Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Muhammad Ali

Becoming

Becoming

Meat Sandwich
Platinum
Does anyone think it is bullshit he claimed religion as his reason not to join up when he was drafted?

I am not saying that might not be a reason for some - but really, I call bullshit...

"I ain’t got no quarrel with them Vietcong…"

Peace lover my ass....

First - The famous pic of him standing over Sonny Liston - He doesn't look to peace-loving there...

Second - Boxing itself - you can't tell me you don't go in there trying to do harm to others...

I mean with quotes like "When you are as great as I am, it is hard to be humble" he seems to embody muslim ideals, right?

I mean why not just say "hey, I don't want to go" instead of some bullshit excuse....

Or why not sign on to cut hair or something?
 
Becoming said:
Does anyone think it is bullshit he claimed religion as his reason not to join up when he was drafted?
?
Click to expand...



yes


i think he is an awsome fighter

but i think he is a draft dodger who committed treason (dodging = treason)

and i think that is bullshit

just how clinton studied aboard so he didnt get drafted....

scammer motherfuckers
 
While I agree that his citing the reason as being religion was dubious at best, his real reasoning was completely sound. Call him a draft dodger if you want but in the environment of the time, why the hell should he go over there and kill Asians on behalf of America? Good for him.
 
Opposing your governments unjust and unnecesary war is not treason. It is your duty to the democracy of your country. If it wasn't for courageous, liberty minded individuals who dare to oppose their governments wars and refuse to take part of them your nation would soon succumb to be a fascist dictatorship.

Opposing your government's unjust wars and policies for the sake of democracy and your country's future is true patriotism.
 
havoc said:
The Sonny Liston comment and relating it to peace has no relevancy whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Boxing in its basic form is combat with another man... you can tell me you go in there not intending to do bodily harm... You can't tell me that every punch is intended only to win the fight and does not have the potential to kill...

Saying he objected on religious grounds is bullshit...


MAX 300 said:
Opposing your governments unjust and unnecesary war is not treason. It is your duty to the democracy of your country. If it wasn't for courageous, liberty minded individuals who dare to oppose their governments wars and refuse to take part of them your nation would soon succumb to be a fascist dictatorship.

Opposing your government's unjust wars and policies for the sake of democracy and your country's future is true patriotism.
Click to expand...
I never said I objected to him saying the war was bullshit... I DO disagree with him hiding behind his religions as an excuse...

Stand up and say what you think and don't act like a coward is all I ask... if you go to jail because of it - that is leadership and will inspire others and is a true courageous act....

saying I don't believe in it because of _____ that is bullshit and a cowards way out....
 
Well, I never liked Muhammed Ali joining the NOI anyway. So hiding behind his religion isn't something that I would justify either.

But if a man has a conviction that his government's war is wrong and unjust and he is willing to stand up for that conviction and refuse to go to war for his government then that is a choice that I applaud.

The Vietnam war was not about defending America or defending liberty or the safety of free people, it was about a political ideology and about furthering the influence and power of politicians. Much like the Iraq war now.
 
bluepeter said:
While I agree that his citing the reason as being religion was dubious at best, his real reasoning was completely sound. Call him a draft dodger if you want but in the environment of the time, why the hell should he go over there and kill Asians on behalf of America? Good for him.
Click to expand...
Exactly!!! Besides, they would've sent his butt to the front line!! I don't blame him!
 
MissJanet and Nature -

I hear what you are saying - I just don't know why he had to hide behind religion to do it...
 
Becoming said:
MissJanet and Nature -

I hear what you are saying - I just don't know why he had to hide behind religion to do it...
Click to expand...

Precisely because of the reaction of people like tiger. If he gets that reaction even today from the uninitiated, imagine what he got then. Even with the religion angle, many crucified him at the time. He lost the prime of his boxing life due to it. I hear what you are saying in terms of standing up and being counted for your true beliefs but to me, that's exactly what he was doing.
 
