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Patriot Act:::Violating 4th Amendment?

rocky_road

New member
I'm writing a pursuasive argument about this, and I'd like to hear your opinions. Specifically, do you think that the government should be able to spy on its citizens, and if so, under what circumstances and with whose authority should government do it?

I believe it's right to compromise individuals' rights for the security of the country.

I'm looking for examples or input that support my opinion.

Of course you can state your own opinion even if it is opposite but this wouldn't really help me much since I have preety much decided this is the side I want to debate.
 
rocky_road said:
I'm writing a pursuasive argument about this, and I'd like to hear your opinions. Specifically, do you think that the government should be able to spy on its citizens, and if so, under what circumstances and with whose authority should government do it?

I believe it's right to compromise individuals' rights for the security of the country.

I'm looking for examples or input that support my opinion.

Of course you can state your own opinion even if it is opposite but this wouldn't really help me much since I have preety much decided this is the side I want to debate.
they should be able to spy on underaged girls change; thats about it
 
no, my buisness is mine..No one elses..the government is nothing but average joes with a damned title!
 
Well, you're arguing for the rights of the state over individual rights...good luck....
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"- Benjamin Franklin.

Would you like your mom searching your room everyday for drugs and other "bad things" as well as reading your diary because she is looking out for your safety(when she's not passed out)?
 
There is precedent, Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus in the Civil War. Truman established the NSA to prevent espionage internally and even before that look up Operation Shamrock during WW2.
 
JavaGuru said:
Well, you're arguing for the rights of the state over individual rights...good luck....
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"- Benjamin Franklin.

Would you like your mom searching your room everyday for drugs and other "bad things" as well as reading your diary because she is looking out for your safety(when she's not passed out)?

Bad analogy Java. whether you like it or not she has the right as long as you are living under her rule.

What's the problem with the gov't spying on suspects? They do it with criminals under our current laws. I see it as no different.

Don't give them a reason to spy on you. I.E. Don't give them a reason to investigate you.

Bunch of criminals you all are here.
 
rocky_road said:
I'm writing a pursuasive argument about this, and I'd like to hear your opinions. Specifically, do you think that the government should be able to spy on its citizens, and if so, under what circumstances and with whose authority should government do it?

I believe it's right to compromise individuals' rights for the security of the country.

I'm looking for examples or input that support my opinion.

Of course you can state your own opinion even if it is opposite but this wouldn't really help me much since I have preety much decided this is the side I want to debate.

Do you have a copy of the new patriot act going through legislation?? It disables the bill of rights and much of the constitution... I'll e-mail it to you if you don't. Seriously.

Here's a "summary" of it:

A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II
By Alex Jones
www.infowars.com
(Posted Feb 10, 2003)

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87-page bill.


*Note: On February 10, 2003 I discovered that not only was there a house version that had been covertly brought to Hastert, but that many provisions of the now public Patriot Act II had already been introduced as pork barrel riders on Senate Bill S. 22. Dozens of subsections and even the titles of the subsections are identical to those in the House version. This is very important because it catches the Justice Department in a bald-faced lie. The Justice Department claimed that the secret legislation brought into the House was only for study, and that at this time there was no intention to try and pass it. Now upon reading S. 22, it is clear that the leadership of the Senate is fully aware of the Patriot Act II, and have passed these riders out of their committees into the full bill. I spent two hours scanning through S. 22 and, let me tell you, it is a nightmare for anyone who loves liberty. It even contains the Our Lady of Peace Act that registers all gun owners. It bans the private sale of all firearms, creates a Federal ballistics database, and much more.

There are other bills in the Senate that grant the Federal government sweeping powers. S.45 states in section one that the office for State and local government coordination for Homeland Security will no longer just oversee, but that now local cities critical functions will be headed by a Federal director. On Tuesday, February 11th, we noted a story in The Times-Picayune with the headline: Nagin announces major overhaul of City Hall --New Homeland Security office to oversee cops, firemen, emergency agency. The Federal power-grab taking place is widespread and all Americans must mobilize to resist it.

Another interesting bill is S. 16. S. 16 is a smorgasbord of Federal funding and control over local police departments and needs to be examined closely.

S. 89, The Universal National Service Act of 2003 is the hallmark of an authoritarian society. The description of the bill is, "To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." We have looked at some of the programs that the Federal government has already been setting up for service here in the "homeland" and they include East German-style tattletale squads of every type, which are just basically a super TIPS program. The nightmare goes on and on. Check it out for yourself.

The Patriot Act II bill itself is stamped "Confidential -Not for Distribution." Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.


It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:


1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn’t vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House’s own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offence.


2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.


I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity.


Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:


SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration’s “enemy combatant” definition to all American citizens who “may” have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is “any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.” ) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn’t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.


Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person “had inferred from conduct” that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the “enemy combatant” terrorist designation.


SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.


SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of “suspected terrorists” and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as “terrorist.” These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.


SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the “enemy combatant” designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: “this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.”

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the “enemy combatant” designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government’s newly announced power of “surveillance without a court order.”

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, “thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.”

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to “determine” if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners’ and medical examiners’ operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton’s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to “stop other unlawful activities.” It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures – has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled “Providing Material Support to Terrorism.” The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or “other criminals” to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates “lifetime parole” (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.

There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

You can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and “those who carry around pocket Constitutions.”
 
So you think that it's right for the government to be able to track how and where you spend your money?

