Off of juice and On to Prohormones: My Experiment

[growin']

Well, I got married a few weeks ago, and with that came my promise to my wife that I would stop taking steroids. Pro-hormones are still in the equation due to their legality. So, I have decided to give these bad dogs a try. I will not take creatine initially so I may get a clearer indication of how they work. Here's my stats and upcoming plan:
Age: 24
Height: 5'11"
Weight: 210 lbs
BF: 12%
Training for 9 years. Started at 145lbs, hit 175 naturally after 7 1/2 years. Hit 228 over last year and a half. Dieted/Shrunk to 210. I have been of of Primobolan for 3 weeks. I will be eating:

4500 Cals
338g Protein
450g Carbohydrates
150g Fats

I will follow a 2-On 4-Off dosing pattern. Here's the supps:

Two Weeks On:
1. 12 sprays Ergopharm Andro-Spray 2x per day(?mg 4-AD total)
2. 6 intranasal Sprays of Ergopharm PsychoDiol (18mg 4-AD)pre-workout only
3. Protein Factory Recovery Formula (Hydro Isolate Whey + BCAA + Glutamine Peptides) Post workout + Twin Lab Anti-Oxidant Fuel
4. 15g Glutamine Before Bed
5. Twin Lab Dual Tabs Mulit-Vitamin
6. 4 Tbsp Flax Oil + 4 TbspOlive Oil per day
7. 1000mg ALA

Four Weeks Off:
1. Biotest Tribex 4 caps 2x ED
2. Protein Factory Recovery Formula (Hydro Isolate Whey + BCAA + Glutamine Peptides) Post workout + Twin Lab Anti-Oxidant Fuel
3. 15g Glutamine Before Bed
4. Twin Lab Dual Tabs Mulit-Vitamin
5. 4 Tbsp Flax Oil + 4 TbspOlive Oil per day
6. 1000mg ALA

Training will be periodized over 4 phases. Each phase will last 3 weeks. Two phases will be performed, followed by one week active rest i.e. 6 weeks on + 1 week off. This will make the training cycle last 14 weeks.

 

[growin']

Oh yes, after the Ergopharm Spray runs out, I will be using Avant Labs 4-AD lotion.

Damn, Ergo's Andro Spray is messy (needles were easier). Any tips on maximizing absorption in addition to shaving chest hair? P.A.?

 

[javaguru]

Looks good. I've gotten decent results from topical 4-ad. Have you considered adding 1-ad to the mix, I think it looks good on paper, I've been wanting to try it but I still have some time off.

 

[growin']

I have read about 1-AD, and may give it a shot depending on how 4-AD goes. Looks like 1-AD may have more benefit when dieting. I don't think I'll diet until I'm back around 230-240.

 

[doggmann]

not a great comptomise to make, bro, but if you can deal with that loss of liberty, okay..lol..anyway, i am doing something very similar...finished long acting esters 9 weeks ago and short acting esters 6 weeks ago...decided to go juice free for an extended period because of concerns over security since 9/11...

anyway, i ended cycle at 237pounds 6'0"...12%bf
did 3 weeks clomid therapy, then switched to tribex 500 at 10 caps per day. i've been using androspray 2x per day (12 sprays), 30 dessicated liver and 25 amino acid tabs per day, with meals...Low carb diet with around 3500 calories (slow metabolism), including 350-400 grams of protein per day.

so far, i am very surprised with the results. currently weigh 243 pounds...no loss of strength...as for the androspray, try hitting your shoulder and upper arms, they should be relatively hair free...

i'll give 1-ad a shot within the next 6 weeks or so and i'll also try avant labs transdermal 4-ad product...guys at my gym still ask me what i'm taking and don't believe me when i tell them, which is cool...good luck with your program...

 

[riskybizz007]

As far as gains go i have not experienced any gains in weight due to the 4AD. For weight gains i'd try incorporating some 19Nordiol into the picture twice a day, 1 in morning and 1 dose at night. Or go w/ the 1AD. 4AD hasn't done shit for me other than strength increase.

I know a few people say tribulus doesn't really work. But if it didn't why do the testes start descending much faster? B/c of that theory i've tried Maca, which was recommended to me in the anabolics board. I'd have to say MACA is much much better than tribulus. I took 2 pills and it increased libido like crazy and testes became regular size and descended all the way just after 1 day. Much better than tribulus, might want to check it out.

