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joetrisman
New member
I had one todaysgtslaughter said:
Post Cycle pics....Finally
- Thread starter Mac173
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mlong23
New member
It is possible to get big without gaining fat, is it likely - NO. It is very hard to do, and most people on here do not know there bodies that well and do not take the time to do the nutrition perfect.
Just because you gain some fat when you bulk up does not mean you have to stay fat nor does it mean you have to gain a lot of fat.
Fact - Expect to gain some fat (should be minimal) if you stick to a total bulker (no cardio to low cardio), and you are not a beginner. Most beginners will gain a lot of weight (most to all pure muscle) by just lifting weights a few times a week and eating a little more. Most of the people on this board (at least the anabolic board) should not be newbies lifting weights.
Just because you gain some fat when you bulk up does not mean you have to stay fat nor does it mean you have to gain a lot of fat.
Fact - Expect to gain some fat (should be minimal) if you stick to a total bulker (no cardio to low cardio), and you are not a beginner. Most beginners will gain a lot of weight (most to all pure muscle) by just lifting weights a few times a week and eating a little more. Most of the people on this board (at least the anabolic board) should not be newbies lifting weights.
silver_shadow
New member
srf, admittedly i have put on a lot of fat while bulking recently. overall since last yr, i've dropped bf - i've actually gained alot more fat and then cut. the pic is slightly distorted after resizing (ended up getting stretched wide a little) and is slightly older, since then i've lost some fat - deliberately slow though. now, you do bring up a nice question (BTW, it's nice to be back to discussions rather than flaming). so here's my take on it.
as mlong mentions, it is possible to gain muscle without fat but more unlikely to happen because it takes way more discipline then most of us can manage (remember, for most of us, bodybuilding is not our first profession). unfortunately that is just the nature of the human body. here's an interesting bit of information - sumo wrestlers, apart from honing their technique, won't do any form of weight training. they will just sit around all day and eat their ass off. their aim is to get that damn big. i read somewhere (can't remember where) that despite the lack of weight training, they actually gain muscle just by gaining fat! sounds incredible right! so am i suggesting this to you or anyone here - no way!
i believe, from personal experience and also from my friends experiences, that the slow lean gain can likely take a guy (of average height - 5'10" to 6') from an untrained state to perhaps 200 and that too is pretty tough for most. **EDIT i'm refering to natty bulking here** the point is that most peoples bodies don't want to be too much above that - it is the way we evolved, being heavier than that is just more "expensive". and that is just the point - the word "expensive" here refers to "requiring more cals to maintain" and obviously more cals to grow from there. bodybuilding is just an unnatural sport in the sense that whether you are 250 jacked or 250 on the chubbier side, you HAVE to eat an unnatural amount of food just to maintain. at the end of the day, it all depends on each individuals goals.
personally, i don't like being "fat" - however i CHOSE to eat my way to this size because of my history. i was 230 at a nice 10% over 2 yrs ago. i had a change of job - the job sucked every last bit of energy from me, i got real sick, and within just 4 mths i was like joe average at 175lbs. it was quite depressing, not to mention that i've been lending a lot of money to my friend who's in a financial mess. this has put me in a hole financially too - until the friend repays it, that will continue. and so i wanted to get back to my old self again. hence this enormous gain in weight in such a short period. i will probably go on cycle some time after jan and cut to a reasonable level. BTW, if it wasn't for my girlfriend i would have continued bulking for a little longer till i reached 250. and i do know that i could be pushing 250 today if i went all out. this is the way most bodybuilders can get reasonably big. again as i said, it's just the way the human body is, and you'd have to be a freak to be able to get to say 250 without gaining any fat. it's just a matter of choice - each guys goals are different.
as mlong mentions, it is possible to gain muscle without fat but more unlikely to happen because it takes way more discipline then most of us can manage (remember, for most of us, bodybuilding is not our first profession). unfortunately that is just the nature of the human body. here's an interesting bit of information - sumo wrestlers, apart from honing their technique, won't do any form of weight training. they will just sit around all day and eat their ass off. their aim is to get that damn big. i read somewhere (can't remember where) that despite the lack of weight training, they actually gain muscle just by gaining fat! sounds incredible right! so am i suggesting this to you or anyone here - no way!
i believe, from personal experience and also from my friends experiences, that the slow lean gain can likely take a guy (of average height - 5'10" to 6') from an untrained state to perhaps 200 and that too is pretty tough for most. **EDIT i'm refering to natty bulking here** the point is that most peoples bodies don't want to be too much above that - it is the way we evolved, being heavier than that is just more "expensive". and that is just the point - the word "expensive" here refers to "requiring more cals to maintain" and obviously more cals to grow from there. bodybuilding is just an unnatural sport in the sense that whether you are 250 jacked or 250 on the chubbier side, you HAVE to eat an unnatural amount of food just to maintain. at the end of the day, it all depends on each individuals goals.
personally, i don't like being "fat" - however i CHOSE to eat my way to this size because of my history. i was 230 at a nice 10% over 2 yrs ago. i had a change of job - the job sucked every last bit of energy from me, i got real sick, and within just 4 mths i was like joe average at 175lbs. it was quite depressing, not to mention that i've been lending a lot of money to my friend who's in a financial mess. this has put me in a hole financially too - until the friend repays it, that will continue. and so i wanted to get back to my old self again. hence this enormous gain in weight in such a short period. i will probably go on cycle some time after jan and cut to a reasonable level. BTW, if it wasn't for my girlfriend i would have continued bulking for a little longer till i reached 250. and i do know that i could be pushing 250 today if i went all out. this is the way most bodybuilders can get reasonably big. again as i said, it's just the way the human body is, and you'd have to be a freak to be able to get to say 250 without gaining any fat. it's just a matter of choice - each guys goals are different.
