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Need advice on Newbie cycle

FitMale

New member
Tomorrow is week 3 of my first cycle and would appreciate constructive comments.

I'm 50, 5'11", 185#, 16%bf, working out for 2 years, serious the past 12 months and since starting the cycle workout every other day and do cardio 50 min/5x/wk.

I'm taking: D-Bol 25mg tab 2x/day; Decanandrolen 200 inject 1x/wk; Sustanon 250 inject 1x/wk.

Research & friendly advice yields the following options which has left me somewhat confused.
a) stay with this cycle
b) drop either decanandrolen or sustanon...it's overkill
c) stay with the cycle but increase both injectibles by 50% during weeks 4-8
 
With the exception of the d-bol that is a very mild cycle...
I would lower the d-bol, personally I would not have recommended it at all for a first cycle. If I have read your post right you are using 50mg pd?? That is a fairly heavy dose especially for a first cycle. D-bol is argueably a harsh 17aa AS, which is just not necessary for a first cycle.
I would advise slightly uping the Deca / Test.
Go with one inject of Sustanon every 5th day, 375mg average per week. Up the Deca to 300mg pw. This should yield good solid results, while still limiting (at these dosages) bloat and other sides.
Do you have anti-e's on hand? What will your post cycle look like???
Also, what are you goals?? If in fact it is to gain mass, I would suggest lowering the amount of cardio you are doing...
 
Thanks 1Banshee,

yes, you read my post right 25mg in AM and 25mg in PM.

I'll take your recommendation regarding the dosage increase. If I read your post right why do you propose Sustanon every 5th day but not the Deca?

Although I have access to clomid, I'm not certain whether I need to post cycle.

As I understand it, since I'm "clinically hypogonadal" and currently on testosterone replacement all I need to do is continue using the Androgel when my cycle ends. What would you suggest?

My goals are 1) Symmetry is critical, I want more than just having big arms and pecs. 2) find a manner to minimize the loss of LBM after the cycle ends; 3) to maintain 200# @ 8% bf (now 185# @ 16% bf).

You suggest lowering the cardio....to what extent? Won't being mainly endomorphic create a problem for me as my body naturally wants to store fat?
 
FitMale said:
Thanks 1Banshee,

yes, you read my post right 25mg in AM and 25mg in PM.

I'll take your recommendation regarding the dosage increase. If I read your post right why do you propose Sustanon every 5th day but not the Deca?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.. Inject the Deca every fifth day also. You will then be averaging 300mg's pw (over a 30day period). So Sustanon at 250 and Deca at 200 every 5th day.

Although I have access to clomid, I'm not certain whether I need to post cycle.

Interesting point. You are on permanent androgen replacement. What was the reason for the replacement? Was it simply low test levels or was it a total or near total system shutdown??

As I understand it, since I'm "clinically hypogonadal" and currently on testosterone replacement all I need to do is continue using the Androgel when my cycle ends. What would you suggest?

Depending on the answer to the above you will of course need to go back on your replacement. Additionally Clomid may still be a good addition.

My goals are 1) Symmetry is critical, I want more than just having big arms and pecs. 2) find a manner to minimize the loss of LBM after the cycle ends; 3) to maintain 200# @ 8% bf (now 185# @ 16% bf).

You suggest lowering the cardio....to what extent? Won't being mainly endomorphic create a problem for me as my body naturally wants to store fat?

What does your diet look like?? Calories, fat, protien, carbs.??
 
Reason for testosterone replacement is indeed for very low testosterone levels which realized itself in 1) frequent depressive episodes and 2) very low sex drive. Dr. has me on Androgel w/one packet daily.

I'll start clomid at the end of the cycle then.

Diet is good @ 3341 cal with 45% protein, 40% carb and 15% fat plus 96 oz H20 daily.

You also suggested lowering cardio..to what extent? Won't my being mainly endomorphic create a problem for me if I cut down on cardio since my body wants to store fat by nature?
 
