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My old CKD article I wrote for George24....
- Thread starter Kakdiesel
- Start date
NY Muscle
Well-known member
MASSIVEmorris said:
You make a good point…I used to do a CKD all the time until the TKD was finally perfected then I just did a TKD and maybe every 15 days or so Id do a 12 hour MODERATE carb up…I like my protein bars and would have one b4 my workout and it kept me sane on the diet and I would have 35-50gms of dextrose and whey post workout with ALA and other glucose disposal agents….but the fat loss is a little slower than CKD so maybe that us one reason why people do it or maybe because you need a lot of trial and error with a TKD before you can do it right, ie; you need to find what is better for you, pre and/or post w/o carbs and also how much carbs, what type of carbs, etc etc.
Personally I was just answering questions about a CKD here…though I find the TKD better as far as muscle retention is concerned…but will take a few weeks longer to get the fat loss that you would get on a CKD.
Last but not least…a TKD with insulin CANT BE BEAT…that is when I really had fun…but it takes a lot of trial and error.
MASSIVEmorris
New member
NY Muscle: How is this so? Not only is more time spent in ketosis on a TKD; one does not have to worry about fat spilling over during the weekly carb-up on a CKD.
barnidge said:
i had around 70-80 grams of carbs w/protien yesterday, im gonna skip refeed's and blast through theses last 3.5 weeks before i hit my cycle and switch to a 50/30/20 diet or TKD.(undecided)
barnidge-
if you stick with it bro youll see results your looking for. just be consistent and keep your goals in the back of your mind when you do refeeds and carb up's. remeber YOU control what goes in and out you mouth not the other way around.
i have a few of my co-workers on this plan as well, theres no doubt in my mind that YOU can do it. just do it!
theres up's and down's with everything in life but you have to realize them and blast through em or work them out, . i had NOBODY to support me when i started this journey besides KAKDIESEL and a few others, i quickly learned what it took/takes for me to reach my goals w/out the support or backing of people in my life thus the end result? me learning new concepts and applying them to myself to reach my goals and find out what stops me from moving forward and such, its all a test and when you finally have 'YOUR GAME" down pat then youll be able to teach what you learned to others that might be less fortunate or educated about the subject at hand. then youll truelly realize that you have learned a new skill and made it work. that alone is priceless....
Cyclical Ketogenic Diets Part 1
Copyright Lyle McDonald 1996
Abstract
After roughly a 20 year absence from the public eye, the ketogenic diet
has made a reappearance in both the fields of weight loss as well as sports
nutrition. Books like "Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution", "Protein Power" by
the Eades', and to a lesser degree "The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet" by the
Hellers have brought low carb dieting back into the weight loss arena.
Additionally, in the field of sports nutrition, two slightly different
approaches have entered the fray in the form of "The Anabolic Diet" created
by Dr. Mauro DiPasquale and "Bodyopus" created by Dan Duchaine. Rather
than suggesting a low carbohydrate approach indefinitely, these two diets
advocate a cyclical ketogenic approach combining 5 days of low carbohydrate
intake with a 2 day carb-up akin to what endurance athletes used to do
prior to competition.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to draw any absolute conclusions about this
approach from article written about it as the groups involved in the debate
invariably have some vested financial interest in either promoting or
decrying the approach. In this article, I simply want to examine some of
the theoretical bases of the cyclical ketogenic diet and if it has any
merit. Additionally, possible health concerns will be discussed.
Some Basic physiology
What are ketones?
Ketone or ketone bodies (KB) are a byproduct of fat metabolism. KB's are
generated in the liver due to the actions of glucagon (15). There are two
KB's which circulate freely in the bloodstream. They are acetoacetate and
beta-hydroxybutyrate. Most aerobic tissues, including the brain, skeletal
muscle, and the heart can oxidize KB's for fuel (8). Under normal blood
sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and
heart. Under these conditions the rate of ketone body utilization by
tissue depends in part on their concentration. Under normal conditions, KB
metabolism is minimal, perhaps 1-2% of total energy expenditure. In
diabetic ketotic patients, this can increase to 5% (8).
Glucagon, insulin and ketogenesis:
The formation of KB's and utilization of fuel is ultimately controlled by
the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Insulin is a hormone
released from the pancreas in response to eating carbohydrates. Glucagon
is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is only present when insulin levels
fall to quite low levels. In the liver, high glucagon levels direct FFA
away from TG synthesis and towards beta-oxidation. Glucagon also activates
adipose tissue lipase which activates lipolysis. Glucagon's ketogenic and
lipolytic effects are inactivated by even small amounts of insulin. To
achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased
ketogenesis/lipolysis, blood glucose levels must drop to around 50-60 mg/dl
and insulin must drop almost to zero. This drop in insulin can occur with
complete fasting, exercise, or by simply restricting carbohydrate intake to
below 30 grams per day. Within about 3 days of carbohydrate restriction,
blood glucose will fall below 60 mg/dl, insulin levels will drop to zero
and glucagon levels will increase causing an increase in KB formation.
With exercise training, ketogenesis should occur more quickly and ketosis
established. (2)
How to induce ketosis?
Ketosis (defined as the buildup of the KB's in the bloodstream) will occur
under several conditions including: fasting, after prolonged exercise, and
when a high fat diet is consumed. (7,8,15).
Once ketosis is established (i.e. when ketone concentration in the blood
is higher than glucose concentration), ketones will become the preferred
fuel by all three tissues providing up to 75% of the fuel utilized (7).
The brain, which normally utilizes glucose exclusively for fuel will, after
a period of 2 to 3 weeks, switch almost exclusively to using KB's for fuel
(1, 6, 15). The time delay for the brain to make this metabolic shift has
some major implications which need to be discussed. As described further
below, one study (22) found a decrement in mental flexibility during the
first week of adopting aketogenic diet. Therefore, for individuals who's
jobs or livelihood requires great mental acuity, the ketogenic diet
approach (cyclical or otherwise) may not be an ideal one.
The ketogenic ratio
Food can be rated as either ketogenic or anti-ketogenic dependent on their
conversion to glucose in the body. Dietary fats are the most ketogenic
item, converting to glucose with only 10% efficiency. Proteins are in the
middle, converting to glucose with about 58% efficiency (this is due to the
fact that some dietary amino acids are ketogenic in nature, meaning that
they convert to ketones, and others are glucogenic, meaning that they
convert to glucose) (2). Dietary carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with
100% efficiency making them completely anti-ketogenic in nature. To
rapidly establish ketosis, a minimum ratio of 1.5 grams of fat for each
gram of protein and/or carbohydrate is recommended. This would provide a
ketogenic ratio of 1.5:1. While higher ketogenic ratios are used
clinically, this author can see no need to use a higher ratio of fat to
protein and carbs for a healthy athlete. (5)
What exactly does ketosis mean?
Ketosis simply refers to a metabolic state where the concentration of KB's
in the blood builds to higher than normal levels. As will be discussed
below in further detail, this should not be equated with the ketoacidosis
which occurs in diabetics.
The presence of ketosis through whatever means implies two things (15):
1. that lipid energy metabolism has been activated
2. that the entire pathway of lipid degradation is intact.
Normally, there is fairly tight control on the production of KB's. Except
in pathological conditions such as diabetes, excess ketones will simply be
excreted in the urine (1). This allows an individual to check for the
presence and urinary concentration of ketones by utilizing Ketostix.
Metabolic effects of ketogenic diets
Establishment of ketosis, even in the short term, has the effect of
increasing the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. After adaptation to
ketosis, there is a decrease in fasting RQ (an indicator of relative fuel
metabolism with lower values indication greater reliance on fat metabolism
versus carbohydrate metabolism) (7). Also, there is a decrease in glucose
oxidation during ketogenic diets as KB's are providing much of the body's
energy needs (18). Additionally, adaptation to a ketogenic diet increases
fat oxidation during exercise even in trained individuals (14, 17).