Becoming said:
MissJanet and Nature -

I hear what you are saying - I just don't know why he had to hide behind religion to do it...
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't simplify it and say he hid behind a particular religion. He hid behind a religious POLITICAL group, the Nation of Islam. They were opposed to the war. To those guys (much like the other muslim fundamentalists), politics and religion are closely related. Politics IS religion, and vice versa. So I don't think he said, "I'm a muslim and I choose to disobey the draft.". I think it was more like "I am a member of the Nation of Islam, and it is our policy to disobey the draft". Obviously I'm paraphrasing.

Or maybe it was some other reason like he didn't want to go and he used it as an excuse. I think it was either the former or a combination of both.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Or maybe it was some other reason like he didn't want to go and he used it as an excuse. I think it was either the former or a combination of both.
Click to expand...

that is all I am saying - it is bullshit to use religion as an excuse (even if it is a religious-political context)

just say you don't want to freaking go...
 
tiger88 said:
i think he is an awsome fighter

but i think he is a draft dodger who committed treason (dodging = treason)
Click to expand...

I agree, but...

He did his time in jail. He paid his debt.

Also, many years later, he remained a leader in the World Muslim community.

Also reading Kareem Abdul Jabbar's autobiography gave me some additional insight.

So I think he may have been sincere after all. Wrong, but sincere.
 
Last edited:
i went to HS with his twin daughters whose locker was right next to mine. he came to my graduation but he stayed in his limo. i have nothing else to add to this thread, sorry.
 
good post by longhorn...

LOL at smurffy..
 
I never was a big fan of Muhammed Ali (Cassius Clay). He seemed like the type of guy that would get on my nerves. His ego overshadowed his boxing talents ten-fold. That whole "mental game" thing he did with guys like George Foreman really was not necessary. Shouting, antagonizing the poor guy, downright badmouthing, seemed tired, and unsportsmanlike to me. I'm surprised nobody really said anything. I feel bad for the guy now that he is a vegatable, but he chose the career, and knew the risk. I am sure others may agree with me on him being somewhat of a loudmouth, and for that reason he really was not as big a deal as he once thought he was. People just get tired of that crap. Just my opinion on the guy.
 
By the way, I loved his original name. I had planned on naming my latest child Cassius Clay *insert last name here* had she been a boy.
 
As far as him dodging the "draft"....yeah that proves my point. He had an arrogance like he was better than others, and used his fame to try to escape something everyone lese had to go through. His excuses were bullshit, everyone could tell you that.... A fighter that fights, but has a problem with war because of his new religion? C'mon.....
But, not just him, I am sure a lot of people would use what they had to escape something like the draft,.....so he is not alone on that. All I am saying is that for a guy that had such a big mouth, it seemed that shut him up pretty quiet when his country called for him to serve like everybody else of the time. Now, what does that say for one's character? At least he could have been honest.
 
Even Elvis Presley served when he was called..... and he was 10x more famous, and a singer by profession, rather than an in shape boxer.
 
bodytemple75 said:
Now, what does that say for one's character? At least he could have been honest.
Click to expand...

Wasn't he? He was a conscientious objector and went to jail and gave up his livelihood as a result. He paid the price. How could he have known at the time he went to jail that he would ever step into the ring again? As it was, he missed a major part of his prime years.
 
bodytemple75 said:
All I am saying is that for a guy that had such a big mouth, it seemed that shut him up pretty quiet when his country called for him to serve like everybody else of the time. Now, what does that say for one's character? At least he could have been honest.
Click to expand...

Why should he have fought in a war against a government that treated him as a second class citizen, against the vietcong?

He is a legend.
 
You guys criticizing Ali make me laugh. Take a look in the Oval Office for fucks sake.

I must also say that much of the venom directed toward Ali then and seemingly even now was because he was/is successful and black.
 
bodytemple75 said:
As far as him dodging the "draft"....yeah that proves my point. He had an arrogance like he was better than others, and used his fame to try to escape something everyone lese had to go through. His excuses were bullshit, everyone could tell you that.... A fighter that fights, but has a problem with war because of his new religion? C'mon.....
But, not just him, I am sure a lot of people would use what they had to escape something like the draft,.....so he is not alone on that. All I am saying is that for a guy that had such a big mouth, it seemed that shut him up pretty quiet when his country called for him to serve like everybody else of the time. Now, what does that say for one's character? At least he could have been honest.
Click to expand...

another awesome post
 
Longhorn85 said:
Wasn't he? He was a conscientious objector and went to jail and gave up his livelihood as a result. He paid the price. How could he have known at the time he went to jail that he would ever step into the ring again? As it was, he missed a major part of his prime years.
Click to expand...


