No Increase in Muscular Endurance

[Gladiola]

OK, I teach BodyPump.... barbell group exercise class consisting of traditional lifting moves (clean & press, squat, bench press, push-ups, etc.) done with real high reps... super slow, etc.

You put weight on for each 'track' (song) diff weight for diff muscle groups. I have been teaching it for nearly 2 years & am still using the same weight for most tracks!!!

It just seems that if I go heavier, I feel it more in my knees for squats, more in my shoulders & wrists for chest, too much forarm pain on the biceps track, etc.

Of course, I know heavy lifting is better, but I do think there is some benefit to this light training as a supplement (I know, diet is most important, lifting #2, cardio 3, muscular endurance training #4 IMO!) But muscular endurance is, after all, one of the 5 main components of overall fitness. But why am I not increasing??

I've gotten significantly stronger in the past year on my regular lifting. Any ideas?
THX!

p.s. I know this type of musc endurance training is NOT strength training (a little fact most participants AND most aerobics instrusctors IMX *don't know*!) - but why should it also not INCREASE METABOLISM?? The more lean muscle mass we have, the faster the metabolism... but should working the 'slow twitch' muscle fibers ALSO increase lean mass *somewhat* & thus speed metabolism? If not, why not?

 

[wilson6]

You just answered your own question about the effectiveness of "Bodypump" style training.

Keep cardio and weights separate. There were some studies done a while back showing that cardio+weights did little for either cardiovascular fitness or strength.

That type of training has always been a fad in my mind designed for the chick mindset of what exercise for women should be.

W6

 

[Gladiola]

You just answered your own question about the effectiveness of "Bodypump" style training.

Ha ha... I know, it should have been glaringly apparent to me... I suppose I just wonder why my colleagues are able to lift more in this class even though I am stronger with traditional training.

The class really isn't supposed to be cardio, although I heard ACSM did a study on it & found that the HR does become elevated enough to yield some cardiovascular conditioning benefits... although we all know you can get your HR up with circuit training too, so this doesn't make it a "cardio workout" necessarily. Buuuut... I'll admit I heard this from the 'BodyPump' company & didn't check up on them... so I won't take it to be total truth unless I investigate myself.

Do you really think there is no benefit whatsoever to slow-twitch muscle fiber training & muscular endurance?

What about that PS.... I really am confused with that... is there no resulting increase in lean mass from working the type 2 fibers??

 

[Gladiola]

p.s. BodyPump has been around for at least 5 years or so.. which IMO means it has survived long enough to surpass being a mere 'fad'.

BodyPump itself aside, people have been doing high-rep low-weight for YEARS... we even see on THIS board how hard it is for every woman to erase what she thought she previously knew... the great 'toning' myth I fear is a bigger monster than we realize.

I try to do my part to eradicate the myth & spread truth every time I discuss fitness with a lady gym member... but I know I will only really get thru to very few....

 

[Gladiola]

Oprah ran a marathon. 'Nuff said.

Well... I'm a firm believer that if you want to teach someone something, you have to explain WHY - WHY they should lift heavy instead of take BodyPump, WHY they should not take BodyPump class 2 days in a row. I'd rather educate them (which, actually the director of the center encourages us to do) rather than 'nag' at them & harp.

So.... I tell them all the benefits of strength training, right?
Then I say, BodyPump is NOT strength training (cuz they think it is). It's muscular endurance training..... but THE BIG QUESTION... can I then truthfully say that they are NOT building lean mass with BodyPump & thus NOT getting those benefits of strength training.... & I'm not sure that I CAN say that in truth!!! Just don't want to mislead my members & look like an idiot!!!
Plus... I am fairly certain that this class gives them the benefit of increased bone density & thus decreased risk of osteoperosis.. so they DO get that benefit.

If I give Oprah as my reason for lifting instead of strictly cardio, I don't think that'll lend me credibility... plus I may be boo-ed off the stage by Oprah fans.

 

[Gladiola]

Hi Spatts!

I'm actually glad you posted that (just don't teach BodyPump) because I was going to write about that.

