Pulldowns w/ reverse grip, a better way to perform the movement!!!!!!!

[punch]

In the past year I have changed the grip on my pulldown routine to a reverse grip. Why, with a reverse grip you can pull the wieght back further. In essence the goal is to pull the elbows back as far as possible to stress the back. The more popular version is palms facing away and to the front. The problem with this method is your ROM is limited due to the bar hitting your chest before the lats are fully contracted.

It is a simple adjustment, yet can make a profound difference.

Lastly, an added benefit is the ability to handle more weight as the reverse grip is stronger than palms forward. Hope this helps. Peace.

 

[socal girl]

i don't believe that anything of what you just said is necessarily true.

1. if you can't get a full contraction with an overhand grip pullup/pulldown, the weight is probably too heavy.

2. reverse grip is not necessarily stronger than an overhand grip. this depends on the individual and the individual's training. (most people i know will be stronger with an overhand grip.)


with that said, it is always good to switch things up to prevent stagnation, and switching grips on pullups/pulldowns can be benificial. reverse grip will also recruit your biceps brachii to a greater degree, though i find they still get worked real well with overhand grips.

 

[punch]

Reverse grip is too back what dumbells are to chest. Dumbells provide a much greater ROM than barbell. Where the bar hits your chest in the case of Bbel presses is similar to the way the bar hits your chest with pulldowns using palms forward. By utilizing a reverse grip you are forced to bring the bar a tad bit lower which brings the elbows back further which forces a better contraction in the back. Remember the KEY to back movements is the contraction, secondly the stretch.

It goes without saying that too much weight will not allow proper form.

Lastly, bicep recruitment WILL play a role in ALL back movements too a degree. More experienced lifters know how to minimize this. It takes work and time. All told, both palms forward and reverse are excellent movements in and of themselves. However, w/me, if one excersize exhibits an added benefit over another, I will always choose the one which provides and edge. Hope this helps.

 

[Boulder257]

When doing back I usually fo lat pulldown, but I two sets, three different ways. Two sets behind the back, two sets with front grip to the chest, and two sets with reverse grip. This way I hit the muscle several times from different angles with different technique. I have found it is rather effective.

 

[socal girl]

reverse grip is not to back as dbs are to chest. if that was the case, then what would dbs for rows be? k, check this out. now you are saying that dbs provide a greater rom than a barbell. i'll take that. however rom has nothing to do with fully contracting a muscle.

also, i fail to see how reverse grip forces you to bring the bar lower on your chest. i can bring the bar as low on my chest as my strength will allow. if you are strong enough, you can bring the bar down to your sternum on a pullup with either a reverse or overhand grip (most people are not strong enough for this movement with either grip).

if you are able to bring the bar significantly lower on your chest with a reverse grip, that tells you that you are sufficiently strong on that grip as compared to an overhand grip.

with either grip, you are potentially able to bring the bar to the same spot on your chest, but neither will go past that spot (you can't pull the bar through your body!), so neither will have a greater range of motion.

that said, overhand vs reverse grip is mostly preference. it's obvious you prefer a reverse grip, but don't let that lead you to believe in wrong concepts. if your goal is to perform sternum pullups/chins, only then is there any real need to focus on pulling the bar to a lower spot on the chest, otherwise bringing the bar to the upper chest in the same spot every time is fine.

 

[Buddy_Christ]

i prefer overhand grip for the simple fact that it is harder. do some pullups overhand and underhand....doing them underhand is easier. i don't see anything wrong with doing them both ways though, but just myself personally, i'd do overhand pulldowns before underhand pulldowns.

while we're on the subject of pulldowns...anyone ever do them with a close grip? i feel that in my bis and lats big time. worked great for me, because i used to do back and arms on the same day. i found it to be a great way to nail both muscles at the same time.

 

[punch]

close grip is very good, insane stretch at the top. It is all a matter of preference. However, I defy ANYONE to tell me that you do NOT get a better contraction with a reverse grip. Do this experiment. Do both reverse grip and overhand grip. Try pulling your elbows back on both as far as possible. You will find that it is physically impossible to pull the elbows back further w/ overhand than under. Its simple physiology.



Crak, the close grip version is one of my favorites. I will on occasion add these to my routine.

 

[big4life]

The reverse grip on pulldowns is easier on your shoulders. My physical therapist had me go to them last year after my first shoulder surgery.(the second surgery was this October) As for rom I didn't notice an improvement, but I had also lost a lot of rom from my surgery.

As for close grip pulldowns, they are a part of my regular back workout, along with hammer strength lat pulldowns, db rows, and seated cable rows. I still can't do deads during my shoulder rehab.

 

[hardrock]

I also do curl grip pulldowns. Then I follow with pull ups with palms facing away.My back day routine:

close Curl grip pulldowns
palms away pull ups
curl grip BB rows
close grip cable rows
rear delt flys
dead lifts
db shrug

all excercises consist of 2 working sets, with the exception of db shrugs, in which case I do 3-4

been doing it for almost 2 moths now and I love it. Stronger every week pretty much. Can's wait to see what it brings me during this cycle.

