Not Lean or Massive. Which One First???

[NewGuy1980]

I know this isnt really an AS question, but it could lead to my first cycle, and most of the pro body builders reside on this board. I am 20 yrs old, 5'8 -- 173 lbs probably 16-18% BF. I am not a hard gainer (Working out on a off for a year I went from 155 to 173 -all natural-BF% stayed the same). My questions is, I have never been lean in my life, I want that Ronnie Coleman look - eventually, but i am developing a hardcore bodybuilding program right now (getting laid off gives you that luxury of time) and want to know if it would be better to cut my BF now, then go for mass later. Or just start mass building now and cut my BF later. 2 major reasons why i ask. I know you have to dedicate your life to working out/dieting if you want the results I desire, and I'll plainly admit - I havent. I have a really hard time losing weight. I put on muscle rather easy (go figure, my dad is 5'2 130 lbs). I think if I cut my BF at least to the point to see my abs (never have), my motivation would skyrocket and there would be no stopping me. Also, I am thinking if i go on a bulking cycle now, my BF will sky rocket and it will be that much harder to cut my BF% down. So I leave this with you. What do you think?? I am pretty sure you will say "goals are on a personal basis, go with what you think will make you more happy, but I am just curious to see what the experienced suggest. I mean thats what this is all about right?

On a side note, I picked up some boxing gloves, a heavy bag, and a speed bag. Is boxing a great fat cutting workout. Definetly a stress reliver, but will it help shed some BF. I mean I run for at least 1/2 hr every other day, but I think boxing will improve my upper body strength as well as definetion. Any thoughts.

Being a new guy, any thoughts/comments are apprecaited. Even if its to slam me for asking a stupid question. (as long as its done appropriatley).

 

[NewGuy1980]

Bump....c'mon, no help???

 

[Italianboy]

Personally,If I could go back w2years ago when I started,I say"Cut first".But is jus a personal idea about it.

In theory if you add lean mass first then you'll be able to cut down more easly due to greater muscle-mass gained(more are you muscles more it is easy cutting).SInce you don't seems to have great mass(I think you are about 79 kg,right?)first add some kgs then start a cutting cycle.

 

[NewGuy1980]

Thanks Italian (I am 50%).
That was exactly the sort of suggestion I was looking for. I am not that massive, and eventually would like to be. I think I agree with you that in adding more LEAN mass now, it will be easier to cut up later.

Thanks Bro

 

[TxLonghorn]

Yeah, but it is so much more gratifying to be lean and see changes. But maybe that's just me.

 

[NewGuy1980]

I have to agree with you as well TX. I just think that if i put on some mass, then cut up, it will be that much MORE gratifying cause i will be bigger as well. So I will keep posted. I am not doing AS just yet (being I am only 20) so I am gonna stick with protien shakes and creatine for about 1-2 more years (since this is my first real dedicated traing/eating cycle) and if I stick with it, I will take the plunge then. There are so many young guys out there, like I was till i came to this board, who havent really dedicated their time to training and eating right and already question use of steroids. I think if you dont have a decent foundation to work off of, dont even consider it. So well see how it goes (i am going to take some before and after pics to prove to a couple guys that I am dedicated so my training isnt questioned the next time I start asking about AS. I hope you all agree.
Good luck with training all!

 

[XBiker]

Looks like you are doing some research, New Guy, that is good.

The better shape you are in going in to your first cycle, the better results you will attain.

Too many people us AAS as a crutch to make up for a sedentary lifestyle and rely on it to take them where their body could naturally go.

My $.02 is work you body to its' natural potential, find your weaknesses, and then decide what you want to do.

It's refreshing to see someone use their brain and logic to make decisions about their body.

 

[muscleup]

I would pull down the b.f% down to about 12% naturally and then start a cycle your body will be extremely Anabolic at this time and you want have to worry about putting on to much b.f%,Just remember to keep the diet clean!