I really have been thinking of dropping it - since I don't fully believe in it. I just talked to my sister about it a little while ago. Here's why I don't want to drop it:

*It IS better than doing only cardio
*I get to teach them proper form for the exercises & why (& as I said, the exercises are traditional strength moves)
*I get to educate them on basics like: why not do it 2 days in a row?, why do regular strength training?
*Hopefully they apply this knowledge for some 'proper' training!
*If I don't teach it, plenty of people still do, so plenty of people will still be taking it -
i.e. it won't change much to not teach it, but I CAN make changes if I'm there & teaching.

OK, given all that info... is it still hypocritical for me to teach it being that I don't think it's an ideal way to train????

Oh.... and no student will ask 'why' I'm not teaching it... it doesn't matter much to them WHO is there... so long as someone leads class (It's pre-choreographed & all the same anyway). If I said I didn't want to waste their time, they'd think I was a B!#%$ & ignore me anyway.

I still want to find out if working type 1 fibers can lead to an increase in overall LBM & if not, why not?!

 

[wilson6]

Muscular endurance training is doing 50 reps on the leg sled with 500 lbs.

W6

 

[Gladiola]

Muscular endurance training is doing 50 reps on the leg sled with 500 lbs.

W6

Um, no, for me that would be suicidial!!! Isn't the amount of weight relative to the person's strength?
50 Reps is about what we do in Body Pump.

 

[Bikini Mod]

It is AMAZING what you can do if you set your mind to it....

Yes, all kinds of guttural primevil sounds have escaped my body....

HEHehehehhehehehhehheahhaahaohaohaahahhaaa

 

[SteelWeaver]

No kidding! I discover a new sound at least twice a month!

 

[wilson6]

"Um, no, for me that would be suicidial!!! Isn't the amount of weight relative to the person's strength?
50 Reps is about what we do in Body Pump."

I train a 56 yr old female that can get 50 reps with 450 and she is not a bodybuilder or fitness nut. Only played tennis before she started training with me.

Even the frail little distance runners I work with can get 360 for 50.

You ladies just don't know your potential, WITHOUT juice.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

Hey W6 - is that 50 non-stop in a row, or 25, 10 sec rest, 10, 10 sec rest, etc?

 

[Gladiola]

You ladies just don't know your potential, WITHOUT juice.

W6

Perhaps... but actually I never do the leg sled. I only started training legs recently & I do squats, walking lunges & deads - maybe inner/outer thigh & glute lifts on the cable - sometimes leg curl & extension, but not the leg sled. I don't know what my max would be.. .but 500 would squash me on a squat!

Never used juice tho, so I *only* know my potential without it.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Never used juice tho, so I *only* know my potential without it.

You don't HAVE to have juiced to know your potential.... You just have to decide that you are going to bust your ass AND THEN DO IT. Proper nutrition and a training partner that you TRUST helps tremendously.

The mind is your MOST powerful asset..... never say, "I can't."

My sister said the same thing before I got her on the sled and told her that she was going to complete 12 solid repititions with 5 45# plates on each side... TEN TOTAL. She was SHOCKED when she did it... and this was on her third set on the sled after doing 4 sets of squats. She was in UTTER DISBELIEF! She kept asking me if I "helped". I was like, "Look at me, I may be strong but HELLO I ain't no Hulk Hogan..... how much do you THINK I could possibly have helped?!" Now she isn't afraid of heavy weights any more. It wasn't that she was afraid that she woud get bulky . She was just afraid that SHE would be crushed....... not any more!

PS - she has NEVER EVEN taken an ECA stack!... doesn't even really take in extra protein in the form of MRP's... just eats like a horse and tries to do her best.

 

[FitFossil]

Never used juice tho, so I *only* know my potential without it.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought W6 meant 'women don't give themselves enough credit regarding their potential' when he said "You ladies just don't know your potential, WITHOUT juice."

I was thinking he meant it this way because women in general (juice or no juice) are afraid to really push their limits, even the ones who think they're training balls-to-the-wall, not just the ones who wanna tone and deliberately hold themselves back.

I haven't tried juice yet myself. But I am STILL surprising myself by finding new limits, whether it's what I can lift or how hard I can push myself. At any given time, I may think I've reached my limit, but I keep plugging along. Maybe I change my workout/diet a bit, and then BAM! I find a new limit. Granted the progress isn't as fast as when I first started training. I'm not a competitor and I don't have any deadlines, so I'm content (most of the time !) to progress slowly but surely. I think training is as much mental as it is physical.

