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It is sad that people had to do a study to prove this once and for all.
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Praying does NOT work
- Thread starter 2Thick
- Start date
Most doctors will tell you that medical science is wrong about half the time.
Only somewhat better than prayer, and a hell of a lot moer burdensome.
Only somewhat better than prayer, and a hell of a lot moer burdensome.
D
DepressiveJuice
Guest
hardrock said:
goes up there with the UK study about monkeys not being able to spell a word in the computer because they dont know how to speak english
DeepZenPill
New member
They obviously weren't praying hard enough.
2Thick said:
Prayer doesn't work. Agreed. Medical science is wrong about half the time.
Aren't you like a first semster medical student now?
2thick thank you for citing your sources.
The point that everyone, especillay 2thick (AKA Nelson Montana) is missing is that
prayer is not for the recipient, but for the person doing it .
And it gives them a great benefit, whether it improves things or not.
prayer is not for the recipient, but for the person doing it .
And it gives them a great benefit, whether it improves things or not.
sh4dowf4lcon
New member
It is all about one's Faith or lack thereof.
2
2Thicken
Guest
I agree. . praying does work!
hardrock said:
sar·casm ( P ) Pronunciation Key (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.
2
2Thicken
Guest
I always pray before exams. . it works!
MattTheSkywalker said:
Hmmmm...what group of people tend to gravitate toweard character assassination when facts tend go against them?
Matt? Anyone? Bueller...Bueller ?
You are off-topic. We are talking about patients.
I hear that spas are nice places to regain your sanity (especially the ones with the high colonic treatment.
Y_lifter
New member
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downtown/2020/Downtown_010813_remotehealing_feature.html
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http://www.ficotw.org/medcommunity.html
One of the most famous studies of this type culminated with the release in 1988 of findings by cardiologist Dr. Randolph Byrd. He divided 393 heart attack patients randomly into two groups. One of the groups got only standard medical care. The other group got standard medical care plus daily prayer. The prayers were done by volunteers, who described themselves as born-again Christians. Neither the patients, nor the hospital staff, nor Byrd knew who was prayed for and who wasn’t. Byrd reviewed the records of the patients later and matched them to the list of patients for whom prayer was conducted. He found that the patients who were the objects of prayer "... required fewer antibiotics, suffered less congestive heart failure, and were less likely to develop pneumonia" (Jaret, 1998). The results were more dramatic than his statement sounds. Actually, the patients who were not the objects of prayer were five times as likely to need antibiotics and three times as likely to develop complications as those who were the objects of prayer (Wallis, 1996).
More recently, Dr. Mitchell Krucoff and nurse-practitioner Suzanne Crater at Duke University have been doing a study to determine whether prayer by strangers might influence the medical outcomes of patients at Durham V.A. Hospital. In 1998, they started with a group of 30 patients in a pilot study. As in the Byrd study, the group was divided between patients who were the objects of prayer and patients who were not. The patients were not aware of who was prayed for and who was not prayed for. Their initial group, which was too small to be statistically meaningful to scientific investigators, got results that Dr. Krucoff called "intriguing". Medical outcomes for patients who were the objects of prayer were 50% to 100% better than the outcomes for patients who were not the objects of prayer (Van Biema, 1998). Because of these results, they are planning to extend the research to a larger group this year.
Other research has been done. Dr. Larry Dossey reviewed the literature and found more than 130 studies on prayer, mostly done since 1950. They showed a variety of benefits from prayer, including positive effects on high blood pressure, asthma, heart attacks, headaches, and anxiety (Driedger, 1995).
There clearly are some significant scientific studies on the positive healing effects of prayer. Some scientists, however, want to dismiss the effects of prayer as nothing more than the placebo effect at work (Wallis, 1996). They argue that the patient gets better because he believes he is going to get better, which makes his body subconsciously do the things it needs to do in order to get better. The placebo effect is a reality, and it is miraculous, but studies like those done by Drs. Byrd and Krucoff, where patients don’t know they are part of the experimental group (the objects of prayer), eliminate the placebo effect as the reason for improvement.
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http://www.cpmc.org/professionals/research/currents/distant_healing_2001.html
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http://www.ficotw.org/medcommunity.html
One of the most famous studies of this type culminated with the release in 1988 of findings by cardiologist Dr. Randolph Byrd. He divided 393 heart attack patients randomly into two groups. One of the groups got only standard medical care. The other group got standard medical care plus daily prayer. The prayers were done by volunteers, who described themselves as born-again Christians. Neither the patients, nor the hospital staff, nor Byrd knew who was prayed for and who wasn’t. Byrd reviewed the records of the patients later and matched them to the list of patients for whom prayer was conducted. He found that the patients who were the objects of prayer "... required fewer antibiotics, suffered less congestive heart failure, and were less likely to develop pneumonia" (Jaret, 1998). The results were more dramatic than his statement sounds. Actually, the patients who were not the objects of prayer were five times as likely to need antibiotics and three times as likely to develop complications as those who were the objects of prayer (Wallis, 1996).