 

[STORM SHADOW]

It's up to you bro. Vince Giranda would say cut first then build mass. Other's that I agree with say for YOUR situation (you say you build very easily), you must be Meso-Endomorph being Meso as the Dominant trait because you did not say you were a fat ass. So for YOU......not all......I would say you can have the best of both worlds. Cut all dairy, fry, etc. to a typical BBer diet of high protein, moderate carbs, low fat and do cardio for 30mins 3x's per week. You should be able to grow like mad still and start losing fat. When you wake up......take an ECA & one before you work out. Don't eat anything other than fruit 3 hours before bed. Concentrate on mass until you are close to where you want to be.......a couple more years.......then start your cutting diet. Zero carb high protein 6 days & high carb on the 7th.

 

[muscleup]

Those are also good suggestions to Storm Shadow,I guess it could go either way.

 

[mlomker]

I think it really has to do with your goals. Do you dream about being 250+ lbs or do you just want to look like one of the guys in an A&F catalog? Different goals require different approaches.

I'm personally not looking to get huge so I got cut first. Now I'm working on adding mass. I'll get to 220 or so (I'm 6'0") and leave it at that.

 

[BigWh1tey]

If your 173 and you want to look like RC , youve answered your own question, you aint gonna get there by cutting your calories.
Take a look at some of RCs off season picks and youll see that he still blows up like a tick in the off season.
Set a goal for size reach it, then carefully and slowly diet and cardio your way down to your target BF. ( those tanita scales are a joke by the way) .

What are your workouts like now ?

 

[rugger]

Exactly-with your goal, just get hyooge. Then cut.

I myself have been contemplating the very same thing, as many here do I'm sure. In some respects you feel like you could see and appreciate the progress more if you cut back to around 10% or less, but then you know if you do that you will have to sacrifice some muscle to do so. It's kinda a paradox.

Good luck
Rugger

 

[BigAndy69]

I think you should cut first.

You've never actually been sucessful at dieting and you don't know how to diet. I'm like you, I gain muscle very easily, but I can't lose fat for my life. For a year, I spend trying everything I could to diet and see what works for me. I went from a fat 210lbs to a lean but small 185lbs. Now I'm 200lbs at about 16% Bf. I can bulk and not worry to much about fat gains, because I KNOW how to diet and what works for me.

The last thing you want to do is bulk and then realise that you don't know how to "cut".

 

[Primo_man]

Cutting first is the best overall choice if you want most of your weigh gained on the cycle to be muscle. The lower your Bf% the more muscle growth is favored over fat growth. For example, if you get down to 5% Bf, 70% of your weight gain will be muscle and the rest fat, and this percentage decreases as the Bf% goes up. Also, if you diet until right before the cycle you'll get an anabolic rebound effect further favoring muscle gain. Now go cut some cals!

 

[jstrong20]

I would probably get as big as I can because its almost winter and start a cutting cycle a month or so before summer when looking good counts. But I also lose fat easy so I geuss it just depends on body type.

 

[Dantes]

I'd go for cutting first, because the results are much more noticable, which really helps with motivation. Gaining 10 lbs of muscle really isn't that noticable at 18-20% BF in my opinion, you'll still look pretty much the same (similar shape, just bigger), especially if you are checking the mirror everyday. However if you bring yourself down from 18% all the way down to say 7-8% and look in the mirror, you're going to be saying "holy fuck". I think in your case that cutting would be more motivational that gaining 10 lbs of muscle, considering you've never seen your abs before, and believe me it's a great feeling.

Then when the time comes to hit the sauce, you can start lean, and you'll look a million bucks. A chubby dude who gains 15-20 lbs of muscle, is still a chubby dude. I don't think anyone would every even think that "Chubby Dude" was using. But a lean guy who gains 15-20 lbs of muscle... people will start to wonder.