 

[Guinness]

RiskyBizz,

Is Maca a legal supp, and if so, any links to a site that sells/has info on it?

Growin'....what's the story on ALA? I've heard of it, but can't remember what it is, or what it's used for. Forgive my newbie ignorance....also, what Glutamine supp are you going to be using? I'm thinking of doing a creatine/glutamine cycle post 1-ad (after I take a week off to recover), so I'm wanting to do some research on best glutamine products out there. Any comments?

 

[growin']

I used Tribex when it first came out, and I have to say I was pretty impressed. This was, of course, before using the "Real Thing". Is MACA OTC? If so, where'd you get it?

Thanks

 

[growin']

Guiness, ALA stands for Alpha Lipoic Acid. It is an antioxidant that also greatly improves glucose uptake by muscle cells. It's supposedly better than metphormin, and in my case, it does not cause the queeziness metformin does.

I am using plain old glutamine(Kaizen) at the moment because I got it cheap. I have used GLutamine Peptides, and can't say I noticed a big difference other than Peptide's HORRIBLE taste.

I think the key to any glutamine is dose: a few big doses is better than many smaller doses. As far as creatine, micronized seems to work better along with less gas.

 

[Guinness]

Growin',

Thanks for the response bro...I'll look into it a little further..still have 2 1/2 weeks left to go on my 1-ad cycle, so I'm a few weeks off from starting that creatine cycle....

Speaking of which, any experience with the titrated creatine's? Read an article in last month's iron man mag that really hyped it up a lot, saying it gave way better absorption than even good ole micronized...I've got a full bottle of Optimum's Micronized sitting at home un-opened that I was going to use, but if a few people can back up the claims about titrated creatine that Iron Man spoke of, I might just sell that one or give it away to a buddy, and grab a bottle of some titrated stuff...I know IDS makes some, and I think muscle link makes a titrated creatine..not sure who else does....just wonderin'

 

[growin']

Never tried titrated stuff. Sounds like hype. I think micronized serves it purpose well. If anything sounds too good to be true, its not legal....in the US anyways

 

[pa1ad]

Oh yes, after the Ergopharm Spray runs out, I will be using Avant Labs 4-AD lotion.

Damn, Ergo's Andro Spray is messy (needles were easier). Any tips on maximizing absorption in addition to shaving chest hair? P.A.?

Rub it in with your hands after spraying it on. Try to get it covering as much of your skin as possible.

I don't see 1-AD in your stack. For shame!

 

[pa1ad]

As far as gains go i have not experienced any gains in weight due to the 4AD. For weight gains i'd try incorporating some 19Nordiol into the picture twice a day, 1 in morning and 1 dose at night. Or go w/ the 1AD. 4AD hasn't done shit for me other than strength increase.

I know a few people say tribulus doesn't really work. But if it didn't why do the testes start descending much faster? B/c of that theory i've tried Maca, which was recommended to me in the anabolics board. I'd have to say MACA is much much better than tribulus. I took 2 pills and it increased libido like crazy and testes became regular size and descended all the way just after 1 day. Much better than tribulus, might want to check it out.

Descending testes? And why does this have anything to do with testosterone production?

 

[pa1ad]

Growin',

Thanks for the response bro...I'll look into it a little further..still have 2 1/2 weeks left to go on my 1-ad cycle, so I'm a few weeks off from starting that creatine cycle....

Speaking of which, any experience with the titrated creatine's? Read an article in last month's iron man mag that really hyped it up a lot, saying it gave way better absorption than even good ole micronized...I've got a full bottle of Optimum's Micronized sitting at home un-opened that I was going to use, but if a few people can back up the claims about titrated creatine that Iron Man spoke of, I might just sell that one or give it away to a buddy, and grab a bottle of some titrated stuff...I know IDS makes some, and I think muscle link makes a titrated creatine..not sure who else does....just wonderin'

Please resist the temptation to fall for any fancy creatine products. Once your muscles are loaded, simple creatine monohydrate will keep them loaded. No product, no matter what is in the formula, will load your muscles beyond what is acheivable with simple CM. The only advantage with some products is that they allow you to shorten your loading phase.

 

[OVRTrainer]

growin...

Just my recommendation from experience...the topical 4-AD products just begin to work around two weeks. I would consider staying on for at least 4 weeks. I understand that you are looking to extend your cycle, but I think it would be fine to go 4wks on2 off and 4 on again if you were to take an extended period of time off after that.