Which web sites you surf and how often?

Who you talk to on the phone?

What books / magazines you read?


All this, not because they have evidence against you, but because they think that you or someone you know might be doing something.
 
mountain muscle said:
Don't give them a reason to spy on you. I.E. Don't give them a reason to investigate you.

Bunch of criminals you all are here.

And what would be the criteria for reason to be investigated? Who defines suspicious activity? And when did suspicious become criminal...because we aren't talking about criminal.

Criminals are investigated under the pretense of having committed a criminal act...an act that has already happened...so compound the issue of investigating before a crime is committed with racial profiling and a very, very vague notion of what is "suspicion" and you have hairy things going on. Because suspicion will eventually (and in some cases already has) expand beyond criminal intent. It will also encompass morality...thus, projecting a set idea of morality on a populace.
 
mountain muscle said:
Bad analogy Java. whether you like it or not she has the right as long as you are living under her rule.

What's the problem with the gov't spying on suspects? They do it with criminals under our current laws. I see it as no different.

Don't give them a reason to spy on you. I.E. Don't give them a reason to investigate you.

Bunch of criminals you all are here.
It was a good analogy because the government wants to bypass the normal procedures and treat citizens like minors in their parent's house. Likewise, just because the government and the Supreme Court have been eroding personal freedom since the 1970's doesn't make it right. Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus and Roosevelts imprisoning US citizens of Japanese descent without trial were both clearly violations of personal liberty.

I'll quote a founding father again, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"- Benjamin Franklin.
 
Just realized we're doing this chicas homework for her. So now I leave thread.
 
novamanms said:
And what would be the criteria for reason to be investigated? Who defines suspicious activity? And when did suspicious become criminal...because we aren't talking about criminal.

Criminals are investigated under the pretense of having committed a criminal act...an act that has already happened...so compound the issue of investigating before a crime is committed with racial profiling and a very, very vague notion of what is "suspicion" and you have hairy things going on. Because suspicion will eventually (and in some cases already has) expand beyond criminal intent. It will also encompass morality...thus, projecting a set idea of morality on a populace.
This is a front and back image of a tri-fold FBI brochure... according to this, who isn't a "terrorist"?? The verification letter is posted below the pictures to authenticate it.





>Source:
>Sierra Times
>http://www.SierraTimes.com/
>
>The FBI, Sheriff & County Attorney are Going After "Constitutional Terrorists"
>
>by Angel Shamaya - KeepAndBearArms.com
>
>The Phoenix Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Maricopa County
>Sheriff's Office (Greater Phoenix, Arizona), and the Maricopa County
>Attorney are handing our flyers asking the recipients to help them
>fight domestic terrorism. Called the Joint Terrorism Task Force, the
>program was created, presumably, to help preserve the American
>way of life, right? - Nope.
>
>http://www.keepandbeararms.com/angel/articles/consterrorist.htm
>KeepandBearArms
>
>Public Servants Going After "Constitutional Terrorists"?
>by Angel Shamaya
>
>November 14, 2001
>
>KeepAndBearArms.com -- The Phoenix Federal Bureau of Investigation, the
>Maricopa County Sheriff's Office (Greater Phoenix, Arizona), and the
>Maricopa County Attorney are handing out flyers asking the recipients to
>help them fight domestic terrorism. I received one of these flyers this
>past weekend at the Arizona "Freedom in the 21st Century" gathering. One
>member of the Sheriff's Posse Reserve in attendance said he'd seen the
>flyer before and that it is legitimate. [I will be getting verification
>before this report goes live on our site, including recording phone calls
>to these people.]
>
>Called the Joint Terrorism Task Force, the program was created,
>presumably, to help preserve the American way of life, right? In part,
>probably. However, it also looks like it's a disinformation campaign to
>paint least a few groups of Real Americans as domestic terrorists. Among
>other things, the dynamic trio is asking people:
>
>"If you encounter any of the following, Call the Joint Terrorism Task Force":
>
>"defenders of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN"
>
>[That describes many civil liberties groups and most gun rights and
>American Sovereignty groups in existence -- and, by extension, their members.]
>
>"Groups of individuals engaging in para-military training"
>
>[Such as, perhaps, shooting your semi-automatic "assault weapon" with some
>friends out in the desert?"]
>
>Also being sought are "Common Law Movement Proponents" who
>
>"Request authority for a stop"
>
>[That's illegal now?]
>
>"Make numerous references to the US Constitution"
>
>[That's illegal now?]
>
>"Attempt to 'police the police'"
>
>[That's illegal now?]
>
>And let's not forget the other potential "domestic terrorists" being
>sought. We really need to watch out for these people:
>
>"Lone Individuals"
>
>[Do you meet that description?]
>
>"Rebels"
>
>[Know any gun rights activist who doesn't have at least a touch of rebel
>pumping through the old bloodstream?]
>
>Be sure and notice the following two things on the flyer, as well:
>
>1) There is NOT ONE MENTION of "Islamic Fundamentalists" anywhere.
>
>2) Defenders of the US Constitution and the common law from which it grew
>are being classified on the same level as the bottom-feeding Skinheads,
>Nazis and the KKK.
>
>
>READ THE FLYER FOR YOURSELF
>
>The flyer is a tri-fold, so you'll have to turn your head sideways to read
>one of the sections.
>
>Front Page
>http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
>
>Back Page
>http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
>
>NOTE: The far right side of the above "Front Page" is the actual front of
>the tri-fold flyer.
>The far left side of the above "Back Page" -- the part that mentions the
>'defenders of the
>US Constitution' -- is the inside flap... the first thing you see when you
>open the flyer.
>
>CONTACT THE PEOPLE PUSHING THIS "PROGRAM"
>
>FBI Phoenix Office
>
>Website: http://phoenix.fbi.gov/
> Email: phoenix_at_fbi.gov
> Special Agent in Charge - Guadalupe Gonzalez
>
>FBI's "Civil Rights" Website:
> http://phoenix.fbi.gov/contact/fo/phnx/pxcivil.htm
>
>FBI's "Counterterrorism" Website:
> http://phoenix.fbi.gov/contact/fo/phnx/pxterr.htm
>
>FBI Arizona Regional Offices:
> http://phoenix.fbi.gov/contact/fo/phnx/pxterrit.htm
>
>The Maricopa Sheriff's Office
>
>Website: http://www.mcso.org/
>
 
