Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

[spongebob]

originally quoted by RyanH,

The oil industry, led by George Bush and Dick Cheney are absolutely terrified of Americans someday waking up, and realizing that oil is not only, in part, responsible for our crises in the middle-east, but it's also at the heart of declining environment.

Two oilmen in the WhiteHouse was the last thing our nation needed, or the world for that matter.

But never fear, time is running out on the Ewings and before you know it, a Democrat will have his hand on the Bible becoming the 44th President of the United States of America.

Bush will be left to look on, just as Daddy Sr. did, as a Democrat is sworn into office, to get our nation moving again.

I can't wait.

Ryan.

LOL,yes, quite comical, but thats about it.

uhmmm....bush owned an independent oil and gas company(very small and not very profitable when boom went to bust in texas) and he sold it in 87' i believe.

cheney headed up haliburton(oil and gas servicing company). it does not produce or refine oil.

exxon-mobil, BP oil and Valero energies are in the top three, exxon being the top in the world.

now how are bush and cheney leading the oil industry?

now lets look at the numbers,
during a full 8 years in office what did clinton do to discourage oil consumption or our depedency on persian gulf sources?

total net imports rose from 6.9MMBD in 92' to 10.4MMBD in 00'
imports from saudi arabia slightly rose from 1.33MMBD in 92' to 1.47MMBD in 99'.
imports from opec nations rose from 1.7MMBD in 92' to 2.4MMBD in 99'.
overall were up from importing 45% before the gulf war to 54% now.

during the clinton terms our domestic production decreased while our imports have increased. uhmmm...
our daily consumption has increased by about 3MMBD during clintons term.

i'd be willing to bet that sales of SUV, big V8's and the like rose sharply during clintons TERMS. 8 YEARS TO GET SOMETHING DONE.

now i ask you a simple question ryan, what did clinton do to discourage oil consumption and import usage?

it doesnt matter who's in office now does it ryan, take your blinders off bro.

Ryan you have to dig, you cant just scratch.<LMAO>

next!

 

[danielson]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?

which im pretty sure would have been instigated by the clinton administration (i doubt daddy bush would have)

 

[spentagn]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?

which im pretty sure would have been instigated by the clinton administration (i doubt daddy bush would have)

What about sponge's favorite stat, that murders and ice cream sales are positively correlated?

 

[danielson]

What about sponge's favorite stat, that murders and ice cream sales are positively correlated?

come on though.....they strt pumping out dioxins etc and the people near the plant start getting all types of respiratory diseases (more than the norm)....whats the likely cause?

even if he didnt, he still relaxed industrial laws

 

[spongebob]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?

which im pretty sure would have been instigated by the clinton administration (i doubt daddy bush would have)

hey im not defending bush here, just making sure were clear on the fact that it doesnt matter who's in office. read ryans post.

 

[danielson]

hey im not defending bush here, just making sure were clear on the fact that it doesnt matter who's in office. read ryans post.

sorry....

i read too much into the term 'oilmen'

my bad

 

[spentagn]

come on though.....they strt pumping out dioxins etc and the people near the plant start getting all types of respiratory diseases (more than the norm)....whats the likely cause?

even if he didnt, he still relaxed industrial laws

True. But the Texas economy also flourished. Though I'm sure some will say this is more due to NAFTA than anything. Those people would be the ones who've missed the Mexican trucks blocking International bridges out of protest to Texas Department of Transportation inspections of their trucks. And yes, those do include emission standards.

 

[spongebob]

come on though.....they strt pumping out dioxins etc and the people near the plant start getting all types of respiratory diseases (more than the norm)....whats the likely cause?

even if he didnt, he still relaxed industrial laws

i have to go to work right now(just happens to be at one of these plants). but im gonna try to answer this statement in the morning. later.

although its not the point of this thread.

 

[danielson]

ok

bear in mind i have no statistical info to back this up

just a bbc report

 

[Code]

Sponge man, Ryan won't respond, and if he does it will likely be a political dance around the topic. He would likely respond by arguing over something semantic or distantly related to the topic.

No offence to Ryan, he's a smart, focused person. He's just a classic politician/lawyer, they like to hear themselves talk, but only about the things they like to talk about.

 

[gymnpoppa]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?

which im pretty sure would have been instigated by the clinton administration (i doubt daddy bush would have)

Yes he did relax the laws.....which pissed a few people off. And though I already posted this on another thread. There is a clear connection between bush, and his White House staff, with Enron. Which is now under investigation for influencing the energy plan formulated by Cheney, who was also a stockholder in Enron until recently.

Also, Bush designated Texas Utilities (TXU) for over 660 mil in tax repealed rebates. They are/were not in dire straits, or in danger of going bankrupt. In fact, they haven't laid off people either. that's my problem with his stimulus package......what/how will that welfare check stimulate the economy? And ignore the hospitality industry which suffered HUGE losses, and layoffs? Refusing to help the ones who need it, and sucking up to pocketstuffing lobbyists makes him look week. And most politicians are afraid to speak up, for fear of being called (unfairly) unpatriotic. He should stand up, and be a leader by doing the right thing.