If you are concerned about testicular shrinkage, 4-AD doesn't seem to do that for most people and as far as keeping gains you're going to lose some post cycle, regardless, because of the water retention. (Creatine post-cycle might help you keep the water retention but that's if you like that sort of thing)

I've found that after doing a longer cycle of a 4-AD topical, if you start taking tribex (the new formula is much better) the last week of your cycle and continue for 3-4 subsequent weeks you should do a better job at keeping your gains, if you keep your calories up.

I have used "vitex" during a 7week cycle of 1-AD and it didn't hinder gains whatsoever and I experienced no HPTA shutdown, which some have reported. Though there's no real data regarding the efficacy of vitex, only the testimonials of users, I can't guarantee it would work for you, but it definitely helped me; plus it's like $5 for a bottle of 100 and you only need 1 cap a day. Just my 2cents.

 

[growin']

pa1ad,

Yes, yes, 1-AD is not there....yet. I may give that a shot when dieting, or based on my reaction to 4AD. One thing I never did with steroids was take them individually. I always stacked from cycle one. This time, I think I'll see how I react to each substance, then experiment with stacks. Just a thought, who knows, I tend to get ancy.

I have heard a little about Vitex(isn't that the same as Maca) on Elite and on AF. Some say it merely helps with libido, other places tout it as an anti-estrogen. Estrogen isn't too much of a worry, but I do like the effects anti-estrogens/aromatases (arimidex/proviron/nolvadex) had on my body. They make me very "tight".

What brands of Vitex are you guys using, and where do you get them?

 

[Guinness]

PA,

Thanks for your input...and yeah, I had considered the hype factor when it comes to the titrated creatine, hence my question about whether or not anyone had had any experiences with it, and could possibly vouch for it's legitimacy.

I like Iron Man Mag, but so many of the articles about supps in there are just thinly disguised ads for Muscle Link products, that I don't put a lot of creedence in what is being said.

I'll stick with the Micronized stuff I have from Optimum for this first cycle, and if I get a little urge to do some comparison, maybe I'll by some of the titrated stuff later on....either way, thanks for you input...I know you've been around a long time and seen a lot of this stuff come and go, so it's nice to have someone with your experience that can help some of us newbies cut through the BS....

 

[riskybizz007]

I used Tribex when it first came out, and I have to say I was pretty impressed. This was, of course, before using the "Real Thing". Is MACA OTC? If so, where'd you get it?

Thanks

Maca is OTC, it's an herb, you can find it in just about any herb shop. I think it's a very old herb used by indians in S.America that used it to increase their libido. To me it works hell of a lot better than tribulus. W/ 4ad, my nuts started shrinking, they ascended all the way up. After 1 day of Maca they went to normal size, descended all the way down to normal level, and libido increased much more than tribulus.

PA, correct me if i'm wrong, but when your body is fighting to produce more of it's own testosterone the testes will ascend closer and closer to the penis. When natural testosterone production is going back to normal levels they will descend. This is what has been explained to me, is it wrong?

 

[growin']

As an herb, does MACA need to be standardized for anything?

 

[Par Deus]

As an herb, does MACA need to be standardized for anything?

I think it contains "l-dopa". Anyone can feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

ParDeus
www.avantlabs.com

 

[pa1ad]

pa1ad,

Yes, yes, 1-AD is not there....yet. I may give that a shot when dieting, or based on my reaction to 4AD. One thing I never did with steroids was take them individually. I always stacked from cycle one. This time, I think I'll see how I react to each substance, then experiment with stacks. Just a thought, who knows, I tend to get ancy.

I have heard a little about Vitex(isn't that the same as Maca) on Elite and on AF. Some say it merely helps with libido, other places tout it as an anti-estrogen. Estrogen isn't too much of a worry, but I do like the effects anti-estrogens/aromatases (arimidex/proviron/nolvadex) had on my body. They make me very "tight".

What brands of Vitex are you guys using, and where do you get them?

can someone state some evidence regarding vitex other than "someone said it works?" I always thought that Vitex was something women took to relieve PMS, and that the fact that Vitex contains progesterone is what was responsible for this. Since when did Vitex become a bodybuilding supplement for men.

