Ok guys, Lat Building 101, need some help

[Wulfgar]

So in a few weeks Ill of taken my 3 months off training and be about ready to stop hibernating and begin my training for a run @ 07
After crtically asessing my physique from this past year I have decided my MAJOR area I need to bring up to be competitive is my Back. Primarily width, but thickness also is important...especially @ my height(6'1)
so anyhow Ive been training my back 2 times a week,
Workout 1
Deadlifts 5 sets 10,8,6,4,2
bent Rows 4 sets 10-15 reps
T-bar rows 4 sets 8-15
1 arm DB rows 3 sets 10-15 reps
Workout 2
Pulldowns or weighted pullups to the front(wide grip) 4 sets 10-15
Close grip underhand Pulldowns 4x12
Seated low pulley rows(close grip) 4x12
Cross bench Pullovers 4x12
obviously 1 workout is thickness, the other is width. Ive seen decent results in my thickness and detail..but Im no where near wide enough.

As far as my AAS use goes I was thinking about running some site specific enhancement protocols by injecting the lats and traps with fast acting test, PGF2a, and other site enhancement oils when im on cycle. Anyone had any luck doing this?
I always train balls to the wall brutal, Ill deadlift 700 lbs routinely on my heavy sets, do pulldowns with strict form with 350 lbs. I 1 arm DB row the 200's for reps and bent row well over 400 lbs for reps. But my goddamn back just hasnt come up like i have expected it to even with a constant year of that type of bombardment

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED BROS!!

Thx
Wulf

 

[dale_gribble]

Im not sure if you guys have one in the gym, but get a weight lifting belt and tie a chain on the front of it, and then tie the chain around a 45lb plate and put the belt on. then do WG pull ups bro. You notice a better improvement on your width within a month or so.

 

[mlong23]

How often are you training back? You should incorporate both type of exercises (pulling and rowing) in each training day of back. The pull's will help to stretch the muscle as well as build it.

Here's a suggestion for a day:

Wide Pull-Downs or Pull-ups
Deadlifts
Bent bar rows
Close Pull-Downs or Wide
T-bar rows
Dumbell Rows

You can throw in some extra stuff if you have the energy. Go 3-4 sets of each exercise, heavy as possible for 6-10 reps.

 

[Behemoth]

Dale...I can actually read your post...Bravo...

This probably should be moved to the training forum.

 

[Goldprospector]

So in a few weeks Ill of taken my 3 months off training and be about ready to stop hibernating and begin my training for a run @ 07
After crtically asessing my physique from this past year I have decided my MAJOR area I need to bring up to be competitive is my Back. Primarily width, but thickness also is important...especially @ my height(6'1)
so anyhow Ive been training my back 2 times a week,
Workout 1
Deadlifts 5 sets 10,8,6,4,2
bent Rows 4 sets 10-15 reps
T-bar rows 4 sets 8-15
1 arm DB rows 3 sets 10-15 reps
Workout 2
Pulldowns or weighted pullups to the front(wide grip) 4 sets 10-15
Close grip underhand Pulldowns 4x12
Seated low pulley rows(close grip) 4x12
Cross bench Pullovers 4x12
obviously 1 workout is thickness, the other is width. Ive seen decent results in my thickness and detail..but Im no where near wide enough.

As far as my AAS use goes I was thinking about running some site specific enhancement protocols by injecting the lats and traps with fast acting test, PGF2a, and other site enhancement oils when im on cycle. Anyone had any luck doing this?
I always train balls to the wall brutal, Ill deadlift 700 lbs routinely on my heavy sets, do pulldowns with strict form with 350 lbs. I 1 arm DB row the 200's for reps and bent row well over 400 lbs for reps. But my goddamn back just hasnt come up like i have expected it to even with a constant year of that type of bombardment

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED BROS!!

Thx
Wulf

It seems to me that you have too many exersizes for back thickness and not enough for width, especially if that is an area where you want to concentrate.
I would exchange the low cable rows for Rack chins and I would do pullups on Workout one and pulldowns on Workout 2.
Also consider using some DC training for the width excersizes.

