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instant.muscle
New member
hey who dosnt do pct w/ stuff like clomid and nolva. i know some people who just don't use it, they get on some glutamine and creatine and they say it works for them i was thinkin bout trying it out. n e one?
no pct
- Thread starter instant.muscle
- Start date
S
shawnerk
Guest
I dont think those will do what pct does, but may be good with your nolva/clomid/hcg- someone else help him out...?
E
escher
Guest
instant.muscle said:
Good to see I'm not the only one with nothing better to do on Christmas Eve. Let's see if I can be thorough without being long-winded...
Creatine and gultamine might mask some of the symptoms of the post-cycle crash, but they don't treat the problem. The problem is hormonal. Supression of the HPTA. Creatine does nothing for this. Nor does glutamine. It's an amino acid. Nuff said. C/G will aid in "keeping" or contiunuing to feel strong even when discontinuing steroid therapy. I suppose you could run the C/G long enough for your HPTA to recover, but I wouldn't advise it.
PCT is a BIG deal to most of the vets on this board. It's not for everyone. It's smart for most people. I knew a guy in his early 30s who did an 8-week cycle of Sust @ 500/wk and came off cold turkey. He didn't feel a crash or anything. It defies all logic, but again, different strokes for different--well, you know.
Whether or not you choose to run some form of PCT should be based on the type of drugs in your cycle, your physical and hormonal health, and the dose and duration of the cycle. 4 short weeks on Anadrol would DEFINITELY need PCT. 8 weeks on Anavar? No PCT needed due to mild nature of drug. Speaking of, this would be a good place for your creatine and glutamine...
Expect to see some more in-depth and technical posts on this thread, or just watch it get pushed to the bottom of the list because none of the vets want to dignify it with an answer. Good luck regardless.
-e
liquidmuscle
Well-known member
DIVISION said:You do that, holmes.....
Watch that instant.muscle turn to instant.bitchtits and estrogen elevation!
DIV
escher said:
Funny I just seen this thread because I was just thinking about this actually. My last few cycles I didn't use PCT and recovered just fine. I never suffer from gyno problems and don't use anti-estrogens/aromatise's during my cycle anymore either and no problems for me. Everyone is different and reacts differently though and to everyone I would suggest being on the safe side but alot of it depends on your genetics, age, how much steroids you took and how long and lastly how you train and eat after your cycle ends.
Patrick Steele
New member
I don't use any standard PCT either. I tried clomid and nolva in the past, but hated them both. Clomid made me want to kill myself and I am one of the happiest people in the world. Nolva didn't do much for improved recovery either. I just stick to creatine to keep my strength up and tribulus and yohimbe to keep the sex drive up. I never suffer from depression or low motivation by comming off and have never felt a crash of any sort. The only time I felt a major crash is when I took the devil's pill aka clomid.
Patrick Steele
New member
Mr. Burns said:
My last cycle. 12 weeks
200 mgs test
50 mgs anavar
300 mgs EQ
gained 15 lbs of pure solid muscle. Kept 11 lbs with no clomid, no nolva, no HCG.
Patrick Steele
New member
Mr. Burns said:
Many people who cycle low doses and just stick to a good diet recover fine. In the 60's and 70's no one did PCT and most were recovering fine without suffering major crashes or depression. Your test levels will always rebound if you are young as long as you do not abuse.
got2getripped
New member
Must have balls of steelPatrick Steele said:
Patrick Steele
New member
Got2GetRipped said:
My balls never shrink on cycle. But I think that depends on the individual. I know people who take over 1 gram of test and their balls stay the same size. I don't think ball size has much to do with test production. I know people who's balls restore during post cycle, but their test levels are still very low for a few weeks afterwards.
anthony518
New member
I don't have any PCT for my next cycle of Omna 10 amps and 100 D-Bol. What to do? Can I take something from a nutrional store? Like DHEA
Patrick Steele
New member
anthony518 said:
It depends how your body responds and also depends on your doses and age. If you had a choice, just stick to creatine and tribulus. I ad yohimbe as well for added sex drive. Don't fall for all that 6-oxo crap. I know many will say that tribulus does nothing, but I sware by it. It keeps my aggression and stamina up and helps with my sex drive.