One point of contention regarding ketogenic diets is the supposed protein
sparing effect when compared to a eucaloric diet with a high carbohydrate
intake. Due to methodological differences, some studies have found a
decrease in protein utilization while others have found an increase (8).
However, available data seems to support the idea that ketosis spares
protein from being used for energy. Since there is essentially an
unlimited supply of fat which can be converted to ketones, and since
ketones can be used by all oxidative tissues, there should be little need
to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis. There is
an obligatory protein requirement which must be met of about 30 grams per
day. And, to be safe, an intake of 60-75 grams of protein is recommended
(7).
Other effects of low carbohydrate diets
Additionally, a low carbohydrate intake will allow for overall greater
lipolysis and free glycerol release when compared to either high
carbohydrate or normal diets (7, 12). This is mediated in part by the lack
of insulin, which has a lipolysis blocking action even at low
concentrations as well as increases in other lipolytic hormones such as
growth hormone, glucagon, the catecholamines, and glucocorticoids. (7)
Additionally, growth hormone levels increase on low carb diets which will
further help to prevent the inevitable protein losses which occur when
calories are restricted (2, 7).
Hopefully the above discussion adequately describes what occurs when
ketosis is established through the combination of carbohydrate restriction,
a sufficient ratio of fat to protein plus carbohydrate intake, and exercise
training. This suggests that the lowering of insulin, and the resultant
hormonal mileu created may optimize the oxidation of fat when fat loss is
the goal. However, as many individuals find completely adequate success
with a less stringent diet, this type of extreme approach is likely not
warranted for everyone. Additionally, a similar hormonal mileu (i.e.
lowering of insulin, etc.) can occur under normal dietary conditions
through various means. A replacement of higher glycemic index
carbohydrates with lower GI carbs will lower basal insulin levels as will a
high fiber intake. Cardiovascular exercise done first thing in the morning
before any calories are consumed may create a similar hormonal picture due
to the lowering of blood glucose after an 8 hour fast. Additionally, the
performance of cardiovascular exercise following high intensity resistance
training should also allow for greater fat utilization due to lowered blood
glucose and insulin levels.
However, we have not yet discussed the most unique feature of the
cyclical ketogenic which is the high carbohydrate phase on the weekends.
The validation of the weekend carb-up is the point upon which the cyclical
ketogenic diet ultimately hinges. Unfortunately, direct data on healthy
athletes is sorely lacking and only inference can be drawn from other data.
The problem with all fat loss diets is the inevitable loss of lean body
mass (i.e. muscle) which will occur. This leads to a loss of muscle tissue
and a slowing of metabolism making weight regain highly likely. While
ketogenic diets may limit muscle protein loss more so than high
carbohydrate diets, the loss of some muscle will occur. The weekend
carb-up, in addition to refilling muscle glycogen stores for the next
week's training, may also have the potential to stimulate anabolism and
rebuild some if not all of the lost muscle tissue. What is not understood
is why the period of high carbohydrate intake does not undo the metabolic
adaptations to the ketosis is established during the week. It seems
possible that, for the same reason it takes several weeks to days for the
body to adapt to a ketogenic diet, a similar amount of time may be required
to de-adapt or, rather, readapt to normal carbohydrate metabolism. This
area requires more direct study before any conclusions can or should be
drawn.
The carb-up
With the consumption of a normal carbohydrate adequate diet, muscle
carbohydrate stores should remain filled. Under normal circumstances, the
muscles contain approximately 350 grams. With glycogen depletion caused by
exhaustive exercise followed by a high carbohydrate intake, these levels of
muscle carbohydrate can be nearly doubled (19).
Under normal dietary conditions, exercise has been shown to increase
insulin sensitivity which increases the muscle's ability to accept insulin
at the receptor level (12) but this increase in insulin sensitivity only
occurs in the muscles trained. The increase seems related to glycogen
depletion in the worked muscles. Additionally, following a low
carbohydrate diet, but not after a high carbohydrate diet, glycogen
synthase activity (the enzyme which stores dietary carbohydrate in the
muscle) is increased further (4). So, all of the pieces are in place. By
combining a high fat diet, exhaustive exercise training (which should be
performed on Friday prior to beginning the carbohydrate loading period) and
a high carbohydrate intake, glycogen supercompensation can occur.
However, while complete super compensation may take three to four days, the
majority of glycogen storage will occur in the first 24 hours. (19). The
muscles are capable of storing from 9 grams of carbohydrate per kg of lean
body mass all the way up to 16 grams of carbs per kg lean body mass. The
above is nothing that wasn't already known. Endurance athletes looking to
improve performance used to combine 3 days of exhaustive exercise with a
carbohydrate restricted diet identical to what was described above to
accomplish glycogen super compensation to provide greater energy stores for
their events. What about the rebuilding of muscle that was alluded to
above?
For every gram of carbohydrate stored in the muscle, assuming adequate
water intake, 4 grams of water will be stored additionally. With a normal
mixed diet, muscle carbohydrate stores are roughly 350 grams for a person
with 65kg of lean body mass (19). At 4 grams of water per gram of
carbohydrate, this is 1400 grams of water stored in the muscles. With
super compensation to 16 grams per kg lean body mass, 1040 grams of
carbohydrate can potentially be stored which would yield 4160 grams of
water, almost a 3 fold increase.
Recent research supports the idea that muscle protein anabolism may be
regulated by cellular hydration state at least in certain
pathophysiological states like burn trauma. According to this hypothesis,
cellular dehydration sends a proteolytic (protein breakdown) signal to the
cell while cellular hydration (and, presumably super hydration as would
occur with glycogen super compensation) would send a powerful anabolic
signal to the cell (9,10). Along with this, after 3 days on a high fat
diet, the insulin response to a standard glucose load is increased compared
to a high carbohydrate diet (20). Hyperinsulinemia is another stimulus for
anabolism. (3) So, it seems plausible (although direct research is awaited
to support or refute this) that glycogen super compensation, along with the
powerful anabolic signal sent by the almost three fold increase cellular
hydration could rebuild any muscle lost while following a low carbohydrate,
ketogenic diet. What is not understood at this time is why endurance
athletes, performing an identical form of glycogen super compensation do
not see increases in muscle mass. This suggests that the simple act of
carbohydrate restriction and protein breakdown followed by carbohydrate
loading may not independently promote anabolic processes.
What about side effects?
Probably the largest side effect reported with ketogenic diets is fatigue,
especially during the initial adaptation to ketone metabolism, especially
in the brain. A recent study found that, during the first week of a
ketogenic diet, performance on tests indicative of mental flexibility were
impaired. These affects abated as the diet was continued (21).
One question regarding ketogenic diets is the potential effects on blood
lipid profile. Anecdotally, many individuals report an improvement in
blood lipid profile but this author could only find one reference to
cholesterol levels. During 4 weeks of adaptation to a ketogenic diet,
cholesterol levels did increase from 139 to 200. What effects on blood
lipid longer periods of ketosis would have had are currently unknown. (18)
This underscores the absolute need for anyone desiring to try this approach
to monitor blood lipid levels with frequent blood testing.
Unfortunately, no direct research has been done in the last 15 or so years
looking at untoward side effects of the ketogenic diets. While it is
attractive to draw inference from studies of epileptic children, for whom
ketosis appears to control a majority of intractable seizures and who are
kept in deep ketosis for periods of a year or more (5,13), this sub
population may or may not be indicative of the effects of such a diet in
healthy individuals. Additionally, the fact that the diet is abandoned
after that period of time suggests that long term ketosis may have unwanted
effects. Or that long term adaptation to the ketogenic diet is sufficient
to control the seizures without having to maintain the diet.