More recently, Dr. Mitchell Krucoff and nurse-practitioner Suzanne Crater at Duke University have been doing a study to determine whether prayer by strangers might influence the medical outcomes of patients at Durham V.A. Hospital. In 1998, they started with a group of 30 patients in a pilot study. As in the Byrd study, the group was divided between patients who were the objects of prayer and patients who were not. The patients were not aware of who was prayed for and who was not prayed for. Their initial group, which was too small to be statistically meaningful to scientific investigators, got results that Dr. Krucoff called "intriguing". Medical outcomes for patients who were the objects of prayer were 50% to 100% better than the outcomes for patients who were not the objects of prayer (Van Biema, 1998). Because of these results, they are planning to extend the research to a larger group this year.
Other research has been done. Dr. Larry Dossey reviewed the literature and found more than 130 studies on prayer, mostly done since 1950. They showed a variety of benefits from prayer, including positive effects on high blood pressure, asthma, heart attacks, headaches, and anxiety (Driedger, 1995).
There clearly are some significant scientific studies on the positive healing effects of prayer. Some scientists, however, want to dismiss the effects of prayer as nothing more than the placebo effect at work (Wallis, 1996). They argue that the patient gets better because he believes he is going to get better, which makes his body subconsciously do the things it needs to do in order to get better. The placebo effect is a reality, and it is miraculous, but studies like those done by Drs. Byrd and Krucoff, where patients don’t know they are part of the experimental group (the objects of prayer), eliminate the placebo effect as the reason for improvement.
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http://www.cpmc.org/professionals/research/currents/distant_healing_2001.html
2Thick said:
Personal attacks: truth is a defense against slander/libel.
I believe it to be true that you ARE Nelson. Your similar styles and presentation allow that as a reasoned conclusion.
Prayer was never about the patients. It's about the people doing it.
i went to a resort last week. www.bocaresort.com
gymtime
New member
2thick,
Just because you prayed for chocolate pudding again and didn't get it, doesn't mean prayer does not work.
Why just this morning I prayed for an uneventful morning constitutional and, praise be, all faucets were functioning like a new fuel injector, wet and wild!
So don't give up on prayer. If you need to talk to someone, I'm sure curling is still answering his PMs.
GT
Just because you prayed for chocolate pudding again and didn't get it, doesn't mean prayer does not work.
Why just this morning I prayed for an uneventful morning constitutional and, praise be, all faucets were functioning like a new fuel injector, wet and wild!
So don't give up on prayer. If you need to talk to someone, I'm sure curling is still answering his PMs.
GT
2Thick said:
That's what i thought. I think I deserve an apology. [/QUOTE]
Are you now saying you are NOT Nelson Montana?
You have not yet asserted that the two of you are different people.
Therefore a past history of truth is irrelevant until you decide what side of the fence you are on.
plornive said:I guess my mother should not have had that cancerous mole removed from her leg. Prayer would have been just somewhat less effective and much less burdensome. Thanks...
I'll try that next time
definitely less burdensome.
The msot common med mal suit is misdiagnosis of cancer. I'm glad they got your Mom's right...do yourslf a favor and don't think of medicine as more than a series of educated guesses.
MattTheSkywalker said:
Are you now saying you are NOT Nelson Montana?
You have not yet asserted that the two of you are different people.
Therefore a past history of truth is irrelevant until you decide what side of the fence you are on. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am only 2Thick on the boards.
Now apologize, please.
Monkey Pox
New member
I think he's Joe Montana.
Monkey Pox
New member
And I think prayer is supposed to help those being prayed for, not just the pray-er. That would be stupid otherwise.
Then again, people who think they know everything are the stupidest of all.
Then again, people who think they know everything are the stupidest of all.
2Thick said:
I will take you at your word. I apologize.
primetime21
Banned
2Thick said:
Maybe they were praying to the wrong god? they should have done some sort of a double blind test with jews, muslims, christians etc.. to see if one religions prayers were more effective than others.
On a side note, only morons think prayer works AND only morons think prayer does not work. If you pray for 1 billion dollars, that doesnt mean you are going to get it. No one ever suggested god answers all prayers (if they did, they too are morons).
Prayer (as was discussed a couple of days ago) has more of a placebo effect if anything. You feel like you are not hopeless in a time of hopelessness (i may have just made that word up).
Personally, i dont know if there if is a god for sure. and i certainly don't know if god listens to our prayers. ANd even if he listens, at what point does he grant our wishes.
THink of it logically. If someone believed that god answered everyones prayers then no one would die and we would all be cured from diseases and we would all be millionaires! The fact is you will never get a scientific study to state that prayer works. Because perhaps out of 100 people that were about to die, god decided to answer 1 of those peoples prayers. For whatever reasons. It would be a miracle. However, the study would ignore that as a blip on the screen and within the margin of error.
Anyway, i will leave 2thick and matt to finish off their argument.