If you are not at total shutdown, then I beleive there will be value in the Clomid therapy...
Diet looks really good!!! The ratios are right on, IMO!!! Especially given your body type...
Normally while trying to bulk I would not recommend more than 4 cardio sessions a week. Usually no longer than 30 - 40 minutes in duration. More than that tends to begin to cut into mass building. I personally do cardio 3 times per week, at 20minutes (interval type cardio) a session. You will probably have to find out what works best for you by trial and error. Keep a close log, and watch your progress. Try bringing down the cardio sessions, and see what the results are?? Do you begin to gain weight more rapidly if so what type?? Even having an endomorphic body type, given your diet, I would expect the cardio level you are currently doing is to high not to have an impact on LMB gains...
Are you keeping the protien high and carbs to a minimum after 6pm??
 
1Banshee,

OK, so Clomid it is....I understand that I'll need to start Clomid 2 weeks before I complete the cycle and then for additional 2 weeks.

I'll start experimenting with the Cardio and dropping it by 10 minutes....For me, it hasn't been about the length of time I do cardio, it's the length of time I'm within my Heart Rate zone of 139 to 180 BPM with a 50 minute average of 154 BPM. I wear a Polar Watch and a transmitter to monitor that.

Protein has been reasonably High after 6pm with meal #5 primarly being 2 cups fat free cottage cheese and 2 tbsp jam for flavor enhancement.

BTW, it appears my cycle finally kicked in! All exercises have increased between 10-20 lbs over last week! YEAH!
 
Use the clomid starting approximately 3 weeks after your last injection. Both Sustanon and Deca are long acting AS. Use the Clomid like this:
Day 1 - 300mg's
Day 2 - 10 - 100mg's
Day 11 - 20 - 50mg's

Isn't it great when it "kicks in"???? I am in my late 30's and when that stuff really begins to kick, I feel like a teenager again!!! Tons of energy, strength, sex drive, everything goes through the ceiling!!!!
Good Luck Bro!!!!!!!! This is where it really gets good!!!!
Make sure to watch the carbs after 6pm!!!
 
1Banshee,

Will follow the Clomid suggestions you presented.

You know, I can't wait to see the difference in 10 weeks; I'm also curious to see how my mood is affected and what changes, if any, I will observe. Roid Rage....I think not....way too many years of Therapy ;0)

Question: Since protein is so critical why not increase it more and reduce the carbs even further...something like 60% protein 25% carbs 15% fat? It's gotta make a difference!


I found the following documentation regarding protein only diet then cut and pasted the relevant portion:

<http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/carbohydrates/scientific_evidence_low_grains.htm>

Low Grain and Carbohydrate Diets Treat Hypoglycemia, Heart Disease, Diabetes
Cancer and Nearly All Chronic Illness.

by Joseph Brasco, MD

[snip]

In the mid twenties to late thirties, the famed anthropologist V. Stefansson
chronicled the life and culture of the Eskimo in a series of books and
journal articles. Of the many observations made by Stefansson, he was most
intrigued with their diet and health. In spite of a nearly 100% animal based
diet, the Eskimo people enjoyed an excellent state of well being and a
freedom from many western diseases.

This observation was greeted with a high degree of skepticism in a scientific
community that was becoming increasingly hostile toward the role of protein
and fat in the American diet. To silence his critics, Steffansson devised a
study whereby he would consume an all meat diet for one year.

Under observation at Bellvue Hospital in New York City, Stefansson and a
colleague did in fact consume for one year an all meat diet. At years end, to
the surprise of the scientific community, both investigators were in
excellent health. They demonstrated weight loss with reduction in body fat,
normal kidney and liver function, and improvement in blood lipids (within the
limits of diagnostic testing of the time).

The "Bellvue ward study" created quite a stir in the scientific community and
was detailed in numerous articles appearing both in popular and professional
literature. Although long term commentary cannot be made, this remarkable
study certainly speaks to the short term safety of a ketogenic diet. Ample
scientific, epidemologic and anthropological data exists to support the
general safety of a ketogenic diet. However, this data does not exonerate all
the modern inceptions of this diet.

Traditional cultures who consumed a largely animal based diet, derived a
great deal of their vitamins and nutrients by consuming the organs, eyes,
glands and gonads of their prey. Modern ketotic diets are primarily based on
common American foods, i.e. meats, eggs and cheeses. They do not qualify the
source of animal products (i.e. salmon versus bacon), and are usually
overloaded with salt. In general, these diets are only concerned about
limiting carbohydrate intake without overall regard to food quality.
 