 

[Tweakle]

I'm a lot stronger with a curl grip. I can barely do one chin overhand but can knock off reps with 45lbs+ curl stylee

 

[Singleton]

A supine grip finishes with the lats in a more fully contracted position.

With a wide grip, I seem to feel more external rotators action, though it's probably because I try to squeeze in my shoulderblades.

 

[AAP]

When I do standard pullups and pulldowns, I always feel it in my medial part of the upper back, the rhomboids area...

a reverse grip pulldown (with my hands about shoulder width apart) always hits the lower lat area (for me and the stretch I get there)

 

[JoBu]

I disagree...you may be able to lift more weight with an underhand grip but that doesn't imply a better contraction. Simple fact is that I can get the same ROM with traditional overhand...although with less weight. Try it...simulate the contraction sitting there at your computer. Pull your elbows back as far as you can...I can rotate my hands 180 degrees (palms up to palms down) in this position and don't have any additional range at either extreme. I totally agree that using both grips is a good idea...but disagree that one is superior to the other.

JoBu

close grip is very good, insane stretch at the top. It is all a matter of preference. However, I defy ANYONE to tell me that you do NOT get a better contraction with a reverse grip. Do this experiment. Do both reverse grip and overhand grip. Try pulling your elbows back on both as far as possible. You will find that it is physically impossible to pull the elbows back further w/ overhand than under. Its simple physiology.



Crak, the close grip version is one of my favorites. I will on occasion add these to my routine.

 

[Arnold'sApprentice]

too much bicep involvement with reverse grip chins..great bicep exercise..average back exercise

 

[coolcolj]

I've always chinned with a reverse grip, shoulder width as well

hits my back fine.

 

[Arnold'sApprentice]

An average exercise over time will obviously deliver results...just not as quickly as a better one.

To ONLY ever use a reverse grip is extremely ignorant IMO

 

[coolcolj]

I fail to see how the rotation of arms affects how the back acts

But a reverse grip puts the biceps in the strongest position, therefore you minimise the bicep as the weak link, makes sense to me.

 

[JoBu]

I think the point is that it indirectly affects the back by recruiting the biceps more or less. Think of doing bb curls with standard vs. overhand grip. You should be able to curl significantly more with standard grip. Now translate that to pull-ups...you'll be taking more of the resistance from the move on with your biceps using the underhand (standard curl) grip. Maybe that's what you were trying to get at.

JoBu

I fail to see how the rotation of arms affects how the back acts

But a reverse grip puts the biceps in the strongest position, therefore you minimise the bicep as the weak link, makes sense to me.

 

[protobe]

changing your grip for lat pulldowns and tricep pulldowns are good to do. I think they work a different part of the lat since you can stretch out more but you can feel it in a reg. lat pulldown too just a different part of the lat.

 

[casualbb]

Actually the lat contraction is identical between the two.

The only downside to reverse grip chins would be that a wide grip feels more unnatural than it does with normal grip.

I've always done regular, never reverse... back grows just fine. But who knows, it could be better. Maybe I'll try them soon.

 

[lavi]

What effect does leaning back while doing lat pulldowns have?

 

[Arnold'sApprentice]

a lil arch is good but leaning back too much involves too much lower back and not enuff lats.

 

[JoBu]

Changes the focus of the contraction. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but you need to be aware of the impact your body position has on the exercise. Generally I'm all for variations in grips and such for many movements. But I disagree with the original poster who claimed a reverse grip to be the "better" way to perform the movement. I also notice that individual hasn't weighed in on the discussion lately.

JoBu

What effect does leaning back while doing lat pulldowns have?

 

[coolcolj]

Here is something to note, when I do my chins, I have always done them on a power rack or a thick square bar on a smith machine support

Which means I use a partial L-Shaped grip.
Like hanging on a wall. This does make the movement different, and much harder.
Accordng to Poliquin it makes one recruit the lats much more than with a small round bar
Taxes the grip quite a bit too...

So try a thumbless grip on shoulder width palms facing chins. You won't really notice the biceps contracting as much, but theya re still in a stronger position

 

[Singleton]

Actually the lat contraction is identical between the two.

u can back that up with ?


In a study aimed at investigating the effects of different hand positions on the electromyographic (EMG) activity of shoulder muscles during the performance of the lat pull-down exercise, ten healthy men performed 3 repetitions of the lat pull-down exercise using their experimentally determined 10RM.

close grip

supinated grip (SG)

wide grip anterior
wide grip posterior (WGP).

They found that wide grip anterior worked latissimus dorsi and the triceps long head the most.

Wide grip posterior worked triceps long head second.

Close grip worked the pec major [sternal head] the most.

