes tender cysts, or lumps called granulomas, can arise around the cut ends of the vas, and even if further surgery is performed to cut them out, the pain persists. This can be one of the most difficult problems in andrology to treat, especially as the precise cause is usually unknown. More research is urgently needed to prevent and treat the condition - doctors please contact us if you have any advice or experience in treating these problems.
Long Term Complications
Even though vasectomy first became popular in the 1920's, because Ludvig Steinach, a Viennese surgeon suggested it stimulated rejuvenating testosterone production in the testicles by removing redundant sperm producing cells, the more recent evidence is that it may eventually reduce production of this key hormone and contribute to onset of the male menopause.Certainly my experience, and that of other doctors giving testosterone treatment, is that vasectomy makes it more likely that a man will develop the male menopause, and at an earlier age4. In a series of over 1,000 cases of the condition seen in my Harley Street Clinic over the past ten years, 25% had had vasectomy, about twice the level in the general population. In our global web survey, 35% of men who completed the Andropause Check List reported vasectomy, and at impotence clinics in Australia the rate was reported as 45%.Though again the mechanism of this reduced hormonal production is unclear, the most likely cause seems to be an auto-immunity to sperm released into the tissues after the vasectomy5, a immunological time-bomb ticking away. Again more research is needed to prove how this happens and can be treated. Reversing the vasectomy does not seem a good idea, as the damage is done early on, and attempts at reconstructing the vas may only stir up further trouble, more pain or more antibodies.The evidence on whether vasectomy may contribute to higher levels of testicular cancer a few years after the operation, and give rise to prostate cancer and heart disease, especially in diabetics, is sharply divided and reviewed in chapter five of my book "Maximising Manhood: Beating the Male Menopause".
Conclusions About Vasectomy
Personally I would strongly advise against vasectomy, which is a major trauma to the testis, a delicate and complex organ producing a variety of external secretions and hormones, including testosterone. Any oral contraceptive, used either with men or women, with an equivalent range of short and long term complications, would surely have been taken off the market by now and the manufacturers heavily sued. Why not apply to same stringent conditions to vasectomy?
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
harddtime
Regulator
posted 06-18-2002 02:57 AM
thanks, thats def far from what i learned in bio class.
- harddtime
Posts: 524 | From: jersey | Registered: 07-07-2001
Kodiaklabs
AF Member
posted 06-18-2002 01:42 PM
Got Wood?
That is the reason you frontload the enanthate. If you simply inject your regular 1g/week it takes amonth for your blood values to reach their peak value of 2g. But if you frontload with 2g on the first day your peak begins on the first day.
Posts: 55 | From: Chicago, Illinois USA | Registered: 05-22-2002
Mr. Nobody
Ich will daß ihr mich versteht
posted 06-18-2002 02:44 PM
quote:
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Originally posted by Kodiaklabs:
That is the reason you frontload the enanthate. If you simply inject your regular 1g/week it takes amonth for your blood values to reach their peak value of 2g. But if you frontload with 2g on the first day your peak begins on the first day.
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so what, it still takes 2 weeks to feel.
And then with its 5-10 day half live too much remains in your system at day 14 for recovery.
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise.
Posts: 3135 | Registered: 11-30-2000
Fonz
Nuclear Wizard
posted 06-18-2002 04:19 PM
quote:
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Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:
My reason for doing 2 week cycles was to see if I could maintain my HPTA and not suppress it or only suppress it slightly.
Blood test afterwards (5 weeks after cessation, if I remember correctly) showed very low LH and very low test. Therefore I concluded, that they didn't work for me.
If you try anyways, I recommand dbol and suspension only. Stay away from fina, deca, enanthate and all other highly suppressive AAS.
But remember most true muscle and strength gains take 4 weeks (nerve growth?).
I wish we have something that would attach to the steroid receptors in the HP and prevent transcription, like we have clomid for estrogen receptors in the HP. Then we all could juice away without worrying about natural test reduction
_Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advise._
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Correct. Muscle growth is actually DEPENDENT
on Nerve Growth.
It takes time for the necessary nerve
function adaptation to occur from
accelerated contractile tissue growth.
Fonz
Posts: 1807 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001
Kodiaklabs
AF Member
posted 06-18-2002 04:33 PM
BChemist had good luck with a 2g frontload of enanthate in a 14 day cycle. Check the completed cycles forum a couple years back
http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...12093973&m=5293024375&r=6433020475#6433020475
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