Additionally, ketogenic diets have shown some promise in the treatment of
certain types of tumors by starving the tumor of glucose while providing
adequate energy substrates in the form of KB's to other tissues (16).
But, as with the subgroup mentioned above, it would be exceedingly
premature to draw inference as to the long term side effects which may
occur with a ketogenic diet from these studies. The longest study on
ketogenic diets found by this researcher in the last 15 years were only 4
weeks in duration. Therefore, it can only be concluded at this time that
long term side effects of ketogenic diets are not currently known.
Considering that many disease states such as coronary artery disease can
take years to manifest themselves, caution must be taken.
As with any radical change in diet or food intake, especially one such as
the ketogenic diet which causes extreme changes in the body's biochemistry,
individuals must take care to monitor their health status. Tracking blood
lipid profile and other indicators of heart disease as well as other bodily
functions will help to indicate if any negative effects are occurring in
the body and frequent diagnostic tests are highly recommended.
Additionally, it is currently unknown whether adaptation to long term
ketosis can be reversed without detrimental effects to normal metabolism.
That is to say, it is conceivable that the metabolic effects caused by such
a major dietary change could cause irreversible changes to normal
metabolism.
Some comment should be made is in regards to nutrient intake. Due to the
restrictive nature of ketogenic diets the potential exists for
micronutrient deficiencies. In the studies on ketogenic diets, the
researchers provided supplementation of a multi-vitamin/mineral tablet to
ensure adequate micronutrient intake. It may be advisable for those why
try such a diet independently to supplement with a multi-vitamin/mineral
providing 100% of the RDA. Additionally, since the consumption of nutrient
dense foods such as vegetables is severely restricted during the week,
these foods should be consumed during the carbohydrate loading phase so
that absolute reliance on supplements is not required.
Another thing that deserves mention is this: the high dietary fat intake
necessitated by the ketogenic diet is such that increased free radical
production could potentially occur. However, this area requires further
direct study before any conclusions can be drawn. As with other potential
health concerns, this further underscores the need for an individual to
closely monitor their health status before and while beginning such a
dietary regime.
The issue of ketoacidosis
A final criticism that arises relative to ketogenic diets is the extreme
danger of uncontrolled ketoacidosis. KB's are acidic in nature. The
uncontrolled buildup of KB's would lower pH levels of the blood causing
death. However, we must differentiate between ketosis as it occurs in
diabetics and ketosis as it occurs in non-diabetics. Recall that ketosis
occurs when insulin levels drop and glucagon levels rise. In diabetics,
this can occur even with high blood sugar levels due to the inability of
the pancreas to secrete insulin. In this situation, glucose production is
augmented but peripheral utilization is reduced. Blood sugar rises to
exceedingly high levels of 300 to 2000 mg/dl (normal blood glucose
concentration is 80-120 mg/dl). But, due to the low insulin to glucagon
ratio, ketogenesis is also stimulated. However, due to the presence of
high blood glucose levels, ketoacid use is prevented. Thus, KB
concentration increases to high levels, eventually lowering blood pH and
causing diabetic ketoacidosis and eventually death. Contrast this to
ketosis as it occurs in conditions such as fasting, or carbohydrate
restricted/high fat diets. In this case, blood sugar levels are subnormal
and KB's do not buildup in the bloodstream as they will be utilized by
peripheral tissues for energy (2).
Additionally, ketoacidosis in diabetics seems related to a defect causing
increased production. Normally, there is a negative feedback loop whereby
excess ketones prevent further production. The slight difference in KB
clearance versus KB appearance corresponds to urinary excretion which is
always below 10% of total turnover. (1)
As further evidence, exercise, which is ketogenic in nature, does not
cause the expected increase in KB concentrations so a negative feedback
loop appears also to be present. (6) This suggests that out of control
ketoacidosis should not occur in normal individuals but, again, there is no
real long term data on this aspect of the diet. Regular checks of urinary
KB concentration (utilizing Ketostix), blood glucose (using a glucometer),
and other indicators of potential problems are highly recommended.
In conclusion, with the available data, the cyclical ketogenic diet may
have merit for certain applications. The carbohydrate restriction coupled
with the induction of ketosis seems to promote a hormonal mileu conducive
to fat loss. The carbohydrate loading process on the weekend is the least
understood (and least researched) aspect of this dietary approach and much
further elucidation of the possible anabolic processes is required before
any definite conclusions can be drawn. The long term health effects in
healthy individuals of this dietary approach are unknown. The only
studies over four weeks in length were conducted on populations which do
not allow extrapolation to healthy individuals. Again, more research is
needed to establish the safety of this dietary approach in the long term.
In the very short term (4 weeks), it seems well tolerated except for the
afforementioned cognitive effects.
Regular blood work (including before commencing the diet to establish a
baseline) as well as regular checks for urinary ketone concentration are
highly recommended. Any metabolic abnormalities occurring in either tests
should be taken as a sign that the dietary approach should be abandoned.
Finally, due to effects on mental clarity during the first few weeks of a
ketogenic diet, this approach is not suitable for individuals involved in a
job or activity requiring high amounts of mental acuity.
References:
1. Balasse, EO and F. Fery. "Ketone body production and disposal: effects
of fasting, diabetes, and exercise. [Review]" Diabetes - Metabolism Reviews
5(3): 247-70, 1989.
2. Berne, Robert M. and Matthew N. Levy. Physiology. St. Louis, MS: C.V.
Mosby company, 1988.
3. Biolo G. et. al. "Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein
synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal
muscle." J Clin Investigation 95(2): 811-9, 1995.
4. Cutler, D.L. "Low-carbohydrate diet alters intracellular glucose
metabolism but not overall glucose disposal in exercise-trained subjects."
Metabolism: Clinical and Experimental 44(10): 1364-70, 1995.
5. John M. Freeman, Kelly, M. and Freeman, Jennifer. The epilepsy diet
treatment: an introduction to the ketogenic diet. Freeman, Kelly, Freeman,
1994.
6. Fery, F. and EO Balasse "Response of ketone body metabolism to exercise
during transition from postabsorptive to fasted state." Am J Physiology
250 (5 Pt 1): E495-501, 1986.
7. Guyton, Arthur C. Textbook of medical physiology. Philadelphia, Pa: W.B.
Saunders Company, 1996.
8. Mark Hargreaves, ed. Exercise Metabolism. Champaign, IL: Human
Kinetics 1995.
9. Haussinger D. "Control of protein turnover by the cellular hydration
state." [Review] Italian J Gastroenterology 25(1): 42-8, 1993.
10. Haussinger D. et. al. "Cellular hydration state: an important
determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease." Lancet 341
(8856): 1330-2, 1993.
11. Henriksson, J. "Influence of exercise on insulin sensitivity. [Review]"
J Cardiovascular Risk. 2(4): 303-9, 1995.
12. Kather, H. et. al. "Influences of variation in total energy intake and
dietary composition on regulation of fat cell lipolysis in ideal-weight
subjects." J Clin Investigation. 80(2): 566-72, 1987.
13. Kinsman SL. et al. "Efficacy of the ketogenic diet for intractable
seizure disorders: review of 58 cases." Epilepsia 33(6): 1132-6, 1992.
14. Lambert EV et. al. "Enhanced endurance in trained cyclists during
moderate intensity exercise following 2 weeks adaptation to a high fat
diet." Eur J App Physiology & Occup Physiology 69(4): 287-93, 1994.
15. Mitchell GA et al. "Medical aspects of ketone body metabolism.
[Review]" Clinical & Investigative Medicine 18(3): 193-216.