Changes in handgrip position affect the activities of specific muscles during the lat pull-down movement. They found that "performance of the lat pull-down exercise using the WGA hand position produces greater muscle activity in the LD than any other hand position during both the concentric or eccentric phases of the movement."


How they hooked up the electrodes may have provided a misleading result. We know that the lats are a one to many attachment, like the pec major. I assume they put the electrode on the upper portion of the lat.

In any case, we know that the grip used determines the degree of involvement of various muscles, including pectoralis major, triceps long head, and a multitude of back and shoulder muscles.

References
------------------------------------------
A comparative electromyographical investigation of muscle utilization patterns using various hand positions during the lat pull-down.

Signorile JF, Zink AJ, Szwed SP.
------------------------------------------
[Anatomy of latissimus dorsi and its clinical application]

[Article in Chinese]

Zhao R, Qiao Q, Liu C.

Plastic Surgery Hospital, Peking Union Medical College, Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, Beijing, P. R. China 100041.

 

[punch]

Just logged on....nice to see that many take this topic seriousely. My back is by far my best bodypart. It also helps that I have been training since I was 16, I am now 33. This in and of itself may not mean much, but, I can say I have tried MANY spins on traditional movements, new age programs, diets etc.

The point of this thread was based on MY opinion. None of the threads on ELITE should be construed as Gospel. Now, that being said....


I believe that an underhand grip provides for more strength in the pulldown period, thats my belief. How can I say this, well, my experience. I always attempt to weed out the weakest link in my training. When I perform very heavy pulldowns, I do NOT want my grip to come in to play, after all Im training back. If my grip is not a factor, or is made a limiting factor, I can concentrate on the movement. Case and point... " I " am able to contract my back far greater w/ reverse pulldowns than a forward grip. By enabling my elbows to flow back, even 1-2 inches more than than a forward grip, I will opt for the bigger ROM.

Strangely, and I am remiss that I dont know the exact biomechanics, I tend NOT to have nearly a tendancy to " SWING " with a reverse grip as I would performing pulldowns to the front. The reasons for this are unclear to me, it is based on my experience. I also perform close grip pulldowns on occasion, but have eliminated the front version in my workout for now. Peace.

 

[JoBu]

Good answer. Everyone should try all the variations of the moves they do and go with whatever they feel works best for them.

Just logged on....nice to see that many take this topic seriousely. My back is by far my best bodypart. It also helps that I have been training since I was 16, I am now 33. This in and of itself may not mean much, but, I can say I have tried MANY spins on traditional movements, new age programs, diets etc.

The point of this thread was based on MY opinion. None of the threads on ELITE should be construed as Gospel. Now, that being said....


I believe that an underhand grip provides for more strength in the pulldown period, thats my belief. How can I say this, well, my experience. I always attempt to weed out the weakest link in my training. When I perform very heavy pulldowns, I do NOT want my grip to come in to play, after all Im training back. If my grip is not a factor, or is made a limiting factor, I can concentrate on the movement. Case and point... " I " am able to contract my back far greater w/ reverse pulldowns than a forward grip. By enabling my elbows to flow back, even 1-2 inches more than than a forward grip, I will opt for the bigger ROM.

Strangely, and I am remiss that I dont know the exact biomechanics, I tend NOT to have nearly a tendancy to " SWING " with a reverse grip as I would performing pulldowns to the front. The reasons for this are unclear to me, it is based on my experience. I also perform close grip pulldowns on occasion, but have eliminated the front version in my workout for now. Peace.

 

[casualbb]

That may be the case. I'm also of the opinion that a person can change muscle distribution a good deal just by thinking about it. That study doesn't necessarily prove that wide grip, palms-out lats is best for recruiting lats. It could be that it's the way in which most untrained individuals tend to use the most lat.

...What else was I gonna say?

Oh yeah, mimic the motion to yourself: the lat movement is almost identical. I really don't think it makes all that much difference.

 

[Singleton]

When you pull down with a reverse grip, or close-grip anterior (CGA), your elbows start in front of your head, and end up right at your sides.

Posterior grip, especially wide-grip posterior (WGP) your elbows are out to the sides. The lats don't have as much leverage for that as they do when using an anterior grip.

I did mimic the motion myself. CGA (rev. grip) will end with the lats in a more contracted position than they would be from using WGA.

 

[IBONUMBER1]

Sorry social girl, but punch is right. Curl grip pulldowns are how Dorian Yates built a hugh back and most bodybuilders. Curl girp does allow for greater contraction. Your premise of using too much weight is beside the point here. If you use a forward grip and you use proper technique with elbows out you don't get as deep a contraction as curl grip pull down which allows the elbows to break the parallel plane and go past the chest thus giving a deeper contraction. But hey, you want to do reverse...go ahead. But the fact is with curl grip the elbows and ROM goes farther, and a squeeze at the height of contraction is what stimulates and builds a bigger muscle.