 

[danielson]

see similar things have been happening here

when the 'lets lock em up with no evidence' bill was trying to be passed, a few people tried to speak up about and were immeadiatly set upon by people as un-realistic, not wanting to stamp out terrorism

patriotism shouldnt be a tool by which people can pass though which ever laws they want and supress any that speak against it, that sounds like what your talking about


thankfully when the bill was passed infront of he house iof lords for review they rejected it

 

[gymnpoppa]

see similar things have been happening here

when the 'lets lock em up with no evidence' bill was trying to be passed, a few people tried to speak up about and were immeadiatly set upon by people as un-realistic, not wanting to stamp out terrorism

patriotism shouldnt be a tool by which people can pass though which ever laws they want and supress any that speak against it, that sounds like what your talking about


thankfully when the bill was passed infront of he house iof lords for review they rejected it

The majority of people don't know half the things going on in politics, only what they read. They vote, and watch the news....most hardly ever watch an objective news outlet.

Seems as though the government totally took advantage of the shock people were in, and rammed shit in their face, in the name of patriotism, and it really doesn't have a damn thing to do with that.

 

[danielson]

its what pissed me off the most about sep-11 (aside from the loss of life)

racists tried to make use of it, straight ftre the event you could see them trying to stir up trouble and in some cases killing indiscriminantly

politicians tried to make use of it by passing laws which remind me of more facist times, and doing things they knew wouldn;t get media attention due to the loss of life (like dissolving a company with no notification which runs our railways)

muslims tried to make use of it to wither rally support for the extremists or blame the whole thing on israel (i CANNOT believe how many of my friends have odd theories like this)

Israel tried to use it as an excuse to move in its troops to the gaza area

pakistan used it as an excuse to get its sanctions lifted

turkey used it for money

russia used it to get condemnation of its heavy handedness in chechnya stopped and actually get approval






and it all pissed me off a little

 

[spongebob]

Yes he did relax the laws.....which pissed a few people off. And though I already posted this on another thread. There is a clear connection between bush, and his White House staff, with Enron. Which is now under investigation for influencing the energy plan formulated by Cheney, who was also a stockholder in Enron until recently.

i agree with you gym, but my point with this thread is to show that it didnt matter who was in office. both clinton and bush(sr. or jr.) have not done anything to reduce consumption or dependency. thats all.

 

[gymnpoppa]

i agree with you gym, but my point with this thread is to show that it didnt matter who was in office. both clinton and bush(sr. or jr.) have not done anything to reduce consumption or dependency. thats all.

They all SUCK, in those regards. I agree 100%.

I wish I'd had this board to vent about Clinton, he sucked, but at different things. Bottom line, they all sucked, and the system promotes the ineptness of whoever is in office. Sellouts.

No integrity, or honesty, anymore.

 

[spongebob]

No integrity, or honesty, anymore.

i wonder if it was ever there, my dad always taught me and my brothers that all politicians were crooked liars. he's in his sixties.

 

[gymnpoppa]

i wonder if it was ever there, my dad always taught me and my brothers that all politicians were crooked liars. he's in his sixties.

We probably can't do much to change them, or the system.

That's the argument you'll get from most people. That's how it's always been, or if you think we're bad, look at such and such.

Which.........ahhh nevermind......I'm going to the gym in a few....be back later.......see if anything interesting is going to be up.....

what you putting up for debate today?

 

[spongebob]

what you putting up for debate today?

actually i just got home from work and im about to hit the hay.

but i was thing of looking into what you and danielson were talking about on the relaxed pollution laws in tx.

not very exciting but challenging i think. i work in the oil industry so i need to learn it anyway.

 

[RyanH]

You argument that Bush and Cheney aren't oilmen is so silly that I'm very inclined not to address it. But, as always, I enjoy putting right-wing extremist, unthought-out propaganda in its place---down in the trenches where the "vast right wing" conspiracy hangs-out. Thus, I will indulge.

I pulled a very interesting, informative argument from USA Today's archives to prove my point. Note this article is not in the op-ed section, thus I'm presenting FACTS as always.

We all know that RyanH ONLY SPECIALIZES IN FACTS!!! I leave conjecture to the masses.

Further, If you would like a more esteemed newspaper to support my arguments, I will gladly go the New York Times or Washington Post archives as well. They also have an abundance of articles on Bush's connections to BIGOIL.

At any rate, SpongeBob here's your proof. Oh, and P.S. next time do your homework.......A good student is always informed. So please don't disappoint us again. We know you can do it. If you need help on your research skills I will gladly be of assistance

RYAN.

WASHINGTON (AP) - While locked in a string of disputes with the Clinton administration, the oil industry has pumped more than $1.5 million into George W. Bush's campaign. Oil companies will be seeking Bush's help on a range of issues, should he be elected president.

Recent high gasoline prices have brought energy policy into the campaign as Democratic presidential contender and Vice President Al Gore tries to tar Bush, the Republican governor of Texas, as a pawn of Big Oil. Bush, himself a former oilman from Midland, Texas, says it isn't so.

But across a range of issues - from drilling in an Alaskan wildlife refuge to new rules setting the price of oil taken from federal land to whether to pursue a controversial international agreement on climate control - oil company executives believe Bush and the people he would appoint to key posts will be more receptive to their point of view than President Clinton's team.