Mr. Burns
New member
What were the reasons for not taking the routine PCT? Did you all not have money at the time. My reasoning was that it wasn't readily available and I didn't know too much about proper PCT at the time. I took extremely low levels of AS for short short cycles. I gained some and I lost some, but I have also upped the cardio more than ever before so I believe that catabolism played a role in some lose. I try to balance this with increased protien and clean eating. I think that it's a very good idea to cover your ass though and get it. You could use the estrogen blockage to not get soo bloated and to prevent fat development. Also GYNO!!!!!
Patrick Steele
New member
Mr. Burns said:
As or me, money is never an object. I stopped doing the tradional PCT after trying clomid and it almost made me want to kill myself. Nolva caused simular feelings, but not as intense. But in general all anti e's cause depression and major at times. I got so fed up of feeling that way and one time decided to take no pct and focus more on an excellent diet with creatine and tribulus. To my amazement, I recovered fine. For the first time ever, I did not feel any depression going off cycle. Tribulus and yohimbe actually make me feel pretty good compared to clomid. So from now on this is the PCT that works best for me. I
liquidmuscle
Well-known member
there is a guy at my gym who doesnt use clomid,hcg or nolvadex he just uses proviron?!!!!,,,,he is a little under 6ft however he is a solid beast on/off cycle..what gives? i almost always lose everything regardless, my nat test levels are shot
H-isBack
New member
anthony518 said:
if you dont have clomid or Nolv (i dont use clomid) you can go with tribulus and yohimbe, like your man above said, a lot of people dont have much faith in trib and it does take a few weeks to kick the LH but i swear by it, once ive been taking it for a while it feels like cyp, and i use it a lot between cycles and PCT, ive been cycling for 6 years now and only 3 of them on PCT with only one of them using clomid, ive came of cycles bare back without any PCT and NEVER crashed, the first time i ever felt bad was wth clomid, i never used it again and strong and hard throughout, sure i might drop a lb or two post cycle but thats to be expected anyway with the cahnges your body undergoes after cycling, hope that helps some.
H
anthony518
New member
Ok so what would be a PCT with the tribulus, yohimbee, and DHEA. After a cycle like this? week 1-2 500mg Omna
2-8 250mg Omna
week 1-4 20mg e/d D-Bol?
2-8 250mg Omna
week 1-4 20mg e/d D-Bol?
Mr. Burns
New member
How exactly do prohormones that are taken to boost test levels help when they're substituted for PCT. Wouldn't the use of test boosters have the same effect as the test in that they bring up test levels. Doesn't dhea convert to andro which in turn converts to testosterone. Wouldn't taking this supress natural test levels after cycle, and how exactly do these supps work. Gimmee your thoughts and I will return after I google this shiz. You would have to take a grip of these supps due to the changes while they convert, compared to normal PCT.
You would have to take a grip of these supps due to the changes while they convert, compared to normal PCT.
anthony518
New member
Actually, I think that the supp increase your body's own production of test. If they where a synthetic Test, by converting, then they would be illegal. The tribulus is an antiestrogen, so it would allow the levels to be inhibited while the test returns to normal. The DHEA causes your body to produce more test, so when you use these together you get lower levels of est and higher levels of test.
H-isBack
New member
Mr. Burns said:How exactly do prohormones that are taken to boost test levels help when they're substituted for PCT. Wouldn't the use of test boosters have the same effect as the test in that they bring up test levels. Doesn't dhea convert to andro which in turn converts to testosterone. Wouldn't taking this supress natural test levels after cycle, and how exactly do these supps work. Gimmee your thoughts and I will return after I google this shiz.
Tribulus sitmulates the LH which reinstates the bodys normal/natural test levels.