 

[Gladiola]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought W6 meant 'women don't give themselves enough credit regarding their potential' when he said "You ladies just don't know your potential, WITHOUT juice."

I was thinking he meant it this way because women in general (juice or no juice) are afraid to really push their limits,

On the contrary... I believe *I* misunderstood what W6 said... I thought he was saying ladies don't give themselves enough credit so they use juice thinking they can't achieve a lot without it. FitFossil, I definitely think your interpretation was right in retrospect. I think my commute had melted my mind a bit!

Now this raises a *very* interesting discussion... does Gladi push her limits enough & give herself credit with the weight she can move???

Personally, I think so. I continue to grow & get stronger (except with BodyPump he he! But I don't really care about that!).

I agree that training is mental in large part. I do admit that I am careful how far I push tho...I train alone for 1, and 2 I do have some fear of injury on occasion....
Which raises the question... on that fine line between being TOO cautious & not pushing hard enough Versus pushing so hard you "annihlate the muscle", I think I'm cautious, but not overly so.

OK, did that make sense or did my 2.5 hours of meetings melt my mind even further?????

 

[VooDoo Lady]

Now this raises a *very* interesting discussion... does Gladi push her limits enough & give herself credit with the weight she can move??? Personally, I think so. I continue to grow & get stronger (except with BodyPump he he! But I don't really care about that!).

*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*

I know that I have only recently learned to really push myself. It was only a mere 3 weeks ago that I wasn't self conscious about making noises in the gym (other than farts ) I dare you to give up the "I workout alone and I'm frightened" excuse (I FINALLY HAVE) and really push it.

DIG DEEEEEEEEEEP GLADI!

 

[Gladiola]

DIG DEEEEEEEEEEP GLADI!

Too funny.... "Dig Deep" is something I say to my BodyPump classes when we're getting towards the end of the track & they're looking ready to drop the bar!

Aaaanyway.... I think I might start a new thread on this. Seriously, how likely is it to get injuried pushing it too hard when lifting??? Is it possible to push "TOO hard"???

VDL, you were the one who posted, "Am I training hard enough?/ Training Intensity?"
I sweat, I sometimes grunt, I am definitely sore the next day, sometimes 2 days, & most importantly, I'm seeing results! Both strength gains & hardness/size gains. --- isn't that how to judge if one is working hard enough?

I have gone to the point where my forearms were so sore I couldn't grip a jar to open it, & my abs were so sore sitting up just a *little* bit in bed to look at the clock made me want to cry - & laughing or taking a deep breat - OWW. I don't think that's healthy & good & I don't think that's where I need to be all the time to be working hard enough. Thoughts???

 

[Gladiola]

Wait wait...

is "making noise" synonymous with 'Pushing yourself hard'

i.e. Is it imossible to be pushing yourself if you are fairly quiet?

What if I'm gruntin' mentally but not audibly?

 

[Gladiola]

In fact, the more focused I am, the more quiet/inward I become.

I'm that way sometimes too.

But music for lifting... right there with ya! My choice: Rage against the machine

"F#& you I won't do whatcha tell me"

"We'll settle for nothing now, & we'll settle for nothing later!"

 

[VooDoo Lady]

I'm seeing results! Both strength gains & hardness/size gains. --- isn't that how to judge if one is working hard enough?

So what's your issue BIATCH? (j/k).....

I'll be down your way on Friday.....what kinda classes you got goin' on?

 

[MS]

I made significant LBM gains doing bodypump classes. I did them for two years, every other day. Several things I noticed with observation. Almost all of the other participants in the class didn't push themselves, and rarely increased their weights. It seemed as if they felt under peer pressure to not 'cop out' and stop short of the end of a class/track because of muscle failure. They seemed embarrased to drop their weights in the middle of a track. They made no muscle gains. The instructors were the worst. I think the pressure on the instructors (for whatever reason) to not drop their weights or stop short of the end of a track is even greater. This does not allow them to increase their weights and truly push themselves. I think the best thing an instructor could do is to teach good form first and foremost (consider this as a basis for future heavier training), followed by the concept of intensity. If possible, encourage your participnats to have two sets of weights ready for each exercise, one that is a little heavier than they think they're capapble of, and one that they know they can do. Have them always start with the heavier weight and go until failure, then swap to the lighter weight (or stop altogether if they can't even move the lighter weight for many more reps). This is the only way to increase strength and muscular endurance in this type of class. And of course, lead by example.

