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My old CKD article I wrote for George24....

Kakdiesel

Banned
Its in the archives so I couldnt "bump" it back up here and instead of giving you the link i'll just repost it for ya :) enjoy


It has come to my attention recently by some emails from fellow bro's on elite that I should say something about cyclical ketogenic diets. I wrote an article on it for a sports supplement company's newsletter a while back and this is for any of you who are interested in this. Of course, I have left out my name on it to hide my identity since I've more than openly talked about steroid use on this board. However, I do not sell, or advocate the use of illegal substances nor does the company I wrote this article for: Enjoy

The Cyclical Ketogenic Diet: True Fat Loss

In recent media, low carbohydrate diets have been THE fad for almost everybody in America wanting to lose weight. From your secretaries, elementary school teachers, and desk clerks, to bodybuilders, models, actresses, and athletes.

However, there is a huge difference between those who follow an Atkins plan and those who follow a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD). Atkins is a low carb plan for those who are quite sedentary, walk maybe 3 times a week at the most, and just follow normal everyday activities. So forget Atkins here. The CKD is for those who’s main concern is true fat loss and muscle preservation—muscle for sports and high intensity activities.

My opinion for those who practice Atkins is that while they do lose fat, there is much water loss and most importantly muscle loss. Something we athletes do not want. A CKD is a true fat loss diet that works undeniably, if followed properly and strictly. Yes, low carb diets can be hell at first, but after two to three weeks, there have been anecdotal reports from many dieters that the cravings for carbohydrates decrease. This route to fat burning is unlike any traditional diet all the low-fat diet authors and FDA people have been advocating in history.

I got turned onto this diet a few years back when I got tired of cutting fat and still not being able to lose those last percentage points of bodyfat without losing hard earned muscle. I would start a low-fat diet, and be a either a social misfit (not going out with my friends to party or not going out to eat). Or in the worse case, feel so deprived of delicious junk foods I missed and bail out on the diet all together. One advantage to this diet is that there is no true restrictions on food. One may eat anything labeled a "food"! Well, almost. I’ll explain later.

How the diet works.

The science behind the CKD is simple. Carbohydrates in the diet cause an insulin (a "storage" hormone) output in the pancreas. It is used to store glycogen, amino acids into muscles, while causing excess calories to be stored as fat. So common sense asks me, "How can one try to break down fat, when your body is in a storage-type mode?" Difficult to do, indeed. That is why it makes perfect sense for step one to be cutting carbs.

The next thing that happens in your body is the rise in catecholamines (a "fat mobilizing" hormone), cortisol (a "breakdown" hormone), and growth hormone. Now your body realizes there’s no more carbs to burn for energy, so it must find another energy source: fat.

This usually happens during a metabolic condition called "ketosis." This is when your liver is out of glycogen and starts to produce ketones (by-products of fatty acids). You can check your status of whether or not you are in ketosis with urinalysis strips you can pick up at any local drug store called "Ketostix." Just urinate and see if it turns color. If so, you have ketones in the urine.

When the body is fed fat and protein, it will use dietary fat along with bodyfat for energy with protein going towards repair.

As a side note, there is another reason why this diet makes the most sense to use while keeping muscle. When one follows a high carbohydrate, low-fat, reduced-calorie diet, there’s a point when some bodyfat is burned, but when the body is still in a carbohydrate burning metabolism while trying to lose "weight," it will strip down precious body protein to convert to glucose for energy.

On the other hand, during fat metabolism, protein cannot be converted into free-fatty acids for energy. Although there is no scientific research done on this, there have been reports from followers that there truly is a "protein-sparing" effect. It makes sense doesn’t it? Where else would the body look for fat energy when all dietary fat is burned? Bodyfat.

Diet Requirements Mon. to Fri.

The phrase "working smarter, not harder" applies here more than any diet one has tried. One must fully understand what they must do in order to optimize their goal. To set a CKD up, one cannot just expect to cut all carbs in the diet, train hard, and lose fat! Although some have come up with variations to this plan, the one stated in this article, I have found, has worked for myself (it got me to 6% BF), and other clients I’ve trained to the leanest, hardest they’ve ever been.

First, to set up the diet, write down your lean mass weight. Not your total weight, dough boy. If you weigh 200, but have 20% bodyfat, your lean mass weight would be around 160 pounds. Multiply this by one, getting your grams of protein requirements for a day. Make sure you eat at least one gram of protein/pound of lean mass! This is important in recovery from workouts and enough nitrogen retention to keep muscle. Next, multiply by four, to get your protein calories. Here, it is 640.

The rest of your caloric requirements for the day should be fat. Here is the catch: you must eat fat to burn fat. There’s no way around it. There are many advantages to dietary fat on this diet: Feeling of fullness since fat digestion is slow (less hunger), tastes great, and lowers blood glucose levels (lowering insulin and allow all the fat burning hormones to do their job).

So how much fat? I always recommend starting out with a 500 calorie deficit from your maintenance calories. If you don’t know, it is usually 15 times body weight (full body weight here) depending on an individuals metabolic rate. So here, the example would need 3000 calories a day to maintain weight, and 2500 calories to begin fat loss.

2500 minus 640 (protein calories) is 1860 which works out to be around 206 fat grams a day. Now as you go deeper into the diet, and find the need to restrict calories more, you must cut fat calories, not protein.

The Weekend Carb Load

Since muscle glycogen is the main source of energy for anaerobic exercise such as weight training, we cannot simply deplete all stores while working out and not fill them back up. If that does happen, be rest-assured that the body WILL use protein for fuel then. But this won’t happen on the CKD.

Your one and a half days of "freedom" allow you to do two things: First, reward your carb cravings from the previous days, allowing you to enjoy pleasures like pizza, pasta, breads, etc. Second, eating these things are physiologically rewarding as insulin levels run high, storing amino acids and carbs, as glycogen, into the depleted muscle allowing you to be able to workout again the following week.

Your "carb-up" should begin Friday night and last until around midnight Saturday. Now the next important issue to address is how many carbs. Some lucky individuals find that they eat whatever they want for the 24-30 hour time interval and receive perfect glycogen compensation, while others rely on a better statistical number.

