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the_clockwork
Guest
How many of the companies you guys work for outsource a part of their business, whether it be a call center or a small part..
Zero
Razorguns
Well-known member
the_clockwork said:
Almost everybody with >20 employees.
It's a myriad of reasons really. Reasons include:
1) Cost (duh!)
2) Availability of talent (think you can find top notch ASP developers in Des Moines, Iowa?)
3) Quality (American workers suck big hairy balls and demand steak afterwards)
One company I'm working at, is outsourcing their call-center. They're just tired of dealing with welfare ghetto losers who take those $9/hr jobs. Indians who do it for $6/hr are much easier to work with, and do a far better job. There isn't much if any cost savings. Just frees up their time.
Another outsources all their IT development. Another outsources artistic talent, marketing, human resources to some Tundra in Canada.
Although with the crappy ass laughable dollar - a lot of outsourcing is becoming difficult. People think it's a good thing - perhaps - but the decline in all your salaries (you can buy less goods & services than last year) means it comes at a cost. Your standard of living. There is no free lunch.
r
GUARDIAN said:that is bc nobody wants your job
Thats good cause I ain't givin' it up! Unless one of you want to pay me more to post on EF 8 hours a day.
milo hobgoblin
New member
We do.. and it sucks.
Half our enigineers are now off shored to India. Bunch of fucking idiots. Our manager hides the problem by cleaning up after them constantly. They completely lack the ability to think outside the box and we can only givethem the simplest of tasks.
To tell you its frustrating would be the understatement of the year. You tell em they fucked and and how to fix it.. they say "okay" and fuck it up even more.
The worst part is these are the "educated" ones with degrees.. we have fired so many of them . we've gone through dozens and managed to eek out two "okay" ones. But they cant even speak with the clients because they manage to piss em off so badly.
The worst part is when they fuck up.. and you confront them... they say nothing. Just nod their heads and mutter some unintelligble crap.
The root problem is their education system is fuxxored and too rigid. Its part of their culture and its not going to change anytime soon. They never learn independent thought and it really shows in their work.
One of my "extra" jobs is doing the final review of their software packages.. I probably fail 90% of their work, and wahst the most disheartening.. is that they are given the easier jobs.
Oh.. and BTW my company is one of the top employers in India so we get first draft picks..
the biggest problem is our on shore middle management hides the problem by making all the local workers clean up their shit instead of telling upper management we really arent saving any money because 40% of our production hours consist of wiping shit off the walls. but becase one of their "primary tasks" is making this crap work they lie to get good evaluations.
Half our enigineers are now off shored to India. Bunch of fucking idiots. Our manager hides the problem by cleaning up after them constantly. They completely lack the ability to think outside the box and we can only givethem the simplest of tasks.
To tell you its frustrating would be the understatement of the year. You tell em they fucked and and how to fix it.. they say "okay" and fuck it up even more.
The worst part is these are the "educated" ones with degrees.. we have fired so many of them . we've gone through dozens and managed to eek out two "okay" ones. But they cant even speak with the clients because they manage to piss em off so badly.
The worst part is when they fuck up.. and you confront them... they say nothing. Just nod their heads and mutter some unintelligble crap.
The root problem is their education system is fuxxored and too rigid. Its part of their culture and its not going to change anytime soon. They never learn independent thought and it really shows in their work.
One of my "extra" jobs is doing the final review of their software packages.. I probably fail 90% of their work, and wahst the most disheartening.. is that they are given the easier jobs.
Oh.. and BTW my company is one of the top employers in India so we get first draft picks..
the biggest problem is our on shore middle management hides the problem by making all the local workers clean up their shit instead of telling upper management we really arent saving any money because 40% of our production hours consist of wiping shit off the walls. but becase one of their "primary tasks" is making this crap work they lie to get good evaluations.
Razorguns
Well-known member
milo hobgoblin said:
This is what happens when work, that is not the revenue basis of the company, is outsourced. Where 'diminished quality' will not be the end all of the company.
In places where technical excellence IS the backbone of the company's product: Eg: Video games, Hollywood Films, TV shows, Software, Processor design, Satellites, Rockets, etc. - that shit stays here. Where the talent is (though that is slowly changing, some awesome european & canadian & isreali programmers are popping up). I figured this out quick, and hence my insanely stupid income doing real simple IT shit (to me at least).
