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Proviron during the cycle...

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Proviron during the cycle and post-cycle...

Who here has used Proviron during your cycle to prevent estrogen build-up? Also, have you used Proviron post -cycle for recovery? Does it elevate natural levels of testosterone post-cycle?

I found the following info posted by Big Cat on his drup profile interesting...

"Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse".
 
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I use it right now with my test Enathate, dbol and EQ cycle. MOstly for the SHBG reson and the fact I do not hold much water when I take it
 
MrRTTB said:
I use it right now with my test Enathate, dbol and EQ cycle. MOstly for the SHBG reson and the fact I do not hold much water when I take it

What dosage per day? Do you plan to continue using it post-cycle?
 
Hid-He-Us said:
Someone else please give some input as Iam very interested in this product..........Also isnt Proviron supposed to increase sperm output?

Nelson has been advocating the use of Proviron for quite some time. Possibly he can chime in here.
 
Someone else please give some input as Iam very interested in this product..........Also isnt Proviron supposed to increase sperm output?
 
i always use it if i can get my hands on it and can afford it. 25mg ED or 50mg ED during cycle. rarely off cycle so haven't used it much then, but did a while back. for pro-sexual purposes you may need to go as high as 75mg or more though. it releases bound test as well as it works as a hardening agent....so i would save it for cutters personally.
 
Here is the whole thing with some added stuff by me!

Big Cats profile on Proviron, Amended by Lawnsaver.

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,

I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page

Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.


Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive

Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
 
I have used it several times. As far as keeping down bloat I really dont think its near as good as a-dex. But it did help a little and I did seem to get stronger when on it. The biggest benefit is the decrease in SHBG. Less SHBG=more available test=better results from less drugs.
 
So Lawnsaver...what I get from that is that since Proviron does not suppress your HPTA it can be used post-cycle along with Clomid and Nolva to help maintain the erectile function. My libido takes a nose dive post-cycle so I was looking into Proviron to not only reduce the estrogen build-up during the cycle but also during the post-cycle to help boost T-levels.

Question of the hour: Does Proviron indirectly or directly increase natural levels of testosterone?
 
i am running proviron 25mg a day wk 1-8
dbol 25mg a day wk 1-4
BTG OX 30mg a day wk 4-8
stanabol 35mg a day wk 5-8


any comments? i feel great i am on wk 4
 
Once again -

Question of the hour: Does Proviron indirectly or directly increase natural levels of testosterone post-cycle?

Karma to anyone who can accurately answer this with supporting evidence...
 
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I have heard that it does suppress natural testosterone. I will bump though b/c I am not sure, and if it does not then I am going to start using this shit post cycle every time.
 
Juice Authority said:
Once again -

Question of the hour: Does Proviron indirectly or directly increase natural levels of testosterone?

Karma to anyone who can accurately answer this with supporting evidence...

well "directly" or "indirectly"........its frees up test that is bound to SHBG....therefore MORE FREE TEST in your body.
 
kosh said:
I have heard that it does suppress natural testosterone. I will bump though b/c I am not sure, and if it does not then I am going to start using this shit post cycle every time.

since it is freeing up natural test bound to SHBG, one would think that your feedback loop would want to shut down your natural production since you have extra free test floating around. this is during non-AAS periods (post-cycle). while on AAS i doubt this question would be valid and would not matter. good question though, had not thought of that negative effect.....but heard the same as you did.
 
Bishop4 said:


well "directly" or "indirectly"........its frees up test that is bound to SHBG....therefore MORE FREE TEST in your body.

Good point but not necesarily true.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm

"Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD)".
 
Bishop4 said:


since it is freeing up natural test bound to SHBG, one would think that your feedback loop would want to shut down your natural production since you have extra free test floating around. this is during non-AAS periods (post-cycle). while on AAS i doubt this question would be valid and would not matter. good question though, had not thought of that negative effect.....but heard the same as you did.

The free test is natural. Your body doesnt know why it has more free test and it is not being produced synthetically.

Proviron increases free test indirectly by occupying more SHBGs, which in turn increases the free test, which is where the increase in libido comes from!

Taking proviron during HPTA therapy is tricky. Although most men in the abstact were not affected, it is still an androgen, which can cause problems when you are trying to recover. Remember the men in the study were not coming off a cycle and trying to restart their HPTA. We are and we know that we need all the help we can get, so taking proviron during our HPTA therapy might cause a problem as everyone recovers differently.
 
JA Proviron does free up more bound test,however like in my case any test dosage above 600mg-wk and i get shut down,and adding more proviron to free up more test isn't gonna work...right now,currently running 500-wk, proviron at 20 - 50 mg per day,i believe it to be a good addition to post cycle recovery.


RADAR
 
LAWNSAVER said:


The free test is natural. Your body doesnt know why it has more free test and it is not being produced synthetically.

Proviron increases free test indirectly by occupying more SHBGs, which in turn increases the free test, which is where the increase in libido comes from!

Taking proviron during HPTA therapy is tricky. Although most men in the abstact were not affected, it is still an androgen, which can cause problems when you are trying to recover. Remember the men in the study were not coming off a cycle and trying to restart their HPTA. We are and we know that we need all the help we can get, so taking proviron during our HPTA therapy might cause a problem as everyone recovers differently.

yeah, that makes sense. i figured it was a good thing all around, but wasn't sure if the free test would affect negatively. seems everything you try and do has a negative effect even though its main effect sounds great. upshot.......PROVIRON FOR EVERYONE! :beer:
 
RADAR said:
JA Proviron does free up more bound test,however like in my case any test dosage above 600mg-wk and i get shut down,and adding more proviron to free up more test isn't gonna work...right now,currently running 500-wk, proviron at 20 - 50 mg per day,i believe it to be a good addition to post cycle recovery.