novamanms said:
And what would be the criteria for reason to be investigated? Who defines suspicious activity? And when did suspicious become criminal...because we aren't talking about criminal.

Criminals are investigated under the pretense of having committed a criminal act...an act that has already happened...so compound the issue of investigating before a crime is committed with racial profiling and a very, very vague notion of what is "suspicion" and you have hairy things going on. Because suspicion will eventually (and in some cases already has) expand beyond criminal intent. It will also encompass morality...thus, projecting a set idea of morality on a populace.

Hmm, the current law in the land would be a good criteria, you think?
Suspicious activity? Those in charge of regulating the law.

Do you wait until after a terrorist attack to start an investigation or should you try to prevent it before it occurs?
Now this, like all laws, has a potential to be abused.

The patriot act has some serious flaws, but how do you propose we protect our country?
 
mountain muscle said:
Hmm, the current law in the land would be a good criteria, you think?
Suspicious activity? Those in charge of regulating the law.

Do you wait until after a terrorist attack to start an investigation or should you try to prevent it before it occurs?
Now this, like all laws, has a potential to be abused.

The patriot act has some serious flaws, but how do you propose we protect our country?
Criminal law has struggled with this for years, driving black in a wealthy neighborhood is suspicious activity for most cops. Probable cause is the best we have....make them establish cause with evidence. We may be safer in a totalitarian state but is it worth it? How many men have died in the name of personal liberty for this country?
 
JavaGuru said:
Criminal law has struggled with this for years, driving black in a wealthy neighborhood is suspicious activity for most cops. Probable cause is the best we have....make them establish cause with evidence. We may be safer in a totalitarian state but is it worth it? How many men have died in the name of personal liberty for this country?

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
 
JavaGuru said:
Criminal law has struggled with this for years, driving black in a wealthy neighborhood is suspicious activity for most cops. Probable cause is the best we have....make them establish cause with evidence. We may be safer in a totalitarian state but is it worth it? How many men have died in the name of personal liberty for this country?

It is a tough position to be in now eh?

Is it worth it to be totally free and face daily bombings?

I am playing devils advocate, but it is easier for people to criticize than come up with a solution. I don't have one. Good reason for discourse though.
 
mountain muscle said:
It is a tough position to be in now eh?

Is it worth it to be totally free and face daily bombings?

I am playing devils advocate, but it is easier for people to criticize than come up with a solution. I don't have one. Good reason for discourse though.

In the councils of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex.. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together

— President Eisenhower – January 1961
 
mountain muscle said:
It is a tough position to be in now eh?

Is it worth it to be totally free and face daily bombings?

I am playing devils advocate, but it is easier for people to criticize than come up with a solution. I don't have one. Good reason for discourse though.

Iagree that the debate is necessary, but I doubt Benjamin Franklin contemplated the capabilities of a thermonuclear device when he had personal liberty and temporary safety on the scales.
 
mountain muscle said:
It is a tough position to be in now eh?

Is it worth it to be totally free and face daily bombings?

I am playing devils advocate, but it is easier for people to criticize than come up with a solution. I don't have one. Good reason for discourse though.
There is a price to pay for "freedom." Do you prefer to be terrorized by your own government or a loosley organized group of terrorists?
 
redguru said:
I doubt Benjamin Franklin contemplated the capabilities of a thermonuclear device when he had personal liberty and temporary safety on the scales.
Hence the Eisenhower quote.
 
The problem you have with "suspicous activity" is the nebulous nature of it.

It gives them Carte Blanche to investigate anybody that they please.

The investigators are almost entirely Republicans. The investigatees are very frequently Democrats.

Its a power struggle made possible by a party that gained too much power for its own good. Their greed is the seed, the water, and the fertilizer for their fall eventual back into obscurity.

If I had the ability to investigate, I would find that the arms of the Carlyle group are major suppliers of the wealth of technology that the encroaching police state will consume under the veneer of public safety.

The multi faceted relationships of the members of the Carlyle group and the Bush administration are so well known and thoroughly documented that their should be no need to pontificate further. Basically they are the best friends, fathers, and old dear friends of the President, Secretary of Defense, and the V.P.
 
redguru said:
Iagree that the debate is necessary, but I doubt Benjamin Franklin contemplated the capabilities of a thermonuclear device when he had personal liberty and temporary safety on the scales.

Good point Red.


