Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Texas Ranger
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Guys, from YOUR own personal experiences, which is better to control estrogen related water retention & other sides during a Test cycle?? Proviron? Or Arimidex? I'll be using a combo of Test Enanthate/Cyp@600mgs/wk.
Proviron Or Arimidex With Test Only Cycle- Which Is Better???
- Thread starter Texas Ranger
- Start date
sh4dowf4lcon
New member
You did not mention my favorite one, and it is more expensive but it is the best: Aromasin.
Most will agree all things considered this is really the best choice.
Most will agree all things considered this is really the best choice.
L
lartinos
Guest
for estro management you should not use proviron. Anybody who has tried aromasin will tell you it is shizzle when it cones to anti-e's. Aromasin or liquidex is your best bet.
Texas Ranger
New member
I've heard go and bad about Letro, mostly bad. So, I wouldn't consider using it.
Letrozol is femera, which is an anti-estrogen.
Femara is 10-30x more effective than Arimidex in it's ability to pass thru the cell membrane of lipid (fat) cells and inhibit the activity of aromatase -- in other words, Femara is far superior in lowering estrogen levels in fat cells. This has two benefits for BBs; (1) Estrogen 'attracts' water, so less water retention (2) an average male BB is around 10%BF, that's a lot of lipid cells with aromatase inside them, so a substantial percentage of aromatase is left untouched by Arimidex due to it's poor ability to enter lipid cellsArimidex is approximately 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara is around 95-97%
notes:
1. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7
2. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1997 Nov-Dec;63(4-6):261-7
Femara is 10-30x more effective than Arimidex in it's ability to pass thru the cell membrane of lipid (fat) cells and inhibit the activity of aromatase -- in other words, Femara is far superior in lowering estrogen levels in fat cells. This has two benefits for BBs; (1) Estrogen 'attracts' water, so less water retention (2) an average male BB is around 10%BF, that's a lot of lipid cells with aromatase inside them, so a substantial percentage of aromatase is left untouched by Arimidex due to it's poor ability to enter lipid cellsArimidex is approximately 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara is around 95-97%
notes:
1. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7
2. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1997 Nov-Dec;63(4-6):261-7
Texas Ranger
New member
Nitro, the reason I will NOT use Letro is everyone I spoke to(at least 10 guys)complained of lack of sex drive. Definitely, something I DO NOT want...
Texas Ranger
New member
Ok, now back to the 2 choices above. Which is better???
L
lartinos
Guest
Letro kills the effectiveness of nolvadex.
Originally posted by BOT
If you want specifics, femara is best because it not only
eliminates estradiol and estrone but also estrone sulfat, something
armidex doesn't really touch for some reason. Morte importantly,
femara gets inside the fat cells where as arimdex just floats
around in the blood stream. As we all know the aromatase inside the
fat cells can be the worst kind, the estrogen made there is
longferlived, has trouble getting into general circulation where it
can be broken down by the liver and also has some of the most
unsightly effects of estrogen, namely more fat, and even worse in
areas where it is only appropriate in women.
If you want specifics, femara is best because it not only
eliminates estradiol and estrone but also estrone sulfat, something
armidex doesn't really touch for some reason. Morte importantly,
femara gets inside the fat cells where as arimdex just floats
around in the blood stream. As we all know the aromatase inside the
fat cells can be the worst kind, the estrogen made there is
longferlived, has trouble getting into general circulation where it
can be broken down by the liver and also has some of the most
unsightly effects of estrogen, namely more fat, and even worse in
areas where it is only appropriate in women.
twistedneck
New member
Wow, I never knew that about letrozole. I may just try it instead of anastozole. what an interesting argument.
Is there an actual study or literature that points this out?
Is there an actual study or literature that points this out?
Texas Ranger
New member
JoBu, what are the extra benefits besides water control??
Here's everything you need to know about proviron:
Proviron (mesterolone)
DESCRIPTION
Proviron is a synthetic, orally effective androgen which does not have any anabolic characteristics. Proviron is used in school medi-cine to case or cure disturbances caused by a deficiency of male sex hormones. Many athletes, for this reason, often use Proviron at the end of a steroid treatment in order to increase the reduced testosterone production. This, however, is not a good idea since Proviron has no effect on the body's own testosterone production but as mentioned in the beginning only reduces or completely eliminates the dysfunctions caused by the testosterone deficiency. These are, in particular, impotence which is mostly caused by an androgen deficiency that can occur after the discontinuance of steroids, and infertility which manifests itself in a reduced sperm count and a reduced sperm quality. Proviron is therefore taken during a steroid administration or after discontinuing the use of the steroids, to eliminate a possible impotency or a reduced sexual interest. This, however, does not contribute to the maintenance of strength and muscle mass after the treatment. There are other better suited compounds for this (see HCG, Clomid, and Teslac). For this reason Proviron is unfortunately considered by many to be a useless and unnecessary compound.
You should be aware that Proviron is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses the forming of estrogens no re-bound effect occurs after discontinuation of use of the compound as is the case with, for example, Nolvadex where an aromatization of the steroids is not prevented. One can say that Nolvadex cures the problem of aromatization at its root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. For this reason male athletes should prefer Proviron to Nolvadex. With Proviron the athlete obtains more muscle hardness since the androgen level is increased and the estrogen concen-tration remains low. This, in particular, is noted positively during the preparation for a competition when used in combination with a diet. Female athletes who naturally have a higher estrogen level of-ten supplement their steroid intake with Proviron resulting in increased muscle hardness. In the past it was common for body-builders to take a daily dose of one 25 mg tablet over several weeks, sometimes even months, in order to appear hard all year round. This was especially important for athletes' appearances at guest performances, seminars and photo sessions. Today Clenbuterol is usually taken over the entire year since possible virilization symp-toms cannot occur which is not yet the case with Proviron.