I think it is obvious why he chose a nice cush jailcell, and not a warfield defending his country. Now, keep in mind,...I never knew the man, but "I would say" in my opinion of the guy,... he was a lot of talk, good at boxing, but when a threat of war came knocking at his door, it must have scared him. Undersatndable. Jail we all can agree looks better than possible death anyday. The loudmouth of his is what brought negative attention his way, and made him such a specticle. (my ipinion again..)
 
bodytemple75 said:
As far as him dodging the "draft"....yeah that proves my point. He had an arrogance like he was better than others, and used his fame to try to escape something everyone lese had to go through. His excuses were bullshit, everyone could tell you that.... A fighter that fights, but has a problem with war because of his new religion? C'mon.....
But, not just him, I am sure a lot of people would use what they had to escape something like the draft,.....so he is not alone on that. All I am saying is that for a guy that had such a big mouth, it seemed that shut him up pretty quiet when his country called for him to serve like everybody else of the time. Now, what does that say for one's character? At least he could have been honest.
Click to expand...

How exactly did it 'shut him up'? He was out there yelling at anybody that would listen that he wasn't going to go over there and kill people for America. How many quotes could you go find from him right now with a quick search in regards to that period? He was in the public eye more than ever at this time because of the furor against him and he didn't back down one bit.
 
bodytemple75 said:
Even Elvis Presley served when he was called..... and he was 10x more famous, and a singer by profession, rather than an in shape boxer.
Click to expand...

LOL. Elvis wasn't drafted into a war situation. Apples to oranges.
 
bodytemple75 said:
The loudmouth of his is what brought negative attention his way, and made him such a specticle. (my ipinion again..)
Click to expand...

Well you are definitely not alone in your opinion. I am old enough to remember listening to his fights on the radio in the mid-70s. Almost everyone had a strong opinion about Ali, favorable or unfavorable, which has helped to make him arguably the world's most famous athlete ever.
 
bodytemple75 said:
A fighter that fights, but has a problem with war because of his new religion? C'mon.....
Click to expand...
Comparing a boxer by trade, to a war where people get maimed and killed, is not a very good comparison. Actually it's terrible.
 
Spanky11 said:
Why should he have fought in a war against a government that treated him as a second class citizen, against the vietcong?

He is a legend.
Click to expand...


I'm just guessing,...but probably because he is an American like everyone else, and is no beter or worse than anyone else he is fighting with. Americans, whether they are minority or caucasion having to all sumitt to the draft had to "all" put their lives in harms way. Why was his any better? It wasn't, just because of his boxing career.( Ex. look at Elvis Presley, even he went) Americans of any color/ creed thinking they were second class, and having a hissy-fit as to "why they were second class citizens," and reservations on why they thought they were exempt to fight, should have chosen Canada as their home, over and done. Problem solved. The draft suked, yes,...but everyone had to do it, and thinking you can make an excuse and dodge it like "jury duty" or something while guys are dying to keep you alive and free is just wrong and completely unAmerican. (my opnion again)
 
bodytemple75 said:
I think it is obvious why he chose a nice cush jailcell, and not a warfield defending his country. Now, keep in mind,...I never knew the man, but "I would say" in my opinion of the guy,... he was a lot of talk, good at boxing, but when a threat of war came knocking at his door, it must have scared him. Undersatndable. Jail we all can agree looks better than possible death anyday. The loudmouth of his is what brought negative attention his way, and made him such a specticle. (my ipinion again..)
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

are you related to curling at all?
 
bluepeter said:
How exactly did it 'shut him up'? He was out there yelling at anybody that would listen that he wasn't going to go over there and kill people for America. How many quotes could you go find from him right now with a quick search in regards to that period? He was in the public eye more than ever at this time because of the furor against him and he didn't back down one bit.
Click to expand...