Beefcake, nice quote but again no solutions from you. You can take jabs at the MI complex but you should indict all lobbyists as well. Unfortunately govt. is now a business and investment for those in it, It does not serve the people.

Still we are left with the difficult question of how to protect ourselves and our freedoms as well.
 
rocky_road said:
I'm writing a pursuasive argument about this, and I'd like to hear your opinions. Specifically, do you think that the government should be able to spy on its citizens, and if so, under what circumstances and with whose authority should government do it?

I believe it's right to compromise individuals' rights for the security of the country.

I'm looking for examples or input that support my opinion.

Of course you can state your own opinion even if it is opposite but this wouldn't really help me much since I have preety much decided this is the side I want to debate.

What 4th Amendment???
There are people who ask the question "Why do you need privacy?"
 
beefcake28 said:
Do you have a copy of the new patriot act going through legislation?? It disables the bill of rights and much of the constitution... I'll e-mail it to you if you don't. Seriously.

Here's a "summary" of it:

A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II
By Alex Jones
www.infowars.com
(Posted Feb 10, 2003)

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by saying that President Bush was seizing dictatorial control.

On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87-page bill.


*Note: On February 10, 2003 I discovered that not only was there a house version that had been covertly brought to Hastert, but that many provisions of the now public Patriot Act II had already been introduced as pork barrel riders on Senate Bill S. 22. Dozens of subsections and even the titles of the subsections are identical to those in the House version. This is very important because it catches the Justice Department in a bald-faced lie. The Justice Department claimed that the secret legislation brought into the House was only for study, and that at this time there was no intention to try and pass it. Now upon reading S. 22, it is clear that the leadership of the Senate is fully aware of the Patriot Act II, and have passed these riders out of their committees into the full bill. I spent two hours scanning through S. 22 and, let me tell you, it is a nightmare for anyone who loves liberty. It even contains the Our Lady of Peace Act that registers all gun owners. It bans the private sale of all firearms, creates a Federal ballistics database, and much more.

There are other bills in the Senate that grant the Federal government sweeping powers. S.45 states in section one that the office for State and local government coordination for Homeland Security will no longer just oversee, but that now local cities critical functions will be headed by a Federal director. On Tuesday, February 11th, we noted a story in The Times-Picayune with the headline: Nagin announces major overhaul of City Hall --New Homeland Security office to oversee cops, firemen, emergency agency. The Federal power-grab taking place is widespread and all Americans must mobilize to resist it.

Another interesting bill is S. 16. S. 16 is a smorgasbord of Federal funding and control over local police departments and needs to be examined closely.

S. 89, The Universal National Service Act of 2003 is the hallmark of an authoritarian society. The description of the bill is, "To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." We have looked at some of the programs that the Federal government has already been setting up for service here in the "homeland" and they include East German-style tattletale squads of every type, which are just basically a super TIPS program. The nightmare goes on and on. Check it out for yourself.

The Patriot Act II bill itself is stamped "Confidential -Not for Distribution." Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.


It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:


1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn’t vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House’s own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offence.


2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.


I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity.


Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:


SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration’s “enemy combatant” definition to all American citizens who “may” have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is “any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.” ) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn’t broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.


Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person “had inferred from conduct” that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the “enemy combatant” terrorist designation.


SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.


SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of “suspected terrorists” and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as “terrorist.” These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.


SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the “enemy combatant” designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: “this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.”

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the “enemy combatant” designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government’s newly announced power of “surveillance without a court order.”

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, “thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.”

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to “determine” if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners’ and medical examiners’ operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton’s special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to “stop other unlawful activities.” It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures – has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled “Providing Material Support to Terrorism.” The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or “other criminals” to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates “lifetime parole” (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.

There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

You can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and “those who carry around pocket Constitutions.”
fuck off
 
Testosterone boy said:
If I had the ability to investigate, I would find that the arms of the Carlyle group are major suppliers of the wealth of technology that the encroaching police state will consume under the veneer of public safety.

The multi faceted relationships of the members of the Carlyle group and the Bush administration are so well known and thoroughly documented that their should be no need to pontificate further. Basically they are the best friends, fathers, and old dear friends of the President, Secretary of Defense, and the V.P.

You have no idea how true this is... :worried:
 
mountain muscle said:
Good point Red.


Beefcake, nice quote but again no solutions from you. You can take jabs at the MI complex but you should indict all lobbyists as well. Unfortunately govt. is now a business and investment for those in it, It does not serve the people.

Still we are left with the difficult question of how to protect ourselves and our freedoms as well.

What freedoms are you referring to?


We lost our freedoms shortly after Bush said that "Freedom was attacked etc"

You have absolute freedom to praise our loss of freedom and the guarantors of that loss.
 
Testosterone boy said:
What freedoms are you referring to?


We lost our freedoms shortly after Bush said that "Freedom was attacked etc"

You have absolute freedom to praise our loss of freedom and the guarantors of that loss.

Hang on, I hear the black hilos coming again.
 
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It comes down to what is "unreasonable" and that has to be determined by the court.

Now in an age where keystrokes and voice data travels all over the planet, and we know this information can be sorted, stored, and searched... Isn't it fair to say that we aren't taking "reasonable" means to protect it in the first place? I mean, if you want to hide a note under your matress, you're obviously taking steps to protect the information. If instead, you decide to store your note taped to your windshield, is it equally "reaonsably" protected?