 

[wilson6]

That was a 25, 15, 10 w/20 sec rest. Regardless, for a 56 yr old women that's not bad.

I shouldn't have said anything about juice because it really had nothing to do with the comment. I just don't think most women know their (safe) limits in the gym.

Every time I take on a new female client (even one's that have trained before) I'll ask what they've done on certain machines. In most cases, I can double any weight they have been using the first time out on some exercises.

W6

 

[Gladiola]

Almost all of the other participants in the class didn't push themselves, and rarely increased their weights. It seemed as if they felt under peer pressure to not 'cop out' and
I think the pressure on the instructors (for whatever reason) to not drop their weights or stop short of the end of a track is even greater.

OMG Wow, thanks so much for sharing this!!!

You are 100% right that there is pressure on us (instructors) to "do every rep with them".

The class is designed & pre-choreographed by the Les Mills corporation out of New Zealand. it is VERY cult-like. They encourage us to wear the 'body pump colors' when we teach, there are 'BodyPump philosophies' - like commandments, etc. We ARE taught that we are supposed to DO EVERY REP WITH THEM... you're SOO right that this doesn't allow us to go heavier. Damn, why didn't I mention this little tid bit before?? Thanks so much for the reminder!

Additionally, the members DO experience peer pressure!!!!! I have had several ladies at the WOMEN ONLY club in the last several months openly & easily tell me they don't take the class because, "They feel intimidated & would feel uncomfortable with everyone else around them lifting more weight than they could." I found this surprising.. honestly. I suppose we who lift understand that there will *always* be someone in the weight room pushing around more than you.. what matters is out-doing yourself. These ladies never go in the free weight area, so I guess they don't understand.

But lastly... the form. It usually doesn't look too bad from on stage. But every time I watch a class someone else is teaching (so I'm watching from the back) I want to CRY The most simple stuff - like don't let your head hang & keep the spine in-line during push-ups... it's an absolute atrocity. The dead rows I saw just last night.... the bar was pulled up maybe 2 inches.

I'm thinking I need to get out of Group Fitness.

sorry to ramble... just really wanted to respond to that insightful post!

 

[MS]

You might try suggesting to the gym management (if they're at all receptive to suggestions from staff) that they implement a system that is common in the 'better' gyms here, especially at peak times. This is to have two intructors in a class. The instructors take turns on the stage. The instructor who's not on stage wanders around the class correcting form, and also gets a little breather/rest. The form correction is good for the class participants, and the rest allows both instructors to work at a greater intensity when they're on the stage. Also results in less chance of injury to members AND staff.

 

[SteelWeaver]

I agree that training is mental in large part. I do admit that I am careful how far I push tho...I train alone for 1, and 2 I do have some fear of injury on occasion....
Which raises the question... on that fine line between being TOO cautious & not pushing hard enough Versus pushing so hard you "annihlate the muscle", I think I'm cautious, but not overly so.

Not to freak you out or anything, and kind of off-topic at this point, but I read about a guy in one of the mags recently who was pushing, oh, 1200 pounds on the leg sled, figured he'd get to 1500 for 12 reps or so that day, when suddenly ... one of his quad muscles just ... PEELED off the bone, and the whole sled came crashing down on both legs ... smashed them in to little pieces.

He was still in a wheelchair when he competed at Muscle Beach the following year (maybe 18 months later, I think).

I guess you if you're pushing your limits, you never really know where the ultimate limit is?

Thanks W6, and yes, regardless, that's not only not bad, it's freaking fantastic!

One other Q - hold the sled up there for 20 secs, or put it down? Right now I hold it up there for 10 ...

 

[wilson6]

Rest the sled. Let the blood back in the quads to regenerate PCr and clear lactate.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks - explains why I couldn't get more than 30