RADAR

Point taken. However, my question pertains to post-cycle therapy.
 
I use it at 25mg ED, and when I step off I step off...I will not continue with proviron. HCG and Nolva is the way to go for me
 
One last bump for comments from those who have used Proviron post-cycle as an anti-e in aide in HPTA recovery...Does it hinder recovery?
 
So... WTF is this stuff good for?????????????? Post? During? How much, when? Why is this question so hard to answer?
 
dragon14 said:
So... WTF is this stuff good for?????????????? Post? During? How much, when? Why is this question so hard to answer?

it isn't hard to answer. it frees up test that is bound inside your body to sex hormone binding globulin. you have more free natural test floating around, which is good. it also is a weak anti-E, which is good. should be good for during and post cycle. i don't see a problem here, but someone wants an answer to something that is not going to be answered. it is expensive for me domestic, so i use it during cycle only. plus i figure, best to "cycle" it, and i'd rather use it during cycle "just in case" it is harmful to recovery. which i doubt it is.
 
Bishop4 said:


it isn't hard to answer. it frees up test that is bound inside your body to sex hormone binding globulin. you have more free natural test floating around, which is good. it also is a weak anti-E, which is good. should be good for during and post cycle. i don't see a problem here, but someone wants an answer to something that is not going to be answered. it is expensive for me domestic, so i use it during cycle only. plus i figure, best to "cycle" it, and i'd rather use it during cycle "just in case" it is harmful to recovery. which i doubt it is.

I don't think anyone here (including Nelson) really knows how effective Proviron is as an anti-e for post-cycle recovery. I guess I stumped the board with that one. I even offered karma and all but no one stepped up to the plate and gave an answer to that question.
 
Many people still use proviron post cycle along with clomid. Some use it to help their libido while it would normally be in the toilet. Others believe it helps them recover faster. I don't know how anyone can prove definitively that Proviron hurts or helps post cycle because there are no studies (that I know of) where it was used after coming off AAS.

I've always been interested in this issue myself. I've never heard anyone claim that it hurt them post cycle. The study that was posted earlier in this thread gives some reassurance that it won't stop recovery from happening.

Say for argument's sake that Proviron was a little suppressive. So when you take it post cycle it slightly decreases your natural test levels. Does it negate the negative end result by offering a higher increase in free test?

It's unfortunate that we still really don't know too much about HPTA recovery in the first place. I'll hypothesize that Proviron is substantially less suppressive than 500mg of test for example. So you come off a cycle of 500mg of test and go straight to 50mg of Proviron a day.
Theoretically your HPTA would be able to recover to a certain extent because the amount of excess androgens present has greatly diminished, signalling the need for the testes to start producing more testosterone. This is the same idea behind the d-bol bridge. I know Fonz is an advocate of the d-bol bridge, so maybe he'll offer some insight to this thread. But maybe not, because that might involve agreeing with Nelson (gasp!) on Proviron post cycle.

Some people are adamant that ANY endogenous androgen will continue to suppress the HPTA. The problem behind this kind of thinking is that there are different levels of suppression, and some recovery can occur despite a small level of suppression.


So if you now agree that Proviron is minimally suppressive, we can move onto the next part of the theory behind its post cycle application...

So as your HPTA starts recovering and your nuts are producing test again, Proviron will help you get the most out of the initially small levels of test. With less SHBG you will have more free testosterone to help you maintain the gains you made, help your libido, and help fight the mental/emotional crash. Without the Proviron you wouldn't have as much free test flowing through your bloodstream.

There is still a potential flaw in this theory that I see, but then again, I am not nearly knowledgeable enough in this department to know whether it is warranted or not. The problem I see is that you have a higher level of free test than you would have without the proviron. So does your HPTA base its actions on free test or total test? If it just saw all that free test, it might decide to stop its recovery because it "thinks" it IS fully recovered. So you would have lower total test levels until you stopped the Proviron, but your free test levels would be normal, so does it even really matter? I could be way off base with my limited knowledge about the HPTA, but I don't think it really matter much.

In any case, I don't believe it would hamper your recovery at all, rather it could help you avoid losing gains and just help you feel better to boot.
 
Well, after reading all that I'd have to say we're back where we started. You raised some excellent points which really readdressed my initial question. Is proviron suppressive to the HPTA? Well, the study Lawnsaver posted showed that it wasn't. So is the adverse then true? In order words has Proviron shown to increase natrual levels of testosterone?
 
Juice Authority said:
In order words has Proviron shown to increase natrual levels of testosterone?

I'm not aware of any direct effect on total testosterone levels. I really don't think it directly increases total test. It won't take the place of clomid/nolva in the "standard" post cycle recovery regimine. That's just not its function. What it will do is minimize the risk of muscle loss and overall make the recovery process more bearable by increasing the testosterone level that counts: free testosterone.

There are still a bunch of doubts that anyone can raise with the theory, but I don't think anyone here can give the final verdict. Shit, we don't even have a definitive answer on the efficacy of clomid or nolva in aiding recovery, but most people just go by anecdotal evidence that's weakly supported by a few studies. I think that's all we're going to get with Proviron, but with fewer user experiences and minus a few studies.
 
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