DOSAGE
Since Proviron is very effective male athletes usually need only 50-mg/ day which means that the athlete usually takes one 25 mg tablet in the morning and another 25 mg tablet in the evening. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen. Even better results are achieved with 50 mg Proviron/ day and 500 - 1000 mg Teslac/day. Since Teslac is a very expensive compound (see Teslac) most athletes do not consider this combination.
SIDE EFFECTS
The side effects of Proviron in men are low at a dosage of 24 tablets/day so that Proviron, taken for example in combination with a steroid cycle, can be used comparatively without risk over several weeks. Since Proviron is well tolerated by the liver, liver dysfunctions do not occur in the given dosages. For athletes who are used to acting under the motto "more is better" the intake of Proviron could have a paradoxical effect. The most common side effect of Proviron is a distinct sexual overstimulation and in some cases continuous penis erection. Since this condition can be painful and lead to possible damages, a lower dosage or discontinu-ing the compound are the only sensible solutions. Female athletes should use Proviron with caution since possible androgenic side effects cannot be excluded.
Proviron (mesterolone)
DESCRIPTION
Proviron is a synthetic, orally effective androgen which does not have any anabolic characteristics. Proviron is used in school medi-cine to case or cure disturbances caused by a deficiency of male sex hormones. Many athletes, for this reason, often use Proviron at the end of a steroid treatment in order to increase the reduced testosterone production. This, however, is not a good idea since Proviron has no effect on the body's own testosterone production but as mentioned in the beginning only reduces or completely eliminates the dysfunctions caused by the testosterone deficiency. These are, in particular, impotence which is mostly caused by an androgen deficiency that can occur after the discontinuance of steroids, and infertility which manifests itself in a reduced sperm count and a reduced sperm quality. Proviron is therefore taken during a steroid administration or after discontinuing the use of the steroids, to eliminate a possible impotency or a reduced sexual interest. This, however, does not contribute to the maintenance of strength and muscle mass after the treatment. There are other better suited compounds for this (see HCG, Clomid, and Teslac). For this reason Proviron is unfortunately considered by many to be a useless and unnecessary compound.
You should be aware that Proviron is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses the forming of estrogens no re-bound effect occurs after discontinuation of use of the compound as is the case with, for example, Nolvadex where an aromatization of the steroids is not prevented. One can say that Nolvadex cures the problem of aromatization at its root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. For this reason male athletes should prefer Proviron to Nolvadex. With Proviron the athlete obtains more muscle hardness since the androgen level is increased and the estrogen concen-tration remains low. This, in particular, is noted positively during the preparation for a competition when used in combination with a diet. Female athletes who naturally have a higher estrogen level of-ten supplement their steroid intake with Proviron resulting in increased muscle hardness. In the past it was common for body-builders to take a daily dose of one 25 mg tablet over several weeks, sometimes even months, in order to appear hard all year round. This was especially important for athletes' appearances at guest performances, seminars and photo sessions. Today Clenbuterol is usually taken over the entire year since possible virilization symp-toms cannot occur which is not yet the case with Proviron.
DOSAGE
Since Proviron is very effective male athletes usually need only 50-mg/ day which means that the athlete usually takes one 25 mg tablet in the morning and another 25 mg tablet in the evening. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen. Even better results are achieved with 50 mg Proviron/ day and 500 - 1000 mg Teslac/day. Since Teslac is a very expensive compound (see Teslac) most athletes do not consider this combination.
SIDE EFFECTS
The side effects of Proviron in men are low at a dosage of 24 tablets/day so that Proviron, taken for example in combination with a steroid cycle, can be used comparatively without risk over several weeks. Since Proviron is well tolerated by the liver, liver dysfunctions do not occur in the given dosages. For athletes who are used to acting under the motto "more is better" the intake of Proviron could have a paradoxical effect. The most common side effect of Proviron is a distinct sexual overstimulation and in some cases continuous penis erection. Since this condition can be painful and lead to possible damages, a lower dosage or discontinu-ing the compound are the only sensible solutions. Female athletes should use Proviron with caution since possible androgenic side effects cannot be excluded.
bicepts101
New member
jobu is on the money here
bicepts101
New member
click on the link and read the whole thing:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288523&highlight=proviron
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288523&highlight=proviron
Bicepts I've never read that take on proviron before. I used it in a test cycle at 25mg ed Sustanon 750mg per week for 10 weeks. I had no bloat or gyno so I felt it worked for what I wanted it to do, but since then havn't used it and I didn't notice any increase in gains in regards to cycles I've had since then. Very interesting to say the least...
Originally posted over at Intense-training.com
Big Cats profile on Proviron, Amended by Lawnsaver.
Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.
Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.
The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.
Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.
Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.
Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,
I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page
Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.
Stacking and Use:
Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.
The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.
It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.
Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.
Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive
Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA
This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.
Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.
We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.
Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.
There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.
In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.
Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
Big Cats profile on Proviron, Amended by Lawnsaver.
Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.
Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.
The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.
Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.
Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.
Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,
I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page
Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.
Stacking and Use:
Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.
The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.
It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.
Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.
Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive
Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA
This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.
Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.
We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.
Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.
There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.
In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.
Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
bicepts101
New member
JoBu said:Didn't realize you posted a link to that...well, now the lazy can read it here
yeah, i was gonna do the same thing, but i was being lazy too, lol
Texas Ranger
New member
Thanks for taking the time to post the profiles, but I've read the same ones several times. It might help some of the guys that don't know. I was looking for more hands on advice from people that used both.
bicepts101
New member
Texas Ranger said:
i would use both.
PM fonz hes a big proviron fan
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