H
H-isBack
New member
anthony518 said:
I dont understand this cycle, why not 1-2 250mg and then 500mg, and 10mg Dbol 1-8, youd be getting the same overall dose but spreading it more evenly across the cycle. and dont be mislead, tribulus and yohimbe are not PCT replacements, they are better than having nothing - if you need it.
H
S
shawnerk
Guest
i'd suggest real pct, but not preachin, good luck
anthony518
New member
I was told to do the cycle that way. How should I do it? Please help!? I am worried about what to do. I have a friend who is suppling me with 100 D-Bol and 10 amps of Omna 250. How should I use it? I really have no way of getting anything for PCT. Money is not an issue, just being able to get it. HELP! please!
E
escher
Guest
anthony518 said:
Yes, you do. www.ancillaryguys.com.
Mods had better not f**ing sensor this "source" post. It's legit for E-F users and this guy needs to know about it. You can get Clomid or Nolva for very little cheese. The website is legit and they will not scam you. Many members on this board use AG with great success.
Bottom line: if you can't afford or acquire some ancillaries for proper PCT--DON'T ATTEMPT YOUR CYCLE. Why put your body through 10 weeks of serious anabolic hormone therapy if you have only hope or optimism that your body will come off OK. You risk losing money, and more importantly, losing your hard-earned gains. Not worth the risk bro. "PCT or stay natural and clean."
-e
anthony518
New member
Cool. I looked at the site and will be ordering both. Will one bottle of each be enough?
anthony518
New member
Or how about getting two bottles of the Nolvadex and using it during the cycle if needed and after for the PCT. That way if I don't use it I during I will have it after. If I do use it I will have enough time to get more.
E
escher
Guest
anthony518 said:
Yes you could. You'll need 20mg ED or so to be effective, depending on what your cycle is like. So one bottle from AG should last for a month taken @1mL ED.
Nolvadex has a pretty long active for an oral drug--5-7 days. This in mind, it is theroretically POSSIBLE to run your Nolva on an EOD schedule if you're short on cash, ancillaries, or connections. A lot of bros will disagree with me here, but f**k them. This is my $0.02. You can do what you will with it.
You didn't mention what your actual cycle will be like. If there is test or Dianabol in the equation, Nolva will probably be mandatory--ESPECIALLY at the end during your PCT. Best of luck.
-e
Mr. Burns
New member
I really don't see much of a problem with this cycle. Omna is basically sust. You're front loading the first 2 weeks at 500mg per week. It will have some short esters in there so for the first 2 weeks you'll get the kick from those, while the long esters build up. you then taper down the test for the rest of the cycle at 250mg per week. When I dabbled with sust I got screwed and only got 4 amps instead of my eight. I only took 250mg each week for the four weeks thinking the rest of them would come when they should have, but at week three I was feeling solid with the stuff. You also have the d-bol that your using for the first 4 weeks at 20mg a day. This is ok too. What is your past cycle histroy like? For a light cycle this is what I would do. I haven't front loaded ever but wanted to see what the talk was about. I can see some potential bennys to doing it if you're looking for a jump start. I don't agree with taking the d-bol at less than 20mgs a day at all. To me that's too small of an amount.anthony518 said:
anthony518
New member
Cool. I have done a Test 200 8 week, a Deca/Anadrol 10 week (10 weeks 300mg Deca and 5 weeks on Anadrol), and a Sust 6 week (got screwed too). Now doing this one. Pretty sure about the front loading and the 20mg D-Bol ed, but not about the PCT. I was thinking about using Arimidex for the first 4 weeks because of the D-Bol on top of the Omna, then having the two bottles of the Clomid for the PCT, at 100mg ed for 4 weeks. Good?
anthony518
New member
GNC, thats what I used for my last Sust cycle.
anthony518
New member
No creatine, just the tribulus. A lot. The recommended times 4.