16. Nebeling, N.C. et. al. "Effects of a ketogenic diet on tumor metabolism
and nutritional status in pediatric oncology patients: two case reports."
J American College of Nutrition 14(2): 202-8, 1995.
17. Phinney SD. et. al. "The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capacity
with reduced carbohydrate oxidation." Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental
32(8): 769-76, 1983.
18. Phinney SD. et. al. "The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
without caloric restriction: physical and biochemical adaptation."
Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental 32(8): 757-68, 1983.
19. Shephard, R.J. and P-O Astrand. ed. Endurance in Sport. Oxford,
England: Blackwell Scientific Publishing, 1992.
20. Sidery, MB. et. al. "The initial physiological responses to glucose
ingestion in normal subjects are modified by a 3 d high-fat diet." British
J Nutrition 64(3): 705-13, 1990.
21. Wing RR, et. al. "Cognitive effects of ketogenic weight-reducing
diets." Int J Obesity & Related Metabolic Disorders 19(11): 811-6, 1995.
Copyright 1996. Lyle McDonald, CSCS
Copyright Lyle McDonald 1996
Abstract
After roughly a 20 year absence from the public eye, the ketogenic diet
has made a reappearance in both the fields of weight loss as well as sports
nutrition. Books like "Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution", "Protein Power" by
the Eades', and to a lesser degree "The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet" by the
Hellers have brought low carb dieting back into the weight loss arena.
Additionally, in the field of sports nutrition, two slightly different
approaches have entered the fray in the form of "The Anabolic Diet" created
by Dr. Mauro DiPasquale and "Bodyopus" created by Dan Duchaine. Rather
than suggesting a low carbohydrate approach indefinitely, these two diets
advocate a cyclical ketogenic approach combining 5 days of low carbohydrate
intake with a 2 day carb-up akin to what endurance athletes used to do
prior to competition.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to draw any absolute conclusions about this
approach from article written about it as the groups involved in the debate
invariably have some vested financial interest in either promoting or
decrying the approach. In this article, I simply want to examine some of
the theoretical bases of the cyclical ketogenic diet and if it has any
merit. Additionally, possible health concerns will be discussed.
Some Basic physiology
What are ketones?
Ketone or ketone bodies (KB) are a byproduct of fat metabolism. KB's are
generated in the liver due to the actions of glucagon (15). There are two
KB's which circulate freely in the bloodstream. They are acetoacetate and
beta-hydroxybutyrate. Most aerobic tissues, including the brain, skeletal
muscle, and the heart can oxidize KB's for fuel (8). Under normal blood
sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and
heart. Under these conditions the rate of ketone body utilization by
tissue depends in part on their concentration. Under normal conditions, KB
metabolism is minimal, perhaps 1-2% of total energy expenditure. In
diabetic ketotic patients, this can increase to 5% (8).
Glucagon, insulin and ketogenesis:
The formation of KB's and utilization of fuel is ultimately controlled by
the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Insulin is a hormone
released from the pancreas in response to eating carbohydrates. Glucagon
is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is only present when insulin levels
fall to quite low levels. In the liver, high glucagon levels direct FFA
away from TG synthesis and towards beta-oxidation. Glucagon also activates
adipose tissue lipase which activates lipolysis. Glucagon's ketogenic and
lipolytic effects are inactivated by even small amounts of insulin. To
achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased
ketogenesis/lipolysis, blood glucose levels must drop to around 50-60 mg/dl
and insulin must drop almost to zero. This drop in insulin can occur with
complete fasting, exercise, or by simply restricting carbohydrate intake to
below 30 grams per day. Within about 3 days of carbohydrate restriction,
blood glucose will fall below 60 mg/dl, insulin levels will drop to zero
and glucagon levels will increase causing an increase in KB formation.
With exercise training, ketogenesis should occur more quickly and ketosis
established. (2)
How to induce ketosis?
Ketosis (defined as the buildup of the KB's in the bloodstream) will occur
under several conditions including: fasting, after prolonged exercise, and
when a high fat diet is consumed. (7,8,15).
Once ketosis is established (i.e. when ketone concentration in the blood
is higher than glucose concentration), ketones will become the preferred
fuel by all three tissues providing up to 75% of the fuel utilized (7).
The brain, which normally utilizes glucose exclusively for fuel will, after
a period of 2 to 3 weeks, switch almost exclusively to using KB's for fuel
(1, 6, 15). The time delay for the brain to make this metabolic shift has
some major implications which need to be discussed. As described further
below, one study (22) found a decrement in mental flexibility during the
first week of adopting aketogenic diet. Therefore, for individuals who's
jobs or livelihood requires great mental acuity, the ketogenic diet
approach (cyclical or otherwise) may not be an ideal one.
The ketogenic ratio
Food can be rated as either ketogenic or anti-ketogenic dependent on their
conversion to glucose in the body. Dietary fats are the most ketogenic
item, converting to glucose with only 10% efficiency. Proteins are in the
middle, converting to glucose with about 58% efficiency (this is due to the
fact that some dietary amino acids are ketogenic in nature, meaning that
they convert to ketones, and others are glucogenic, meaning that they
convert to glucose) (2). Dietary carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with
100% efficiency making them completely anti-ketogenic in nature. To
rapidly establish ketosis, a minimum ratio of 1.5 grams of fat for each
gram of protein and/or carbohydrate is recommended. This would provide a
ketogenic ratio of 1.5:1. While higher ketogenic ratios are used
clinically, this author can see no need to use a higher ratio of fat to
protein and carbs for a healthy athlete. (5)
What exactly does ketosis mean?
Ketosis simply refers to a metabolic state where the concentration of KB's
in the blood builds to higher than normal levels. As will be discussed
below in further detail, this should not be equated with the ketoacidosis
which occurs in diabetics.
The presence of ketosis through whatever means implies two things (15):
1. that lipid energy metabolism has been activated
2. that the entire pathway of lipid degradation is intact.
Normally, there is fairly tight control on the production of KB's. Except
in pathological conditions such as diabetes, excess ketones will simply be
excreted in the urine (1). This allows an individual to check for the
presence and urinary concentration of ketones by utilizing Ketostix.
Metabolic effects of ketogenic diets
Establishment of ketosis, even in the short term, has the effect of
increasing the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. After adaptation to
ketosis, there is a decrease in fasting RQ (an indicator of relative fuel
metabolism with lower values indication greater reliance on fat metabolism
versus carbohydrate metabolism) (7). Also, there is a decrease in glucose
oxidation during ketogenic diets as KB's are providing much of the body's
energy needs (18). Additionally, adaptation to a ketogenic diet increases
fat oxidation during exercise even in trained individuals (14, 17).
One point of contention regarding ketogenic diets is the supposed protein
sparing effect when compared to a eucaloric diet with a high carbohydrate
intake. Due to methodological differences, some studies have found a
decrease in protein utilization while others have found an increase (8).
However, available data seems to support the idea that ketosis spares
protein from being used for energy. Since there is essentially an
unlimited supply of fat which can be converted to ketones, and since
ketones can be used by all oxidative tissues, there should be little need
to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis. There is
an obligatory protein requirement which must be met of about 30 grams per
day. And, to be safe, an intake of 60-75 grams of protein is recommended
(7).
Other effects of low carbohydrate diets
Additionally, a low carbohydrate intake will allow for overall greater
lipolysis and free glycerol release when compared to either high
carbohydrate or normal diets (7, 12). This is mediated in part by the lack
of insulin, which has a lipolysis blocking action even at low
concentrations as well as increases in other lipolytic hormones such as
growth hormone, glucagon, the catecholamines, and glucocorticoids. (7)
Additionally, growth hormone levels increase on low carb diets which will
further help to prevent the inevitable protein losses which occur when
calories are restricted (2, 7).