In fact, the industry's relationship with the Clinton administration - and Gore himself - has often bordered on hostile. The industry has contributed less than $100,000 to Gore's campaign. Last week, Gore said the nation was ''vulnerable to big oil interests trampling on the public interest.''

The top priority of oil lobbyists for years has been to open the coastal strip of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in northern Alaska to drilling. The government says 10 billion barrels of oil likely could be pumped from beneath the coastal plain, which environmentalists view as an ecological sanctuary.

Congress once approved such drilling, but Clinton blocked it. Gore has promised, ''I will never agree to oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife, never.''

But Bush views drilling there as a cornerstone of his goal to reduce America's reliance on foreign oil. ''We need to increase domestic exploration,'' said Bush campaign spokesman Dan Bartlett.

While drilling in the Arctic refuge would be the biggest plum the oil companies could expect from a Bush administration, the industry would likely prevail on other controversial issues.

The Kyoto Accord:

Environmentalists say U.S. acceptance of the agreement, which requires reductions of heat-trapping ''greenhouse'' gases to address global warming, would be dead if Bush becomes president. Bush has called it ''ineffective'' and unfair and would not seek its ratification.

Oil companies have led the fight against the agreement, which Gore was instrumental in crafting at a meeting in Japan more than two years ago. Should the pact be ratified, it would require reductions in carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels, principally oil and coal.

Sulfur in gasoline:

For months, oil company lobbyists have argued unsuccessfully with the Environmental Protection Agency over the reduction of sulfur in gasoline and diesel fuel. The EPA has sided with the auto industry and environmentalists and called for almost eliminating sulfur in these fuels as part of the next installment of federal rules to curtail pollution from cars and trucks.

The EPA wants sulfur cut to 30 parts per million in gasoline and 15 parts per million in diesel, more than a 95% reduction. The oil companies say such reductions may not be feasible and are too costly. They have offered a cut to 50 parts per million - a level EPA Administrator Carol Browner has insisted would not do the job.

On such regulations Bush ''wants to strike the appropriate balance'' and be assured ''they are based on the most sound and available science,'' said Bartlett. Bush has said he wants to reduce the sulfur in motor fuels, though Bartlett said he didn't know by how much.

Valuing the government's oil:

The industry also has been at loggerheads with the administration over royalty payments to the government for oil taken from federal land. Over strong objections from the industry and oil-state lawmakers, led by Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, the Interior Department is changing the way it values the oil, contending the government has been cheated out of millions of dollars over the years.

Oil company supporters in Congress, who view the change as a new tax on the industry, have been trying to postpone the new rules until after the election, confident Bush would be more receptive to industry interests. Bush has not addressed the issue.

Oil exploration:

Apart from the Arctic refuge, the industry believes Bush also might be more receptive than Clinton has been to developing oil and gas reserves on federal land in mountain areas of the West and in some offshore areas. The Interior Department has put many of those reserves off limits.

Like Gore, Bush has said he wants to continue the moratorium that generally bars exploration and drilling in U.S. coastal waters outside of the central and western Gulf of Mexico.

But while Gore has promised a blanket ban on drilling off California on a number of existing oil leases, Bush has reserved judgment. Bartlett said he would review them on a case-by-case basis.

 

[musclebrains]

Re: Re: Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

You argument that Bush and Cheney aren't oilmen is so silly that I'm very inclined not to address it.

Exactly my reaction when I read that. One frequent tactic of the right, from Newt's school, is to just make blanket claims repeatedly, so that the left "exhausts" itself researching and re-researching the same issue.

Typically, each time the claim is refuted, they argue that you misunderstood their meaning in the first place or they just deny it, wait two days...and make the same claim again. Newt was very clear in his celebrated training course that the truth wasn't as important as a claim that excited people's convictions. Repeated often enough, it acquires the status of "truth."

 

[Test boy]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?


I sincerely hope that you don't believe that crap do you???

 

[danielson]

what about bush's relaxation on emmission laws in the state of texas while he was governor their and the subsequent increase in lung related disease?


I sincerely hope that you don't believe that crap do you???

i wont totally believe it till i read some statistics on it or see some actual evuidence

but this shit was on the BBC so im inclined to believe it. even if the lung related dideases hadnt increased he STILL relaxed emmision laws which other companies in the US were upholding. they must have bee in place for a reason.

 

[Test boy]

i wont totally believe it till i read some statistics on it or see some actual evuidence

but this shit was on the BBC so im inclined to believe it. even if the lung related dideases hadnt increased he STILL relaxed emmision laws which other companies in the US were upholding. they must have bee in place for a reason.

I will never forget passing an emissions test with flying colors until the Check Engine came on. They flunked it for that reason. I spent over $400 getting new parts installed then got failed miserably for way excessive emissions. Getting it "fixed" increased my emissions over 10 fold. I had to get the State Emissions Board involved to get the problem resolved. Their rep told me the emissions program is total bullshit.

It sure was to me.

 

[Code]

Emissions red tape is far worse in California.

In fact, due to new standards, all of the 2 stroke scooters (popular in San Francisco) have to get extensive exhaust work.

I know this because I bought a 2 stroke motorcycle from a buddy and I had to register it in Utah to get it licensed and street legal.