2Thick said:
i cant remember who first came up with that philosophy
(or at least wrote it into a philosophy overview textbook) but in that it was assumed that you didnt have to pray to someone or something which is an important distinction i havent seen so far in this argument.
not arguing the results of this study. just clarifying.
Robert Jan
New member
This is the opening of a show of Hans Teeuwen, the most popular theatre comedian in Holland at the moment...
"Lord, I know, that I am sinful. I am sinful. For I am a man and man crucified your only son, who brought us the message of love forgiveness. And when I think of how that went in those days, just the whole way they did it, you just dont do that. If i just think about just the crown of thorns, have you ever tried that? try it sometime... to think of something like that, sure, but to do it.... you dont do that.
Still, I want to ask You in all humbleness to help me. I need you. I need you to help me to make this here tonight an unforgettable performance, both for me, and for everyone here tonight. And see, in a way, I too am a prophet.
*laughs*
What? With a message. Though I do think I might be funnier than your son, but...
I want to ask you, to help me make this an unforgettable night for the people here. And really, I mean this, I would Really, Really appreciate it. I have to say though- On the other hand, I might uhh, find it a bit, strange if you would help me. After all there are millions of people who hehehhe, starve and uhh pfff get tortured and uh there was a third one, are terminally ill *lol*.
And some of them pray like a madman, really, and still dont receive your, divine help. So how would it make sense if you would help Hans Teeuwen, in this small theatre... right? but thats good thats ok. doesn`t matter. if you dont shoot you always miss.
Still I know a lot of people get great help from prayer. Like athletes who always make a cross before running, and when they win they thank you, you personally. so maybe these starving people dont pray hard enough or something, I dont know.
Maybe You just concentrate some more on the succesful people on Earth, that you have a thing for that.
Not criticising or anything, i mean i understand. Imagine having to listen to the whining of billions of starving people every day... Youd go mad man, mad. They always say that your ways are undefinable. and thats true. Everything, everything that happens on this earth is part of a plan of God, a sort of huge, uhh pretty complex, plan .
The thing is, we are too puny you see, as humans, to understand this plan.
But the great thing is, when we die, then we come in Heaven, and then he explains all this.
And Im looking forward to that so much. Im so curious. I have so many questions.
So sometime I die, then i come in Heaven, and then he is there somewhere...
So I ask somebody, hey, where is he?
And then he says oh hes somewhere over there.
So then hes there and go to him and i say to him
Hey, God, I want to know this, tell me.
Why was all that necessary? All that pain, misery, childporn, hunger, disease, war, child abuse, the holocaust, why, WHY was that necessary?
then he says "well because of this and that, and so that this and that and blablabla"
then I say "Yeah of course ! sure, I get it. thats great"
"Lord, I know, that I am sinful. I am sinful. For I am a man and man crucified your only son, who brought us the message of love forgiveness. And when I think of how that went in those days, just the whole way they did it, you just dont do that. If i just think about just the crown of thorns, have you ever tried that? try it sometime... to think of something like that, sure, but to do it.... you dont do that.
Still, I want to ask You in all humbleness to help me. I need you. I need you to help me to make this here tonight an unforgettable performance, both for me, and for everyone here tonight. And see, in a way, I too am a prophet.
*laughs*
What? With a message. Though I do think I might be funnier than your son, but...
I want to ask you, to help me make this an unforgettable night for the people here. And really, I mean this, I would Really, Really appreciate it. I have to say though- On the other hand, I might uhh, find it a bit, strange if you would help me. After all there are millions of people who hehehhe, starve and uhh pfff get tortured and uh there was a third one, are terminally ill *lol*.
And some of them pray like a madman, really, and still dont receive your, divine help. So how would it make sense if you would help Hans Teeuwen, in this small theatre... right? but thats good thats ok. doesn`t matter. if you dont shoot you always miss.
Still I know a lot of people get great help from prayer. Like athletes who always make a cross before running, and when they win they thank you, you personally. so maybe these starving people dont pray hard enough or something, I dont know.
Maybe You just concentrate some more on the succesful people on Earth, that you have a thing for that.
Not criticising or anything, i mean i understand. Imagine having to listen to the whining of billions of starving people every day... Youd go mad man, mad. They always say that your ways are undefinable. and thats true. Everything, everything that happens on this earth is part of a plan of God, a sort of huge, uhh pretty complex, plan .
The thing is, we are too puny you see, as humans, to understand this plan.
But the great thing is, when we die, then we come in Heaven, and then he explains all this.
And Im looking forward to that so much. Im so curious. I have so many questions.
So sometime I die, then i come in Heaven, and then he is there somewhere...
So I ask somebody, hey, where is he?
And then he says oh hes somewhere over there.
So then hes there and go to him and i say to him
Hey, God, I want to know this, tell me.
Why was all that necessary? All that pain, misery, childporn, hunger, disease, war, child abuse, the holocaust, why, WHY was that necessary?
then he says "well because of this and that, and so that this and that and blablabla"
then I say "Yeah of course ! sure, I get it. thats great"
S
Spartacus
Guest
it did for Sox fans
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