If you're in a field that is easily outsourced - the stuff you're doing really isn't that important to the bottom line. And most of corporate america IT work fits nicely in that category.
Blockbuster doesn't care if their databases are not perfectly normalized - or there's a javascript error on 2 pages.
r
vansmack2000
New member
milo hobgoblin said:
basically spot on for my company too. They even own their own company in India and we have had to completly redo WHOLE projects. They had a full year, then we were given 3 months to redo it all, in doing so 2 clients so far have left. And yet the company is still looking to move more jobs offshore.
Basically in 5 years it will be a few execs and team India.
S
SaladFork
Guest
We outsource mass shit, so much in fact we have a center in India dedicated to it. Good thing those fuckers in India don't know how to design, but they can code the shit out of almost anything lol.
We outsource like crazy, but the negative feedback from our customers regarding quality is raising some eyebrows amongst the stockholders.
I hope this trend continues.
I hope this trend continues.
milo hobgoblin
New member
Razorguns said:This is what happens when work, that is not the revenue basis of the company, is outsourced. Where 'diminished quality' will not be the end all of the company.
In places where technical excellence IS the backbone of the company's product: Eg: Video games, Hollywood Films, TV shows, Software, Processor design, Satellites, Rockets, etc. - that shit stays here. Where the talent is (though that is slowly changing, some awesome european & canadian & isreali programmers are popping up). I figured this out quick, and hence my insanely stupid income doing real simple IT shit (to me at least).
If you're in a field that is easily outsourced - the stuff you're doing really isn't that important to the bottom line. And most of corporate america IT work fits nicely in that category.
Blockbuster doesn't care if their databases are not perfectly normalized - or there's a javascript error on 2 pages.
r
Man I wish you were right. But software packaging is becoming one of the backbone services of IT providers.. and good packagers are very hard to find right now. We spent months looking for a local guy and ended up with shit.. we fired four guys before a decent one came along. He of course left within weeks realzing he would spend 40% of his time fixing bullshit because Hadji's a fucking tard.
The problem is that we hide the problem by using our local workers to clean it up.. so if our guys work extra hours to unfuck an SMS job to 5k users.. fuck em.. at least it looked good on paper.
the worst part is we now have a few of thesegys doing OS design.. CORE work.. and its a fucking mess. but middle management just keeps cleaning up the shit on the backs of our local guys.
milo hobgoblin
New member
SaladFork said:
you mean they can regurgitate reusable code and spit out crap that QA has to clean up to make a deadline..
Can you honestly say you've EVER seen original and/or elegant source code form even the brightest one of em??
If you knew the amount of cleanup required to fix that crap before it hit your SMS server.. you'd lose your fucking mind
gjohnson5
New member
In terms of outsourcing IT, I never did believe it saved money. Infact it's always cost more to outsource then it was to hire people. Noone is going to work a 6month contract without benefits without the contract being high dollar to begin with. The main issue is do you wish to fire and risk having to pay unemployment to someone? So some companies choose to hire consultants so they can get rid of them quickly and give contracts to someone else. Then finding quality talent is also outsourced so you have to think of the HR costs as well
Anyway the idea that Indians do a better job in call centers is a total joke. I need to laugh HAHAHAHAHA
Many of these guys have a hard time speaking the language and then have a harder time carrying on a conversation with the customer. Then they have to deal with a customer who is yelling and screaming at them. Generally customer service calls don't require a high level of technical knowledge so it's more communication. Americans do a better job of communicating with other Americans. Local folks always provide better service in my experience. Customer service is out the window for the most part so larger companies send jobs overseas since they probably have portions of thier company in that area anyways.
Anyway the idea that Indians do a better job in call centers is a total joke. I need to laugh HAHAHAHAHA
Many of these guys have a hard time speaking the language and then have a harder time carrying on a conversation with the customer. Then they have to deal with a customer who is yelling and screaming at them. Generally customer service calls don't require a high level of technical knowledge so it's more communication. Americans do a better job of communicating with other Americans. Local folks always provide better service in my experience. Customer service is out the window for the most part so larger companies send jobs overseas since they probably have portions of thier company in that area anyways.