The irony of it is that I almost never ride the thing. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[danielson]

I will never forget passing an emissions test with flying colors until the Check Engine came on. They flunked it for that reason. I spent over $400 getting new parts installed then got failed miserably for way excessive emissions. Getting it "fixed" increased my emissions over 10 fold. I had to get the State Emissions Board involved to get the problem resolved. Their rep told me the emissions program is total bullshit.

It sure was to me.

ok but then again thats a car engine.

emmisions are bascially CO2, CO, sulphur-oxides, nitrous oxides and unburnt petrol/hydrocarbons and a few other minor bits and bobs.




an industrial plant will churn out all kinds of cancer causing chemicals, dioxins all kinds of other shit . a sulphur plant if unregulated can cause a whole lot of acid rain. its a whole different ball game in terms of emmisons and standards

 

[Test boy]

ok but then again thats a car engine.

emmisions are bascially CO2, CO, sulphur-oxides, nitrous oxides and unburnt petrol/hydrocarbons and a few other minor bits and bobs.




an industrial plant will churn out all kinds of cancer causing chemicals, dioxins all kinds of other shit . a sulphur plant if unregulated can cause a whole lot of acid rain. its a whole different ball game in terms of emmisons and standards

A healthy environment is of vital importance. I've had several bad experiences with "environmentalists" and think both sides are nuts. I knew an E.P.A. biologist. Each guy got his own electron microscope because they refused to share. I also know a guy who got sued by a Washinton environmentalist group because his emissions equipment had manufacturing delays. His company was the only one that did the legal paperwork and that is what caused the lawsuit. The companies that ignored all the regulations got off scott free. He relocated it to Mexico and had to have heart surgery shortly after counter sueing...which he won. Law suits are very bad on the heart.

We need to compromise on environmental issues. Wildlife does not care if there is an oil derrick within eye sight. I've seen huge herds grazing within yards of oil derricks.

 

[danielson]

A healthy environment is of vital importance. I've had several bad experiences with "environmentalists" and think both sides are nuts. I knew an E.P.A. biologist. Each guy got his own electron microscope because they refused to share. I also know a guy who got sued by a Washinton environmentalist group because his emissions equipment had manufacturing delays. His company was the only one that did the legal paperwork and that is what caused the lawsuit. The companies that ignored all the regulations got off scott free. He relocated it to Mexico and had to have heart surgery shortly after counter sueing...which he won. Law suits are very bad on the heart.

We need to compromise on environmental issues. Wildlife does not care if there is an oil derrick within eye sight. I've seen huge herds grazing within yards of oil derricks.

ok fair enough. but wildlife might care if there is a leakage by the oil derrick causing their food supply to be posioned

but yes their has to be some compromise

however in this case the factyories etc had spent YEARS operating under stringent emissions laws and were making profit. bush relaxed these laws so they could make more profit and in the process allowed higher levels of extremely dangerous compunds to be released into the atmosphere

 

[spongebob]

Re: Re: Re: Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

Exactly my reaction when I read that. One frequent tactic of the right, from Newt's school, is to just make blanket claims repeatedly, so that the left "exhausts" itself researching and re-researching the same issue.

when you read what? ive already said im not defending bush(sr. or jr.). but i guess that wasnt noticed. ryanh mis interpreted the point of this thread.

Typically, each time the claim is refuted, they argue that you misunderstood their meaning in the first place or they just deny it, wait two days...and make the same claim again. Newt was very clear in his celebrated training course that the truth wasn't as important as a claim that excited people's convictions. Repeated often enough, it acquires the status of "truth."

and the left doesnt do this, LOL

 

[the nature boy]

Re: Re: Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

You argument that Bush and Cheney aren't oilmen is so silly that I'm very inclined not to address it. But, as always, I enjoy putting right-wing extremist, unthought-out propaganda in its place---down in the trenches where the "vast right wing" conspiracy hangs-out. Thus, I will indulge.

I pulled a very interesting, informative argument from USA Today's archives to prove my point. Note this article is not in the op-ed section, thus I'm presenting FACTS as always.

We all know that RyanH ONLY SPECIALIZES IN FACTS!!! I leave conjecture to the masses.

Further, If you would like a more esteemed newspaper to support my arguments, I will gladly go the New York Times or Washington Post archives as well. They also have an abundance of articles on Bush's connections to BIGOIL.

At any rate, SpongeBob here's your proof. Oh, and P.S. next time do your homework.......A good student is always informed. So please don't disappoint us again. We know you can do it. If you need help on your research skills I will gladly be of assistance

RYAN.

I haven't seen such shameless self touting and bravado since I watched professional wrestling the other night. What a shit talker!

