Programming question for bench

[Protobuilder]

Quick question -- I've stalled on bench and need some guidance on how to adjust to keep progress going. I was doing 5x5 (pyramiding up to top set per SF protocol), got stuck at top set of 180 on flat bench (couldn't get all 5 despite trying for several sessions), so started doing 3 sets of 3 with heavier weight. I rode that for several weeks but have stalled at 190 (can't get 3x3 w/ 190 and actually lost a rep last session).

Where should I go from here? I've thought about:

(a) going back to a top set of 5 (pyramiding like I was doing, hopefully getting past a top set of 5x180 though, LoL),

(b) working to a top set of 8 or something (higher reps, less intensity), or

(c) doing 5 straight sets of 5 (e.g., lighter weight, increasing work capacity).

I've been working in the 3-5 rep range for 3 months now, if that matters.

Any thoughts guys?

 

[Madcow2]

Where are your other lifts? Is everything close to a stall, is bench the only one having trouble. Ideally you want things moving together so you need to do what is going to keep it most in line with everything else.

As an interesting aside, I'll also say I never hear of people having their squat or row or dead stall on them first, it's always the bench. This would indicate a tendancy for people to start heavier on the bench relative to other lifts (otherwise there would be significant randomness and we wouldn't always be working at keeping the bench moving while everything else moves smoothly). This also makes sense from a psychological standpoint since the bench is the most important lift to many people and thus maybe some hesitancy to be conservative and start as light as the other lifts. Either that or it's the 5lbs increments but I tend not to hear this with rows, military, or inclines nearly as much as the bench. My theory anyway.

 

[Protobuilder]

Where are your other lifts? Is everything close to a stall, is bench the only one having trouble.

I’m in week 15 of the SF 5x5. I’m still making progress for the most part, but things are starting to stall/slow down all around really. I’ve reduced workload in my ramping sets pretty much all around. I’m still adding a rep or two on almost everything but I’m really grinding ‘em out now.

Squats -- I had to reset about a week ago—couldn’t get a top set at 195 so dropped back to 175 and have been adding 5 lbs. each session. I might not have dropped back far enough b/c 185 feels heavy as crap already.

Bench – stalled in early January; switched to 3 sets of 3 working w/ higher intensity . . . went up another 10 pounds but have stalled again now.

Rows are my old reliable—2.5 pound jumps every week, no problem—I’m at 185 now but that’s getting really tough. It’ll go up, but it’s tough at that weight (my bodyweight = 173-ish).

Military—an extra couple of reps each workout usually; small jumps. I’m at 127.5 lbs right now. Again, reduced volume on ramp-up sets to get PRs nowadays.

Deads – gains have slowed (I’m at 280); still setting PRs each week but I’m not nailing a new PR top set of 5 every week now (just adding a couple reps each week, so I’m making progress just not as fast as I was)

FWIW – I’ve been making 5 pound jumps on deads & squats; 2.5 lb. jumps on everything else (slow & steady progress w/ the 1.25 lb. OLY plates, which are a LIFESAVER on upper body).

 

[Devastation]

stop using the bench as your only main bench movement. try floor presses, using boards, bands, chains, etc

also train by percentages of your 1rm

PERCENT . REPS/SET . OPTIMAL TOTAL . RANGE

55-65 . . . 3-6 . . . 24 . . . 18-30
70-75 . . . 3-6 . . . 18 . . . 12-24
80-85 . . . 2-4 . . . 15 . . . 10-20
90+ . . . . 1-2 . . . 7 . . . 4-10

and you need to understand this chart to use it. if you're going to use 90%+ of your 1rm for your training weight on that training day, your sets should include you only doing 1 to 2 reps per set, with an avg of 7 reps being that training day in the 90%+ training range

example, you could warm up then when you reach your working set, do 4 sets of 2 reps that is 90%+ of your 1 rm, or you could do 6 or 7 sets of singles with a short rest time in between. you could do this for 4 sets of singles or even 5 sets of doubles, but ideally your would be doing 7 reps total for your workings SETS, not in one set. that 7 reps you see in the chart is the OPTIMAL total number of reps that should be done that day for that weight range


plus focus on shoulder, triceps, and upper back to help strengthen the supporting muscles of the bench press. rows should be done very closely in the same plane as that you bench


one thing i will say i have observed on this board is people's complete lack of understanding on how to train by percentages. learn how to do it and your strength will continue to rise

 

[Assertive Guy]

I’m in week 15 of the SF 5x5. I’m still making progress for the most part, but things are starting to stall/slow down all around really. I’ve reduced workload in my ramping sets pretty much all around. I’m still adding a rep or two on almost everything but I’m really grinding ‘em out now.

