My customized HRT therapy

[biggerthanu450]

I think some guys in there late 20s to mid 30s have good reason to consider HRT... if your test levels run consistantly in the low end of normal.
I have described my own HRT therapy to get comments or recommendations from others.
Background: 28yrs old, plan to adopt 2 children, 240lbs, 5-6% bodyfat. About 12 low dose, short cycles in the last 5-6 years.
It does not take much test to boost your endogenous test levels into the normal or high end of normal range. You have to experiemnt with personalized protocols that optimize your physiological and psychological state. The only detrimental effects of keeping your test level in the high/normal range is low HDL, higher than normal estrogen and DHT. To offset these potential side effects you should do regular cardiovascular activity, eat a clean diet consisting of lean meats (fish) and vegetables, and you may want to use finasteride (proscar) or saw palmetto to protect the prostate. I use a very low dose of an aromatase inhibitor (femara) because I am prone to gyno. I would suggest starting at a low dose for the first month or 2, evaluate how you feel and get bloodwork to see where your test level is. Androgel is "natural" test and works fine, but i have found 100mg of enanthate every 5 days to be optimal. One the day after my injection my test measures slightly over normal, but on the 5th day my level drops to about 600-700 (normal). You may respond different, but you sound strikingly similar to me. I also supplement with vitamin C, E, ALA, NAC, ZMA, MSM, avena sativa, and green tea extract. This may sound expensive, but the combined use of ALL this is $4-5/day....the cost of a cup of starbuck's coffee. Although I spent many hours shopping to get the best prices on all my stuff.
My own protocol is constantly evolving, but this is "optimal" for me.

 

[Diabolical]

Sounds like you have been doing your homework on the subject of HRT...

100mg every 5 days sounds like a good dose.
While being way above average natural test production, it is still not a high dose, and SHOULDNT cause any adverse health problems.

Let me know how you like it,
-Dr. D

 

[Diabolical]

BTW, adoption is great bro....

My brother also adopted 2 kids and claims it is the smartest decision he has ever made.

Although, they are little bastards from time to time....

-Dr. D

 

[Big_Nims]

Just curious, while on HRT would you still be able to make gains in mass and strength? Do you ever come off of HRT or is it pretty much for the rest of your life?

 

[Sigmund Roid]

do you take clomid when you are off the test?

 

[biggerthanu450]

To answer the 2 previous questions:
1) Yes, I continue to make gains while on HRT. I may do a short and light cycle of anavar or deca, or sometimes fina (2X/yr), and when I come off the cycle I continue to make gains as long as my diet and training are consistent. Personally, I do not want to get any bigger. I am focusing on bringing up my weak points and gaining strength while maitaining a lean 235-240.

2) I don't use clomid. I have no noticeable testicular atrophy, this may be because my test dosage is so low. I've never had testicular atrophy on a cycle, but that may be because my dosages were always low. I believe in using the minimum effective dosage to avoid side effects; this also avoids the massive shutdown some users have. I use HRT continously to keep my test level at the optimum physiological range. This prtocol has made me feel and look better than ever, and my bloodwork indicates that my health is enhanced (eg. improved lipid profile)

 

[Big_Nims]

One more question bro, after you do a cycle, and you gain weight say 10 pounds, do you have to increase your HRT dosage to keep those 10 pounds or just keep it the same?

 

[biggerthanu450]

I forgot to mention that while experimenting to find the optimum test dosage I tried using 200mg once a week. After following this treatment my test levels were 2235 (range 300-1000) 2 days after doing a 200mg shot of Tornel enanthate. My salivary estrogen level measured 2.8 (range: 0.5-1.5), even while using a low dose of femara.
I have read that several members on this board are using dosages this high for HRT, which may prove to have health consequences in the long term.

 

[Triple J]

Question - do you use human grade test, and could you tell any difference between going to human grade as oppossed to vet grade?

My concern about HRT using TE or TC is stabilizing blood levels. Even with a shot every five days, by my calculations you still have about a 30% fluctuation in blood levels. I think this is where androgel has potential advantages. Considering your low dose, have you considered androgel or something similar via compounding?

 

[biggerthanu450]

I tend to guage my progress by my strength gains. For instance. before my last cycle my incline bench was 405 x 3, it was 405 x 5 at the end of the cycle, and 2 months after my cycle I am getting 405 x 5 (with better form). My weight may drop a little, but stays withing 5 pounds of my "cycle" weight.
I take small steps, but they add up over time. I remember doing 225 for the same amount of reps on incline....then I did 235....a year later I was doing 275....a year later I was doing 315...etc. It's all about being consistent, and keeping a training journal to chart your progress.