 

[spongebob]

Re: Re: Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

just as Code predicted. ryan, im surprised you misinterpreted my post so bad. your never ending self-rightousness has clouded your comprehension skills on this one. therefore any points you make are moot, because they do not even address the questions.

ive stated that they are in the oil industry(and technically that could be argued). i am not arguing that here. your original post which i qouted was that wait until a democrat gets into office. as if something would change, regarding our consumption and dependency.

i clearly showed you the numbers and stated MY(not the USA Today's opinion) opinion that it doesnt matter who's in office. now does it?

your, oh im sorry the USA Today's rant does nonthing to answer my questions i asked you.

again, (pretend im talking real slow here), ryanh, what did clinton do to reduce the nations oil CONSUMPTION and DEPENDENCY on PERSAIN GLUF [i capped that because it may very well be our source of trouble over there and the numbers show that it increased during the clinton term(s)]. a full 8 years.

please stick to the topic, i know its hard. and i dont fall for the ranting and raving off topic stuff.

ryan, if there was anybody who was ever in a box, its you. its proven by your CONSTANT left wing views. <maybe the word constant will give him a hint as to why>

i responded to the off topic stuff here just for the hell of it.

p.s. look for my post on the kyoto treaty.

You argument that Bush and Cheney aren't oilmen is so silly that I'm very inclined not to address it. But, as always, I enjoy putting right-wing extremist, unthought-out propaganda in its place---down in the trenches where the "vast right wing" conspiracy hangs-out. Thus, I will indulge.

I pulled a very interesting, informative argument from USA Today's archives to prove my point. Note this article is not in the op-ed section, thus I'm presenting FACTS as always.

i'll be honest, im not sure how that works but if that came from USA Today, why does it say Washington AP?

Further, If you would like a more esteemed newspaper to support my arguments, I will gladly go the New York Times or Washington Post archives as well. They also have an abundance of articles on Bush's connections to BIGOIL.

ryanh do you have any thoughts of your own, instead of pulling up a newspaper article. let the paper do the thinking for you. try putting some facts like statistics together and present them with YOUR opinion please.

WASHINGTON (AP) - While locked in a string of disputes with the Clinton administration, the oil industry has pumped more than $1.5 million into George W. Bush's campaign. Oil companies will be seeking Bush's help on a range of issues, should he be elected president.

Recent high gasoline prices have brought energy policy into the campaign as Democratic presidential contender and Vice President Al Gore tries to tar Bush, the Republican governor of Texas, as a pawn of Big Oil. Bush, himself a former oilman from Midland, Texas, says it isn't so.

he said "former", hahahaha

But across a range of issues - from drilling in an Alaskan wildlife refuge to new rules setting the price of oil taken from federal land to whether to pursue a controversial international agreement on climate control - oil company executives believe Bush and the people he would appoint to key posts will be more receptive to their point of view than President Clinton's team.

The top priority of oil lobbyists for years has been to open the coastal strip of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in northern Alaska to drilling. The government says 10 billion barrels of oil likely could be pumped from beneath the coastal plain, which environmentalists view as an ecological sanctuary.

Congress once approved such drilling, but Clinton blocked it. Gore has promised, ''I will never agree to oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife, never.''

But Bush views drilling there as a cornerstone of his goal to reduce America's reliance on foreign oil. ''We need to increase domestic exploration,'' said Bush campaign spokesman Dan Bartlett.

see, clinton didnt want to reduce our foriegn oil dependency. that was one of my main points BTW.

The Kyoto Accord:

re-read my post, it says nonthing of environmental issues. but i will post something on it.

 

[spongebob]

Re: Re: Re: Ryan and his propaganda machine needs oiling.........

I haven't seen such shameless self touting and bravado since I watched professional wrestling the other night. What a shit talker!

he practices on here, its manditory for a lawyer/politician.

 

[spongebob]

victory by default.

 

[musclebrains]

Watch 'em revise themselves...Just like I predicted in the post above.

Watch 'em attack the source -- like the AP doesn't file stories for USA today.

Watch 'em demand "proof" and then, when they are given facts (which they insist upon) from an objective source, watch 'em insist that RyanH can't think for himself.

Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is, watch 'em claim, "hey, I wudn't saying the Repugs are any better than the Demons."

You know, in any real debate, your asses would be thrown out in about 20 seconds.

 

[spongebob]

Watch 'em revise themselves...Just like I predicted in the post above.

you still dont understand uh?

Watch 'em attack the source -- like the AP doesn't file stories for USA today.

i clearly(but i guess english is not clear enough) stated that i didnt understand how that worked, if the AP did that. but again your rush to argue clouded your comprehension.

Watch 'em demand "proof" and then, when they are given facts (which they insist upon) from an objective source, watch 'em insist that RyanH can't think for himself.

you call a article, proof, proof of what?LOL im asking what clinton did?

Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is, watch 'em claim, "hey, I wudn't saying the Repugs are any better than the Demons."

your really starting to scare me now, where did i attack clinton, by asking ryan to tell me what he did?LOL


You know, in any real debate, your asses would be thrown out in about 20 seconds.

thrown out of what in 20 seconds? LOL, maybe in a real debate you would address the person directly. who are you talking to with this post?

you see, MB, you automatically make false assumptions. i dont like bush either, i was just pointing out ryans mistake. he said democrats would change things. look at the numbers MB, nonthing changed under clinton. sure you can out write me, but you haven't changed the facts i put up. you just have to argue dont you.

your hatred for bush has clouded your comprehension as well. re-read my original post up top, then tell me exactly where i was defending bush.

let me clearly state it AGAIN. look at the numbers and tell me where clinton changed our consumption and dependency on oil.

