"Shaping" your body

[SteelWeaver]

The title is misleading, but I have a question about the possibility of changing symmetry when cutting. So, the chances of gaining LBM whilst cutting are miniscule to none, as a natty, right? Therefore, the parts of my body that were not well developed before I started cutting, are going to remain exactly that - undeveloped, right?

The only thing about the shape of my body that will change as I diet is that fat will come off - and my muscles will show through, thus my hips, waist, etc will LOOK smaller in relation to shoulders, but shoulders will NOT actually GROW bigger. Is this correct?

So the enormous amount of energy that I am currently expending in the gym, at high intensity, is serving simply to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue, but will not result in growth?

If that's true, I have to say, it's very depressing.

Is it true?

 

[Gladiola]

"serving simply to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue"

Umm, I think so. Not 100% sure as I'm not a Master-degreed exercise physiologist or nuttin'

But... the energy you expend in the gym is also helping you to burn calories & keep your metabolism revved up - to help you burn that fat (in addition to the preservation thing) - right? So the preservation isn't the *only* purpose.

Plus there's that whole mental aspect.... I'm known to get "pissy" when I can't hit the iron It's quite key to my mental health... aside from my physical health & appearance.

 

[Bikini Mod]

If you are natty... then sorry, yes, that is pretty much it. The good news is that as you cut you will actually look bigger to some degree as you will have definition. When you are done cutting down, you will TRULY see what areas need more work than others.

God, I remember my first show... I always thought my legs were too big! HA! Can you say, "Cluck like a chicken?" It was mostly water and fat.... And of course, practically void of shoulders and lats... what were those? So, I just hit it harder than ever and grew me some! tee-hee

 

[Cheetarah]

Okay, maybe I am one of the few then. I'm natural and I've been cutting since August and averaging losing fat at about the same rate I'm GAINING muscle. I'm thinking it is due to my particular diet (not much below maintenance calories) and my genetics. Perhaps length of time training too? It'll be two years in March that I've been weight lifting so not very long I guess. But anyway, I'm in no hurry to lose the fat, I prefer to do it nice and slow so as not to lose ANY muscle mass and as such, I've actually been GAINING muscle mass WHILE losing fat. I started at 22% body fat in August and as of Jan. 11th was 17% body fat altho I did make it to 16.6% before Thanksgiving, the holidays really set me back. And again, losing the fat but actually gaining muscle. So I just had to step in here and say, nope! I'm natural and I'm doing it. Hope I can keep it up til I reach my goal of 12%! If anybody cares to throw out any explanations, feel free!

 

[Gladiola]

Hey... I've really been meaning to paste this to it's own thread... but here it is now.

The below is cut & pasted from a friend of mine who is a Physical Therapist, Master's degree in exercise physio, certified Personal Trainer with NSCA & was just published in their journal. It all seems sound to me & I definitely think genetics are a factor... i.e. some ppl may be able to simulateously burn fat & build muscle at 17% while others could not.

************************************************
As to the claim that once the 17% body fat level is reached, muscle won't be built and fat won't be burned naturally (meaning without supplements), I haven't ever heard this specifically. There would be something to the statement, I think, based
on the body's survival/starvation mechanism. Bodyfat storage ensures survival in a situation where there are very few calories being eaten. Muscle is metabolically active, so in times of perceived food shortage, the body will catabolize muscle both
for nourishment and for slowing metabolism (to be able to last longer on restricted calories). This is the reason that severely restricting calories to lose weight is counterproductive--body goes into starvation mode, stores everything it can as fat
and burns muscle to feed itself. It would make sense that once the body fat level drops to the point that the body perceives itself to be starving, it would hold onto as much fat as possible and resist increasing the more metabolically active muscle mass.

Do I think it's impossible to continue to lose fat and gain muscle at this point? No. I think it will be much slower going and that the variables with exercise and diet will have to be carefully manipulated. You will have to consume enough calories to prevent the body perceiving a starvation situation. You may have to accept plateaus in your fat loss/muscle gain for short periods until the body adjusts and realizes that it isn't being starved. Cardio training may have to drop to a lower intensity for a longer duration and strength training may have to be preceeded by a modified carb loading type diet--both training modifications to
prevent glycogen depletion and to maximize fat contribution to fueling the exercise. Remember though, this last paragraph is my theory only.