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blut wump
New member
You should make an effort to meet some off-season pros-in-the-making who are trying to get their basic mass into place.timtim said:
Basically, you seem to have no idea of what you're talking about. I've met too many people who panic at the thought that their half-pound annual growth might be assymetrical. Eat to grow, cut later.
Mac173
New member
silver_shadow said:
That's gotta be depressing losing that much size, hope you can get it all back. I agreee that it is hard to bulk without gaining any fat and that was some of my problem when I first started lifting. I was so strict with my diet that I think it actually hurt me and hindered gains. I have since learned how many cals my body needs to bulk but I stay like staying under 15% when bulking. I feel if I get any heavier than that I look like shit.
really? thats why i took 2 years to get as large as possible, including fat while getting up to 220 at 5'5". after 18 years in the game i have an idea of what i'm talking about.
i could care less about off season pros or wanna be pros. i take nothing away from the years of hard work/dedication these people do and the level of conditioning they are able to achieve but whats the point in looking awesome for 16 weeks a year and looking like the michelin man for the other 36? i personally think bb'ing as a sport is a joke so your example of those i should look up to doesnt even concern me, i dont care about that look.
you have your outlook and i have mine, but dont say i have no clue about what im talking about. just because i prefer to stay lean year round doesnt mean i have no clue. i've been there and done that and i chose to never waste my time or health again. i speak from experience, not out the side of my mouth.
blut wump
New member
That's more like it. A reasoned case rather than some bigotted babble.
Your words "and no one with a bb eye or dedication thinks otherwise. theres alot to be said about a person who achieves a great physique." were mostly what prompted my response. The great physiques of today come not from slow, lean gains but from heavy bulking and then cutting. Once they're in the ball-park they crave then methods might change but getting fat while bulking was part of the equation. If any of this recent post of yours is true, and I'm not suggesting otherwise, then you already know that your last post was from someone appearing to have no clue.
Your words "and no one with a bb eye or dedication thinks otherwise. theres alot to be said about a person who achieves a great physique." were mostly what prompted my response. The great physiques of today come not from slow, lean gains but from heavy bulking and then cutting. Once they're in the ball-park they crave then methods might change but getting fat while bulking was part of the equation. If any of this recent post of yours is true, and I'm not suggesting otherwise, then you already know that your last post was from someone appearing to have no clue.
blut wump
your right, my initial post was narrow minded. after being in this lifestyle for so long (i'm nearing 7 straight years of year round 365 day a year lean dieting - with caloric bumps throughout the year to continue progressing) i can really see where i messed up and made mistakes. now reaching 220 did help me reach the size level i am at now, i still dont recommend it to anyone who isnt competing. those who compete are different, they do what they must. but those who are in it for themselves and their lifestyle there is no need to ballon up. the amount of estrogenic fat i had to cut was in itself a process outside of just leaning out.
i just dont like to hear people advocating the junk bulker because, and you must know this, someone who is in the lifting game for a year or so doing a junk bulker will gain a good amount of fat on top of what was a small amount of pre-existing muscle. pretty counterproductive. i did my bulk after 10 years of training and that is the only reason it worked, i had built the base and much more prior to expanding. if you lack the maturity and experience, junk bulkers could really f with your progress.
nice to be able to agree to disagree. k to you.
your right, my initial post was narrow minded. after being in this lifestyle for so long (i'm nearing 7 straight years of year round 365 day a year lean dieting - with caloric bumps throughout the year to continue progressing) i can really see where i messed up and made mistakes. now reaching 220 did help me reach the size level i am at now, i still dont recommend it to anyone who isnt competing. those who compete are different, they do what they must. but those who are in it for themselves and their lifestyle there is no need to ballon up. the amount of estrogenic fat i had to cut was in itself a process outside of just leaning out.
i just dont like to hear people advocating the junk bulker because, and you must know this, someone who is in the lifting game for a year or so doing a junk bulker will gain a good amount of fat on top of what was a small amount of pre-existing muscle. pretty counterproductive. i did my bulk after 10 years of training and that is the only reason it worked, i had built the base and much more prior to expanding. if you lack the maturity and experience, junk bulkers could really f with your progress.
nice to be able to agree to disagree. k to you.
JKurz1
Banned
Silver - some of your facts are "off" and need to be revisted (i.e. SUmo wrestlers DO NOT sit around and eat all day, they actually train for a few hours, rest, etc..and have one large ass meal at night. THis is how they gain so much much weight and why the theory of 6 meals a day is embedded in our heads.