Not that you guys won't buy the stuff anyway without a shred of evidence behind it. why do i bother

 

[pa1ad]

Maca is OTC, it's an herb, you can find it in just about any herb shop. I think it's a very old herb used by indians in S.America that used it to increase their libido. To me it works hell of a lot better than tribulus. W/ 4ad, my nuts started shrinking, they ascended all the way up. After 1 day of Maca they went to normal size, descended all the way down to normal level, and libido increased much more than tribulus.

PA, correct me if i'm wrong, but when your body is fighting to produce more of it's own testosterone the testes will ascend closer and closer to the penis. When natural testosterone production is going back to normal levels they will descend. This is what has been explained to me, is it wrong?

I have never heard of this before. It sounds very hokey

 

[riskybizz007]

I like your terminology PA. It sounded a bit "hokey" to me too at first lol. But seriously I know when your natural test starts to come back your testes will descend and go back to natural size. And Maca did it in just 1 day. And increased libido much more than tribulus ever did. I paid $5 for a bottle, for that amount of money it's worth a try even if it's just for shit and giggles, but if you're like me trying to find a "legal clomid" this is not it, but still much more effective than trib.

 

[growin']

I know this board is for supplements, but maybe we should be using Clomid instead? It's super cheap, easy to get, and turns the average joe into a porn star.

Having your nuts ascend doesn't mean your HPTA is affected, it could mean you're cold. When your nuts go from the size of big walnuts to small grapes (like 10 weeks on 1000mg test did to me) you know you're shut down.

But seriously, after 2 weeks, I don't think 4-AD will shut you down that much. I guess the only way to really tell would be through blood tests, or using calipers to measure actual change in testicle size.

Seems like the consensus on MACA is rather shaky at the moment, think I'll wait. PA1AD, I'm all for waiting until I see solid research.

 

[Triple J]

I want to announce my nuts have ascended for the winter. I am going to try to coax them back down with some maca and tribex. If that does not work I am moving to Florida.

 

[riskybizz007]

Go to south beach and your nuts will feel just fine lol. j/k. I believe your HTPA can be shut down even after 36 hours of certain drugs. I know not all will shut it down at same time, but some of the more potent ones will only take 1 day to shut it down. Where would you think that 4AD wouldn't shut it down.. "that much". It either is shut down or it isn't, there is no half way shut down or 1/3 the way shut down.

And about your nuts being ascended and you being cold, that is true, but that would not attribute to your nuts shrinking and being ascended the whole day and night for several days straight. And besides, i'm in FL. Yes your nuts can ascend from both HTPA and from cold. But there's a big difference in how much they ascend, how long they ascend for, and the fact that they will shrink.

So considering i'm not cold, ruling that out, it would have to be my HTPA being affected. And i don't really think i need a measuring device to tell me my nuts got back to their normal size, and my sex drive skyrocketed, nor do i need it to show me my natural test is being produced more efficiently after the maca b/c the proof can be observed in the family jewels. One that they returned to normal size and 2 that they descended once again to normal levels.

This is not a flame, and don't get me wrong on this but that's just the way i see it. And if you wait for Maca to be tested, you might wait many years, or it may never be tested ever. What's the worst that can happen anyway? You pop a boner and lose $5 that's the only negatives i can come up w/.

 

[growin']

I am adamantly opposed to popping boners No flame intended, just trying to proceed with caution

 

[Triple J]

I am with you, bro - I believe these herbs have benefits and effects, and there is no doubt what the cold can do. I'll check out South Beach next time I come to FL, too. To be safe, I'll wear a jock strap in case the nuts get over-descended. LOL

Regarding the maca and tribulus I think they are hypothesized to work through different pathways so there could be synergy. One thing, though, most tribulus supplements recommend they be taken with a meal while the maca I think is usually taken on an empty stomach.

 

[riskybizz007]

If what Pardeus is saying about Tribulus is right, i wouldn't take it. That's one reason i switched over to the maca. If you'd like, try using 1 and then the other and see which works best for you. And about the boner thing, yes you gotta be careful cuz you'll feel like 16 again and just start popping boners out of nowhere. lol.

 

[pa1ad]

G Where would you think that 4AD wouldn't shut it down.. "that much". It either is shut down or it isn't, there is no half way shut down or 1/3 the way shut down.

No, there are varying degrees of suppression. Rarely is anyone ever completely suppressed. Depending on the amount and potency of exogenous steroid in the system, LH and FSH levels will decrease accordingly. Tell me how many people have you heard of that have testosterone levels of 0?

