Pledge of Allegiance IS Unconstitutional!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rotovibe]

see you guys...I'm otta here till later...really this time....

 

[plornive]

good point HappyScrappy,
I would have to now say that a step of faith is needed to believe in such things. That transcends logic or any other form of testing so I chose to leave that out of discussion.

Just a question. Would this step of faith involve emotion? The desire for an idea to be true?

Would it involve something that depends on the idea itself? In other words, if your faith is derived from god, then is there no way to define this step of faith in a way that would satisfy a non-believer?

Doesn't this discredit the validity of religion?

 

[plornive]

do you really know someone who doesnt steal because he doesnt want to go to hell? i dont know anyone who doesnt do something bad for that reason. people dont really believe in heaven unless they start getting worried about dying or hell until they hope for someone else to go there.

Actually, yes, I did know someone like that.

I guess it is hard to convince you that religion promotes some moral standards. I think it is historically obvious, but I don't have the time to discuss it so I will not claim to have "won" this little sub-debate. Keep in mind that I am an atheist and hope one day that religion in its current form becomes basically non-existant.

Gotta get to work!

Later everyone

 

[decem]

decem,
hey i'm just saying that everyone here has at least read and tried to analize my writing and looked at it objectively. I suggest just reading more thoroughly and offer statements that are sensitive to the scope of our conversation...we're on 'political constructs and the role of morals and it's necessity or not'
patience my rebuttals are coming...

dude.. i'm at work. i answer the phones, troubleshoot connectivity, hardware, software, remote access, nt, win2k, win xp build issues, etc etc etc... while i'm doing all this i read through and spit out comments to kill time while i talk to these dummies on the other end of the line. so i'm sorry if i looked past something in your writings or didn't look at quite as objectively.. but quite frankly.. I COULD GIVE A RAT'S ASS.. cuz i'm still spitting out better responses/posts than half these damn dummies on this board AND between the board and my phone and the computer crapola and work and entering tickets in remedy.. i'm pretty comfortable with the workload on my mind.. not too little.. not too much.. so.. where am i going with this.... oh yeah..

if i missed something.. tell me i missed something.. or point it back out again.. just reply to my posts/threads without telling me to brush up on my fucking reading skills and we'll be dandy..

 

[plornive]

it may help promote some morals but it is not univeral and it isnt the main reason people choose morality.

I think I agree with that.

I believe that social forces promote morals more than anything else. I also believe that religion and law are generally tools created by society that aid in the process.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I understand that some people have their own beliefs, or, lack thereof, but why is it that ALL OF THESE YEARS nobody seemed to have a problem with the pledge or god or anything, but now, some people have a 'unbelievable' bug up there ass to stir up some money wasting issue? next thing they're going to start saying christmas shouldn't be celebrated anymore, or shouldn't be a holiday. LIGHTEN UP, the word 'God' as used in our constitution isn't threatening to anyone. Just think of it as a word if you have to. why is america the country that always has to conform to others?

 

[plornive]

I understand that some people have their own beliefs, or, lack thereof, but why is it that ALL OF THESE YEARS nobody seemed to have a problem with the pledge or god or anything, but now, some people have a 'unbelievable' bug up there ass to stir up some money wasting issue? next thing they're going to start saying christmas shouldn't be celebrated anymore, or shouldn't be a holiday. LIGHTEN UP, the word 'God' as used in our constitution isn't threatening to anyone. Just think of it as a word if you have to. why is america the country that always has to conform to others?

Times change.

Why now? Well, perhaps you should suggest a more convenient time. All of us have been planning this date for a long time hoping it would be convenient for you.

If it is *just* a word, then *just* remove it. It's pretty cheap.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I think I agree with that.

I believe that social forces promote morals more than anything else. I also believe that religion and law are generally tools created by society that aid in the process.

I agree. If you take the ten commandments

I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

V. Honour thy father and thy mother.

VI. Thou shalt not kill.

VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

VIII. Thou shalt not steal.

IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

X. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.

It is only the 2 that are condemned by society in conjunction with being condemned by religion that religious people think god will punish you for, the VI & VIIIth commandment. You can break the other 8 with impunity, and i think the reason is that by breaking them you aren't threatening the social fabric. But the 6 & 9 are necessary for social order.

Also the bible (i'm using that religious document because this is a judeo-christian society) condemns a multitude of things, but usually it is only those things that contradict social order that religion gets angry over. Divorce is condemned in the bible directly after homosexuality, but religious service doesn't say divorcees will go to hell. Also, things like selling drugs or committing suicide aren't condemned in the bible, however refusing to obey the government or shaving your beard are. But it is only the actions that threaten social order that religious folk think god will be up in arms about (usually).

 

[spongebob]

It promotes conformity and abrahamian religions, specifically christianity. I don't want my future child to be subjected to this.

Actually, I think President Bush and congress are being crybabies as much as the person who filed the lawsuit. I could justifiably say that many of the people who are voicing their outrage at the decision are reactionary crybabies.

if you are conformed in any way by those two words, then yes, you are a crybaby. i said the pledge when i was younger and i definitely did not conform. thats a crock of shit.

as far as your future child, i hope he/she is alot stronger in mind to avoid being conformed like you.

<sponge turns and walks away>

 

[RyanH]

the sponge is back.