Razorguns said:
gjohnson5
New member
milo hobgoblin said:
LOL!!! This is also a problem with outsourcing since good workers will always have a ton of jobs to choose from. They are probably like me and get 20-50 emails a day about this job and that job. Then the phone calls can get so busy that it becomes a job just being on the market. Quality people are hard to keep
milo hobgoblin said:
Having a fucked up IT infrastructure is a good reason for good IT people to quit and go somewhere else so getting that shored up would mean higher retention. I've left contracts due to managers not listening to me and thus having to do 2-4x more work... There are too many jobs out there to sweat dealing with one position.
milo hobgoblin
New member
gjohnson5 said:
oh.. uhh err.. that was all spam from me. I was trying to get your hopes up.
heheh
Ya.. Im at my wits end with these guys. We keep losing quality guys.. and the worst part is everytime we lose an on-shore.. there's a good chance we lose the FTE and have to fight like hell to keep it.
milo hobgoblin
New member
BTW G.. the Milo BitchGoblin shit really was funny as fuck... Im gonna put it in my sig if I can with my non plat ghetto membership.
Razorguns
Well-known member
The other problem is - so many American IT workers are lazy, useless and there for the paycheck - there are no other options.
90% of the American IT workers are there for the paycheck, so they can pay for their big houses. And at 5pm, off they go! They do their best to try to work as little as possible.
Those with MAD skills - flock to video game, computer, engineering, graphics, animation, technology, etc. fields - where a good programmer/designer can easily make 6 figures.
But in corporate America - nothing but lousy worthless American idiots. And the latest myspace generation coming through the door - are even more worthless. And you can clearly see, how easy it is for Indians and Chinese to compete against them for monkey computer jobs.
r
90% of the American IT workers are there for the paycheck, so they can pay for their big houses. And at 5pm, off they go! They do their best to try to work as little as possible.
Those with MAD skills - flock to video game, computer, engineering, graphics, animation, technology, etc. fields - where a good programmer/designer can easily make 6 figures.
But in corporate America - nothing but lousy worthless American idiots. And the latest myspace generation coming through the door - are even more worthless. And you can clearly see, how easy it is for Indians and Chinese to compete against them for monkey computer jobs.
r
milo hobgoblin
New member
Razorguns said:
LOL damn someones had some bad experiences.
We dont have many young guys where I work.. certainly no myspace idiots.
Because we are a contracted IT company most of the guys with that "union" work mentality were booted a long time ago or went to work for our various "union" oriented clients.
but in their defense.. Ive seen some lazy American workers do in 5 minutes what it took a team of Indians hours to produce.
gjohnson5
New member
No Shit...
I dunno where he got his ideas from, but his perspective is pretty dismal.
Anyway when I was an employee , most of the stuff on SunOS / Oracle I designed. So I was there to do more designing. I especially liked the Oracle stuff since it's a big market. More experience in that field was big for me. My paycheck left alot to be desired , so I continued getting more Oracle in. It was a long term strategy that did pay off. I turned consultant and then I had the experience, training and skill set to WARRANT a big check. Oracle DBA's are almost like doctors {atleast the Sr level DBA have to be majorly expertised!!!} At that time I had spent like 8 years doing just Oracle work so HELL YES... I did want a big check. I earned it at that point
Yes and as far as unions go , there is no IT union.... LOL Many IT folks have to carry a cell phone or pager and wake up @ 3am to fix something. Most big business is 24x7 and the shop has to stay running 24x7. I'm not sure what union is 24x7 but many companies have service level agreements to where it costs them for downtime. This is totally opposite to a union
I dunno where he got his ideas from, but his perspective is pretty dismal.
Anyway when I was an employee , most of the stuff on SunOS / Oracle I designed. So I was there to do more designing. I especially liked the Oracle stuff since it's a big market. More experience in that field was big for me. My paycheck left alot to be desired , so I continued getting more Oracle in. It was a long term strategy that did pay off. I turned consultant and then I had the experience, training and skill set to WARRANT a big check. Oracle DBA's are almost like doctors {atleast the Sr level DBA have to be majorly expertised!!!} At that time I had spent like 8 years doing just Oracle work so HELL YES... I did want a big check. I earned it at that point
Yes and as far as unions go , there is no IT union.... LOL Many IT folks have to carry a cell phone or pager and wake up @ 3am to fix something. Most big business is 24x7 and the shop has to stay running 24x7. I'm not sure what union is 24x7 but many companies have service level agreements to where it costs them for downtime. This is totally opposite to a union
milo hobgoblin said:
milo hobgoblin
New member
gjohnson5 said:
Damn.. thats some badass skillset right there. I bow in awe. I look at a database the same way those chimps looked at that obelisk in the beginning of 2001 space oddessy..
as far as IT Unions.. you're absolutely right.. I meant that many of them get too comfortable and get that Union mentality and I think thats what razorguns is referring too.