Squats -- I had to reset about a week ago—couldn’t get a top set at 195 so dropped back to 175 and have been adding 5 lbs. each session. I might not have dropped back far enough b/c 185 feels heavy as crap already.

Bench – stalled in early January; switched to 3 sets of 3 working w/ higher intensity . . . went up another 10 pounds but have stalled again now.

Rows are my old reliable—2.5 pound jumps every week, no problem—I’m at 185 now but that’s getting really tough. It’ll go up, but it’s tough at that weight (my bodyweight = 173-ish).


Military—an extra couple of reps each workout usually; small jumps. I’m at 127.5 lbs right now. Again, reduced volume on ramp-up sets to get PRs nowadays.

Deads – gains have slowed (I’m at 280); still setting PRs each week but I’m not nailing a new PR top set of 5 every week now (just adding a couple reps each week, so I’m making progress just not as fast as I was)

FWIW – I’ve been making 5 pound jumps on deads & squats; 2.5 lb. jumps on everything else (slow & steady progress w/ the 1.25 lb. OLY plates, which are a LIFESAVER on upper body).

You could try dips/weighted dips which will work those relatively stronger back muscles to support the tri's and chest.

 

[Madcow2]

I’m in week 15 of the SF 5x5. I’m still making progress for the most part, but things are starting to stall/slow down all around really. I’ve reduced workload in my ramping sets pretty much all around. I’m still adding a rep or two on almost everything but I’m really grinding ‘em out now.

Squats -- I had to reset about a week ago—couldn’t get a top set at 195 so dropped back to 175 and have been adding 5 lbs. each session. I might not have dropped back far enough b/c 185 feels heavy as crap already.

Bench – stalled in early January; switched to 3 sets of 3 working w/ higher intensity . . . went up another 10 pounds but have stalled again now.

Rows are my old reliable—2.5 pound jumps every week, no problem—I’m at 185 now but that’s getting really tough. It’ll go up, but it’s tough at that weight (my bodyweight = 173-ish).

Military—an extra couple of reps each workout usually; small jumps. I’m at 127.5 lbs right now. Again, reduced volume on ramp-up sets to get PRs nowadays.

Deads – gains have slowed (I’m at 280); still setting PRs each week but I’m not nailing a new PR top set of 5 every week now (just adding a couple reps each week, so I’m making progress just not as fast as I was)

FWIW – I’ve been making 5 pound jumps on deads & squats; 2.5 lb. jumps on everything else (slow & steady progress w/ the 1.25 lb. OLY plates, which are a LIFESAVER on upper body).

I think you are about done. Could probably use a break anyway. Your bench and squat have broken. Everything else is slowing considerably or getting ready to halt. Why give a guy on life support a tummy tuck. If you want to continue on this format, start over and change some variables. I know I talk about riding something until it dies as long as the PRs continue but you've done that. If I were to make a suggestion, I would move the reps up for a phase since you've already dabbled a bit in triples.

As for a straight out percentage program, IMO if you are setting new 5 rep PRs every week for 10 weeks, your 1RM is scaling too fast and is too much of a moving variable to set as a constant and get fancy with longer planning. And if you are that adaptable you probably wouldn't benefit much more anyway.

 

[Protobuilder]

Thanks for the advice Devastation and Madcow.

I've been considering moving more into a hypertrophy phase. I don't want to lose much strength though (I'm not that strong to begin with, LoL). Is it inevitable? I'm considering still doing at least one heavy set per exercise just to keep the strength levels there, but then following that w/ hypertrophy sets (higher reps, lower intensity, shorter rests, but still using progressive overload & what I learned from 5x5). Should I take time off completely from the high intensity (%1RM) stuff?

Here's my idea more or less:

warmup
ramp up safely to a single top set of 3-5 reps (trying to keep the strength)
multiple hypertrophy sets (same basic exercises as on the 5x5 . . .might sub in incline instead of flat bench)

Alternatively: warmup, then do speed work (multiple sets of light triples), followed by hypertrophy work.

I mean, I guess I'm just still doing "5x5" only I'll be doing 3x8 or something, right? Same ramping ideas, etc.?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Here's my idea more or less:

warmup
ramp up safely to a single top set of 3-5 reps (trying to keep the strength)
multiple hypertrophy sets (same basic exercises as on the 5x5 . . .might sub in incline instead of flat bench)

Alternatively: warmup, then do speed work (multiple sets of light triples), followed by hypertrophy work.