Patrick Steele
New member
If I were you, I would just take the traditional PCT of nolva and clomid and see how you recat to it. Some people react to them very well with no sides. But for quite a few clomid can make the happiest person in the world want to kill themselves for no reason. Clomid really messes with my head. I know some will say that it's because of the hormones comming down and stuff, but I don't think that's the case because with tribulus this never happened to me. As for me I take 10 tabs of tribestan a day.
Mr. Burns
New member
Loths said:
Ok I don't see your reasoning for Clen and ephedrine as being anti catabolic. These two products are used primarily for fat burning and they speed up your metabolism. Higher metabolisms make skinny guys skinny. These products would cause catabolism due to the effect on your metabolism. They suppress hunger as well so how's that gonna help you gain weight? Where did you find this garbage info?
Back to anthony: I think you have something there too. Most people do the traditional clomid/novla combo and do fine. Some run the arimidex during cycle to help prevent/slow estrogen. I like your thiking with this as well, but I would suggest to get some HCG in your PCT. It really comes down to how your body reacts with the chemicals and It's hard to tell cause everyones different ya know. Without blood tests it's hit and miss, but I'd rather have a pinch hitter just in case I have trouble swinging. LOL!!! Let me know about the clen though cause I could be wrong about the catabolism. I just thought fat burners and catabolism went hand in hand.
Last edited:
For those of you that don't use Clomid or Nolva. Do you take ZMA along with your creatine/Glutamine and Tribulus or is it bunk? I'm coming off 8wks of Anavar at 30mg/day. I"m taking 15mg of Nolva a day with Creatine Ethyl Ester and ZMA. I'm 5 days off the var and my lifts still went up today. 
clomid question..
It seems like those who choose to use it, use it for about 4 weeks, with a declining dosage.
Just wondering, if you were on the fence about whether or not to use it, would it be somewhat effective to just use it, say, for like 10 days, instead of 4 weeks? Better than not using it at all? Or for example, if your cycle was small, like 250mg test for 10 weeks (first cycle), again, would just 10 days of clomid help to give things (um....nuts...
) a bit of a boost?
Also, some mention taking nolva during PCT. How do you decide whether or not to take Nolva during PCT? I'm assuming it wouldn't be needed -during- the cycle at 250mg/wk (but on hand just in case).
thx for any help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It seems like those who choose to use it, use it for about 4 weeks, with a declining dosage.
Just wondering, if you were on the fence about whether or not to use it, would it be somewhat effective to just use it, say, for like 10 days, instead of 4 weeks? Better than not using it at all? Or for example, if your cycle was small, like 250mg test for 10 weeks (first cycle), again, would just 10 days of clomid help to give things (um....nuts...
) a bit of a boost?Also, some mention taking nolva during PCT. How do you decide whether or not to take Nolva during PCT? I'm assuming it wouldn't be needed -during- the cycle at 250mg/wk (but on hand just in case).
thx for any help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Before you go calling this garbage info, do your fuckin research, noob.Mr. Burns said:
Author Topic: Is Clenbuterol Anti-Catabolic??
Quoted from WAR '96:
"Clenbuterol, above all, has a strong anticatabolic effect, which means it decreases the rate at which protein is reduced in the muscle cell, consequently causing an enlargement of muscle cells. For this reason, numerous athletes use Clenbuterol after steroid treatment to balance the resulting catabolic phase and thus obtain maximum strength and muscle mass."
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JuanDeLaCruz
Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 120
From:
Registered: Nov 2000
posted January 24, 2001 09:06 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
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Thanks for the info guys!
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100% Juice........Florida Orange
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ANABOLINI
Cool Novice
Posts: 32
From:N.W.IND.
Registered: Jan 2001
posted January 24, 2001 10:14 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
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2THICK, Good call. Use it to suppress the catabolic effects after a cycle along with your clomid. Throw in some HCG or equivalent
to get the boys back up and working.
