My Thoughts on the Pros

[DrJMW]

Pros do not go off anabolics; they can't. Their natural Testo levels could never support the amount of muscle they carry. So, post-cycle recovery discussions for Pros are irrelevant. The rest of us go off for various reasons--so HCG/Nolvadex/Clomid stacks remain the endocrinologist's choice for recovery. I agree with Bill Llewellyn and drop the Clomid and dose the way I have posted in various articles here.

Once your natural Testo levels drop below a certain point, you need supplementation. Take the 42 year old guy with low, normal or low Testo levels. Suppose he had naturally high-normal to high levels in his teens and twenties. Now, his testes are failing; he is becoming LH resistant--this is aging..the HPTA axis is failing to function at a level he was at in his teens and twenties. Let's put him on Androgel (low dose, daily Testosterone). He feels good and his bloods show a normal level of Testosterone. Is he going to grow? Probably not, but he will feel "better." Will the Androgel affect his HPTA? Yes, but who cares! It is already failing because of aging. Suppose we put him on Oxandrin 20mg daily (he has the money). Will he grow? Probably not, but he will feel better. Will Oxandrin affect his HPTA? Yes, but so what! Someone mentioned that Androgel doesn't affect the HPTA--he would have to post studies to convince me. The HPTA negative feedback loop is very sensitive to testosterone increases, even if they are low and everybody's genetics are different.

Now, let's take this same person and put him on 500mg injectible Testosterone with Aromasin (the AAS stack is arbitrary--just picking something simple and safe). He will feel pretty good; his blood tests will be high-normal to high again. Will he grow? Most definitely--assuming proper diet and exercise. Will this cycle affect his HPTA? Yes, but who cares!! If he can tolerate this dosage and his bloods look good (add in PSA testing), great. We can even add in Proscar if needed. Can this person ever go off and function properly? No!! He can reduce his AAS intake periodically. He can increase it too. He can gain or lose size at will, but he can never go off.

I think the biggest problems I see with chronic AAS usage is lousy lipid profiles. That is why I keep suggesting pre-cycle testing to see if you have a pre-existing cholesterol problem. If you do, correct it before beginning AAS. The second problem is the overuse of orals, which leads to lousy liver and kidney values. As long as the AAS doses are small or cycles stay around eight weeks, these problems are not as bad and may not even exist. The Pros are different--this is their living and they have to take risks to win.

 

[naturally anabolic]

Well said.

karma for ya doc.

 

[DrJMW]

Bump

 

[Dooley]

interesting read... bump

 

[greg21]

very nice...

 

[Xtreme2001]

Good read.

 

[macho21]

Good read

 

[nc4158]

Bump for the Doc!!

 

[liftsiron]

This is one of the truest and most intelligent posts that I have seen in awhile. I agree 100%, very well written.

 

[manny78]

Good stuff.

 

[SOLID]

I already posted studies that Androgel WILL suppress the HTPA, it is used for hormone replacement therapy. FONZ/ Nelson M...suggested you should use it for post cycle therapy. good post btw.

 

[Festo]

Very good read! But what about someone young in is twenties with no problem with cholesterol, body pressure and liver value going on for the rest of his life? With only test at 500 to 1000mg./week and maybe some GH later? Will he be able to have kids?

Thanks a lot Doc!

 

[Big Wiggs]

That's all nice and stuff but some off them do come off like, Ray and Levrone and there are some other ones alot of guys stay on all the time there are many that come off. You can hit a up a 8-10 week mass cycle before and then go right into contest prep. MUSCLE MEMORY allows them to show up like they every year.

 

[gwl9dta4]

That's all nice and stuff but some off them do come off like, Ray and Levrone and there are some other ones alot of guys stay on all the time there are many that come off. You can hit a up a 8-10 week mass cycle before and then go right into contest prep. MUSCLE MEMORY allows them to show up like they every year.

Very true, this was propably the main reason why a few years ago when after a 8 month layoff i did a cycle of 500mg weekly of sust and gained over 30lbs in about 7 weeks. My BF% dropped too, so was propably more then 30lbs.