 

[mlong23]

It seems to me that you have too many exersizes for back thickness and not enough for width, especially if that is an area where you want to concentrate.
I would exchange the low cable rows for Rack chins and I would do pullups on Workout one and pulldowns on Workout 2.
Also consider using some DC training for the width excersizes.

I think most heavy rowing movements will develop width as well.

 

[toxicsambo]

It seems to me that you have too many exersizes for back thickness and not enough for width, especially if that is an area where you want to concentrate.
I would exchange the low cable rows for Rack chins and I would do pullups on Workout one and pulldowns on Workout 2.
Also consider using some DC training for the width excersizes.

Thinking the same thing, more frequent chinning. Any varitaion of Wide Grip chins. Maybe half reps and holding a contraction for a 2 count could help shock the lats also.

For DB Rows, something that worked for me when I wanted to build the lower lats was rowing in a sweeping arch movement .When you row up, the DB should come to your lower waist/hip instead of a straight up and down movement. And When lowering it you sweep it out in front of you, almost at the eyeline. I'm sure many know this trick.

 

[VascularitY]

Thinking the same thing, more frequent chinning. Any varitaion of Wide Grip chins. Maybe half reps and holding a contraction for a 2 count could help shock the lats also.

For DB Rows, something that worked for me when I wanted to build the lower lats was rowing in a sweeping arch movement .When you row up, the DB should come to your lower waist/hip instead of a straight up and down movement. And When lowering it you sweep it out in front of you, almost at the eyeline. I'm sure many know this trick.

Most common mistake with dumbell rows is people bring the weight up too close to their armpit, works much better bring it up towards your hip. good input there

 

[02gixxersix]

Weighted rack chins for width.

 

[bigrand]

two exercises for width and two for thickness, bent over rows for total growth.

I actually only do t-bar and seated cable rows for thickness and wide grip and inside reverse grip for width and my back grows the best.


Sorry to piggy back, but what do you do for chest? I cant do decline or dips (shoulder problems) but everything else is cool. I currently do flatbarbell (sometimes dumbells), incline (alternate between dummys, barbell and close-neutral grip hammerstrength), dummy pullovers, and some isolation (flyes or pec-dec).
Used to do it twice a week, but cut it to once after i saw no difference while all other parts get strong with once a week. My chest is so weak and small compared its really pissing me off!

 

[Wulfgar]

It seems to me that you have too many exersizes for back thickness and not enough for width, especially if that is an area where you want to concentrate.
I would exchange the low cable rows for Rack chins and I would do pullups on Workout one and pulldowns on Workout 2.
Also consider using some DC training for the width excersizes.

I not familiar with Doggcraps width training. I know he says to incororate some brutal fascial stretching techniques but that is all

 

[Wulfgar]

Thinking the same thing, more frequent chinning. Any varitaion of Wide Grip chins. Maybe half reps and holding a contraction for a 2 count could help shock the lats also.

For DB Rows, something that worked for me when I wanted to build the lower lats was rowing in a sweeping arch movement .When you row up, the DB should come to your lower waist/hip instead of a straight up and down movement. And When lowering it you sweep it out in front of you, almost at the eyeline. I'm sure many know this trick.

I know what your sayin..I do my rows like this

Im also experiementing with BB rows bent more @ 90 degrees with an underhand grip and really stretching the lats...i only go up to about 315 and really fous on the stretch and hold the contraction for few seconds
seems to really fry the lats

 

[Wulfgar]

Ok guys
wtf is a rack CHIN??
I know what a rach pull is but a chin up on a power rack? please explain

 

[02gixxersix]

You get in a power rack or a smith machine and put a flat bench out in front of you. You want the bar set at a height so that when you come all the way up your ass is going to be slightly lower or parallel with your feet. Put your feet up on the bench (cross your feet) and take the widest grip you can (i strap it bc it's harder than it sounds). You want to have the becnh at the right distance so you are not doing like a hanging row but actually more like a pullup. You can do them with bodyweight or have your training partner put plates in your lap and do them weighted. There is a video on intensemuscle.com of Dave Hnery doing them let me see if I can find it for you.