D

 

[NewGuy1980]

Guys I appreciate all of the Feedback.
Right now my diet consists of a lot of grilled chicken, rice for complex carbs (not too much) then what ever the veggie is that night. I weight 173 and I am taking in 200 - 210 grams of protein. Is this enough to promote growth?? I know you at least have to get 1-1.5 grams per lbs of body weight. I am not that advanced of a body builder and I took some time off so I am pretty much starting fresh.

Sun - 30 mins of cardio
Mon - seated preacher curls
tricepts pulldowns

30 mins of cardio
Tues - 25-30 mins cardio
Weds - s

 

[NewGuy1980]

sorry accidentally hit post.

sun - preacher curls/standing barbell curls (alternate)
tricept pulldown/tricept pushdown (alternate)
incline bench and flat bench
weighted crunches and weighted torso twists
vertical DB shoulder presses and incline shoulder presses
8 mins warmup and 30 mins straight cardio

Mon - 8 mins warmup 30 mins straight cardio

Tues - leg presses (I cant squat a lot so I am building strenghth in my legs so I dont look like an idiot squatting with barely any weight (I only rep 310 on the leg press machine).
leg extensions
calf raises
individual standing hamstring curls

wed - 8 mins warm up 30 mins cardio

thurs - repeat sun

friday - repeat monday

sat - repeat tues

usually one of the days thats strictly cardio I might take as a rest day. I havent incorporated a split program yet because my body needs conditioning first. I can barely move after a day of 2 body parts, 10 sets per. I usually aim for 8-12 reps and the last set I always go to failure, usually about 8-10th rep. I figure for a few months I alternate upper body and lower body workouts. I think I am going to bulk up over the winter and when spring comes around I will cut down harsh. So that will give me nov dec jan feb march maybe april to get bigger, and april may and june to cut. What do you guys think. Am I not working out enough??? Any ways to alter my training?? Thanks all!!

 

[mike001]

you are already starting to over train.. you are repeating after 4 days when you need 7days to heal. this is how i workout and it works great. this will also extend your healing time.

Monday-chest
3sets 8x dumbell incline
3sets 8x flat bench
3sets 8x decline bench
3sets 12+(burnout) cable flies

tues-biceps, back
3sets 8x(very heavy) curl bar.
3sets 8x preacher curls(dumbell)
3sets 8x concentrate curls(dumbell)
3sets 12+(burnout) single arm cable curls

3sets 8x pull ups
3sets 8x cable chest pull
3sets 8x dead lifts(very heavy)
3sets 12+body raise(like a backwards situp, except on your stomach)

wednesday-triceps
3sets 8x skull crushers
3sets 8x pull down(cable)
3sets 8x behind head lifts
3 sets 15+ bar dips(as many as you can)

thrs-shoulders
3sets 8x dumbell military press
3sets 8x chin pull ups(raise to the chin with curl bar)
5sets 10+ arm raises(burnout)

friday-legs
3sets 8x squats
3sets 8x leg press
3sets 8x leg raises
3sets 8x leg curls
3sets 20+ calfs(however you may want to do them)

sat-off
sun-off

i hope this helped, try it for a few weeks, it worked perfect for me and i started to grow. good luck,
Mike001

 

[NewGuy1980]

I know, I am only giving 4 days of rest. But if you look at my training, I am only doing 1-2 excersises per body part. Like chest, I only do 6 sets every four days. Is that really over training? My muscles arent sore when it comes time to work them out again (but they are for two-three days YIKES) , and I really go beyond mental failure when I lift. I give my workouts my all, but I only do 3-6 sets per body part. You are doing 18-24 sets. Do you see where I am coming from??? Its kinda like you are cramming my two days into one of yours. If I had a decent training backround I would be all over your workout, but I dont even have a decent basis to work from. I mean sheesh. I cant even max my body weight (bench press). (I max bench 165). I only leg press 310. Thats gotta tell you that i am pretty inexperienced. So I am going to copy your workout, and in two-three months I am all over it. I appreciate your help bro, good luck with training.