Truly irrelevant, but all I want to say is there is no need to get fat when putting on mass. Sure it takes time, motivation and adopted theories, but even a mere 100 cals over maintenence will lead to gains. Now nutirion, sleep, recovery, training all play a major role, but orging yourself with a ungodly amount of cals is silly and truly unecessary. I've gained about 18lbs in 2 months. More the first two weeks (from starvation i.e. post contest) and then a nice .5lbs-1 a week.....thats actually the MOST mass (clean) one can gain without gaining excess baggage.
Truly irrelevant, but all I want to say is there is no need to get fat when putting on mass. Sure it takes time, motivation and adopted theories, but even a mere 100 cals over maintenence will lead to gains. Now nutirion, sleep, recovery, training all play a major role, but orging yourself with a ungodly amount of cals is silly and truly unecessary. I've gained about 18lbs in 2 months. More the first two weeks (from starvation i.e. post contest) and then a nice .5lbs-1 a week.....thats actually the MOST mass (clean) one can gain without gaining excess baggage.
silver_shadow
New member
maybe i'm mistaken about the weight training part... memory about exactly what i read is a bit fuzzy. anyway, the point is that they eat far in excess of their maintenance and end up with a very large amount of lean muscle + a load of fat that's obvious.JKurz1 said:
about your own lean gain - you were on cycle. you cannot compare someone on cycle to someone natty. even with the conservative dosages you are using you've still got a lot more steroids in your blood than a natural athlete.
gorging yourself on a high amount of cals isn't silly if you are out to gain weight as fast as possible - but then that is a matter of choice. i wanted to get big (or regain my old weight) as quick as possible so i chose this route. now that i have achieved this, i'll cut slowly, then go on a cutting cycle sometime and take a more conservative approach to bulking in future.
I
immortalis
Guest
srf173 said:
really bro is just depends on your body type and what works best for you. You said in a post below that you cut up easily... my metabolism is so high its stupid. Its really difficult for me to maintain. But due to that high metabolism, it lets me be a little more relaxed when im bulking because I know that any "excess" fat that I put on, I can easily shed off within a month naturally. So that allows me to do some "dirty" bulking if I want...however most of the time I feel good in relation to how I am eatting, so I generally try and eat pretty clean.
O
odoyal rulez
Guest
lol A+ thread
silver_shadow
New member
depends what you call "high". i think many (ok some including your mentor biggt) here put down nearly 6k. tell them it's sillyJKurz1 said:gorging yourself on a high amount of cals isn't silly
Mac173
New member
immortalis said:
Cutting for me is so quick and easy and that's w/o doing cardio, diet only. I just hate the way it looks when I get that big. It's mostly mental, I don't know why I worry about it cause I can shed the excess quickly anyways. Do you have a hard time mantaining lean mass when you cut, because I seem to shed that along with the fat even when consuming a high amount of protein?
Bruce
New member
i agree, i hate when fat ass mofos tell me that i am too small to juice. listen it is much easier to attain 5 10 225 at 25% bf than it is to achieve 185 at 7% bf. i put no stock into the guys at my gym that are just big, not cut, just big. they have 20 inch arms but they are not cut and they have a gut. they squat a lot but they look like shit. i mean come on if i could look like T.O and only bench 30lbs total i would be happy. its all how you look to me. now on the other hand i will say that many people that look like shit give excellent advice and are some of the best trainers. look up mackey shilstone the boxing trainer legend. a tiny little white dude who has beefed up spinks, hopkins, jones jr. but i do agree i hate people that think they are a bber cause they have lift a lot but eat like shit and look ittimtim said:
silver_shadow
New member
i'm not sure how you cut - but staggering your carb intake and cutting slower helps to maintain your lean muscle. along with that, some people have to drop a little volume off their training and do some lower reps for higher poundages to maintain strength, hence muscle. i've learnt this the hard way, i've been able to shed nearly 15lbs in 2 weeks just by eating almost no carbs and only protein and fat, one day per week of carbing up. that 1 day just isn't enough for me, because i end up feeling like shit, weak and lose muscle. more regular carb ups enable me to be more conservative with cutting and maintain muscle.srf173 said:
blut wump
New member
I'm not cutting down to 5'10" for anybody.bruce410 said:
It's all a question of goals. As an older guy, I had my sliced and diced days 10 to 15 years back. Nowadays, I can enjoy some extra insulation along with the boost it gives to my lifts and energy levels in the gym. Being cut and ogling veiny abs doesn't mean much to me anymore.
When I see someone cut up in the gym they still rate an appreciative glance but my main attention is going to be on the huge guy in the squat rack. I really don't agree that it takes more commitment to be cut than it does to be large and meaty, just a different commitment. As I said, horses for courses. What we each want changes over time.
silver_shadow
New member
5'10" isn't so bad you knowblut wump said:I'm not cutting down to 5'10" for anybody.
silver_shadow
New member
yea, you just added another post to itsrf173 said:
oh wait a minit, i just did that