Our clients in house IT guys have a REAL union mentality... Razor would lose his mind, these guys simply cant be fired.. and they know it.
as contracters.. we dont have thta luxury.. is they even get a hint something is wrong its automatically our fault. (Im actually a full time emp. of a large company contracted to do IT work).
T
the_clockwork
Guest
Basically what I'm reading unless it's a call center outsourcing ends up costing a company more money than it saves, in most cases. I'm not real familiar with outsourcing but researching aspects and it influences on the American Economy. I know it's pretty popular due to costs reasons but why else would you outsource IT or designing especially if it's costing you more in the long run? Are these cooperations only seeing front end costs?
Razorguns
Well-known member
the_clockwork said:
It's easier to find trained ASP / Java developers in Bangalore, than Des Moines, Iowa.
And with people not wanting to commute more than 20 miles (can you blame them?) - it gets even tougher to recruit locally.
Your only option is hiring local losers who know how to turn on a computer. Not a great option if you value your IT department.
And most people who walk through that door, just want a paycheck. They don't even care what you do, or what they would do, or what the job entails. I'm serious. "Any questions?" "Nope!" "Allrightey then".
r
gjohnson5
New member
Unfortunately many managers have ideas like Razorguns and they propose outsourcing without really understanding the situation or the costs involved.
But I guess managers would rather pay to outsource then to pay unemployment to a deadbeat who is not helping the company. Even if that unemployment cost is 1/5 what it is to outsource (I'm pretty sure the unemployment office has guidelines as to how , when and where to do job searches as well as lengths of time the $$$ can be collected)
Reasons to outsource
1. You don't have to pay benefits... So consultants don't end up on your group health insurance policy
2. Employment/Unemployment taxes... They ain't employees to you don't have to pay taxes on them
3. Hourly rate. Many companies put a small budget on projects trying to lure a worker into a job with pay that is lower then what they pay for salary and benefits to an employee
4. Customer Service is seen as a business expense , so some peoples ideas of cost cutting is to cut out the costs of customer service. So instead of hiring local folks you can outsource
The problem with the above is that you generally get a lower quality of service from entry level or lower end job then you would from employees or local folks. As Milo pointed out their overseas IT segment of his company always gets stuff wrong that local folks end up having to fix anyway... So what's the purpose of these overseas people anyway? Once people figure this out, then it costs to find a replacement and sign him onto a contract. If you're outsourcing a whole segment of your company such as a call center, those contracts are always high dollar. The problem is that most companies probably don't focus on accounting stats on what it costs them to take segments of their company overseas and then having to fix the messes they create. LOL, I need to create a service that goes to companies and looks into thiner books just to see how much they are spending from outsourcing
But I guess managers would rather pay to outsource then to pay unemployment to a deadbeat who is not helping the company. Even if that unemployment cost is 1/5 what it is to outsource (I'm pretty sure the unemployment office has guidelines as to how , when and where to do job searches as well as lengths of time the $$$ can be collected)
Reasons to outsource
1. You don't have to pay benefits... So consultants don't end up on your group health insurance policy
2. Employment/Unemployment taxes... They ain't employees to you don't have to pay taxes on them
3. Hourly rate. Many companies put a small budget on projects trying to lure a worker into a job with pay that is lower then what they pay for salary and benefits to an employee
4. Customer Service is seen as a business expense , so some peoples ideas of cost cutting is to cut out the costs of customer service. So instead of hiring local folks you can outsource
The problem with the above is that you generally get a lower quality of service from entry level or lower end job then you would from employees or local folks. As Milo pointed out their overseas IT segment of his company always gets stuff wrong that local folks end up having to fix anyway... So what's the purpose of these overseas people anyway? Once people figure this out, then it costs to find a replacement and sign him onto a contract. If you're outsourcing a whole segment of your company such as a call center, those contracts are always high dollar. The problem is that most companies probably don't focus on accounting stats on what it costs them to take segments of their company overseas and then having to fix the messes they create. LOL, I need to create a service that goes to companies and looks into thiner books just to see how much they are spending from outsourcing
the_clockwork said:
Razorguns
Well-known member
The outsourcing world has been changing drastically.