Hopefully the above discussion adequately describes what occurs when
ketosis is established through the combination of carbohydrate restriction,
a sufficient ratio of fat to protein plus carbohydrate intake, and exercise
training. This suggests that the lowering of insulin, and the resultant
hormonal mileu created may optimize the oxidation of fat when fat loss is
the goal. However, as many individuals find completely adequate success
with a less stringent diet, this type of extreme approach is likely not
warranted for everyone. Additionally, a similar hormonal mileu (i.e.
lowering of insulin, etc.) can occur under normal dietary conditions
through various means. A replacement of higher glycemic index
carbohydrates with lower GI carbs will lower basal insulin levels as will a
high fiber intake. Cardiovascular exercise done first thing in the morning
before any calories are consumed may create a similar hormonal picture due
to the lowering of blood glucose after an 8 hour fast. Additionally, the
performance of cardiovascular exercise following high intensity resistance
training should also allow for greater fat utilization due to lowered blood
glucose and insulin levels.
However, we have not yet discussed the most unique feature of the
cyclical ketogenic which is the high carbohydrate phase on the weekends.
The validation of the weekend carb-up is the point upon which the cyclical
ketogenic diet ultimately hinges. Unfortunately, direct data on healthy
athletes is sorely lacking and only inference can be drawn from other data.
The problem with all fat loss diets is the inevitable loss of lean body
mass (i.e. muscle) which will occur. This leads to a loss of muscle tissue
and a slowing of metabolism making weight regain highly likely. While
ketogenic diets may limit muscle protein loss more so than high
carbohydrate diets, the loss of some muscle will occur. The weekend
carb-up, in addition to refilling muscle glycogen stores for the next
week's training, may also have the potential to stimulate anabolism and
rebuild some if not all of the lost muscle tissue. What is not understood
is why the period of high carbohydrate intake does not undo the metabolic
adaptations to the ketosis is established during the week. It seems
possible that, for the same reason it takes several weeks to days for the
body to adapt to a ketogenic diet, a similar amount of time may be required
to de-adapt or, rather, readapt to normal carbohydrate metabolism. This
area requires more direct study before any conclusions can or should be
drawn.
The carb-up
With the consumption of a normal carbohydrate adequate diet, muscle
carbohydrate stores should remain filled. Under normal circumstances, the
muscles contain approximately 350 grams. With glycogen depletion caused by
exhaustive exercise followed by a high carbohydrate intake, these levels of
muscle carbohydrate can be nearly doubled (19).
Under normal dietary conditions, exercise has been shown to increase
insulin sensitivity which increases the muscle's ability to accept insulin
at the receptor level (12) but this increase in insulin sensitivity only
occurs in the muscles trained. The increase seems related to glycogen
depletion in the worked muscles. Additionally, following a low
carbohydrate diet, but not after a high carbohydrate diet, glycogen
synthase activity (the enzyme which stores dietary carbohydrate in the
muscle) is increased further (4). So, all of the pieces are in place. By
combining a high fat diet, exhaustive exercise training (which should be
performed on Friday prior to beginning the carbohydrate loading period) and
a high carbohydrate intake, glycogen supercompensation can occur.
However, while complete super compensation may take three to four days, the
majority of glycogen storage will occur in the first 24 hours. (19). The
muscles are capable of storing from 9 grams of carbohydrate per kg of lean
body mass all the way up to 16 grams of carbs per kg lean body mass. The
above is nothing that wasn't already known. Endurance athletes looking to
improve performance used to combine 3 days of exhaustive exercise with a
carbohydrate restricted diet identical to what was described above to
accomplish glycogen super compensation to provide greater energy stores for
their events. What about the rebuilding of muscle that was alluded to
above?
For every gram of carbohydrate stored in the muscle, assuming adequate
water intake, 4 grams of water will be stored additionally. With a normal
mixed diet, muscle carbohydrate stores are roughly 350 grams for a person
with 65kg of lean body mass (19). At 4 grams of water per gram of
carbohydrate, this is 1400 grams of water stored in the muscles. With
super compensation to 16 grams per kg lean body mass, 1040 grams of
carbohydrate can potentially be stored which would yield 4160 grams of
water, almost a 3 fold increase.
Recent research supports the idea that muscle protein anabolism may be
regulated by cellular hydration state at least in certain
pathophysiological states like burn trauma. According to this hypothesis,
cellular dehydration sends a proteolytic (protein breakdown) signal to the
cell while cellular hydration (and, presumably super hydration as would
occur with glycogen super compensation) would send a powerful anabolic
signal to the cell (9,10). Along with this, after 3 days on a high fat
diet, the insulin response to a standard glucose load is increased compared
to a high carbohydrate diet (20). Hyperinsulinemia is another stimulus for
anabolism. (3) So, it seems plausible (although direct research is awaited
to support or refute this) that glycogen super compensation, along with the
powerful anabolic signal sent by the almost three fold increase cellular
hydration could rebuild any muscle lost while following a low carbohydrate,
ketogenic diet. What is not understood at this time is why endurance
athletes, performing an identical form of glycogen super compensation do
not see increases in muscle mass. This suggests that the simple act of
carbohydrate restriction and protein breakdown followed by carbohydrate
loading may not independently promote anabolic processes.
What about side effects?
Probably the largest side effect reported with ketogenic diets is fatigue,
especially during the initial adaptation to ketone metabolism, especially
in the brain. A recent study found that, during the first week of a
ketogenic diet, performance on tests indicative of mental flexibility were
impaired. These affects abated as the diet was continued (21).
One question regarding ketogenic diets is the potential effects on blood
lipid profile. Anecdotally, many individuals report an improvement in
blood lipid profile but this author could only find one reference to
cholesterol levels. During 4 weeks of adaptation to a ketogenic diet,
cholesterol levels did increase from 139 to 200. What effects on blood
lipid longer periods of ketosis would have had are currently unknown. (18)
This underscores the absolute need for anyone desiring to try this approach
to monitor blood lipid levels with frequent blood testing.
Unfortunately, no direct research has been done in the last 15 or so years
looking at untoward side effects of the ketogenic diets. While it is
attractive to draw inference from studies of epileptic children, for whom
ketosis appears to control a majority of intractable seizures and who are
kept in deep ketosis for periods of a year or more (5,13), this sub
population may or may not be indicative of the effects of such a diet in
healthy individuals. Additionally, the fact that the diet is abandoned
after that period of time suggests that long term ketosis may have unwanted
effects. Or that long term adaptation to the ketogenic diet is sufficient
to control the seizures without having to maintain the diet.
Additionally, ketogenic diets have shown some promise in the treatment of
certain types of tumors by starving the tumor of glucose while providing
adequate energy substrates in the form of KB's to other tissues (16).
But, as with the subgroup mentioned above, it would be exceedingly
premature to draw inference as to the long term side effects which may
occur with a ketogenic diet from these studies. The longest study on
ketogenic diets found by this researcher in the last 15 years were only 4
weeks in duration. Therefore, it can only be concluded at this time that
long term side effects of ketogenic diets are not currently known.
Considering that many disease states such as coronary artery disease can
take years to manifest themselves, caution must be taken.
As with any radical change in diet or food intake, especially one such as
the ketogenic diet which causes extreme changes in the body's biochemistry,
individuals must take care to monitor their health status. Tracking blood
lipid profile and other indicators of heart disease as well as other bodily
functions will help to indicate if any negative effects are occurring in
the body and frequent diagnostic tests are highly recommended.
Additionally, it is currently unknown whether adaptation to long term
ketosis can be reversed without detrimental effects to normal metabolism.
That is to say, it is conceivable that the metabolic effects caused by such
a major dietary change could cause irreversible changes to normal
metabolism.