The problem I think you run into further reducing carbs is it will begin to effect your energy levels. Especially during peroids of intense training as it appears you are doing now. You run the risk of not fully maintaining your glycogen stores. If this begins to occur, in all likelyhood you will notice the drop in energy, mood and increasing the possibility of overtraining. IMO, it is very important during a mass building AS cycle to keep carbs up... During a cutting cycle, then yes lower them.
Interesting read you attached by the way. I have run into a study / roundtable somewhere recently on this subject. I need to find it. If I do I will send you the conclusions the article made regarding carbs on a "mass" cycle....
 
1Banshee,

Ah yes, glycogen stores....after all that is what fuels the muscle...duh, what was I thinking!

and yes, I agree completely that I don't want to lose energy levels when I'm working this hard to build mass.

I'll look forward to reading that reference whenever you locate it again.

Regards,
FitMale
 
Got another couple points regarding diet which I hope you might shed some light on for me:

When I work up my calories needed for the day...I've been calculating using LBM of the weight I want to get to....(200# @ 7% bf = 186 LBM) then adding to that calories expended by working out and aerobics. Am I reading the nutrition books right?

Likewise on days I'm not working out, my calorie requirments should be less than on workout days; otherwise I'd be gaining and storing fat wouldn't I?
 
FitMale said:
Got another couple points regarding diet which I hope you might shed some light on for me:

When I work up my calories needed for the day...I've been calculating using LBM of the weight I want to get to....(200# @ 7% bf = 186 LBM) then adding to that calories expended by working out and aerobics. Am I reading the nutrition books right?

Likewise on days I'm not working out, my calorie requirments should be less than on workout days; otherwise I'd be gaining and storing fat wouldn't I?

I do not believe so... You will want to take whatever you maintenance numbers are now (current weight) and add to those. Does that make sense?? In reality though it will probably make little difference, while on a cycle of AS your nutritional needs will be higher than a non-assisted lifter. I have not seen any nutrition book that takes into account a weight lifter who is using AS at various levels. They are decent baselines, thats about it. I used them when I first started and then kept a record and adjusted things until I found what I felt was the best amounts and ratios for me....
On a mass cycle I continue to keep calories up even on non-workout days. Will it really make a difference if you drop your calories by a couple of hundred on non-workout days? Maybe, I think it could impact your recovery / growth. Additionally as you begin to add muscle your body is naturally going to require more calories, etc, on a continual basis.
 
1Banshee,

It's been about 30 days since my last post and wanted to add a brief follow-up to my request for assistance.

About a week after the post, I realized my arrangements with a previous trainer weren't working for me and I wasn't able to push myself as hard as I felt I needed to gain the benefit of my first cycle......so I checked around and hired the best damn trainer in Palm Springs. IMHO, it's the best thing I could have done....the dude busts my ass every workout...and I always come crawling back for more.

Additionally, I forced myself to look deeply into my concepts of pain and pleasure to get a handle of working through the pain of a hard workout. Pleasure is now "finishing a grueling workout"

Weights Workout is:
Monday: Shoulders, Triceps
Tuesday: Quads, Calves, Forearms
Thursday: Chest, Biceps
Friday: Back, Hamstrings

Non-Weights Workout is:
Sunday: Aerobics, Abs
Monday: Aerobics, Abs
Wednesday: Aerobics, Abs
Thursday: Aerobics
Friday: Aerobics, Abs

I'm amazed at the changes and seeing the first small ones, got me energized and dedicated to working harder and more strictly monitoring my diet and sleep.

First week in May, I realized 35 years ago I had a dream of becoming a competitive bodybuilder and that dream got lost deeply in the shuffle. Now that it's resurrected, I had to acknowledge that the original goal isn't realistic; however, I modified the dream and the goal is now to compete at an Amateur Masters level. Granted, it's a way down the road, but I'm loving the process of getting there, one workout at a time.

Through my chiropractor I discovered a physical challenge: seems my left and right triceps may be attached at different locations giving the appearance of riding lower on my left arm, so I'm in to process of searching for solutions. First charge is to use deep, intensive massage (Rolfing) to see if the upper triceps isn't just banded too tight with fascia. Releasing the banding may resolve it....have to wait and see on that one.

Finally, I've found gym members treating me differently...the really hard working "elite" members are barely beginning to acknowledge my presence...hey this is cool!
 
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