 

[biggerthanu450]

I use Tornel (vet grade) test. Androgel kept my blood levels stable, but I I noticed my hair started thinning with androgel (5-alpha reductase is high in skin). I would use finasteride if you are prone to hair loss. I sweat alot, so I was concerned about the androgel washing off me, or getting on my neices or nephews. I started using finasteride when switching to injectable test, and i have no hair loss (minimal), and fairly stable test levels with my protocol.

 

[StephenDFW]

HRT & femara ?

I was wondering how often and how much femara you are using.

When I use 1.25mg ED my libido takes a dive.

Thanks

 

[T Bone]

Yes, this is a good thread. I am 34 and looking for a good endocrineologist. (sp?) Hey biggerthanu, do you know of a good one in the Northeast?

T Bone

 

[Stillgoing]

Bump. Thanks for posting this biggerthanu. Your contributions on this subject have been invaluable to me.

I'm considering HRT for a number of reasons.

Background:

- 36yrs old,
- Training for 18yrs, numerous low dose cycles, plenty of time off (no "abuse" IMO but plenty of "use" over the years)
- I have had my kids,
- I had a vasectomy,
- Natural test tops out at 400 (It took me 6 months and a couple hcg/nolv/clomid runs after a VERY low dose cycle to get back to this level). I don't know what my levels were when I was younger, never got them tested (mistake).

Symptoms:

- I can no longer maintain a low body fat along with decent size naturally. When I go off I accumulate fat very easily, when on I can get lean quickly and stay lean. This never used to be the case. While I have done a good number of cycles in my day, I've been working out for 18yrs and when I'm cycling, time off has always been almost double time on. Plus I used very low dosages. Additionally, I have had long periods of being clean, including one period of almost 5yrs. So, I know what its like to be natural, and, I used to look good, stay reasonably lean and continue to make gains naturally.

- I now lose all cycle gains when I go off despite clomid, HCG, etc. and crash hard. In fact, I think I now sink below where I was when I started the cycle. Then I spend the next six months struggling to get back to the starting point. This never used to happen. (And, its not like I'm way over my natural potential, at 6'2 250, I've been this size or bigger since I was 22yrs old)

- When off I feel like shit, constantly getting sick, fatique, etc

- Sexual performance - no comparison off vs. on. I continue to have a sex drive, but, no urgency associated with it or energy to "go after it" when the thought crosses my mind. When off I have much less sensation but also much less stamina (I can't figure this one out, my current thought is on low test your body just wants to stop putting forth the energy to keep going, so, it "solves" the problem by "releasing"). Very strange.

- Joint & bone aches when off, not when on. I feel like an old man when off, and when on I feel like I'm 20. I should do a self-analysis of how many joints & bones creak and hurt when I get out of bed in the morning and how long I can go throughout the day before collapsing on the couch at night on vs. off. Believe it or not, there is a big difference. As an analogy, if you think of your body as a machine, with higher test levels my machine seems to hum, with lower test levels it sputters and stalls. And, if this is true, and my body is actually functioning better at higher levels, then consider that your heart is the largest muscle in your body, not giving it the fuel it needs for decades must have a detrimental effect on it as it atrophies (just my current thought - I have no medical knowledge whatsoever, but, it sure seems to make sense - see link below for much more info).

The bottom line for me is: something is different than it used to be, very different. I have come to the conclusion that either the vasectomy had something to do with it (bros who have had vasectomy's and are having test problems believe this, those that haven't or in the medical community do not), or, I'm just aging and my levels are just dropping as a result (or a combination of both). So, its a lifestyle decision. I certainly can live the way I am now (although I can't keep cycling, the ups then downs are too much, the low is too low), the question is, do I want to?

Anyone interested in this subject should check out this link. Great information on the subject. Its long, but, concise and comprehensive on the reasons to consider HRT, and includes protocols for HRT. BTW, Ulter provided me with this info, thanks again Ulter.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html

Finally, regarding the delivery method of the exo test for HRT. Your options are obviously gel (andro or natural gel from a compounding pharmacy), inject or patch (I don't know anything about these). I have received differing opinions on which is "better". The issues seem to be, 1- which keeps your blood levels most stable, 2- which will the body consider to be more "natural" thus not incurring some side effect with long-term use, and, 3- which is most cost effective & convenient to implement. Responses that I have recieved from very knowledgable bros (including doctors) are divided. Some think injects result in more stable values, some say gel. Some say the natural gel from a compounding pharmacy is best because its "natural" (common thought with women's HRT) and long-term use of esterfied test might not be good, others say injects keep more stable values and are more convenient. With cost, injects will be the cheapest. I just picked up a month of androgel, it cost $175 before insurance. $175 would last you almost a year with injects.