Some comment should be made is in regards to nutrient intake. Due to the
restrictive nature of ketogenic diets the potential exists for
micronutrient deficiencies. In the studies on ketogenic diets, the
researchers provided supplementation of a multi-vitamin/mineral tablet to
ensure adequate micronutrient intake. It may be advisable for those why
try such a diet independently to supplement with a multi-vitamin/mineral
providing 100% of the RDA. Additionally, since the consumption of nutrient
dense foods such as vegetables is severely restricted during the week,
these foods should be consumed during the carbohydrate loading phase so
that absolute reliance on supplements is not required.
Another thing that deserves mention is this: the high dietary fat intake
necessitated by the ketogenic diet is such that increased free radical
production could potentially occur. However, this area requires further
direct study before any conclusions can be drawn. As with other potential
health concerns, this further underscores the need for an individual to
closely monitor their health status before and while beginning such a
dietary regime.
The issue of ketoacidosis
A final criticism that arises relative to ketogenic diets is the extreme
danger of uncontrolled ketoacidosis. KB's are acidic in nature. The
uncontrolled buildup of KB's would lower pH levels of the blood causing
death. However, we must differentiate between ketosis as it occurs in
diabetics and ketosis as it occurs in non-diabetics. Recall that ketosis
occurs when insulin levels drop and glucagon levels rise. In diabetics,
this can occur even with high blood sugar levels due to the inability of
the pancreas to secrete insulin. In this situation, glucose production is
augmented but peripheral utilization is reduced. Blood sugar rises to
exceedingly high levels of 300 to 2000 mg/dl (normal blood glucose
concentration is 80-120 mg/dl). But, due to the low insulin to glucagon
ratio, ketogenesis is also stimulated. However, due to the presence of
high blood glucose levels, ketoacid use is prevented. Thus, KB
concentration increases to high levels, eventually lowering blood pH and
causing diabetic ketoacidosis and eventually death. Contrast this to
ketosis as it occurs in conditions such as fasting, or carbohydrate
restricted/high fat diets. In this case, blood sugar levels are subnormal
and KB's do not buildup in the bloodstream as they will be utilized by
peripheral tissues for energy (2).
Additionally, ketoacidosis in diabetics seems related to a defect causing
increased production. Normally, there is a negative feedback loop whereby
excess ketones prevent further production. The slight difference in KB
clearance versus KB appearance corresponds to urinary excretion which is
always below 10% of total turnover. (1)
As further evidence, exercise, which is ketogenic in nature, does not
cause the expected increase in KB concentrations so a negative feedback
loop appears also to be present. (6) This suggests that out of control
ketoacidosis should not occur in normal individuals but, again, there is no
real long term data on this aspect of the diet. Regular checks of urinary
KB concentration (utilizing Ketostix), blood glucose (using a glucometer),
and other indicators of potential problems are highly recommended.
In conclusion, with the available data, the cyclical ketogenic diet may
have merit for certain applications. The carbohydrate restriction coupled
with the induction of ketosis seems to promote a hormonal mileu conducive
to fat loss. The carbohydrate loading process on the weekend is the least
understood (and least researched) aspect of this dietary approach and much
further elucidation of the possible anabolic processes is required before
any definite conclusions can be drawn. The long term health effects in
healthy individuals of this dietary approach are unknown. The only
studies over four weeks in length were conducted on populations which do
not allow extrapolation to healthy individuals. Again, more research is
needed to establish the safety of this dietary approach in the long term.
In the very short term (4 weeks), it seems well tolerated except for the
afforementioned cognitive effects.
Regular blood work (including before commencing the diet to establish a
baseline) as well as regular checks for urinary ketone concentration are
highly recommended. Any metabolic abnormalities occurring in either tests
should be taken as a sign that the dietary approach should be abandoned.
Finally, due to effects on mental clarity during the first few weeks of a
ketogenic diet, this approach is not suitable for individuals involved in a
job or activity requiring high amounts of mental acuity.
References:
1. Balasse, EO and F. Fery. "Ketone body production and disposal: effects
of fasting, diabetes, and exercise. [Review]" Diabetes - Metabolism Reviews
5(3): 247-70, 1989.
2. Berne, Robert M. and Matthew N. Levy. Physiology. St. Louis, MS: C.V.
Mosby company, 1988.
3. Biolo G. et. al. "Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein
synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal
muscle." J Clin Investigation 95(2): 811-9, 1995.
4. Cutler, D.L. "Low-carbohydrate diet alters intracellular glucose
metabolism but not overall glucose disposal in exercise-trained subjects."
Metabolism: Clinical and Experimental 44(10): 1364-70, 1995.
5. John M. Freeman, Kelly, M. and Freeman, Jennifer. The epilepsy diet
treatment: an introduction to the ketogenic diet. Freeman, Kelly, Freeman,
1994.
6. Fery, F. and EO Balasse "Response of ketone body metabolism to exercise
during transition from postabsorptive to fasted state." Am J Physiology
250 (5 Pt 1): E495-501, 1986.
7. Guyton, Arthur C. Textbook of medical physiology. Philadelphia, Pa: W.B.
Saunders Company, 1996.
8. Mark Hargreaves, ed. Exercise Metabolism. Champaign, IL: Human
Kinetics 1995.
9. Haussinger D. "Control of protein turnover by the cellular hydration
state." [Review] Italian J Gastroenterology 25(1): 42-8, 1993.
10. Haussinger D. et. al. "Cellular hydration state: an important
determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease." Lancet 341
(8856): 1330-2, 1993.
11. Henriksson, J. "Influence of exercise on insulin sensitivity. [Review]"
J Cardiovascular Risk. 2(4): 303-9, 1995.
12. Kather, H. et. al. "Influences of variation in total energy intake and
dietary composition on regulation of fat cell lipolysis in ideal-weight
subjects." J Clin Investigation. 80(2): 566-72, 1987.
13. Kinsman SL. et al. "Efficacy of the ketogenic diet for intractable
seizure disorders: review of 58 cases." Epilepsia 33(6): 1132-6, 1992.
14. Lambert EV et. al. "Enhanced endurance in trained cyclists during
moderate intensity exercise following 2 weeks adaptation to a high fat
diet." Eur J App Physiology & Occup Physiology 69(4): 287-93, 1994.
15. Mitchell GA et al. "Medical aspects of ketone body metabolism.
[Review]" Clinical & Investigative Medicine 18(3): 193-216.
16. Nebeling, N.C. et. al. "Effects of a ketogenic diet on tumor metabolism
and nutritional status in pediatric oncology patients: two case reports."
J American College of Nutrition 14(2): 202-8, 1995.
17. Phinney SD. et. al. "The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capacity
with reduced carbohydrate oxidation." Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental
32(8): 769-76, 1983.
18. Phinney SD. et. al. "The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
without caloric restriction: physical and biochemical adaptation."
Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental 32(8): 757-68, 1983.
19. Shephard, R.J. and P-O Astrand. ed. Endurance in Sport. Oxford,
England: Blackwell Scientific Publishing, 1992.
20. Sidery, MB. et. al. "The initial physiological responses to glucose
ingestion in normal subjects are modified by a 3 d high-fat diet." British
J Nutrition 64(3): 705-13, 1990.
21. Wing RR, et. al. "Cognitive effects of ketogenic weight-reducing
diets." Int J Obesity & Related Metabolic Disorders 19(11): 811-6, 1995.
Copyright 1996. Lyle McDonald, CSCS
DaIronFist
New member
wow - great post! get cut and build mass? did i hear that right? so CKD would be good to do while on a cycle?