 

[spongebob]

You know, in any real debate, your asses would be thrown out in about 20 seconds.

LMAO,dont you mean "ass", what. do they have debate police there?

self-rightousness at an all time high. from you, im surprised.

oh yes, the great debaters, see who can out spin the other one.

 

[Test boy]

I'm disappointed that musclebrains has previously touted himself as a moderate that appreciated the strengths of both left and right wing viewpoints. It has become quite clear to me that he is about as left wing as RyanH.

I'm also disappointed that I had not previously figured this out. There were sufficient signs for me to see the writing on the wall.

 

[spongebob]

I'm disappointed that musclebrains has previously touted himself as a moderate that appreciated the strengths of both left and right wing viewpoints. It has become quite clear to me that he is about as left wing as RyanH.

I'm also disappointed that I had not previously figured this out. There were sufficient signs for me to see the writing on the wall.

you may be wrong on this one. he just dont like bush.

 

[musclebrains]

I am not invested in this argument. I am commenting on the structure of it and, yeah, sponge, whatever Ryan says, you just automatically counter without thought for the consistency of your own arguments.

I've seen this repeatedly. So, I am commenting on the basic history of argumentation. I learned the hard way that it is pointless to get in serious political discussions here for the reasons I have already mentioned.

And while I doubt Ryan is any lefter or righter or queerer than I am, I can assure you he is about 10,000 times more patient. He usually stays to the content, even when you attack his basic capacities. (Look at the title of this thread -- an immediate claim that he's engaging in a kind of lie whereas you hold the truth.)

 

[musclebrains]

I'm disappointed that musclebrains has previously touted himself as a moderate that appreciated the strengths of both left and right wing viewpoints. It has become quite clear to me that he is about as left wing as RyanH.

I'm also disappointed that I had not previously figured this out. There were sufficient signs for me to see the writing on the wall.

Oh, come on........I have never touted myself as any kind of political anything. I believe the dialogue between the right and the left is essential and I believe each represents different valuation of authentic democratic principles.

My issue is with the structure of argument and the way people on the left are routinely bashed here in personal ways. I've never seen anyone on the left start polls to ban people or strip them of their moderator status for their opinions.

This is a good example of it in diluted fashion. I state my impressions of the way things are argued here and suddenly I hate Bush and have misrepresented myself.

 

[spentagn]

My issue is with the structure of argument and the way people on the left are routinely bashed here in personal ways. I've never seen anyone on the left start polls to ban people or strip them of their moderator status for their opinions.

Chesty

 

[musclebrains]

Chesty

Chesty started that poll HIMSELF.

 

[spentagn]

Chesty started that poll HIMSELF.

True, but only after a lot of posters bitching about him. I really didn't mean to get caught up in this thread, I'm gonna go back to studying for finals.

 

[musclebrains]

True, but only after a lot of posters bitching about him. I really didn't mean to get caught up in this thread, I'm gonna go back to studying for finals.

LOL...good luck with your finals.

 

[spongebob]

I am not invested in this argument. I am commenting on the structure of it and, yeah, sponge, whatever Ryan says, you just automatically counter without thought for the consistency of your own arguments.

I've seen this repeatedly. So, I am commenting on the basic history of argumentation. I learned the hard way that it is pointless to get in serious political discussions here for the reasons I have already mentioned.

And while I doubt Ryan is any lefter or righter or queerer than I am, I can assure you he is about 10,000 times more patient. He usually stays to the content, even when you attack his basic capacities. (Look at the title of this thread -- an immediate claim that he's engaging in a kind of lie whereas you hold the truth.)

i know your an intelligent person and know how to debate rather well, that is not my intent. i have not studied how to debate, nor do i care too.

let me explain it. ryan continually makes comments that are niether factually based nor anything but propaganda. my purpose of this thread was ask ryan to have some accountability with his statements.

MY MAIN POINT, was that ryan said if democrats were in office things would be different, well i showed with numbers that htey were not different under clinton.

well in the name of great debate, what does he do, pull a article off the net, and uses that as his arguement. is that debating, if so, like i said then i dont care to debate.

his article did nonthing to answer my questions, in fact it point out that clinton didnt want to reduce our persain gulf sources(by not drilling for domestic oil) of course there's another side to that coin i know. it mentions the kyoto treaty, which does absolutely nonthing to disparage oil consumption or importation.

he and to some extent you turned this into an arguement of semantics and a lesson on how to debate.(which i'll admit i wasnt on the high school debate team) i just want him to answer the questions.

again im confused about your statements, i dont think i countered with anything against his post. i guess your looking at it strictly from a debate style perspective. this is an arguement over facts. now look at my first post and tell me where i am not stating facts.

you said he usually stays to content, please. look at my first post again, the content is basically, does it matter who's in office or not and what has clinton done. he comes back with an article mentioning environmental issues.

as far as my title, please, you know that trick, im sure you use alot in your writing, right.

not to mention, ryan uses it almost daily. and im not the only one who's noticed it.

in the end, i believe ryan makes grandiose, self-rightous statements on this board. im just looking to see if there true or not.

no offense to you MB.

 

[spongebob]

p.s. im not here to debate, i dont have to validate myself or my intellect. i just like facts.