What has been recommended by other authors of the CKD is 10-12 grams of carbs per kilogram of lean mass. Again, time to do math. Our example had 160 pounds of lean mass, so divide that by the conversion factor of 2.2, and we get roughly 73 kg.

100 Grams of easily digested liquid carbs along with around half as many grams of carbs in protein (here 50) as a whey shake or something of that nature should be taken right after the last workout (which I will address in the workout section of the article) when insulin sensitivity will be at its greatest.

A few hours later this individual will start to spread the remaining 630 grams of carbs, along with the important number of 160 grams of protein (remember, keep this constant) during the remainder of the compensation period.

So what about dietary fat? I know you’re reminding yourself, "Didn’t this guy mention pizza?" Yes, I did. And here’s why. During the first 24-30 hours of carbing up, the body will use all dietary carbohydrates to refill glycogen, protein for rebuilding, and get this: fat for energy. Still?

Just like the previous five and a half days. Makes sense. When all the carbohydrates are being used for more important functions (muscle), what else is there to be used? However, you can’t just eat all the fat you want. Keep grams of fat intake below your body weight in kilograms. Again, here our example will keep is fat below 73 during the carb-fest.

By anecdotal reports, this should keep fat regain minimal to nil. Keeping fat intake extremely low has even caused some extra fat burning during the carb up!

But people who have tried this, myself included, have complaints about insulin swings from the quick digestion of carbs: High, low, high, low. Not very fun when you want to enjoy your weekend. Some just fall into a sugar coma and sleep all day. Kind of like after eating all those sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, and pumpkin pie after Thanksgiving dinner. Its not ONLY the tryptophan in turkey that causes sleep!

As stated before, some dietary fat should be eaten to slow digestion and keep sugar levels stable. Whether it be saturated, unsaturated, or essential fats, is the dieter’s decision. All have nine calories per gram. (Note: there is a claim that essential fatty acids such as flax seed oil increase insulin sensitivity within the muscle cells, in turn, increasing glycogen intake.)

In Case You Missed It

So here’s how it breaks down during the week: Sunday through Friday afternoon , you will follow the low carb diet outlined above. Eat fat and protein all day everyday except on workout days because after workouts, you will need to consume strictly just protein—no fat or carbs.

Some have found to enjoy a protein shake afterwards because they are easily digested. Do whatever works for you. But fat is not logical since you want the protein to fuel the healing process as quickly as possible and fat will only slow it down.

Friday afternoon, around two hours before your last workout of the week, eat two to three pieces of fruit. This will get your body/liver ready to start the carb loading and give you some energy for that final, dreadful workout (trust me, during the first few weeks, you will not want to do that final workout, but you must). Then from Friday night until Saturday at midnight or until bed, eat those carbs!

CKD Workout

Now, the question is, how do we workout to optimize muscle preservation and keep our metabolism up while dieting? Before we get into that, one must realize that during any dieting scheme there is one thing that must be done, and one thing that must not be done.

First, you must keep training volume lower than your usual routine. Overtraining is probably the number one killer in motivation, it deprives sleep, and hinders fat loss.

Second, you must not fall into the myth of lighter weights with higher reps. You got your muscle by benching 240, and you have to bench 240 to keep that same muscle! Or at least around that area! Okay, now that we have that established, here’s what we do:

On Monday and Tuesday we will work our weaker body parts, rest or cardio on Wednesday and Thursday mornings, Thursday do our strongest body parts, and Friday a combination of the Monday/Tuesday workouts in a loop format. The workout I have found to work optimally for myself and my clients is this:

(Note: You may feel free to tweak, shake, and turn this example upside down.

Everybody is different, so find what works for you.)

MONDAY: Chest, Back, Abs

High intensity workouts with 60 sec rest between sets, 90 sec rest between

each exercise

(this excludes all warm up sets)

Bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

T-bar Row 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Incline bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Latpulldown to front 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Dips or Decline bench 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Shrugs 3 sets, 6-10 reps

Flys (any type) 2 sets, 10-12 reps

Reverse flys 2 sets, 10-12 reps

Stiff-leg deadlift 3 sets, 10-12 reps

Rope ab crunch 3 sets, 10-15 reps

Reverse crunch 3 sets, 10-20 reps

TUESDAY: Shoulders, Arms

Same intensity mentioned before

Behind the neck shoulder press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Military press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Preacher curls 3 sets, 8-10 reps

French press or "skull-crushers" 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Shoulder raises (any type) 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Hammers 3 sets, 8-10 reps

V-bar tricep press 3 sets, 8-10 reps

Forearm curls 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Reverse forearm curls 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Wednesday: Rest or Cardio

Thursday morning: Rest or Cardio

Later on Thursday: Legs

Same intensity mentioned before

Squat or Leg press 4 sets, 6-10 reps

Lying leg curl 4 sets, 6-10 reps

Standing calf raise 4 sets 6-10 reps

Leg extensions 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Seated leg curl 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Seated calf raise 4 sets, 10-12 reps

Friday night: Final Workout

Same intensity mentioned before

Bench 2 sets, 6-10 reps

T-bar Row 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Incline bench 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Latpulldown to front 2 sets, 6-10 reps

Behind the neck shoulder press 1 set, 8-10 reps

Military press 1 set, 8-10 reps

Either curl exercise 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Either tricep exercise 2 sets, 8-10 reps

Stiffleg deadift 1 set, 8-10 reps

Normal floor ab crunch 2 sets, 10-20 reps

Reverse crunches 2 sets, 10-20 reps

Start the carb up for 24-30 hours!


Aerobics

Before we go on, I want to address the cardio/aerobics issue. Some people find that for the first month on a CKD, cardio/aerobics is not needed. However when fat loss does start to slow down a bit, that is when most start adding 30 min. sessions on their off days. Be careful though, you do not want to hinder your Thursday leg workout. So experiment and try to only add aerobic sessions if you feel you have to.