If I leave an open beer on my dashboard during a routine traffic stop and the cop sees the can, is him peering into my vehicle an "unreasonable" search?

Also... we (edit: DO... typeo) have a constitutional right to privacy. That was decided by the supreme court a long time ago.

Thanks!
 
It's all about the illuminati. Oh, and the Greys. T-boy wont respond, it's almost time for coast2coastam radio on Shortwave.
 
mountain muscle said:
Good point Red.


Beefcake, nice quote but again no solutions from you. You can take jabs at the MI complex but you should indict all lobbyists as well. Unfortunately govt. is now a business and investment for those in it, It does not serve the people.

Still we are left with the difficult question of how to protect ourselves and our freedoms as well.
I agree. I was merely posting quotes that are somewhat relevant, or maybe just interesting. I was not injecting my personal input because I admittedly don't know as much about government policy as I would like to. My contemplation of a real world solution would be a waste of time, as there are obviously level-headed people there who are much more qualified than I am.


:)
 
beefcake28 said:
I agree. I was merely posting quotes that are somewhat relevant, or maybe just interesting. I was not injecting my personal input because I admittedly don't know as much about government policy as I would like to. My contemplation of a real world solution would be a waste of time, as there are obviously level-headed people there who are much more qualified than I am.


:)

:)

Shouldn't you be heading to the Hill? What replaced Potters? Used to bounce there and at the Boulder Brewery.
I would love to move back to Boulder. You better be enjoying yourself brother.
 
beefcake28 said:
I agree. I was merely posting quotes that are somewhat relevant, or maybe just interesting. I was not injecting my personal input because I admittedly don't know as much about government policy as I would like to. My contemplation of a real world solution would be a waste of time, as there are obviously level-headed people there who are much more qualified than I am.


:)

If the gov't wants to spy on you , they don't need or follow any policy.
The 4th Amendment supporters need to have some clear lines drawn.

http://www.privacy.org/archives/001589.html#001589
 
mountain muscle said:
Hang on, I hear the black hilos coming again.

I know a person who tried to use the Freedom of Information Act to get information from one of the organizations that is heavily involved in the subjest of this thread.

Two things happened quickly:

1) The computer that this person used to file the request became unusable for several minutes after every boot up because msn messenger is using 99-100% of his computers resources. He has timed screen shots to prove this.*

2) He received a letter with this explanantion: "Thus, your request is denied pursuant to the first exemption of the FIOA, which provides that the FOIA does not apply to matters that are specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive Order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign relations and are properly classified pursuant to such Executive Order.

*italics mine*


Again I ask you, what freedoms are you referring to?

*The screen shot program was requested 12 times before opening because the computer is essentially unusable until msn. messenger eventually backs down to using less that 95% of the computers resources. So...there are screen shots every minute of 84-92% of the computers resources being consumed by their infiltration and consumption of personal information.
 
Testosterone boy said:
I know a person who tried to use the Freedom of Information Act to get information from one of the organizations that is heavily involved in the subjest of this thread.

Two things happened quickly:

1) The computer that this person used to file the request became unusable for several minutes after every boot up because msn messenger is using 99-100% of his computers resources. He has timed screen shots to prove this.

2) He received a letter with this explanantion: "Thus, your request is denied pursuant to the first exemption of the FIOA, which provides that the FOIA does not apply to matters that are specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive Order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign relations and are properly classified pursuant to such Executive Order.

*italics mine*


Again I ask you, what freedoms are you referring to?

Freedom of speech for one.

You proved my point in All of your posts. Thanks.
 
mountain muscle said:
:)

Shouldn't you be heading to the Hill? What replaced Potters? Used to bounce there and at the Boulder Brewery.
I would love to move back to Boulder. You better be enjoying yourself brother.
Not tonight... I had an Honors Organic Chemistr II mid-term due today that I have spent the last week, and the majority of last night on. It was brutal. I'm just relaxing, having a couple beers, and going to bed early tonight...

:beer:
 
I'm addressing two people here. First, beefcake. I'm under the impression you are agreeing with me, right? Because what you're showing with that flyer is actually the sort of thing I was talking about...and mind you I said racial profiling, I never mentioned a specific race. I would argue the right wing white extremists are among the most criminally active terrorist groups in the United States. However, unlike in numerous places in Europe...we have the freedom to hate (so long as we don't act on it).

Second, mountain_muscle. We defend this country be prosecuting and imprisoning criminal syndicates that aid and abet (?) criminal acts...and defense of this country isn't solely us chasing after everyone. The true danger of relgious fundamentalism in acts of terror is simply that it can't be defeated with acts of violence (justified or not). Until we learn to tolerate and cooperate with other cultures, we will further the cycle of violence with our acts. Guantanimo is a prime example. One has to ask how many detained were terrorists before...and how many will be after they are released? So what do we do? Never release them? Kill them off?

No. Defense of our country is this and simply this. It is fighting against CRIMINAL threats to freedom...and a greater understanding and nurturing of the attitudes roots. Through diplomacy and only diplomacy will there be peace.