 

[gymnpoppa]

I see where spongebob was going with this, and I see what MB is commenting on.........sponge you're calling Ryanh on his leftist ideology, and his dedication to Clinton's admin. Which makes you come across as one of the right wing ( "patriots") board members who come at him in similiar ways.

MB was commenting on that, the continued personal attacks on RyanH.

It is/was ridiculous how the right wingers (blind patriots) will resort to personal attacks against those who's opinions don't jive with theirs. emotional attacks.

 

[spongebob]

This is a good example of it in diluted fashion. I state my impressions of the way things are argued here and suddenly I hate Bush and have misrepresented myself.

and you haven't made any assumptions yourself?

 

[RyanH]

And Spongebob, I presented you with evidence that "things" would be different if Pres. Clinton were still in office. For instance, any prospect of the Artic Wildlife becoming an oil site would be off the table, and we wouldn't have a president touting tax relief for the oil industry, as Bush had done.

There are many differences between Republicans and Democrats. Of course, there are similarities...ie. they take money from special interest. But, the culpability of the special interests they receive money from is far different.

 

[danielson]

I see where spongebob was going with this, and I see what MB is commenting on.........sponge you're calling Ryanh on his leftist ideology, and his dedication to Clinton's admin. Which makes you come across as one of the right wing ( "patriots") board members who come at him in similiar ways.

MB was commenting on that, the continued personal attacks on RyanH.

It is/was ridiculous how the right wingers (blind patriots) will resort to personal attacks against those who's opinions don't jive with theirs. emotional attacks.

yeah ive noticed it a lot too. i find it very funny to be honest

 

[musclebrains]

Sponge, don't get all clomid-y on me. YOu can totally reject what I said and it's fine.

 

[RyanH]

As Senator Clinton once said so correctly ............."It's that vast right wing conspiracy" out to get us.

 

[spongebob]

I see where spongebob was going with this, and I see what MB is commenting on.........sponge you're calling Ryanh on his leftist ideology, and his dedication to Clinton's admin. Which makes you come across as one of the right wing ( "patriots") board members who come at him in similiar ways.

MB was commenting on that, the continued personal attacks on RyanH.

It is/was ridiculous how the right wingers (blind patriots) will resort to personal attacks against those who's opinions don't jive with theirs. emotional attacks.

you know im no right winger gym.

as for as attacking ryan, if he is gonna continually make statements that grandiose and self-rightousness in nature then yes, i am gonna attack. like i said i dont give a shit who you are, who you voted for, what wing you live in, whether your dem or rep. i want him to have accountability with his statements.

most everyone on this board have the same mentality if you ask me, just different facades.

 

[spongebob]

And Spongebob, I presented you with evidence that "things" would be different if Pres. Clinton were still in office. For instance, any prospect of the Artic Wildlife becoming an oil site would be off the table, and we wouldn't have a president touting tax relief for the oil industry, as Bush had done.

again your arguement is environmental in nature, by leaving the artic wildlife alone does nonthing at all to curb consumption or dependency does it. your not addressing the true qustions in thier content.

There are many differences between Republicans and Democrats. Of course, there are similarities...ie. they take money from special interest. But, the culpability of the special interests they receive money from is far different.

i agree

 

[gymnpoppa]

I wasn't implying that you were......I just didn't write it....figured you knew I knew that.....I said what you were doing, and it had nothing to do with Ryan being a leftist, just the facts......


like danielson said, I thought it was funny, Ryan's comments were, and so were yours.

 

[spongebob]

Sponge, don't get all clomid-y on me. YOu can totally reject what I said and it's fine.

MB, i dont reject what you say, i just disagree with its relivency here, thats all.

 

[spongebob]

And Spongebob, I presented you with evidence that "things" would be different if Pres. Clinton were still in office.

and the kyoto treaty also does nonthing to decrease consumption and dependency, which were in your original post i qouted at the top.

 

[musclebrains]

MB, i dont reject what you say, i just disagree with its relivency here, thats all.

Same difference. Blow it off, if it suits you.

 

[spongebob]

I wasn't implying that you were......I just didn't write it....figured you knew I knew that.....

gym i had to write, or else people will assume i am on the right.

 

[spongebob]

1. what did clinton do to reduce persain gulf oil sources(seeing as how that may be contributing to our problems)

ie. as he imported more oil from other sources, has he increased production in the US?

2. what has clinton done to reduce oil dependency?

ie. has he back the use of alternate fuel sources(coal, nuclear power, hydro-power)

ie. again, has he discouraged in anyway the consumption of the 1000's of oil by-products. or has he discouraged the sale of SUV's and the like. i bet his entourage was littered with those.

ok, i didnt attack him, we all clear now.

 

[gymnpoppa]

gym i had to write, or else people will assume i am on the right.

They damn sure will, in fact, a comment either way will usually draw a unanimous conclusion that you're that, or a communist. I still wonder how communist became a democrat? But then again, I consider who it's coming from, and I realize that it's not worth a second thought.....guess I'll watch King of the Hill.....if I don't go out for a bit......did you train today? I know you usually work at nite right? At least it's night here when you mention you're about to go to work.

 

[spongebob]

gym, if your pm alert isnt gonna work, then check them every so often.