Supplements

So we have the basic diet outline stated, the workout, now what about supplements? Things that can extremely optimize this diet regime. Well, I have to admit no allegiance to any supplement company on this one: Water. Water is important on any diet, especially low carb since there is a diuretic effect, and more importantly during the carbing period. Glycogen is stored with water! You need as much water as possible to hydrate the depleted muscle. Trust me, you will feel a huge "pump" on Sunday morning from all the stored carbs and water INSIDE your muscle.

Speaking of muscle, the god of all sports supplement right now: Creatine. It can still be used on a low carb diet. Usually 10 grams a day during the low carb days, and around 20-30 grams during the carbing period should work for most everybody. I highly recommend it for everybody who doesn’t get an upset stomach using it.

Finally, one that everyone that’s dieted before knows about: The ECA stack. Most have not used pure ECA, but mainly herbal extracts in thermogenic products sold by sports supplement companies. For a pre-work out boost and increased fat burning through thermogenics (heat), this is my favorite supplement. It does its job, you feel it happening, and it can help you psychologically when you don’t feel like working out that day.

Conclusion

With all this said, I will throw my personal opinion, thanks and motivation on or for the cyclical ketogenic diet. First of all, to me, it is the greatest diet every developed. It makes sense, works and isn’t as hard to follow as one might think. Just stay motivated and concentrate on your goal.

When you have a craving during the week for that cupcake or pasta, just go eat a delicious serving of some pepperoni and melted mozzarella cheese. Or how about a hamburger patty covered in cheddar cheese and some strips of bacon? Foods that are delicious and that can satiate hunger.

I followed this exact plan this past summer for eight weeks and loss 18 pounds of fat without any loss in muscle. It was the leanest and most vascular I had ever seen myself.

And I must give thanks where thanks are due since I did not come up with this diet. Dan Duchaine, who recently passed away, brought my attention to a CKD with his book BodyOpus and Lyle McDonald has done deep research and wrote his book The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner.

This diet can be for you. Oh you’re only a mass builder? Well, lower bodyfat percentages even make you look bigger! Give it some thought and decide. Then achieve your goal. It’s worth it: A diet with true fat loss.
 
ok i have a few questoins ill be as blunt as possible

can i use twin labs utra fuel to carb up( i get mxed opinions)

since i weigh 235 i should shoot for 700 grmas of carbs?

im prone to binge eat is it ok to carb up every two weeks?

realisticly how much weight can i drop in 12 weeks if i follow to a tee?

what do you recomend for "carbing up" foods?
 
Great post Kakdiesel.

Couple of questions.

1) Is it okay to take 3000mg of ala per day.

2) What days could one incorporate the 3 day DNP cycle on this diet.

3) If one was active on the weekend, such as biking for 3-4 hours saturday and sunday. Should that person eat more carbs on Friday night and saturday to make up for the energy being burned.

4) How do vegtables such as broccli and carrots fit in with this diet. When you say cut carbs do you mean 0 carbs. Or could one say for instance have a serving of chicken and a serving of broccli with some olive oil??

Thanks
Nautica
 
Re: NAUTICA

georgie24 said:
i think 3k is alot since your not having any carbs, 1k with 200 g carbs i start getting hypo

That is what I was thinking. So should you take the 3000 mg until you get into ketosis and then lower you doses.

Thanks
nautica
 
georgie24 said:
ok i have a few questoins ill be as blunt as possible

can i use twin labs utra fuel to carb up( i get mxed opinions)

since i weigh 235 i should shoot for 700 grmas of carbs?

im prone to binge eat is it ok to carb up every two weeks?

realisticly how much weight can i drop in 12 weeks if i follow to a tee?

what do you recomend for "carbing up" foods?

Yes you can use twin labs ultra fuel to carb up..but only for your first one or two meals since they are high on the glycemic index.

If you weigh 235, what poundage is of LBM and not fat? say you have 10% bf, then your lbm would be 211 pounds, which would equal out to 96 kg and you would multiply 96 by 10-12 to get the number of grams of carbs you should get (here it would be 960-1150) during the 24-36 hour carb up.

Realistically speaking, you could drop anywhere from 24-36 pounds of pure fat in 12 weeks (granted you take the right supplements and workouts)

Carb up foods? well when i did it, i was lucky in that I used junk food...i would eat candy bars post workout for the first few hours (along with whey of course:)), then pizza and burgers and fries the next 24 hours..why? Well due to the fat content and relatively low GI of these foods, I slowed down digestion, became "fuller" easier, therefore insulin didnt run too high (with a CKD, the tiniest bit of simple carbs will SHOOT your insulin way up), therefore the insulin response was even and gradual and fat gain was not a problem during carb ups..

hope this helps
 
Kakdiesel said:


Yes you can use twin labs ultra fuel to carb up..but only for your first one or two meals since they are high on the glycemic index.

If you weigh 235, what poundage is of LBM and not fat? say you have 10% bf, then your lbm would be 211 pounds, which would equal out to 96 kg and you would multiply 96 by 10-12 to get the number of grams of carbs you should get (here it would be 960-1150) during the 24-36 hour carb up.

Realistically speaking, you could drop anywhere from 24-36 pounds of pure fat in 12 weeks (granted you take the right supplements and workouts)

Carb up foods? well when i did it, i was lucky in that I used junk food...i would eat candy bars post workout for the first few hours (along with whey of course:)), then pizza and burgers and fries the next 24 hours..why? Well due to the fat content and relatively low GI of these foods, I slowed down digestion, became "fuller" easier, therefore insulin didnt run too high (with a CKD, the tiniest bit of simple carbs will SHOOT your insulin way up), therefore the insulin response was even and gradual and fat gain was not a problem during carb ups..

hope this helps

this makes sense to me im carb sensative like a mofo
are you suggesting i eat fattier foods that have carbs? like a number 1 at burger king rather than straight simple sugars?


i an VERY carb sensative
 
yes..it slows digestion a bit...

it worked for me..see when i went NO Fat on my carb up, my insulin shot up and down like crazy..i'd be lazy as fuck on the weekends cuz of the sugar crashes...i'd sleep all day and night with HUGE amounts of water retention..