The interesting thing to note here is that you state the question of should we wait until the act is committed or investigate before it is committed. If we had listened to warnings of legitimate criminal activity and locked down on CRIMINAL activity instead of casting such a broad net, a majority of terrorism would be prevented. Yet, the method that you are arguing against is actually more like the way we handle it. We sniff around, ruffle feathers, ruin the lives of otherwise normal people...people that escape the radar because our invasions have twisted them (but have never been criminal before) and connect with legitimate criminal sources (that we could instead be fighting for the safety of the world), and then we try to figure out what happened in the aftermath. Because the way we do things is no less than hubris that we as conceptually "free" Americans will have to pay for.

And I'm going to go out on an extreme limb here and say that I would rather die knowing I was free in an act of terrorism than living eternally "safe" and frightened of the status quo.

...And I'm not even a liberal...lol

But seriously, though...and I'll shut up entirely after this. Should we not be fighting against action rather than thought? And action that hurts others, mind you. Harmless personal choice aside.
 
mountain muscle said:
Freedom of speech for one.

You proved my point in All of your posts. Thanks.


Dude, I have no true freedom of speech. I dig a deeper hole every time I question the machinations of this administration.

Did you read my post or are you reading strategy from a manual?
 
Testosterone boy said:
I know a person who tried to use the Freedom of Information Act to get information from one of the organizations that is heavily involved in the subjest of this thread.

Two things happened quickly:

1) The computer that this person used to file the request became unusable for several minutes after every boot up because msn messenger is using 99-100% of his computers resources. He has timed screen shots to prove this.*

2) He received a letter with this explanantion: "Thus, your request is denied pursuant to the first exemption of the FIOA, which provides that the FOIA does not apply to matters that are specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive Order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign relations and are properly classified pursuant to such Executive Order.

*italics mine*


Again I ask you, what freedoms are you referring to?

*The screen shot program was requested 12 times before opening because the computer is essentially unusable until msn. messenger eventually backs down to using less that 95% of the computers resources. So...there are screen shots every minute of 84-92% of the computers resources being consumed by their infiltration and consumption of personal information.

LOL, he probably had enabled the memory dump to microsoft upon a lockup. The debugging info is sent to microsoft at reboot.

EL OH FUGGIN EL, that this is some conspiracy
 
while spying and such on citizens is illegal, not sure why under the 4th, I think they should be allowed to monitor and use information to respond to emergencies. In a court of law, any unauthorized information obtained would not be admissable, thus protecting your rights, but, if they stop a major terrorist attack who needs the tapes for evidence.

Now, if they happen to use it and you are dealin and they come to your house with the warrent because of illegal taps? well, they have over stepped their bounds.

Oh, I'm OWNED. change color. LOL
 
Testosterone boy said:
Dude, I have no true freedom of speech. I dig a deeper hole every time I question the machinations of this administration.

Did you read my post or are you reading strategy from a manual?


2nd edition actually.

WTF are you talking about though? Every post you make the sinister administration silences you more?

I read your post and still wonder if you actually believe that brother.
 
The real solution involves a massive upheaval of both foreign and domestic policy, as well as rectifying mistakes in international politics and trade we have made over the last one hundred years. Until then, we are merely blocking trains with tampons.
 
redguru said:
LOL, he probably had enabled the memory dump to microsoft upon a lockup. The debugging info is sent to microsoft at reboot.

EL OH FUGGIN EL, that this is some conspiracy

The lock up has been going on for at least 1 1/2 weeks now. That is a large reason why he has been getting other computers on line.
 
novamanms said:
The real solution involves a massive upheaval of both foreign and domestic policy, as well as rectifying mistakes in international politics and trade we have made over the last one hundred years. Until then, we are merely blocking trains with tampons.


Are we ready for United States....Part Deux?
 
novamanms said:
I'm addressing two people here. First, beefcake. I'm under the impression you are agreeing with me, right? Because what you're showing with that flyer is actually the sort of thing I was talking about...and mind you I said racial profiling, I never mentioned a specific race. I would argue the right wing white extremists are among the most criminally active terrorist groups in the United States. However, unlike in numerous places in Europe...we have the freedom to hate (so long as we don't act on it).

Second, mountain_muscle. We defend this country be prosecuting and imprisoning criminal syndicates that aid and abet (?) criminal acts...and defense of this country isn't solely us chasing after everyone. The true danger of relgious fundamentalism in acts of terror is simply that it can't be defeated with acts of violence (justified or not). Until we learn to tolerate and cooperate with other cultures, we will further the cycle of violence with our acts. Guantanimo is a prime example. One has to ask how many detained were terrorists before...and how many will be after they are released? So what do we do? Never release them? Kill them off?

No. Defense of our country is this and simply this. It is fighting against CRIMINAL threats to freedom...and a greater understanding and nurturing of the attitudes roots. Through diplomacy and only diplomacy will there be peace.

The interesting thing to note here is that you state the question of should we wait until the act is committed or investigate before it is committed. If we had listened to warnings of legitimate criminal activity and locked down on CRIMINAL activity instead of casting such a broad net, a majority of terrorism would be prevented. Yet, the method that you are arguing against is actually more like the way we handle it. We sniff around, ruffle feathers, ruin the lives of otherwise normal people...people that escape the radar because our invasions have twisted them (but have never been criminal before) and connect with legitimate criminal sources (that we could instead be fighting for the safety of the world), and then we try to figure out what happened in the aftermath. Because the way we do things is no less than hubris that we as conceptually "free" Americans will have to pay for.

And I'm going to go out on an extreme limb here and say that I would rather die knowing I was free in an act of terrorism than living eternally "safe" and frightened of the status quo.

