Nolva/clomid PCT debate

[Vascular Freak]

I have used nolva at 40mg ed in my past PCT with great results, never really experienced any crash. This time around I started with clomid and nolva. Just recently I dropped the nolva while still taking 50mg clomid and it feels as though my test levels really decreased without using the nolva (increased sorness, lack of pump, a little depressed etc)

I am thinking of adding the nolva @ 20mg ed for the remainder of my PCT.

Is nolva better at stimulating test production but not as good as clomid for actual HPTA recovery? Would using a low dose of each be better than one or the other?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

you were recently taking 100mg of clomid and if you recently dropped the nolva (within the last week) your change in tamox blood levels is minimal.


could you lay out the time line for your cycle (including 2 weeks dosages) and subsequent PCT dosages, etc.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21. Links
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

 

[Vascular Freak]

Following my last week of test prop and HCG I started 100mg clomid, 40mg nolva, while still using 50mg proviron and 3 pumps aifm from my previous 14 week run.

After 2 weeks of 100mg c and 40m n I droppped the nolva completly and lowered clomid to 50mg. I definetly noticed a drop in test levels after about 3 days.

I am still using clomid at 50mg (end of week 3) and was contemplating adding in 10mg nolva ed since studies have shown that low dose nolva stimulates test by an average of 150%.

 

[Ulter]

If you're still using AIFM you wouldn't need the nolva. Just the Clomid. You should also have kept the Proviron. Yes studies show a low dose of nolva increases test. But studies also show that an AI increases it more and in more men on average.

 

[Vascular Freak]

Ulter, I am still using the proviron at 50mg and 3 pumps aifm along with 50mg clomid. I might add in 5 mg nolva ed and see what happens.

At some point I will need to drop the proviron.... when is a good time? I have no sex drive at all right now, not really worried about though. Just want to maintain size and muscle hardness.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

you dont need 3 pumps of AIFM off cycle. cut it back to 1-2 pumps.

 

[Vascular Freak]

you dont need 3 pumps of AIFM off cycle. cut it back to 1-2 pumps.

I seems to be holding a little water.... maybe its just that the pump is not the same as while on so I feel softer?? I'll try 2x per day and see what happens.

However I think that nolva for PCT at 40-50mg is more effective than clomid (atleast from my experience). The nolva just gives me more "symptoms" of higher test levels as opposed to clomid.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[MR. BMJ]

I notice much better recovery from Clomid. Unless one gets too emotional or gets severe tracers in their vision, I would never recommend it behind nolva.

I'd definately lower the AIFM down to 1-2 pumps/d.

I really think that at 3 pumps of AIFM per day post PCT is suppressing estrogen too much. Proviron will not do much in keeping sex drive up if estrogen is too low. This can be validated by those who use Letro while still on test and receiving a considerate drop in sex drive.

BMJ

 

[Vascular Freak]

Is there really any benefit of proviron in PCT except for libido?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

most evidence indicates that is it not suppressive and may even help with HPGA restoration