 

[Cheetarah]

Good post Gladiola. Yeah, and I aim to keep "tricking" my body into burning fat and building muscle. My cals are only 200-300 below my maintenance calories so apparently I haven't alarmed my body and made it think it's starving, so that's good. I will just have to try and keep it up. My cals fluctuate from 2100-2400 depending on my activity level. I generally eat enough cals to not feel like I'm starving and only to the point of just feeling a little hungry or like I COULD eat most of the time. I must be doing something right! 12% here I come!

 

[rez]

"tricking" my body into burning fat and
building muscle. My cals are only 200-300 below my maintenance calories so
apparently I haven't alarmed my body and made it think it's starving, so that's good. I
will just have to try and keep it up. My cals fluctuate from 2100-2400 depending on my
activity level. I generally eat enough cals to not feel like I'm starving and only to the
point of just feeling a little hungry or like I COULD eat most of the time.

cheetarah...do u mean that u eat just enough at each meal so that your not full, but ready to eat again in 2 hours? how are u tricking your body?
also how much do you weigh? 2400cals looks like a lot to me..

 

[Bikini Mod]

Perhaps I worded my response incorrectly.

What I meant to say was not that it was IMPOSSIBLE... I did it too, but the amount of muslce mass that you will gain while getting very lean will not be as noticeable... ie - if you are practically void of shoulders GOING INTO a cutting diet, then you will not put a tremendous amount of mass on. Your shoulders will appear more defined OBVIOUSLY (because of loss of bodyfat) but you will not get the amount of developement had you NOT been cutting.

I know that sounds confusing, but since I don't have a freaking PHD in the stuff (only sorry shoulders LOL) I can't give you all the technical jargon as to how this works.

As for tree tunk legs - HA... there is NOTHING MORE HUMBLING than dieting down to 10%, losing bf and sucking all the water out of your "too big" legs to see that you should really be clucking and pecking around the barnyard! (GUILTY AS CHARGED!)

TRUST ME when I tell you that the vast majority of you who THINK your legs are too "stocky" or "big" DO NOT REALIZE HOW SMALL THE MUSCLES IN YOUR LEGS REALLY ARE!... Yes, it only took me THREE SHOWS for it to REALLY SINK IN!

I have mananged to put enough mass on my sorry legs to have more definition at 14/15% than I did waaaaaaay back in the day at 11/12%....

I am sorry if I sound confusing. It is 2AM and I am dead tired... just got in from an extremely bizaare night at work.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you ladies. Indeed, "shrinkage" is occurring, but so far is only making me look better. However, B'mom - I think you have a very good point on legs there - my legs are not bulky or chunky to start with - I think they are going to look rather stick-like on stage. But luckily, my upper body isn't too bad in relation. I WAS kind of hoping my legs would grow more, but, oh well, post-comp there will be time ...

 

[Cheetarah]

cheetarah...do u mean that u eat just enough at each meal so that your not full, but ready to eat again in 2 hours? how are u tricking your body? also how much do you weigh? 2400cals looks like a lot to me..

Yes, I eat just enough so that I'm not hungry anymore but not actually full either and in another 2-3 hours I'm getting really hungry again. What I mean by "tricking" my body is just that, the body, especially women with our estrogen, does NOT want to burn fat, it would rather burn carbs and amino acids. So in a sense you have to trick your body into burning the stored fats for energy so that the glycogen and amino acids are spared leaving them free to build muscle instead. There is actually a book out that I've been meaning to get called "Outsmarting the Female Fat Cell" that I'm sure explains it better and tells how to "trick" your body into using stored fat for energy instead of glycogen and aminos. I believe that losing fat, especially for women, is all about insulin control and tricking our bodies into burning stored fat for fuel. It's difficult to do, more for some than others depending on genetics. I tend to put on muscle fairly easily but I also have a hard time losing the fat.