Here's how i look at it..its better for me to eat some junk food because i'll eat less...what i mean is, is when I use to eat cereal and stuff for carb ups with skim milk, i would eat 2-3 boxes in a day! i couldnt stop and i was hungry all day...that would lead to extra cals plus insulin = fat gain..

its better to eat 700 cals of burger king, and be full, than eat 2000 cals of no fat food and always be hungry and gain fat :)

just my opinion based on experience:fro:
 
nautica said:
Great post Kakdiesel.

Couple of questions.

1) Is it okay to take 3000mg of ala per day.

2) What days could one incorporate the 3 day DNP cycle on this diet.

3) If one was active on the weekend, such as biking for 3-4 hours saturday and sunday. Should that person eat more carbs on Friday night and saturday to make up for the energy being burned.

4) How do vegtables such as broccli and carrots fit in with this diet. When you say cut carbs do you mean 0 carbs. Or could one say for instance have a serving of chicken and a serving of broccli with some olive oil??

Thanks
Nautica

sorry nautica..i didnt see this earlier :)

1) Yes, until you reach ketosis, then stop..there's no point and youre just wasting money after that..it is VERY beneficial to take ALA during the carb up..so here's how you would do it:

ALA spread out all day monday and tuesday, then only in the morning wednesday....then stop...then on friday or saturday when you start carb up restart the ALA in higher doses to ensure good glycogen stores

2) I would not use DNP on this for many reasons..first, your gonna be filled up with free fatty acids which are very toxic....no need to add to this toxicity...

3) yes and no...depends on HOW active you are on the weekend during carb up..if you are moderately to high, then yes eat some more carbs...but if its just regular cardio I wouldnt go overboard

4) to ENSURE ketosis, i stay away from all carbs..even vegetables that are low in carbs...if you need fiber, take metamusil (sp?) or some other fiber supplements...

hope this helps.
 
Do you really think that the workout listed above is necessary? I am just wondering not flaming. Could you stick to your own routine?
 
solidj55 said:
Do you really think that the workout listed above is necessary? I am just wondering not flaming. Could you stick to your own routine?

well this is why the routine up there is optimal:

First off, for most people, your legs are your strongest body part..therefore, they should be trained later in the week..

My weakest parts are chest, back (my arms grow fine)..that is why i hit them first in the week right after the huge carb up..

with the extra glycogen storage, you'll be able to push more weight during your workouts on monday/tuesday...this is why i choose to go with my weaker body parts cuz my strength actually INCREASES during the CKD because of the extra storage of water and carbs..

but if you want to stick to "your routine" thats fine...as long as you know what your doing:rolleyes:
 
save whey shakes til carbs up...liquid protein can cause insulin output like carbs due to quick digestion..

therefore, it would not be wise to raise insulin levels at all while trying to get into/stay in ketosis

stick with meats and solid foods..it'll make you fuller and less hungry---a huge plus while dieting obviously
 
ok i understand so far;) one more question on training should i lift heavy and add weight as i go? or stay at same weight for all sets:confused:
 
pyramid downwards so that you hit the same rep range..meaning

start out with say, 100lbs and you get it for 8 reps til failure..next set bump down to 90 pounds so that you can still get approx 8 reps til failure.

(if you can do 8 or more reps til failure with the same weight the second set, you really didnt go to true failure on your FIRST SET!)

so just go lower and lower in weight so that you can hit the rep goal on each set
 
Thanks Kakdesiel,

I tried the Atkins diet about 2 years or so ago and lost way too much muscle. Since, that time I have completely ignored any Keto diets. But, after reading your post I am going to give this one a try - just to switch things up a little.

I am doing the numbers now and starting Next week.

I will update everyone in a couple of weeks to let them know how it is going.

Thanks again
Nautica
 
anytime man :) im more than happy to help...


I just had to learn the hard way when i went through it a few years back..i had to tinkle with the training and stuff and then put my physiological background into play and tweek it so that it made sense to a regular Joe and to some doctor or PHD or scientist..

any more questions, dont hesistate to ask bro :)

by the way, i think i should be the next MOD :) what do you all think!
 
Kakdiesel said:
anytime man :) im more than happy to help...


I just had to learn the hard way when i went through it a few years back..i had to tinkle with the training and stuff and then put my physiological background into play and tweek it so that it made sense to a regular Joe and to some doctor or PHD or scientist..

any more questions, dont hesistate to ask bro :)

by the way, i think i should be the next MOD :) what do you all think!

you have my vote for mod bro!


why not!!

KAK FOR MOD:garza:
 
just a few questions,

In what food can I eat so much fat in one day,I know that olive/flax oil are very good but I mean solid food ??

You said that it's better to eat solid protein source instead of shakes, but after a work out, your muscles doesn't need proteins to digest fast ? shakes are better or doesn't matter ?

Last|Exit
 
IM GUESSING

that you need a FEW cycles under your belt to be a mod. aBut hey i can be wrong. Look at MAY1010 from triedia he must of polished roid doc's shifter to be a mod:confused:
 
Ugh...

Alright, I have a few questions. If you've already answered these...let me apologize before hand. Anyways, here goes.

1) I'm doing cardio 2x a day, 5 days a week and weight training 3x a week. Is this too much? I'm trying to get ripped quickly (I don't mind a little muscle loss).

2) During the "Carb up" ...you're telling me it's better to eat things like Burger King? What's so bad about the cereal ...(High GI carbs) ...and eventually going to low GI carbs?

3) If my primary goal is to lose fat, then, would it be out of the question to "Carb up" every other week? Or, would I end up losing too much muscle (I'll sacrifice a LITTLE, not too much).

4) Lastly, should I take Vanadyl Sulfate during my "Carb up" days...Dan Duchaine suggests it, Atkins doesn't, Pasquale doesn't either.

Thanks a lot for the help...
 
Last_Exit said:
just a few questions,

In what food can I eat so much fat in one day,I know that olive/flax oil are very good but I mean solid food ??

You said that it's better to eat solid protein source instead of shakes, but after a work out, your muscles doesn't need proteins to digest fast ? shakes are better or doesn't matter ?