I mean, I guess I'm just still doing "5x5" only I'll be doing 3x8 or something, right? Same ramping ideas, etc.?

Seems to me that the plan you propose is a ton more work. SF isn't much more than a warmup to a top set of 5 anyway. Knocking the ramps down a bit then doing high rep work afterward is a pretty big step up in workload (as I see it anyway).

Just an idea, but have you considered something like WSB for Skinny Bastards? It's different and it's not a total cookie cutter in that you can play with exercise selection and some other stuff. I know MC2 would love to see us "udderlings" start to branch off and figure this stuff out for ourselves, but IMO trying a new cookie cutter like WSB4SB might give you some decent gains and be educational as well.

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks for the advice Devastation and Madcow.

I've been considering moving more into a hypertrophy phase. I don't want to lose much strength though (I'm not that strong to begin with, LoL). Is it inevitable? I'm considering still doing at least one heavy set per exercise just to keep the strength levels there, but then following that w/ hypertrophy sets (higher reps, lower intensity, shorter rests, but still using progressive overload & what I learned from 5x5). Should I take time off completely from the high intensity (%1RM) stuff?

Here's my idea more or less:

warmup
ramp up safely to a single top set of 3-5 reps (trying to keep the strength)
multiple hypertrophy sets (same basic exercises as on the 5x5 . . .might sub in incline instead of flat bench)

Alternatively: warmup, then do speed work (multiple sets of light triples), followed by hypertrophy work.

I mean, I guess I'm just still doing "5x5" only I'll be doing 3x8 or something, right? Same ramping ideas, etc.?

Basically what you want to do is conjugate or blend multiple aspects at once to prevent regression in one while prioritizing another. Perfectly viable. Just not as simple to plan and think about. In your case you have two things going on though, you are going to have to balance workload accross separate aspects for something that's appropriate - on top of that you also have to consider the carryover from the other aspect of training. Meaning, if you are going to be doing sets of 8, that's very close ot 5 reps anyway - maybe not a whole lot of point in complicating something and you'll probably get your 5RM to go up nicely if you post good gains in your 8RM. Now if you were to move to 15 reps, oh yeah - there's substantial decay there if you plan on doing it for a good amount of time. More to the point, 5 reps is already a good blend of strength and hypertrophy. It's very different from heavy 1RM style work that makes this important in PL and where you don't want to suffer regression in a core competency. So it really becomes, what is your core competency that you want to protect and is it at substantial risk with emphasizing a new protocol (i.e. 5RM vs. 8RM is not too different, 5RM vs. 15RM - a solid case could be made for that the same as 1RM vs. 8-10RM).

That brings a lot of points in that get hard to think about at time but that's the crux of it.

 

[Protobuilder]

Thanks guys.

g5.0 -- I hear ya. I really don't want to "follow a program," frankly b/c that's a pain in the ass to me. LoL I really like to keep my training pretty boring and vanilla, and I don't like to change things. I'd do the SF5x5 for years if I could. LoL So now that I'm kinda' petering out, I just want to make a very minor change or two if possible. Frankly, I like the 3x/wk. layout, the exercises, and the volume. It just works for me logistically and is simple enough that I can't F it up too much. So, I really want to stay close to that format. It feels "safe" to me. LoL j/k And I'm very much about doing this stuff on my own, which is why I've been trying to limit my questions to programming issues, the thought being that the answers will translate into me being able to take off on my own and handle the bumps in the road. So, I navigated (w/ your guys' help) from 5s to 3s, but I'm just not sure where to go when you hit the bottom (after singles, what then???).

MC2 -- sets of 8 are close to sets of 5, so no need to really "keep up" the 5RM (i.e., no need to conjugate between 8 & 5). Gotcha. So then I may just run 3x8 for awhile or see what my workload tolerance can handle (4x8? 5x8?). If I move into the 10-12 rep range, I may start conjugating w/ some strength stuff thrown in. And I guess when I peter out there, I'll think about coming back to 5s, maybe making them my "home base" or something? Basically, I'd like to do this simple kind of training for years if I can make that possible somehow. I guess eventually I'll need to start manipulating fitness/fatigue . . . but for now, I'll run 8s and see what happens, just trying to keep making progress w/in a rep range, maybe change an exercise or two.

Any thoughts/criticism?