 

[akathegame]

Big wigg and gwl,


I understand what you guys are saying about muscle memory and think it goes further to overall metabolism and body composition. Quad had said that he stays at 5-6% bodyfat with out a clean diet due he feels, and I agree, to years of maintain a similar composition. This noted though, the pros you mentioned, along with others may come off, but only because there contest and appearance schedule permits it. No pro can put on size without being on and no pro can adequately rip donw while mainaining muscle mass without the necessary juice. The fact is they have to basically stay on to achieve their goals and while some technically do come off it is only dictated by their schedual and never by the fact that they CAN come off. As I typed that I realized how poorly I may have expressed the thought bos, but I hope it gets through. I don't mean this as a flame or anything, I totally understand your assertion, but I think its important to quatify the reason for any breaks by the pros. Its a luxery that muscle memory and years of physique building have afforded them and definitely not a testament to any reduced need for gear. Out.

 

[KA-BAR]

great info

 

[DrJMW]

Very good read! But what about someone young in is twenties with no problem with cholesterol, body pressure and liver value going on for the rest of his life? With only test at 500 to 1000mg./week and maybe some GH later? Will he be able to have kids?

The longer the cycle, the higher the dosages, the greater chance of permanent shutdown of the testes. This definitely decreases the possibility of decent sperm count/quality. Doesn't necessarily eliminate the possibility of child-bearing, just decreases the odds. Also decreases the odds of an HCG/Nolvadex/Clomid cycle working to boost testes function when you need it.

My point again. If in your twenties, why stay on all the time UNLESS you are competing for big $$$$$$? Do short cycles, coupled with recovery cycles--you can do these over and over again--safely and effectively.

 

[ripped20]

Great post

I am in my mid 20's and have done about 6 cycles none lasting more than 12 wks most 8 - 10 wks. I was getting ready to start my 5th cycle when we decided to try to have a kid so I didn't start my cycle. My wife came off the pill and 45 days later she was pregnant! So I guess my little swimmers are just fine. I did my cycle once we knew everything looked good. Two weeks post cycle I had a lipid profile done and my cholestrol was 87! they called me back in and did it again and it came back 86! so all is well. I agree with MJW keep cycles short and give yourself time to recover and all is well. At least it has worked that way for me.

Good luck bros.

-Ripped25

 

[akathegame]

Dr,

You couldn't be more right Doc. The current bb culture has gotten out of hand. The thing is the more is better motto has taken an ugly turn where its not even being applied for further gains. Atleast in the past, guy were pushing the envelope and increasin their dosages into new territory and for longer periods b/c they were getting better results. Today alot of these donkeys are going huge just to go huge, NOT TO GET HUGE. Shouldn't cycle volumes and durations be an indicator of mass and overall development. Attitude and so-called balls shouldn't dictate a guy's cycle. Flat out a cycle should utilize the lowest dosage of gear for the shortest duration of time to obtain the desired goal. If your goal is to gain a solid 15lbs, don't brag to me about HOW MUCH GEAR you took to get there. Brag to me about how little you took and still got the 15. Save the mega dosages for when you absolutely need them. I could go on about this all night. There are alot of total jackasses trying to massage their fragile egos by telling themselves the real badasses are the biggest or strongest, but the guy who will due the heaviest cycle. Any fool can pump himself full of oil and pills, BUT WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW FOR IT?????? OUT!

 

[liftsiron]

akathegame, you are correct, its far better to use the least amount of gear, combined with proper nutrition, rest and training to make quality, LASTING gains.

 

[BLOODTIDE]

nice

 

[GeeQ]

What should someone do in the event of high cholestorol?

Are there options to reduce its elevation during a cycle, a sort of maintanance drug perhaps?

Good stuff, though a little scary!
GeeQ

 

[Ulter]

I usually agree with you Doc and on most of what you said I do agree. But about that Bill Llewellyn method and dropping the clomid...
I don't agree and as you know neither does Bill Roberts. The reason I don't agree is that it works, very well. I have spoken to literally hundreds of guys who use the clomid method in the past few years and they are just fine with it. HCG/nolva has it's place in the end of the cycle and 20 years ago those of us who actually used a recovery method, used it. But that was long before anyone knew to use clomid. I think clomid works better and I think Bill L is stuck in the 80's.