Last|Exit

what do you think bodybuilders did before whey protein came out in the mid eighties??? eating tuna, chicken, or whatever is fine after working out..digestion isnt THAT different vs. whey protein..
 
Re: Ugh...

MASSIVEmorris said:
Alright, I have a few questions. If you've already answered these...let me apologize before hand. Anyways, here goes.

1) I'm doing cardio 2x a day, 5 days a week and weight training 3x a week. Is this too much? I'm trying to get ripped quickly (I don't mind a little muscle loss).

2) During the "Carb up" ...you're telling me it's better to eat things like Burger King? What's so bad about the cereal ...(High GI carbs) ...and eventually going to low GI carbs?

3) If my primary goal is to lose fat, then, would it be out of the question to "Carb up" every other week? Or, would I end up losing too much muscle (I'll sacrifice a LITTLE, not too much).

4) Lastly, should I take Vanadyl Sulfate during my "Carb up" days...Dan Duchaine suggests it, Atkins doesn't, Pasquale doesn't either.

Thanks a lot for the help...

1) if you dont mind muscle loss then workout however you want. this program was designed to keep all muscle and gain even a tiny bit.

2) i already answered this due to sugar crashes and insulin highs and lows due to no fat (which slows digestion) carb ups...plus you feel a lot fuller when eating fat along with the carbs..so instead of eating 5000 calories of no fat carbs and still being hungry, why not eat 200 calories of carbs plus fat so fat gain is not a problem. See, what happens is eating high carbs with no fat PLUS eating all those extra calories (due to never feeling full) will store fat during your carb ups more so than eating some fat and lesser carbs because of the lower insulin release.

3) Same answer as #1...if you dont mind muscle loss, do whatever you want.

4) Alpha Lipoic Acid is the ONLY supplement (except if you want to use insulin) that should be used during carbs ups do enhance glycogen storage..the vanadyle sulfate and chromium shit turned out to suck and not work very welll (only in extreme high dosages that arent even worth the money it costs). Creatine is another option during carb ups to store more water inside the muscle cells.
 
kakdiesel...excellent info.

Kakdiesel,
I did this exact diet 2 summers ago, and I went from 210 down to 192. My strength remained the same and I was very happy out how ripped I got. I was putting on pants that I hadn't worn since high school, and I'm 30 years old. BUT, MY CO-WORKERS/FRIENDS WERE ALL SAYING THAT I WAS GETTING TOO SMALL! I must have lost quite a bit of muscle according to the comments that were being made. I know that there were days that I would only have 900 to 1100 calories just because I didn't feel like eating that much. (those were the no carb days). I feel like I wasn't consistant enough with my 210 grams of protein per day which caused me to lose so much muscle.
When I started I was 210lbs at about 13-16% body fat. I ended up about 192 with probably 6-8% body fat. Now I'm about 213 at around 10% body fat. I want to try this diet again for a short time period, around 6 weeks. I know how fast it works so with my body right now, 6 weeks will be plenty.
Can you give me some simple examples of food you would eat on the no card days? Just a one or 2 day example would be great and greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.
jepjep
 
Last edited:
And also, how long does it take for the body to realize there is no more carbs, and to use fat for energy.
 
Typically, if your diet is in order, (being as close to 0 carbs and getting lots of saturated fats) about 2 days. You can always use "Ketostix" to check and make sure that you're in ketosis.
 
MASSIVEmorris said:
Typically, if your diet is in order, (being as close to 0 carbs and getting lots of saturated fats) about 2 days. You can always use "Ketostix" to check and make sure that you're in ketosis.

And how long should one go about doing this keto plan.... I heard no more than 2 weeks due to possible kidney probs...
 
Personally, I plan on using it for 6-8 weeks. About your kidneys, I suggest you follow this link and read up on it.

http://www.ast-ss.com/dev/qa_search/full_text.asp?ID=1331

In it, it states that: "there is no published evidence that a high protein diet produces any negative effect on metabolism in bodybuilders or any other type of athletes."

There has been a study on it and this is what the conclusion was...basically ... : "The combination of high protein intake and intense exercise didn't appear to impair any aspect of kidney function either."

Hope this helps.
 
Re: kakdiesel...excellent info.

jepjep said:
Kakdiesel,
I did this exact diet 2 summers ago, and I went from 210 down to 192. My strength remained the same and I was very happy out how ripped I got. I was putting on pants that I hadn't worn since high school, and I'm 30 years old. BUT, MY CO-WORKERS/FRIENDS WERE ALL SAYING THAT I WAS GETTING TOO SMALL! I must have lost quite a bit of muscle according to the comments that were being made. I know that there were days that I would only have 900 to 1100 calories just because I didn't feel like eating that much. (those were the no carb days). I feel like I wasn't consistant enough with my 210 grams of protein per day which caused me to lose so much muscle.
When I started I was 210lbs at about 13-16% body fat. I ended up about 192 with probably 6-8% body fat. Now I'm about 213 at around 10% body fat. I want to try this diet again for a short time period, around 6 weeks. I know how fast it works so with my body right now, 6 weeks will be plenty.
Can you give me some simple examples of food you would eat on the no card days? Just a one or 2 day example would be great and greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.
jepjep

My favorite meal was a fatty hamburger patty, cheddar cheese slice melted on top, with slices of bacon on top of that and mustard..high in fat, high in protein, 0 carbs..oh and high in calories...

another one was pepperoni, mozarella cheese, and sausage patties stacked on top of one another...tasted like toppings on a pizza....very good as well..

and if you wanna go the"healthy" route, you could just eat chicken breats, tuna, and supplement with 2-3 tablespoons of flax seed oil at each meal..

i hope this helps..

kak
 
Thanks kakdiesel

Those first two sound excellent. I would have bacon and eggs for breakfast or eggs and sausage every morning, when I did it last time. The guys at work were thinking I was crazy trying to get ripped eating that shit, but they saw it with their own eyes and changed their thinking.