NY Muscle
Well-known member
DaIronFist said:
Gaining mass(LBM) on a ketogenic diet is like trying to drive an 8 cylinder car with only 4 spark plugs in...sure you will move a little bit if you are LUCKY...but its a VERY inefficient and slow way of doing it.
Unless you are a newbie to juice and you start a above maintenance calorie diet with juice, you wont gain much if ANYTHING on a CKD....CKD is for fat loss and MUSCLE MAINTENANCE...it is NOT a diet to gain LBM...why waste time with a CKD when you could eat all those yummy carbs and gain LBM.
You have to decide what you want...gaining mass or losing fat...if you TRY to do BOTH at the same time...you will get CRAPPY results for both goals....do one or the other...bulk up on CLEAN carbs then cut up and maintain the LBM on a CKD.
Its a HUGE waste of juice if you are taking juice and trying to gain LBM on a CKD....use the juice to prevent muscle loss...not try to gain...cause it wont happen unless you are a newbie to drugs and diet.
MASSIVEmorris
New member
-You're lucky. I supplement with fiber (pill form, maybe I need to switch to powder) daily. Yet, I find myself making plea-bargains with the "powers above" ..."Please...please let me pass this piece of shit...I'll be a better person...I'll...I'll...do anything, why me?!?!" ...All in all, I'm one constipated angry mo'fo.
IronMonkey69
New member
Great thread KAK
Thats got to be my favoritest quote of the week, hell the whole month...thanx massive
Thats got to be my favoritest quote of the week, hell the whole month...thanx massive
MASSIVEmorris
New member
Heh, just thought I would bring in some comic relief regarding my constipation. On a positive note- when you're pushing that hard to make "it" come out...you get pronounced vascularity. I get some good pumps on the toilet <--- could be taken out of context.
Disposable_Hero
New member
bump to the top
Up to the top!
I have been doing this diet now starting my 5th week tomorrow.Currently just taking ALA, creatine, and ECA (b4 workout).
Start:
206 @15%
175 LBM
31 FAT
End of Week 4
203 @12.8%
178 LBM
25 FAT
Overall not bad. I wish to have lost some more fat(I would like to get down to single digits). I believe the added muscle is from the creatine I started taking at the beginning of the second week, so that might explain the increased LBM.
Gonna try it out for 4 more weeks and hope to get down to <10%.
Wish me luck....
Chuck
I have been doing this diet now starting my 5th week tomorrow.Currently just taking ALA, creatine, and ECA (b4 workout).
Start:
206 @15%
175 LBM
31 FAT
End of Week 4
203 @12.8%
178 LBM
25 FAT
Overall not bad. I wish to have lost some more fat(I would like to get down to single digits). I believe the added muscle is from the creatine I started taking at the beginning of the second week, so that might explain the increased LBM.
Gonna try it out for 4 more weeks and hope to get down to <10%.
Wish me luck....
Chuck
Kakdiesel
Banned
you fuckers still reading this?? LOL
i'm glad people are still interested..again, any questions, yell at my way..
georgie you need to email me at [email protected]..i was wondering if you could help me out with some info.
i'm glad people are still interested..again, any questions, yell at my way..
georgie you need to email me at [email protected]..i was wondering if you could help me out with some info.
PSYCHOPATHIC
New member
Bump!! for all this good info.
kak's article really put me in the best shape of my life. right after i was done dieting i put on a bit of lean body mass w/ out roids, all i did was up the carbs and add ala.
huge bump for kak!!!!
p.s i been eating like shit last two months, my wieght fluctuates 2-3 pounds or so, there has NOT been any rebound for me what so ever only muscle memory
try it youll like it!!!!
huge bump for kak!!!!
p.s i been eating like shit last two months, my wieght fluctuates 2-3 pounds or so, there has NOT been any rebound for me what so ever only muscle memory
try it youll like it!!!!
I did the diet all summer and finally got down to ~200lbs @ 11% body fat.(started at 206 @ 15%BF)
I tried to continue to do the diet once I returned to school but have hardly been able to eat anything...My total caloric intake per day is prob only about 1500 b/c of studying and being busy...
So since I have came back to school my wieght has stayed the same (200) but I have lost a little muscle and gained some fat. I plan on enjoying carbs the rest of the year then start this diet again in January 2003. It definitely works! I actually was gaining muscle, getting stronger, and getting leaner when I was doing this over the summer.
Chuck
I tried to continue to do the diet once I returned to school but have hardly been able to eat anything...My total caloric intake per day is prob only about 1500 b/c of studying and being busy...
So since I have came back to school my wieght has stayed the same (200) but I have lost a little muscle and gained some fat. I plan on enjoying carbs the rest of the year then start this diet again in January 2003. It definitely works! I actually was gaining muscle, getting stronger, and getting leaner when I was doing this over the summer.
Chuck
Quick question about r-ALA doseage... is there some kind of standard recommended amount to take with each meal? I read that some people are using 500mg, some more, some less... anyone have any input on this?
If it's a "go by how you feel" kind of thing... any input on that? How does one feel while taking r-ALA?
If it's a "go by how you feel" kind of thing... any input on that? How does one feel while taking r-ALA?
i think this diet + primo/winny is the best thing that ever happend to me 2 weeks in and i have not lost a single pound. HOWEVER my waist is shrinking witch means these two drugs are sparing mass very very well. when i first ran this diet natural i lost about 10 pounds in the first week alone. i also looked like a shaved bird after the diet was over hehe... this is going to get very interesting
stay tuned.....
2 weeks in and i have not lost a single pound. HOWEVER my waist is shrinking witch means these two drugs are sparing mass very very well. when i first ran this diet natural i lost about 10 pounds in the first week alone. i also looked like a shaved bird after the diet was over hehe... this is going to get very interestingstay tuned.....
ok i did a whole upper boddy workout 2 sets for bi's,chest,tri's,back,shoulders. overall still feel a bit weak but nothing major. tomorw and wedsday are pure cardio days, im shooting for 10 sprints and 1/2 hour on the treadmill on an incline 4.0%.
weight today 228
my last shred of carb was friday at 12:00 pm btw
weight today 228
my last shred of carb was friday at 12:00 pm btw
I have read kak's first post and I calculated all the numbers and stuff. I just wouldn't know what to eat. And where in the world to get all that fat!!! And it is just STRICTLY protein and fat??? No fruits or veggies I assume? And what about Peanut Butter? Has lots of fat but has carbs?
I have read kak's first post and I calculated all the numbers and stuff. I just wouldn't know what to eat. And where in the world to get all that fat!!! And it is just STRICTLY protein and fat??? No fruits or veggies I assume? And what about Peanut Butter? Has lots of fat but has carbs? And how long would I do this diet?
as far as muscle loss i wouldnt do this diet w/out some sort of anabolic or androgen. i did it before natural with great results but all my ratio's and carb up was spot on. with gear you stay full and hard even when you have no carbs in your system. i ahve not had a lick of carb since friday and my muscles still have a pump in the gym and im not at all flat. moreso im probbly gonna skip this weeks carb up as i feel i dont need it, it will speed up fatloss aswell. i use grilled chicken breast smothered with cheeeses and salsa's, natty peanut butter, muscle milk, cashews's and its going great. i could easily do 15-20 weeks on this diet. apetite is in check .
im finding that working out with weights should be no more than 2 times a week( max intensity) then a depletion so that would be 3 workouts with weights. however hit the sprints or hiit on the days off that would be 4-5 times a week. i tried hiit after weights and it didnt last long, i was fatigued and DRAINED the next day do i just layed off that routine and things have been going great so far this time around i want to gain muscle and keep fatigue/cortisol/muscle loss if any at bay. im smarter this time around when it comes to ckd.