As far as my stats go, I'm 5'5" 140 lbs 17% body fat last I checked on 11 Jan (I'm due to have my bf checked again). Besides putting on muscle fairly easily, I've also come to the conclusion that I have a pretty fast metabolism, based on how much less 90% of other women my same size eat. Yes, I CUT on 2100 - 2400 calories! My maintenance calories are somewhere around 2500 - 2700 calories, that's how much I can eat and I STILL keep the same weight, with the exception of the 2-3 lbs of water weight I always gain when I increase my carbs. Does that explain things any better?

 

[hookdup]

Wow Cheetarah,
I wish I could eat 2000 cals. I eat 6 meals a day and have around 1300 cals and am only seeing very minor results.

I can't wait until I can see my "skinny" legs They look pretty big to me now (he, he).

I guess as the diet starts working and the fat comes off I will finally stop complaining about my big a$$ and legs!

 

[hookdup]

I know I'll be able to up my calories soon.
Right now I have to get my LBM up so that my muscle can speed my metabolism.

I know it'll happen.
I'm just learning to be patient!

 

[hookdup]

It's not the only lesson you and the other ladies have been teaching me Spatts!

You've been more than patient with me!

Thanks again

 

[Cheetarah]

I'm cutting fast on that many cals too. Food fuels the fire. Just have to know which fuels work best for you.

EXACTLY. Spatts, I think you are the only other woman I've met so far that is dieting and HASN'T cut her calories too much! It's more WHAT you eat, than it is how MUCH you eat. I'm sure I wouldn't be having near the success I have if I was eating sugar in my diet.

I also think that besides my genetics, that is one reason why I've always carried relatively more muscle mass than a lot of women, I've never had a problem eating! LOL. My parents used to actually worry about me getting fat cause I've always ate so much but I kept active so I think all the food and activity actually helped me gain more muscle mass than the majority of females. Probably more has to do with genetics but hey, it sounds good. Bottom line, I've never had a problem with not eating enough, I've always been able to "put it away", hehe. So as long as I continue to gain muscle and lose fat, I'll keep on my same diet.

 

[hookdup]

I'm working on finding the right combo too.

It's all a big experiment. That's why I'm learning to be patient.

Rather than get frustrated that something's not working, I'm trying to look at it as I've eliminated another way that is not productive for me, so I'm getting closer to finding something that works.

I'm just trying to stay on a program at least a few weeks before evaluating it though so I can truly see any differences.

It'll come!!!
I know, I know!

 

[Cheetarah]

I remember MS saying one time that it was all about finding out how much you could get away with eating while still losing fat.

Yeah, that sounds about right, I think that's what I've been doing all along. Sure works better than starving or driving yourself crazy trying to stick to something too drastic.

 

[rez]

ye i used to think ide get somewhere by eating less than 1500cals a day. since eating more ive never felt better, trainer harder and looked more cut.

think theres something there to think about...

i used to be seeeeeeriously phobic of carbs, i thought i was the exception to the rule when it came to carbs, now i know better

 

[SteelWeaver]

I know I'll be able to up my calories soon.
Right now I have to get my LBM up so that my muscle can speed my metabolism.

I know it'll happen.
I'm just learning to be patient!

Sweetie, I hate to rain on your parade, but as far as I know, you're not going to gain any LBM on 1300 calories per day. You have an amazing attitude, and an apparent will to work, but right now the most you are doing is cutting fat, along with some muscle, since that's unavoidable when cutting and natural.

To gain LBM you need to eat MORE than your maintenance. You gain some fat, too, but this can be managed by cycling carbs at higher levels.

Cheetarah - great job. I'd love to do something like what you're doing, but frankly, I don't think I could stick to even somewhat reduced cals for any longer than I absolutely have to. I LOVE the relative freedom of a mass gaining diet - and I'm REALLY looking forward to getting back on one someday ...

And Spatts - well, Spatts, you know I am greatly in awe of you.

I'm cutting fairly steadliy right now on 2000 cals a day - and I might add that a bunch of those are carbs - I'm like an animal in the gym!

 

[hookdup]

Originally posted by hookdup Right now I have to get my LBM up so that my muscle can speed my metabolism.