Thanks again for the great ideas. I want to eat those right now.

jepjep
 
UPDATE

well week 2 is over i did a small carb up last week w/out ala and left ketosis imidiately, yesterday post workout i took 500 mg ala then i started the refeed. i had half a roll of sweet tarts, 2 slices of pizza, 2 balance bars 1 yogurt , a whey shake w/1%milk and im still in puple ketosis. thats well over 100 g carbs.

to the ala gods---------------->:garza:


btw i used 500 mg 15 min b4 each of those meals. that was yesterday im still in ketosis. oh and the vasularity is insane!!
 
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KAK-

what can i supplement for mood improvement throught the week?
im good till about wedsday when i start being a mean mofo:mad: im guessing the seritonin runs out by then thus causeing a crash .
I work in a bank there's no room for attitude, i might take someones loot and hit south america...lol j/k...hehheheh

how high can i run 5-htp doses per mg
 
well for mood, ephedrine was enough for me (ephedrine is a DISTANT DISTANT cousin of cocaine :) )

anyways, 5 HPT isnt something im very familiar with...

I understand you can be irritable and stuff with dieting alone, stack NO carbs on top of that, lethargy, and no carbohydrate metabolism for seratonin, but I guess its a mental thing..you know, like, how some people FORCE or WILL themselves into a good mood for the sake of their situation..

I think will power should be enough, but if you wanna go the supplement route or drug route, GHB does wonders LOL :)

Just kidding..dont do G..its not good for you..

I'm sorry Georgie, but this is where I'm stumped..i have no clue what to suggest..sorry brotha:confused:
 
update

i have ephedrine hcl tabs that are working miracles now, im using 150 mg 5-htp in the morning then two hours later drop 50 mg of the hcl and im good to go.
i also used nyc stack for a week and it didnt stimulate me enough to get by, maybe ill use nyc w/ a lil bit of ephedrine hcl hehehe.


just an update bro's
 
update...

starting to cut up really good this week, starting to include 15 min of hit cardio after wieghts and on my days off i do it in the morning along with yohimburn im starting to notice a real difference in my chest and lower abs area..
 
Awesome thread; the answer to all my questions. I have been on Keto for 4 days. Never used it before and tried to put it together using various posts, until I found this one...

1) What about sugar? should I stay away from it during the week AND carb-up?
2) Do I need to keep the same meal frequency on carb-up days (6 meals)?
3) I find it hard to avoid hidden carbs; for example, Cheddar Cheese, Beef Jerky and nuts all contain carbs, which leads me to intake about 25 gms of carbs a day.
4) I can't eat my minimal calorie intake without going way above the amounts of protein, I need 115 gms of Protein, and consume about 200. Is it ok to consume twice as much prot. as needed?

Also,my keto test shows a moderate to large amount of ketones, do I need purple to show "true ketosis fat burning state".

Thanks, keep up the good posts!
 
1) What about sugar? should I stay away from it during the week AND carb-up?

Certainly NONE durint the week.

During the carb=up it should be ok, but its best to keep high GI items towarsd the earliest parts of the carb up, and to have fewer of them on like the 2nd day of carb-up.

2) Do I need to keep the same meal frequency on carb-up days (6 meals)?

Studies have shown little change in the effectiveness of the carb up whther the carbs were ingested in like 3 big meals or 6 smaller ones, but given the shear amount of carbs that we are taliing about, more frequent meals may be a better choice.

3) I find it hard to avoid hidden carbs; for example, Cheddar Cheese, Beef Jerky and nuts all contain carbs, which leads me to intake about 25 gms of carbs a day.

And your question?

Well, most people will go intp ketosis at 20 and 25 gns, Hidden carbs are the tough ones. Most times people are told "zero" becuase even when most people THINK zero, there are still hidden carbs. Coffee has like 1 gm, diet soda has one, an egg has one, etc. They do add up.

If people start to think they canb have SOME carbs, then these are typically added to the "hidden" ones and it ends up keepint them out of ketosis!

4) I can't eat my minimal calorie intake without going way above the amounts of protein, I need 115 gms of Protein, and consume about 200. Is it ok to consume twice as much prot. as needed?

Well, here is the problem.

To really do a CKD correctly you do want low low carbs during the week and you still want a certain amount of protein to keep lean mass. You also do NOT want to drop calories TOO low or that will create problems as well. So, there is a reason that a certain amount of protein abnd fat is recommended.

Now many guys would think "ok, but hey, if I cant do any carbs, and need a minimal amount of protein (with some fat) to make up a certain number of calories, then what if I eat MORE protein and maybe LESS fat!

Here is the problem with that.

TOO MUCH protein CAN knock you out of ketosis!

Even if you eat NO carbs at ALL, the body still has the capacity to get some glucose out of protein (maybe its glycogen, but bear with me .... I do think its glucose). So you do want to eat some protein (isntead of 100% fat) so that you hopefully minimize the amount oif protein which the body will produce by vbreaking down its own lean mass.

But if you eat TOO MUCH protein then yoru boidy may actually be able to make too much glucoise from it, and this can actually knock you out of, or prvenet you from going into, ketosis.

So,....

whenthey say X amount if protein, and Y amount of fat (and yes, some non-zero amount of carbs) then they MEAN it.

Now there is probably some leeway in this, meaning if the optimal CKD equations point to 125 gms of protein and you do 150, I would not worry too much (as long as you balance it out by changing the amount of fat you ingest so that total calories is near correct).

But I would not like double the amount if protein or anything like that.


Pardon me, but I just got done re-reading Lyle's Keto diet book again. LOL And my typing sucks ass, sorry.
 
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Karma Mr Riker :gift:, thanks.
I guess it's just a matter of getting used to consistently counting carb intake. Today is the 5th day and I have been on moderate ketosis for the past 3 and have lost 2.5 pounds. The fat is melting, getting cut.

Question: I have ordered MBX (Adipo's substitute) and MM4, have any idea if I shoud stack them together or alternate?
Thanks!
 
dammit riker how come you get all the credit??? LOL j/k

yeah i read a lot with Dipasquale's, Duchaine, and McDonald's research..thats what i based my article on along with my personal experiences..

anyways, what is MM4 cassablanc??

is it another thermo? if not, do not..stacking thermo's is dangerous..just alternate every two weeks with each supplement.
 