...And I'm not even a liberal...lol

But seriously, though...and I'll shut up entirely after this. Should we not be fighting against action rather than thought? And action that hurts others, mind you. Harmless personal choice aside.

What irks me about the flyer is who can be classified as a terrorist...

defenders of the consitiution?
fictitious license plates?
no license plates?
fictitious drivers license?
no drivers license?
people who refuse to identify themselves?
making numberous references to the constitution?
claim driving is a right, not a privilege?

and my personal favorite,

lone individuals?

Obviously some of those could have implications of criminal activity, but since when should any of those singlehandedly classify you as a terrorist against the United States, much less warrent contacting the FBI?? While there is some racial profiling in the flyer, much of it is just obsurd.
 
Yes, it is a mass conspiracy against you and our like to subdue you and put you down. you have no voice anylonger. How dare you speak out against the administration. They, and only THEY, know what is right for you, for us. Don't you understand, they are protecting us, you from THEM. If they must, then they will silence you. So be it in the interest of security and freedom of the US.
 
novamanms said:
I'm addressing two people here. First, beefcake. I'm under the impression you are agreeing with me, right? Because what you're showing with that flyer is actually the sort of thing I was talking about...and mind you I said racial profiling, I never mentioned a specific race. I would argue the right wing white extremists are among the most criminally active terrorist groups in the United States. However, unlike in numerous places in Europe...we have the freedom to hate (so long as we don't act on it).

Second, mountain_muscle. We defend this country be prosecuting and imprisoning criminal syndicates that aid and abet (?) criminal acts...and defense of this country isn't solely us chasing after everyone. The true danger of relgious fundamentalism in acts of terror is simply that it can't be defeated with acts of violence (justified or not). Until we learn to tolerate and cooperate with other cultures, we will further the cycle of violence with our acts. Guantanimo is a prime example. One has to ask how many detained were terrorists before...and how many will be after they are released? So what do we do? Never release them? Kill them off?

No. Defense of our country is this and simply this. It is fighting against CRIMINAL threats to freedom...and a greater understanding and nurturing of the attitudes roots. Through diplomacy and only diplomacy will there be peace.

The interesting thing to note here is that you state the question of should we wait until the act is committed or investigate before it is committed. If we had listened to warnings of legitimate criminal activity and locked down on CRIMINAL activity instead of casting such a broad net, a majority of terrorism would be prevented. Yet, the method that you are arguing against is actually more like the way we handle it. We sniff around, ruffle feathers, ruin the lives of otherwise normal people...people that escape the radar because our invasions have twisted them (but have never been criminal before) and connect with legitimate criminal sources (that we could instead be fighting for the safety of the world), and then we try to figure out what happened in the aftermath. Because the way we do things is no less than hubris that we as conceptually "free" Americans will have to pay for.

And I'm going to go out on an extreme limb here and say that I would rather die knowing I was free in an act of terrorism than living eternally "safe" and frightened of the status quo.

...And I'm not even a liberal...lol

But seriously, though...and I'll shut up entirely after this. Should we not be fighting against action rather than thought? And action that hurts others, mind you. Harmless personal choice aside.

Good post and points. Action against thought? Should the police be fighting against only action and not thought? A man with a gun pacing outside of a bank should only be acted on after he proceeds inside?


The world we live in dictates that we come up with a better way to protect ourselves. Is the patriot act it? NO. I am curious as to why you think a majority of terrorist activity could be prevented, given your points. Criminal activity can be handled in the same manner then?

Hindsight is always humorous. I am looking for a resolution. Give me ideas, not reasons why things are not working. This is a difficult task. but everyone seems to think they can point a finger and assess blame bvut offer no solutions.

Your thought in diplomacy is admirable. but we face a resolute enemy, who in their eyes, are fighting for god. How diplomatic do you think they are?
 
Testosterone boy said:
Are we ready for United States....Part Deux?
If anything, it will be a nostalgic return to some of the ideals that this country were based on. I'm not talking about revolution...simply awareness, consideration, and cultural movement in the right direction.
 
mountain muscle said:
Good post and points. Action against thought? Should the police be fighting against only action and not thought? A man with a gun pacing outside of a bank should only be acted on after he proceeds inside?


The world we live in dictates that we come up with a better way to protect ourselves. Is the patriot act it? NO. I am curious as to why you think a majority of terrorist activity could be prevented, given your points. Criminal activity can be handled in the same manner then?

Hindsight is always humorous. I am looking for a resolution. Give me ideas, not reasons why things are not working. This is a difficult task. but everyone seems to think they can point a finger and assess blame bvut offer no solutions.

Your thought in diplomacy is admirable. but we face a resolute enemy, who in their eyes, are fighting for god. How diplomatic do you think they are?
Well, the man at the bank with a gun is a good analogy...but put it into this perspective...if he legally owns the gun, there are no laws stating that he has to be a certain distance from a bank with a gun unless he is law enforcement, and he has not committed the act of theft...simply put, he is an innocent man. Should he be questioned to see if he has a rap sheet? I don't have a problem with that. Security on a bank should be so strong that he doesn't get in past the door anyways. That's one instance where technology could help...but the problem is that what if the guy doesn't have a gun and is just a wierd looking dude? Do you harass him for being wierd looking?