 

[riskybizz007]

not 1 PA, but what people have always told me is that once it's supressed, it's supressed. From what i've read, there's no half way supressed in the picture. People were asking about d-bol and other orals, how they could take it w/ minimal affects on the HTPA. People kept answering saying it would shut down the HTPA. I know the levels of natural testosterone will vary according to length of time on supplement/drug, the type of drug, etc. But i think when it is shut down you will still be producing a certain amount of test, even though it may be minimal. Maybe shut down isn't exactly the best word to describe it. I just think once it's suppressed, it's supressed and there's no half way supressed about it. But that's just my opinion, proof would be in the test results when test is measured.

 

[pa1ad]

not 1 PA, but what people have always told me is that once it's supressed, it's supressed. From what i've read, there's no half way supressed in the picture. People were asking about d-bol and other orals, how they could take it w/ minimal affects on the HTPA. People kept answering saying it would shut down the HTPA. I know the levels of natural testosterone will vary according to length of time on supplement/drug, the type of drug, etc. But i think when it is shut down you will still be producing a certain amount of test, even though it may be minimal. Maybe shut down isn't exactly the best word to describe it. I just think once it's suppressed, it's supressed and there's no half way supressed about it. But that's just my opinion, proof would be in the test results when test is measured.

I guess I am just another "opinion". Believe whatever the fuck you want

 

[pa1ad]

not 1 PA, but what people have always told me is that once it's supressed, it's supressed. From what i've read, there's no half way supressed in the picture. People were asking about d-bol and other orals, how they could take it w/ minimal affects on the HTPA. People kept answering saying it would shut down the HTPA. I know the levels of natural testosterone will vary according to length of time on supplement/drug, the type of drug, etc. But i think when it is shut down you will still be producing a certain amount of test, even though it may be minimal. Maybe shut down isn't exactly the best word to describe it. I just think once it's suppressed, it's supressed and there's no half way supressed about it. But that's just my opinion, proof would be in the test results when test is measured.

A better way to put it is that what i said is complete fact, and that i have studied this both on a theoretical and practical basis for years now. Perhaps you are just unaware of this. So basically, whether you choose to believe me or not, I am right and those other guys are wrong.

 

[riskybizz007]

"No, there are varying degrees of suppression. Rarely is anyone ever completely suppressed. Depending on the amount and potency of exogenous steroid in the system, LH and FSH levels will decrease accordingly." by pa1ad

i completely agree w/ your statement that there are varying degrees of suppression. My question to you is when people say, "it will shut down your HTPA" does that mean it will be merely suppressed for a period of time, or does it mean it wont be producing any amount of test at all?

2nd question: Can suppression lead to "shut down" b/c people are always talking about the HTPA being "shut down" and i'm not sure if what they mean is that it is suppressed or it's just completely shut down. I can't imagine it to be completely shut down so i figure it is merely suppresed and like you said it varies.

 

[pa1ad]

"No, there are varying degrees of suppression. Rarely is anyone ever completely suppressed. Depending on the amount and potency of exogenous steroid in the system, LH and FSH levels will decrease accordingly." by pa1ad

i completely agree w/ your statement that there are varying degrees of suppression. My question to you is when people say, "it will shut down your HTPA" does that mean it will be merely suppressed for a period of time, or does it mean it wont be producing any amount of test at all?

2nd question: Can suppression lead to "shut down" b/c people are always talking about the HTPA being "shut down" and i'm not sure if what they mean is that it is suppressed or it's just completely shut down. I can't imagine it to be completely shut down so i figure it is merely suppresed and like you said it varies.

When people (who are these "people" BTW) say "it will shut down your HTPA" they are technically incorrect. Some HPTA function always remains. The extent of the shutdown is related to the steroid taken, dose taken, length of time taken.

Most people that discuss this subject do not really know the facts. So you should just be aware of that.

 

[riskybizz007]

i know what you mean... sometimes you can't tell who knows their stuff and who doesn't.

 

[growin']

Well, after one week, I am up 2.5 pounds. Calipers show that BF has not changed. I did not eat quite as much as I'd like, due to work mostly, but I ate pretty well.

It will be interesting to see what happens in week two. This is no dbol, but I am happy. I think the best feature so far, is the jacked pre-workout feeling the nasal spray gives.

 

[growin']

Week 2 is now over. I am up another 3.5lbs. Total gain for 2 weeks was 6 pounds, with caliper measurements staying the same +/1 a mm. Not bad....Lets see what I keep.