 

[gymnpoppa]

gym, if your pm alert isnt gonna work, then check them every so often.

K....

 

[spongebob]

MB, these two statements were made by you. are they contadictory?

"Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is, watch 'em claim, "hey, I wudn't saying the Repugs are any better than the Demons.""

"This is a good example of it in diluted fashion. I state my impressions of the way things are argued here and suddenly I hate Bush and have misrepresented myself."

 

[spentagn]

MB, these two statements were made by you. are they contadictory?

"Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is, watch 'em claim, "hey, I wudn't saying the Repugs are any better than the Demons.""

"This is a good example of it in diluted fashion. I state my impressions of the way things are argued here and suddenly I hate Bush and have misrepresented myself."

Maybe he doesn't hate whores, but I see the point.

 

[musclebrains]

No, they're not contradictory since the criticism is of the structure of argumentation, not whether I have positive feelings for George Bush. In the first statement, I'm talking in terms of the argument, not in terms of my personal feelings. You're completely ignoring the last part of the second statement about self-representation.

In any case, I already told you I don't care if you dismiss what I have to say. I stand by my general crticism that argument in many of these threads becomes needlessly ad hominem. You've called Ryan all kinds of names -- grandiose, self-righteous, lacking any original thought, etc. -- and I find that hard to stomach. The point of my post was to observe that when people don't behave in the poltically correct way prevailing here, they become less of a person. (I "misrepresented" myself...by defending Ryan. I am a demon by association.)

I am simply not interested in getting into more debates here in which people are called names and I regret any way I have contributed to that in the past.

 

[spongebob]

No, they're not contradictory since the criticism is of the structure of argumentation, not whether I have positive feelings for George Bush. In the first statement, I'm talking in terms of the argument, not in terms of my personal feelings.

it looks to me that YOU called bush a whore, where was it proven he is? show me. YOU chose the word whore.

"Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is "

You've called Ryan all kinds of names -- grandiose, self-righteous, lacking any original thought, etc. -- and I find that hard to stomach.

stevie wonder could see how self-righteous ryan is.

as far as your arguement on the structure of the arguement, have you seen the latest "debate" thread from strongchick? the enron/bush thread. look at ryans arguements and tell me if he hasnt broken your rules on debating? i will point them out ofcourse.

 

[RyanH]

No, they're not contradictory since the criticism is of the structure of argumentation, not whether I have positive feelings for George Bush. In the first statement, I'm talking in terms of the argument, not in terms of my personal feelings.

it looks to me that YOU called bush a whore, where was it proven he is? show me. YOU chose the word whore.

"Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is "

You've called Ryan all kinds of names -- grandiose, self-righteous, lacking any original thought, etc. -- and I find that hard to stomach.

stevie wonder could see how self-rightous ryan is.

as far as your arguement on the structure of the arguement, have you seen the latest "debate" thread from strongchick? the enron/bush thread. look at ryans arguements and tell me if he hasnt broken your rules on debating? i will point them out ofcourse.

I don't remember ever giving anyone permission to debate me on this board.....

 

[spongebob]

I don't remember ever giving anyone permission to debate me on this board.....

i'll give you one thing ryan, at times you have a sense of humor, and that above all else outwieghs your errorous ways. LOL.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

I don't remember ever giving anyone permission to debate me on this board.....

You fucker...

 

[RyanH]

You fucker...

Yeah, that was pretty clever, eh?

 

[spongebob]

I am simply not interested in getting into more debates here in which people are called names and I regret any way I have contributed to that in the past.

now your getting all clomid-y on me MB.

 

[musclebrains]

No, they're not contradictory since the criticism is of the structure of argumentation, not whether I have positive feelings for George Bush. In the first statement, I'm talking in terms of the argument, not in terms of my personal feelings.

it looks to me that YOU called bush a whore, where was it proven he is? show me. YOU chose the word whore.

"Watch 'em routinely attack Clinton and, when Bush is revealed to be the whore he is "

You've called Ryan all kinds of names -- grandiose, self-righteous, lacking any original thought, etc. -- and I find that hard to stomach.

stevie wonder could see how self-righteous ryan is.

as far as your arguement on the structure of the arguement, have you seen the latest "debate" thread from strongchick? the enron/bush thread. look at ryans arguements and tell me if he hasnt broken your rules on debating? i will point them out ofcourse.

It is hardly worthwhile to address my statements by repeating your arguments. I already know them. I'm not buying them.
What do you want?

 

[spongebob]

What do you want?

nonthing. and you?

 

[spongebob]

MB, let me put it to you like this.

i asked two simple questions, i think you know what they are, but they have yet to be answered. now with all your knowledge tell me why?

 

[musclebrains]

MB, let me put it to you like this.

i asked two simple questions, i think you know what they are, but they have yet to be answered. now with all your knowledge tell me why?

In all honesty, Sponge, I don't even remember what this damn thread is about. Kiss me.

 

[spongebob]

In all honesty, Sponge, I don't even remember what this damn thread is about. Kiss me.

well then im done, and im gonna post a thread that shows how ryan has broken the "debate" rules.

there will be a few in there that would have his ass thrown out of any ligitimate debate. as always no hard feelings here.