 

[02gixxersix]

http://www.teamvasquezbodybuilding.com/dhenryrackchin.mpg

 

[rusbus01]

deep tissue massage, muscle relaxers, jacuzzi all helped me

 

[booby]

i lifted extremley heavy weights in all my workouts for years.when i cut back on my weight and really focused on strict form and completly stretching my muscles my lats exploded!...and wide grip pull ups all the way for width!...leave the cable pull down machines alone!...most strong lifters can rep the stack easily,but doing wide grip pull ups with your own body weight is a different beast,if your using strict form and not momentum like most guys do,it will be a very hard workout...and your lats will look like wings!

 

[Wulfgar]

great advice bros!
those Rack chins look fucking brutal...im gonna try em

I do get deep tissue massage often but ill practice stretching more and have my therapist work hard and deep into the lats themselves

 

[fortunatesun]

I'm in favor of chins as well, and I see you have your DLs covered.

As long as you're up for some experimentation with your rows, I'd like to recommend Pendlay Rows:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/total...0264f92bb5cf5dad0c8a0&showtopic=498&st=20&p=9

You deload the bar for every rep. From my own experience, I believe they will help provide the width you are looking for much faster than will normal rows.

 

[booby]

another thing that helps also is when your doing pull ups dont grab the bar in your hands with your grip around the bar...this lets you use more arms and doesnt isolate your lats...use your hands more like hooks on the bar,it helps take your arms out of the pulling...you probably already know this but alot of people forget...good luck bro!

 

[Wulfgar]

I'm in favor of chins as well, and I see you have your DLs covered.

As long as you're up for some experimentation with your rows, I'd like to recommend Pendlay Rows:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/total...0264f92bb5cf5dad0c8a0&showtopic=498&st=20&p=9

You deload the bar for every rep. From my own experience, I believe they will help provide the width you are looking for much faster than will normal rows.

would you say it was better to do these underhand or overhand? seems to me overhad rows done @ 90 would tend to blst the rear delts to hely hell at the expense of the lats.

 

[fortunatesun]

Grip is whicheverway is best for you.

Overemphasis of your rear-delts shouldn't be a problem. It all depends to where you pull the bar, as someone else stated. Just make sure your hitting your lats dead on. My back still feels blown out 3hrs. home from the gym. Squats, 5x5 on the rows, some high-rep facepulls and grip work.

 

[JuicedAthletics]

Wulfgar, I honestly don't think your really lagging in the lat area. You are tall and you have that against you. Most judges will take that into consideration. Secondly, you are doing pretty much everything that targets the laterals. Have you ever considered heavy heavy lat pullovers followed by some 60 second stretching under tention. I use the Hammer Strength Lat pull over machine about once a month and I feel it targets my lats. My lats are tied in pretty high so I am fortunate to have a little wingspan, even at 6'1..
Maybe you can give it a shot since you already do everything else.

Lastly, maybe just changing hand positions till you find something that hits the target.

 

[fortunatesun]

They always stick it to the tall guy.

 

[Wulfgar]

Wulfgar, I honestly don't think your really lagging in the lat area. You are tall and you have that against you. Most judges will take that into consideration. Secondly, you are doing pretty much everything that targets the laterals. Have you ever considered heavy heavy lat pullovers followed by some 60 second stretching under tention. I use the Hammer Strength Lat pull over machine about once a month and I feel it targets my lats. My lats are tied in pretty high so I am fortunate to have a little wingspan, even at 6'1..
Maybe you can give it a shot since you already do everything else.

Lastly, maybe just changing hand positions till you find something that hits the target.

Well I think you have a point. My back has come up alot from last year but not nearly as much as my legs/arms and Chest has. I just feel it could improve faster. I love the ideas all the guys on here are giving and I will definately try them.
question for you. I dont have a lat pullover machine @ my gym so im forced to use a dumbell. I use the dumbell on my width days and go as heavy as the 160 for 10 hitting the damn thing agaisnt the floor. Im gonna trythe deep stretching in between sets though