Diesel, your credit doesn't need mentioning. Thanks for all the help guys, this board rocks.

I found info on MM4 and Adipo combined, it states "Use MM4 as a stand-alone weight loss product or in conjunction with Adipokinetix or Guggulbolic for an increased synergistic effect. " So a safe guess would be to say yes.

Serving Size: 1-2 capsules

Coleonol/Forskoliin 20 mg (from 100mg Coleus Forskohlii Leaf Extract)
Synephrine 5 mg
Bergenin 100 mg
Gingerols & Shogaols 10 mg
(from 50mg Ginger Root Extract)
Other Ingredients:
Microcrystalline Cellulose, Gelatin, Yellow #5, Red #40, Titanium Dioxide.


Thanks Sir.
 
its gonna be over soon so

what would you do in terms of training intensityvolume, i been following this regimen to the TEE?
 
i dont understand your question Georgie:confused:

oh and massive morris, i dont like TKD's..i think they are a waste of time..if you wanna know details email me or PM me
 
sorry bout that

i been weight training with my max sets first then going down in weight, would it be better to switch it around to trying to max out every time and increase weghts every set?
 
Re: sorry bout that

georgie24 said:
i been weight training with my max sets first then going down in weight, would it be better to switch it around to trying to max out every time and increase weghts every set?

this is for my new plan coming up
 
Kakdiesel said:
In Case You Missed It

So here’s how it breaks down during the week: Sunday through Friday afternoon , you will follow the low carb diet outlined above. Eat fat and protein all day everyday except on workout days because after workouts, you will need to consume strictly just protein—no fat or carbs.

.

I always taught that after workouts you should consume a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein. (specially simple cabrs) ???
 
Re: Re: My old CKD article I wrote for George24....

Juicy-R6 said:


I always taught that after workouts you should consume a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein. (specially simple cabrs) ???

um...we're trying to stay in ketosis here brotha...meaning no carbs..what the hell are you talking about????
 
LET ME TELL YOU GUYS THIS ARTICLE IS ONE OF THE BEST READ'S THAT IVE EVER READ.

i totally changed my body compisition with these methods, i cant wait to hit the winny,tren, eq post diet:p
 
I have a few questions........

1) Why are the protein grams so low? I mean if someone has a lean body mass of approx 150, then is 150g's of proetin really enoguh?

2) When do you recommend taking the creatine? Post work out?

3) Does ala play any role in the 5 days of no carb? Or should it just be used in the 24-30 hrs of carb up?

4) What if i consume <15-20g's of carbs in the 5 days of zero carb, will this ruin everything.. cause i'll be eating a few things that have 1 or 2 grams of carbs in them, and through out the day it will add to <20g's.........
 
by Kakdiesel

Thanks for the posts and info I saved all of it to my hard drive,

I am not in the gym right now, having some internal bleeding, so just laying low until my blood work and surgery are complete,

in the intermin I have been on

a
Akins diet and will not in the gym still losing fat,

Thanks for your input, I should be back in the gym with in two weeks. Was on liquidex 1mg EOD but got a very bad rash, so holding it until I can do a cycle.
 
George can you share some of your meals? Also if you can answer any of my above questions......

later
 
aky said:
George can you share some of your meals? Also if you can answer any of my above questions......

later

my bad aky..i havent been back to the boards in a few days..

here are some of my favorites.

egg, bacon,sausage cheese stacked on top of one another. sort of like a breakfast biscuit without the bicsuit

pepperoni, sausage, and mozarella cheese..pizza toppings without the pizza sauce or crust

hamburger beef, bacon, cheddar cheese...

tuna and mayonaise

devilled eggs

steak

It doesnt really vary much than that..during dieting i'm too lazy to care or worry about much variety..as long as i'm shedding fat :)

hope this helps

kak
 
kak;

i gotta few questions for ya!

1) is it ok to drink diet cola or crystal light during a ckd diet?

2) im 265lbs, and 25% bf...my calcualtions tell me that i should take in 3180 cals/day (239g/pro, 238g/fat) is this correct, because if it is...thats alot of freakin food!

3) is it ok to have ceasar salad?

4)during the carb up days.....is alcohol permitted? Like a few beers etc...

5) during the carb up phase, can i just eat whatever just as long as im taking in alot of carbs? or should i be going low fat?

6) i play racquetball like everyday for about an hour....is that going to affect me being in ketosis or is that just going to make me lose a bit of muscle?

7) other than MV's/MM's, metamusil, ala, eca, protein powder....what other supplements would you recommend?

8) im going to do this diet for approx 6 weeks....if i followed this diet to a tee and assuming all goes well.....foreseably how much weight could i lose???

any info would be greatly appreciated!! Peace!
 
Great Post Kak I have been looking for this information! Karma To You Bro! I do have a few questions though...

1. Do you recommend this diet on or off cycle or does it not matter?

2. Can you effectively gain LBM while on this diet if you were on cycle?

THANKS A MILLION! KARMA! Lata....
 
aky said:
I have a few questions........

1) Why are the protein grams so low? I mean if someone has a lean body mass of approx 150, then is 150g's of proetin really enoguh?

2) When do you recommend taking the creatine? Post work out?

3) Does ala play any role in the 5 days of no carb? Or should it just be used in the 24-30 hrs of carb up?

4) What if i consume <15-20g's of carbs in the 5 days of zero carb, will this ruin everything.. cause i'll be eating a few things that have 1 or 2 grams of carbs in them, and through out the day it will add to <20g's.........