I admit I've helped this process. Mainly in my designs and delegations of projects that are designed to be 'developed or impleneted on and offshore'.
The way it is handled is simple:
First DUMP DOWN the various tasks. We call this 'monkey work'. Stuff that can be outsourced easily.
Do you have a clerk that does nothing than "HI. What is your name? What is your complaint (types in complaint and hits enter). Thank you have a nice day"? -- well this stuff is monkey work. Any moron can do that. Easy to oursource.
Create a web page that hits a back-end database and displays results? Monkey work. Any 2-bit developer can do that. Easy to oursource.
Test a website? Any moron can click pages all day and fill out a report. Easy to outsource.
Design a multi-tier, cross-platform, multi-site technology, to propogate dynamic timely information across multiple sites in a company's network? -- Get the $200/hr consultant from San Francisco who knows this shit, inside and out.
... then he creates dumped down monkey tasks - and another educated American (usually me) - delegates that work to code monkeys offshore.
End result of that cross-shore collaboration?: Better, faster, more efficient system - with cost savings!
And the developers in China, India, England I've worked with - have all been top notch. Tata and Infosys developers are known to be top of their leagues. Even Microsoft hires them and has opened up a local facility to tap into that talent.
r
I admit I've helped this process. Mainly in my designs and delegations of projects that are designed to be 'developed or impleneted on and offshore'.
The way it is handled is simple:
First DUMP DOWN the various tasks. We call this 'monkey work'. Stuff that can be outsourced easily.
Do you have a clerk that does nothing than "HI. What is your name? What is your complaint (types in complaint and hits enter). Thank you have a nice day"? -- well this stuff is monkey work. Any moron can do that. Easy to oursource.
Create a web page that hits a back-end database and displays results? Monkey work. Any 2-bit developer can do that. Easy to oursource.
Test a website? Any moron can click pages all day and fill out a report. Easy to outsource.
Design a multi-tier, cross-platform, multi-site technology, to propogate dynamic timely information across multiple sites in a company's network? -- Get the $200/hr consultant from San Francisco who knows this shit, inside and out.
... then he creates dumped down monkey tasks - and another educated American (usually me) - delegates that work to code monkeys offshore.
End result of that cross-shore collaboration?: Better, faster, more efficient system - with cost savings!
And the developers in China, India, England I've worked with - have all been top notch. Tata and Infosys developers are known to be top of their leagues. Even Microsoft hires them and has opened up a local facility to tap into that talent.
r
gjohnson5
New member
Razorguns said:
This is the other problem. If you think any 2 bit developer can do this correctly, then you're kidding yourself. Developers don't maintain schemas nor do do enough security or networking to secure the subnet / machines correctly. Then who's gonna back this data up????
Razorguns said:
Technically you don't need to hire people to load test a web site. There are software packages that can do this.
Razorguns said:
You need a team of people at each site to ensure the data is flowing properly and secured properly
Razorguns said:
I guess that's the 30 second analysis of the situation but unfortunately there are many people who think like this, hence I generally don't take the lower paying contracts. The companies that want the work done right and professional quality , then I'll take those contracts
Razorguns said:
Microsoft is the bottom of the barrel in terms of security, not to mention Apache or Apache / Oracle or DB2 and J2EE based application servers have the most market share. In other words , noone uses Microsoft technologies for this stuff. Thats what IBM, Oracle, SAP, Macromedia, SUN, HP Symantec/Veritas are for...
Razorguns
Well-known member
I hear ya - but we're talking about NON-ESSENTIAL data systems for a company. ie: Most IT projects to a company are EXPENSES. The main budget is for the revenue generation sections of the company. IT budgets just get in the way, and most VP's would love to shrink it as much as possible.
A company selling shoes has no problem outsourcing the entire site to Infosys. Taking 3 months extra to go live won't kill the company.
Microsoft makes money and has the money - so that's that.
r
A company selling shoes has no problem outsourcing the entire site to Infosys. Taking 3 months extra to go live won't kill the company.
Microsoft makes money and has the money - so that's that.
r
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