You're right Steel!
I guess what I should have said is I want to lower my body fat so that a have a higher LBM percentage.

I know that means I won't actually have a lot of muscle gain.

I'm kinda doing it backwards I guess. Cutting and then bulking. I want to get my body fat down and then I'll raise my calories.

Believe me, I would raise my calories right now if I could.

I'm trying this method right now, and needless to say am doing weights and cardio and will stay with this for a few more weeks to see if it works. ... and I'll take it from there.

Thanks for all your help. I'm learning sooo much!

 

[rez]

I'm kinda doing it backwards I guess. Cutting and then bulking. I want to get my body fat down and then I'll raise my calories.


Thanks for all your help. I'm learning sooo much! [/B][/QUOTE]

hey sweetie...from experience that exactly what NOT to do. i tried that last year..and all these girls yelled at me for doing it. I wanted to get cut so bad, i thought they didnt understand.
but u hhhhave to do it the other way around. dont bulk crazily, no need for 12 hambergers everyday or nething like that...but once uve built muscle fat will drop.

more food=more muscle=increase metabolism=burn fat.

 

[Cheetarah]

more food=more muscle=increase metabolism=burn fat.

Well put.

 

[hookdup]

Okay, so how many calories should I be having?

I'm 5'0
22 % bf
117 pds.

And ...

if I increase my calories, can I increase my cardio to burn those calories or is that completely counter-productive?

Also, I'm trying to keep track of the weights I'm doing in the gym but I'm not sure how much the bar weighs ....
... you know the bar that you add the weights to???
I use it for squats & lunges and am curious.

 

[Gladiola]

Okay, so how many calories should I be having?

You are in your early 20's? (metabolism slows as you age) I would say in the vicinity of 2,000 on a workout day - a little less on a rest day (1,700). But again, you know you need to experiment. It really is staggering the QUANTITY of food you can eat with 2,000 cal if it's ALL clean

if I increase my calories, can I increase my cardio to burn those calories or is that completely counter-productive?

How much cardio are you doing now? Focus more on gaining that Lean Body Mass - and you don't need the cardio for that. It is good to do some cardio simply to keep your lungs & heart healthy - but 2-3X a week for 30 Min will suffice. You could even forgo that if you do some circuit/supersetting training to get your Heart Rate up while lifting.
When you do cardio, make sure you're not in a carb depleted state (for example, empty stomach FTITM) to increase your chances of NOT burning LBM for energy while doing the cardio.

Heavy bars (like for bench pressing & squats) usually weigh 45 lbs.

 

[hookdup]

Thanks Gladiola,

You totally answered everything !!!!!!

I'm actually 31 and have 2 kids so my metabolism has got to be slow.

I'm doing 20 minutes of interval cardio training 3 x per week but it's FTITM so that may be burning some muscle???

I'm also doing 1 hour of weights 3 times per week.


I'm going to try staying with what I'm doing (while raising my calories) a few more weeks and see what happens... it's Body For Life ... and it supposedly works for so many people so I'm trying to follow it to a T just to learn discipline more than anything else, and I'm also using myself as a human guinea pig ...
The program almost seems to be too good to be true so I testing it for myself.

 

[rez]

hookdup...
i would worry about cals sooo much..concentrate on your grams of carbs, pros and fats.

i weight 106pounds and work it out from there...

at the moment im cutting and do a carb rotating diet which looks like:
high carb day
pro=200-300g
carbs=100g
fat=30g

low carb
pro=200-300g
carb=50g
fat 40g

on the weekends i usally have a zero -20g carb day (from green veg)

 

[hookdup]

Thanks guys,

I'm writing all this stuff down. I still have a couple of weeks on BFL before making any major decisions, but from all the advice I've gotten here, I should have an awesome plan for after BFL.

To be completely honest, I don't think it's working for me... but I just want to stick it out ... They say you've got to be on it for about 4 weeks before you see any results and it's only been 2 weeks so ...

Well, at least my gym work outs seem to be working. I can feel some good muscle under that layer of fat. I'll have to find a digital camera and post some photos for y'all.