Granted, criminals will always find the ways to circumvent securities. But that's why security evolves (or should) in a benign state...separate from the judgment issues we are talking of. The security is to protect freedoms, not infringe upon it...what if all guns were encoded so that they deactivated upon entry to a bank? Sure, someone would figure out how to get around it. So do we start bugging our eyes out at everyone that walks up? No, you fix the problem, not the blame...you upgrade the system. It evolves to protect the freedom to walk into a bank without persecution (and with safety).

If you want a direct solution, this is what I think we have to do. It's as direct as it gets. What we ARE doing is creating more terrorists by occupying and policing states for numerous reasons. What we COULD be doing (and this is what I meant by prevention) is by cracking down on corrupt business and international crime syndicates that allow terrorists to function. If we were to put a serious dent in arms, drugs, and criminal trades, terrorists would have a much smaller pool to play in.

Beyond this, we must figure out a way to revamp international image and interaction with citizens. The fact is that many Americans chalk up all the world-wide anger to jealousy...this is partially the case...but my god, we have done a lot of fucked up things to a lot of nations. Of course, the grand solution to this was international economic connections through the WTO...unfortunately, the WTO has two large flaws...it forces all world economies to be involved (and practically accept capitalism from point 0 up), and it creates a situation where one failing or collapsed economy could potentially devastate the economy of every country on earth...this is the greatest irony in 9/11...in that the economic punch we took rippled accross the world...probably making more financially destitute familes that will resent American.

And this is where the greatest change lies: We must figure out a balanced way to be involved in international politics and affairs without totally FUCKING WITH EVERYONE. We should not be the world's police. The U.N. should be. And yes, the U.N. sucks...but it doesn't have to. We have to keep devise a way through international policy so that we can let old wounds heal (before it really does become another crusade-type event).

And how do we do this?

Much of the legislation, both foreign and domestic, that dictates all the mistakes were are making are due to the corruptions we have in gov. This is due to a large blurring of the ideals of business, church, and gov being vitally separate. They, much like our checks and balances, should equally prevent extremism from infiltrating our government for ulterior motives. Once these ulterior motives at home are subdued, we won't be so likely inclined to fuck with other nations due to the simple fact that we will be wiser and more level-headed.

And look, I know that is all broad and sweeping and not as direct as should be, but I want to actually get to bed tonight...lol

Just think of it on these terms. We were reluctant to enter WWI...but we were drawn in and were on the morally right side. We call WWII our finest hour because we were reluctant...and were drawn in and were on the morally right side.

Now, we can say that we are on the morally right side this time...and were drawn in after being reluctant...but that's totally myopic to think. We were retaliated against for fucking with people, plain and simple. Morality is out the window here, and we all know it.

There's no easy answer...but I think that cleaning up domestically and changing our ways foreign...and making a clear distinction about aiding the world's population, fighting world crime, and not fucking with everyone would be the answer.
 
And now we've done her fuckin' homework for her. BAH!

*takes ball and goes home*
 
9/11 was a godsend for these faggot multinational corporations and their mouthpieces(Bush, Cheney, Clinton etc). I think the Patriot Act is more for the future generation of terrorists that will evolve when the last American job paying more than minimum wage leaves this country. Think your safe? Now it's estimated that even the service sector is going bye bye. Everything is a bunch of horseshit desinged to persuade us into fucking ourselves. Now the assholes are using bird flu as an example of why they need to be able to swoop down over a state. Give me a goddamn break. The US needs a modern day tea party.
 
Too funny.

I hope the immig. bill passes. White America will realize The Patriot Act was the least of their worries. Dumbasses.
 
Razorguns said:
Too funny.

I hope the immig. bill passes. White America will realize The Patriot Act was the least of their worries. Dumbasses.
Razor:

I'm trying to find more info. on the immigration bill...the media around here is keeping pretty hush about it. Got any links, or want to explain your opinion in here? I sincerely want to learn more about it and sadly admit I don't know as I should right now.
 
Thanks for your input guys!
I have decided to argue the opposite point of view than I auctually feel....thanks to your sparking of my ideas and stuff.
Here is my first part of my first draft of my essay, if ya wanna see..... tell me what you think :-)

Recently there has been much debate over the Patriot Act and how it relates to the Fourth Amendment. Some people believe that the authority of government to use surveillance to spy on certain citizens without a warrant is a necessary tool for the government to fight the war on terror. These unrealistic people have forgotten one of the basic rights of individuals-the right to liberty- and have incorrectly assumed that the government needs to spy in order to prevent terrorism. In my opinion, handing over the right to private information is putting too much power in the government’s hands, and this is the opposite of what we need for our country.
In the American democracy, citizens vote on one of several “qualified” politics to hold the title of President, the most supreme of decision-makers. Our choice for President is based largely on which candidate has the most similar views and opinions. Even if our favorite candidate loses the election, we stay optimistic about the President’s positive qualities, mainly so we don’t get upset about it. Being mad about a President’s failure would create a desire to make change, and many Americans are too lazy to work for change. So, rather than demanding to have a stronger voice in governmental decisions, we put trust into the President and his cabinet, allowing them to make “smart” decisions for our country, decisions that will shape the fate of America for at least four years.
This approach to elections parallels the public’s blatant optimism towards the Patriot Act. Instead of insisting on passage of laws that are harmonious with the serviceable Fourth Amendment, we are allowing Washington to distort our former policy of privacy. No citizen should be subject to unreasonable searches and seizures, and we should not be forced to put this much trust in piddling politics.
 
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