todays weigh-in was 226
im finding that working out with weights should be no more than 2 times a week( max intensity) then a depletion so that would be 3 workouts with weights. however hit the sprints or hiit on the days off that would be 4-5 times a week. i tried hiit after weights and it didnt last long, i was fatigued and DRAINED the next day do i just layed off that routine and things have been going great so far this time around i want to gain muscle and keep fatigue/cortisol/muscle loss if any at bay. im smarter this time around when it comes to ckd.
todays weigh-in was 226
Tryn2
New member
I wonder with a sensible eating plan and no aas would acheive the same goals. I mean using hiit cardio and a faster paced workout. But with diet the carbs should be held at low glycemic during the day , no carbs after say 4:00 and an excessive protein intake. No carb loading, yet no carb depletion either.
yea that sounds good too. its all about calories in and calories out. when i use the conventiononal body builder diet i suffer and de-rail because i dont eat enough........ chicken breast and low glycemic carbs dont add up to alot of calories when i eat super clean..
ckd works best for me as far as fat loss
ckd works best for me as far as fat loss
40g of whey pre and post workout is an absolute must if you wanna stay energetic,full muscle bellies, i started doing this 2 weeks ago and its worked ALOT better for sparing mass, and it staves off that dreadful feeling of overtraining and fatigue that you get from low/no carbing post workout
ok its week 5 now and the MAGIC is rearing its beautyful head. dont ask about weight because my stupid gym doesnt have a scale.. pants are so baggy now..... its refreshing to see results from the hard work and dedication.. im out of primo at the moment so i switched to the evil testosterone to stack with my winny. im only doing 50mg e3d or so. i hate test as it is thats why i keep it really low.
diet has been
40g whey pre workout
40g whey post workout
dinner- huge steak and 3 eggs
4 table spoons of natural pb through out the night (night shift)
8 buffalo wings 2x a night
a gallon of water every night
training
monday shoulders 8 sets 8 reps
tueday chest 6 sets 8 reps
wedsday back 8 sets 8 reps
thursaday HIIT cardio/abs
friday full body depletin + carb up
satyday eat/chill/sleep/fuck
sunday legs 8 sets 8 reps
keep it simple guys!!!!
diet has been
40g whey pre workout
40g whey post workout
dinner- huge steak and 3 eggs
4 table spoons of natural pb through out the night (night shift)
8 buffalo wings 2x a night
a gallon of water every night
training
monday shoulders 8 sets 8 reps
tueday chest 6 sets 8 reps
wedsday back 8 sets 8 reps
thursaday HIIT cardio/abs
friday full body depletin + carb up
satyday eat/chill/sleep/fuck
sunday legs 8 sets 8 reps
keep it simple guys!!!!
no way jose!!!!!! belive me dont split hairs and fall into the bb'ing dogma...whey is GREAT addition to this. pre- and post workout is optimal...im an slow metabolism big boned endomorph...belive me bro whey will not hinder!!
not to contradict kaks post but im using whey with great results...my muscle bellies are thanking me everyday..
when kak set this up for me i rose it to the tee. he kinda put training wheels on my diet situation now im off those wheels and running on all 12 cylinders on my own. now im modifing it a bit to fit my overall goals and what not...whey will help you stay hard and have a decent pump in the gym
not to contradict kaks post but im using whey with great results...my muscle bellies are thanking me everyday..
when kak set this up for me i rose it to the tee. he kinda put training wheels on my diet situation now im off those wheels and running on all 12 cylinders on my own. now im modifing it a bit to fit my overall goals and what not...whey will help you stay hard and have a decent pump in the gym
maxedout916
New member
hey i jus got onto this thread today and t\let me tell you i cant wait to start this diet!!!!! geargie im gonna need some help with this prob so if you have an email or what not or if you jus want to talk through this thread let me kno. i have a big question though, can i do a clen/T3 cycle while on this diet do you think? and maybe add in some deca or eq for strength and hardening? thanks a lot and this might be the best thrad iv ever got on!!!!!!
maxedout916
New member
ok so let me get this straight, im 200 puonds prob like 170 lean mass. so i need to eat about 170 g protein and around 205 g of fat per day sun through fri morn? then how many carbs split between fri night and sat? and wat is a good workout plan/cardio if i want to get decent gains in strength but lose as much bf as poss. you seem like the man to ask. you and kak. im so glad i found this. its perfect for wat i want! thanks
maxedout916
New member
ok and this worked well for you not really knowing if you were eating too much fat or carbs or what not??? it jus seems that if i didnt really watch my numbers a lil bit that id jus eat too much fat and not lose as much as i could? and what about the training, did you find anything that worked well for makin some strength and size gains and still get you ripped as fuck? thanks again for all your help on this.
um, some of you need to check out www.c-k-d.com
alot of what some people are saying on here isnt true...first of all, the diet sodas...those with citric acid and aspartame may kick you out of ketosis. Same with some fiber supplements...they have citric acid in them to make them taste good, well, that may kick you out of ketosis.
alot of what some people are saying on here isnt true...first of all, the diet sodas...those with citric acid and aspartame may kick you out of ketosis. Same with some fiber supplements...they have citric acid in them to make them taste good, well, that may kick you out of ketosis.
maxedout916
New member
im 20. what does it matter? theres no like age limit on this diet is there? lol neways bump on my Q's and again thanks for your help.
Ok not shure if this diet will fit my training.
Sun-off
Mon-squats(heavy) 8 sets, Deadlifts (heavy) 8 sets, Seated leg extentions 3sets and burnout set, Ham extentions 3 sets + burnout, Calfs 1 excersize 3 sets. Then run 4-5 miles, and usually collaps and go into semi coma or at least be pretty tired.
Most of the rest of the weeks workouts are at 90% the intensity as leg day. I do 1 muscle group a day once a week but hit chest twice. I also run the 4-5 miles 6 days per wk. I have no problems with energy on this diet and dont think there would be a problem working out the way I have been DO YOU? Also how can we eat cashews and peanuts? Cashews especially have a tun of carbs.
Sun-off
Mon-squats(heavy) 8 sets, Deadlifts (heavy) 8 sets, Seated leg extentions 3sets and burnout set, Ham extentions 3 sets + burnout, Calfs 1 excersize 3 sets. Then run 4-5 miles, and usually collaps and go into semi coma or at least be pretty tired.
Most of the rest of the weeks workouts are at 90% the intensity as leg day. I do 1 muscle group a day once a week but hit chest twice. I also run the 4-5 miles 6 days per wk. I have no problems with energy on this diet and dont think there would be a problem working out the way I have been DO YOU? Also how can we eat cashews and peanuts? Cashews especially have a tun of carbs.
maxedout916
New member
yea bump on Q's. thanks
maxedout916
New member
nice info georgie. bump for my Q's plz? im gonna start this soon so im gettin as much info as i can. thanks
yes do go over to ckd.com another good resource if you wanna check out if certain food or condiment is good for ckd..i do all the time..im a member there as well...
cahews do not have a ton of carbs!! just read the labels keep carbs under 7 or so if you wanna do cashews, then subtract 4 grams for fiber and your left with 3..
im doing great with peanuts and cashews
cahews do not have a ton of carbs!! just read the labels keep carbs under 7 or so if you wanna do cashews, then subtract 4 grams for fiber and your left with 3..
im doing great with peanuts and cashews
maxedout916
New member
sounds good. wat supps are you taking with the diet right now? and you still gettin good results? the results must slow down a bit after the first few weeks dont they?
Dont split hairs...lol...if you want serious results, and want to do this diet correctly, then water is your best choice. Some sweeteners such as splenda are fine. The citric acid and aspatame have been shown to kick some pople out of ketosis, myself included. So, do what you want, and if its working, good for you. 
georgie24 said:
K
Kakdiesel
Guest
wow. i miss writing articles like this one 
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