KAK, Can you answer the above questions if you have time... thanks
 
although im not kak..

let me give you a few samples of what i been living off for the last 8 weeks

endless supplies of diet coke and crystal light
cheese
peperoni
chopped steak
guacamole
eas low carb bar
atkins bar
chicken breast chopped in mayo


i followed his article to the tee and my results are NOTHING less thean spectacular.
i managed to re-compose my body compisition while adding mass. how? i dont really know i followed his paln to the letter.
my shoulders are lil bit bigger as are my traps.
 
ok heres my take..

i didnt/dont start counting everysingle carb gram i took in. i stayed/stay very moderate when i eat carbs for those 1.5 days. neither did i think of it as a feast or some shit, i keep/kept my goal in the back of my mind at all times!!
so what did george eat during his "freedom time"??
1-2 slices of pizza after my workout. then if im still hungry later on that night i would have some coke-a cola or crystal light with my mexican pizza(homemade w/out the crust)

next day...
i have all day to binge eat on carbs right? WRONG remember your goals and let that be your guide to how you choose to eat your "alowed carbs"
i sometimes skipped the reward meals at the end of the week and didnt miss'em either.
i made a promise to myself in the begining of the diet that i will not rely on food/carbs to make me happy or satisfied...the rest is history....................


kak, i would of never thought i would give this keto shit another go ever in my life. now im teaching it lol

thank you

p.s barnidge-
if your serious about giving this a go ill give you my other e-mail addy and you can use that to reach me anytime.
 
barnidge said:
Kak,

When doing the half day refeed on friday should we just take half the number of carbs that you suggest? ie. 5xkg

thanks

total amount of grams of carbs should be spread OUT all of friday and saturday..the total after the 36 hour carb up is all that matters..you could split it up like half on friday half on saturday but i just figure as much to eat about 1/4 or a 1/3 on friday (since its really only half a day) and the other 3/4 to 2/3 on saturday so you can feast all day
 
Ok. Thanks. So, how do how much do I eat on the first half friday? Is it just protein?

Georgie, I have been following this diet for a week and am doing the refeed tomorrow. I cannot wait.
 
barnidge said:
Ok. Thanks. So, how do how much do I eat on the first half friday? Is it just protein?

Georgie, I have been following this diet for a week and am doing the refeed tomorrow. I cannot wait.


first half of the day?

yes protein and fat's for the first portion of the day then after work i would hit the gym around 730 or so. then after the workout take .5 grams of ala then hit some carbs then hit ala at .5 grams intervals very 2-3 hours there on out till midday sunday
 
Thanks Georgie. I think my question was phrased in a confusing manner. What I am trying to determine is the amount of calories that should be consumed on friday and saturday as I do not want to go over this amount. So what I have read so far. I should eat around half of my calories on friday in the form of protein/fat and the other half mainly carbs with some protein. And on Saturday just eat carbs with a little protein(lean body weight amt). Is this correct?
 
Good job Georgie. Im thinking of taking in 3000-3500 calories on friday and saturday since im bigger at 215.

Sound okay?

What do you plan on eating tomorrow and saturday?
 
Guys guys..be CAREFUL on the carb up..for ultimate fat loss on a CKD if you do carb ups once a week…just stick to a 12 hour carb up and do NOT go nuts…when I 1st did bodyopus then CKD’s back in 1996 I would carb up with like 7-800gms of carbs..HUGE mistake….keep it under 400gms with some(not a lot) fat added to each meal to control the spike and you will be good…do this on a Saturday after a morning full body high rep depletion workout and stop the carbs by 8pm or so and hit cardio sun morn, you should be in ketosis sometime on Monday.
 
barnidge said:
Good job Georgie. Im thinking of taking in 3000-3500 calories on friday and saturday since im bigger at 215.

Sound okay?

What do you plan on eating tomorrow and saturday?

hhmm i usually get a number 1 at dutchess or a couple slices of pizza friday night and on saturday im on my bike all day so i usually get food where ever we stop and chill at. eg chicken sandwitch w/fries or subway w/ some ptato chips(baked) .shit like that bro

just keep it MODERATE and you can eat what ever you want, last week we where in new york by this bridge and i knew it was a long ride back so i grabbed a few chocoalet chip cookies w/ a diet coke and that held me over till i got in town:)
 
barnidge said:
Any replies to NY Muscles comment?


Its all pretty easy to prove… carb up like a mofo one weekend..then see that it takes you up until the next weekends carb up to FINALLY drop the water/fat from the previous carb up and the more you do that the more you see it’s a vicious cycle and your fat loss stops….or try my method…12 hour carb up, under 400gms and then back to keto foods…you will lose the bloat (if ANY) by mon morn.
 
barnidge said:
Any replies to NY Muscles comment?

yea like ny muscle said DONT GO NUTS on the carb up and you will be fine.
i run it 1.5 days i dont eat as much but i NEVER leave ketosis anyway.
 
Karma for Georgie and Kak

btw, since i have 175 lean pounds should I consume just over 700 grams of carbs over the 1.5 days?
 
barnidge said:
Karma for Georgie and Kak

btw, since i have 175 lean pounds should I consume just over 700 grams of carbs over the 1.5 days?

try it with LOW GI carbs..

when i hit the sugary drinks ill bloat to no return witch leads to that viscious cycle of weight gain and depression from that weight gain.


be careful when you choose your carbs!!


p.s i think 700 is alot

how many weeks you shooting for barn?
 
I was going to try to run it through at least mid-august when I return to college. What figure would you put for the carbs if you think 700 is a little high?
 
I have a question for all of you (well, those of you who are following a CKD) - Why? Why not just go with a "TKD". I feel that this would promote a greater amount of fat-loss as more time is spent in ketosis. Also, you don't have to bother with those stupid carb-up's. Yes, they are fun...but, they can spin out of control and you have to worry about fat spilling over etc. etc. etc. Hell, diets aren't suppose to be fun. I will admit that I am pretty anti-CKD and pro TKD...at this point. I will also confess that when I did attempt a CKD I almost always fucked up while carbing up (I ate way too many carbs...and fat...it ended up looking like a cheat day). I just can't figure out why the TKD is not as popular as the CKD. Is it because it doesn't offer the freedom of the CKD, (i.e. the carb up's on the weekend) while the TKD is limited to just pre-workout carbs (I AM GETTING FUCKING TIRED OF SWEET TARTS :mad: ). Or, is it because you are stronger on a CKD? I can tell you that those pre-workout carbs don't do SHIT. However, I'm not in this for strength ...I just want to get ripped (don't we all). Well, that's my 2...maybe 3 cents.
 
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