Patrick Steele
New member
Mr. Burns said:
Well as Ive said above. If you have never done regular PCT, I strongly suggest it. Take clomid with nolva. If you find yourelf having unbearable sides from the clomid, do not use it next time and just take tribulus. Ive read that many others include maca and avena for PCT, but Ive had great success with tribulus alone. But keep in mind that I take very low doses compared to people here which makes it alot easier for me to recover.
shortstack
Banned
DIVISION said:You do that, holmes.....
Watch that instant.muscle turn to instant.bitchtits and estrogen elevation!
DIV
lol
Mr. Burns
New member
BionicBC said:Before you go calling this garbage info, do your fuckin research, noob.
Author Topic: Is Clenbuterol Anti-Catabolic??
Quoted from WAR '96:
"Clenbuterol, above all, has a strong anticatabolic effect, which means it decreases the rate at which protein is reduced in the muscle cell, consequently causing an enlargement of muscle cells. For this reason, numerous athletes use Clenbuterol after steroid treatment to balance the resulting catabolic phase and thus obtain maximum strength and muscle mass."
And for my 100th post I would like to say thanks to BionicBC for giving me this little bit of insight into the world of clen. Like I stated at the bottem of my post, I could have been wrong about the anticatabolismic effects. It seemed to me that the fella who posted about it was comparing it to ephedrine, which I don't think would help with anabolism. At the same time I found research stating that clen increases the heart rate. Some people have said that they experience the shakes from clen. This would lead me to believe that with the increased heart rate and possible stress (shakes), one could expect an increase in their metabolism as well, which in turn could trigger a catabolic effect. It may be possible that the anticatabolic effect present in clen, outweighs the increased metabolic effects. With that said I would like to add that my join date is a whole month earlier than yourself BC, so as far as board rights are concerned you my friend are noobier than me.
Mr. Burns
New member
I found this out. I hope your proud of me B.C. Thanks bro.
Description: Clenbuterol is a prescribed Asthma medication which is catabolic to fat and anabolic to muscle. Clenbuterol's most valid application seems to be as a pre-contest, cutting drug. It is a Beta-2 adrenergic agonist. This means it acts just like adrenaline (epinephrine) at a certain type of receptor named Beta-2.
I looks like clen is quite the optimal fat burner. It burns the fat and keeps the muscle in an anabolic state. I am enlightened!!!!!
Description: Clenbuterol is a prescribed Asthma medication which is catabolic to fat and anabolic to muscle. Clenbuterol's most valid application seems to be as a pre-contest, cutting drug. It is a Beta-2 adrenergic agonist. This means it acts just like adrenaline (epinephrine) at a certain type of receptor named Beta-2.
I looks like clen is quite the optimal fat burner. It burns the fat and keeps the muscle in an anabolic state. I am enlightened!!!!!
Mr. Burns said:
The info I have come from various sources and P_experience. As with any substance, Clen works well for some. Assuming that we are defining a cylce as periods of 8-14 weeks, then clen will be used at the end of that cycle to preserve most muscle tissue gained during the 'therapy,' it will not preserve liquid gains. This is confirmed by several scientific studies. Clen by it self is a third generation beta agonist, i.e beta-2-symphatomimetic, wich means that even though if not a hormone, it can be compared to steriods. In addition is similar in compostition to Winstrol Depot & Oxandrolone (Phillips-pg28, P. Grunding Bachman-pg49). It has beend shown that has a strong anti-catabolic effect, which reduce the rate of protein breakdown from the muscle cell. In proper circumstances it can even promote muscle hypertrophy, by preventing protein breakdown. In addition, Clen also has a distinct fat burning effect, by increase the body temperature.
The sources I have are numerous. I do enjoy reading all the scientific jargon available. To name my favorites: world anabolic review, Anabolic Reference Guide, Diari Di Farma sportiva, Das MIttel der Zukunft, Anabolicos y Androgenos, Muscle Media 2000, etc.