This information is obviously very personal to me. I am sharing it in the hopes that it might help someone else going through this stuff and might stimulate some good idea exchange. Any bros that want to discuss thier situation or want to know more about mine PM me. Clearly, the more info the better when considering a life-long decision.

 

[biggerthanu450]

I try to keep my femara dose as low as possible to prevent my estrogen from getting too low. I use 1.25mg on the day of my test injection, then another 1.25mg 2 days after my injection.
Stillgoing, Thanks for the info from the LEF.org
That article brings up a good point. I think using a combination of supplements can increase your free test, and may allow you to lower you HRT test dosage a bit. I am experimenting to see if this is truly the case. I have noticed a slight elevation of free test levels after using avena sativa for 6 days, but I plan to test my levels again after being on it for 6 weeks.

 

[Stillgoing]

Bump....

 

[easy]

Stillgoing, you are right on about the vasectomy. I have a thread about my issues getting on HRT but your info is 100% imo. I'm going back to a different Endo this Wed to get on HRT. THx for looking out bro.

 

[Stillgoing]

bump

 

[Nelson Montana]

It should be mentioned that HRT should not be considered by anyone under 40 unless the have an existing defficeincy -- which is too often the case with juicers. Handing your balls over to an endrochronologist (literally) just to have "optimum" T levels isn't the wisest choice for a young man, but for guys over 40 it's pretty much a no-brainer.

I agree with biggerthanu with just about everything except the femmera. At 100 mgs every 5 days most people will experience virtually no aromatization -- nothing that a 25 mg proviron pill ever now and then couldn't control. Then again, his femera dosage is conservative, which is smart.

One other thing: A lot of people think that if they raise the T, they'll improve lbido, but it doesn't work that way. There's a point where too much T will supress libido. Also, the loss of size of the testicles is barely noticable at 100mgs every 5 days. Contrary to popular belief, the HPTA does NOT "shut down" T production! Any dosage will supress and superphysiological dosages may shut it off, but in most cases you'll still produce some T on your own. That's what makes the proper dosage so imperative. Too much is as bad as too little.

 

[Stillgoing]

It should be mentioned that HRT should not be considered by anyone under 40 unless the have an existing defficeincy -- which is too often the case with juicers. Handing your balls over to an endrochronologist (literally) just to have "optimum" T levels isn't the wisest choice for a young man, but for guys over 40 it's pretty much a no-brainer.

I agree with biggerthanu with just about everything except the femmera. At 100 mgs every 5 days most people will experience virtually no aromatization -- nothing that a 25 mg proviron pill ever now and then couldn't control. Then again, his femera dosage is conservative, which is smart.

One other thing: A lot of people think that if they raise the T, they'll improve lbido, but it doesn't work that way. There's a point where too much T will supress libido. Also, the loss of size of the testicles is barely noticable at 100mgs every 5 days. Contrary to popular belief, the HPTA does NOT "shut down" T production! Any dosage will supress and superphysiological dosages may shut it off, but in most cases you'll still produce some T on your own. That's what makes the proper dosage so imperative. Too much is as bad as too little.

Nelson, its great to see posts from you again. I'm glad your back.

 

[biggerthanu450]

Nelson, I agree with your statement:
"It should be mentioned that HRT should not be considered by anyone under 40 unless the have an existing defficeincy -- which is too often the case with juicers"
I also think that most people on this board would have low test levels if they checked, since it takes alot longer then people realize for natural test to come back to baseline...at least for me, and the juicers that actually get bloodwork done to see where their levels are at.
My baseline levels consistently stayed in the bottom of normal range. When i decided to use HRT the quality of life dramatically improved (eg. more mental and physical energy, increased libido, stronger, leaner...etc) My main concern with HRT was cardiovascular and prostate health, so that's why i am committed to eating super clean, doing regular cardio, taking finasteride, and getting frequent bloodwork. I also believe in using a broad range of antioxidants.
As far as using femara, I found that 100mg of test increases my estrogen to a level that is above normal. I experimented with a small dose of femara and found that it lowered my estrogen ~ 30 %, just enough to bring it into the normal range.
I totally agree with Nelson in regards to T levels. My libido hits the floor when my test levels measure out of normal range; that means either too high or too low.