In order to for clen to do it job, and do it right, it must be used exclusive at the end of the cycle, and with a an alternating Blitz Cycle (no longer that 14 weeks). This cylce starts witht the most andorgenic/anabolic substances, and every 3 weeks, there is a shift of substnace to less anabolic/androgenic substances. Ex. 2 week DIana, 2 Week testo, 3 Week Deca, 3 week Equipose, 3 week Primo/Oxan. After this, then you star with all the noval, clomid, proviron, hcg, and clen.
With this cycle, most people keep about 95% of thier gain.. some even keep all.
It all depends on the athlete aims.. QUALITY MUSCLE (muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia) is the focus. Is really what you keep.
As for decrease in aptetite.. I have seen this happen to some. Side effect are your normal metabolism speed up. If some can handle it, then it has to reduce the Clen dosage.
The general opinion from several athele world wide is that it works but in a specific manner. Hope this helps.
Thanks for your input.
Re: clomid question..
BUMP for any answers to the above quote....
thx guys!
benny1970 said:It seems like those who choose to use it, use it for about 4 weeks, with a declining dosage.
Just wondering, if you were on the fence about whether or not to use it, would it be somewhat effective to just use it, say, for like 10 days, instead of 4 weeks? Better than not using it at all? Or for example, if your cycle was small, like 250mg test for 10 weeks (first cycle), again, would just 10 days of clomid help to give things (um....nuts...
Also, some mention taking nolva during PCT. How do you decide whether or not to take Nolva during PCT? I'm assuming it wouldn't be needed -during- the cycle at 250mg/wk (but on hand just in case).
thx for any help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUMP for any answers to the above quote....
thx guys!
anthony518 said:
Our sponsors onw joo.
Hmm.. how can we put it....do a mild cycle of high androgen/anabolic, for.. let say 12 weeks... do either the diamond or inverted pyramid pattern cycle... and NO PCT.. minus well skip the cycle.
Why.. you will (modestly saying) loose 50-60% of your lean muscle gains. Taking in consideration that for every pound of lean muscle tissue that you gett on a proper cycle, the body automatically put ~2 pound of liquid weight.
Worst case scenario (loose 50%) : if you gained 15, 10 will porblably be liquid, 5 will be lean muscle.
Stop you cycle, body enter on catabolic phase (high cortizone & estrogen, low natural Testosterone) = Bye bye muscle. SO, after gain 15 pounds, you lose 10 liquid lbs plus luckly 2.5 lean muscle.. YOU ARE ONLY KEEPING 2.5 pounds. Is this case better go with creatine!
And NOT to mention the psychological trauma of being puff and powerfull to being 80% flatter and 60% weaker. Few manage to not bounce back.
End message: dont cut corners, BUY ALL THE NECESARY ITEMS FOR A PROPER PCT!
Why.. you will (modestly saying) loose 50-60% of your lean muscle gains. Taking in consideration that for every pound of lean muscle tissue that you gett on a proper cycle, the body automatically put ~2 pound of liquid weight.
Worst case scenario (loose 50%) : if you gained 15, 10 will porblably be liquid, 5 will be lean muscle.
Stop you cycle, body enter on catabolic phase (high cortizone & estrogen, low natural Testosterone) = Bye bye muscle. SO, after gain 15 pounds, you lose 10 liquid lbs plus luckly 2.5 lean muscle.. YOU ARE ONLY KEEPING 2.5 pounds. Is this case better go with creatine!
And NOT to mention the psychological trauma of being puff and powerfull to being 80% flatter and 60% weaker. Few manage to not bounce back.
End message:
dont cut corners, BUY ALL THE NECESARY ITEMS FOR A PROPER PCT!
SuperDawgy
New member
JKurz1 said:
PCT is for pussies! Real men stay on year round! LOL
SuperDawgy
New member
JKurz1 said:
Who in their right mind wants kids! Shit, i have one i'll sell you cheap!
SuperDawgy
New member
JKurz1 said:
I would, but i'm afraid my 3.5lb teacup poodle might kill it. She's mean as a snake after eating a crack lab test mouse.