I'm sure this makes him such a great American. The boys in the war hospitals who were drafted in their teens I'll bet would love to hear more on his contributions to America. Please....
 
The Nature Boy said:
LOL. Elvis wasn't drafted into a war situation. Apples to oranges.
Click to expand...


My whole point princess, ...was he (Elvis) went and enlisted. I apoligize for the screw up on specifics. He did enlish/ not drafted then.
;)
 
The Nature Boy said:
Comparing a boxer by trade, to a war where people get maimed and killed, is not a very good comparison. Actually it's terrible.
Click to expand...


The comparison is relevant, and still good. The man's profesion was professional boxing. We all know boxing to be somewhat violent. Do we agree? Physical contact? Yes.... Do you see any priests taking up the gloves? No. Point is, the excuse he gave...."in my opinion" was lame. Using "religion" as an excuse, especially given his profession,(a boxer) during a wartime draft was highly questionable, to say the least. I could see if he was a milkman, or a dentist, or tv repair guy, but don't tell me that a guy who makes a living out of beating the shit out of other athletes,..."literally" sometimes I'm sure, has much more of a problem than the average Joe with holding a gun and going to war for his country. C'mon now......That is just BS.


All this is my opinion. Thanks, as I repect but may not agree with others, as I respect them nonetheless.



(Apoligize for any spelling/ grammar beforehand, as I type fast sometimes)
 
MR Pink said:
don't know but mike tyson (in his best days) would kick his ass
Click to expand...

Doubt it. Tyson in his prime vs Ali in his prime? Tyson might not touch Ali's jaw and he'd get jabbed hundreds of times per round.
 
bodytemple75 said:
My whole point princess, ...was he (Elvis) went and enlisted. I apoligize for the screw up on specifics. He did enlish/ not drafted then.
;)
Click to expand...

LOL, he was DRAFTED. So your whole point is wrong I guess.
 
I seriously think Tyson would put Ali in the hospital. Completely level him. Prime or no prime, I think Tyson is just a better overall fighter - all the bullshit comming from Ali's mouth.
 
bodytemple75 said:
Using "religion" as an excuse, especially given his profession,(a boxer) during a wartime draft was highly questionable, to say the least. I could see if he was a milkman, or a dentist, or tv repair guy, but don't tell me that a guy who makes a living out of beating the shit out of other athletes,..."literally" sometimes I'm sure, has much more of a problem than the average Joe with holding a gun and going to war for his country. C'mon now......That is just BS.
Click to expand...

couldn't agree more...
 
The Nature Boy said:
LOL, he was DRAFTED. So your whole point is wrong I guess.
Click to expand...


Swetheart,....I'll leave it to you to sit home all day and do the specifics on history. Right now princess, my whole point was that Elvis S E R V E D in the military, Ali used every chance to avoid this. Now whether my information originally whether Presley was drafter or not was not the point. Have fun with that if you will ... Following me here Chief?...C'mon,...not that hard....The argument is that Ali was indeed required by a draft, and used every excuse not to go. My comparison was that a guy, and celeb like Presley did. If he did (Presley)or even if he wasn't drafted would not be any difference other than if he did ever enlist of his own free will says a lot more than Ali on his character, and chose to get drafted about the same. Prezley is just used as a comparison here of two guys in the limelight back in the day....


Hope I didn't go to fast for you sweetie.
:rolleyes:
 
bodytemple75 said:
I seriously think Tyson would put Ali in the hospital. Completely level him. Prime or no prime, I think Tyson is just a better overall fighter - all the bullshit comming from Ali's mouth.
Click to expand...

I was watching film on Tyson the other day on ESPN Classic. He wasn't even close to being the same boxer after he got out of of prison. Now I would have to say, the young Tyson that I saw IMO would have knocked Lennox Lewis out, and one could argue that Tyson may have been the best of all time. Extremely quick and according to his peers, one of the hardest punchers of all time, an unbeatable combination of quickness and power. Never has there been a boxer both that quick and powerful.
He was phenomenal.

Michael Spinks said he could only dream of having that much power and that the only boxer of his era with that much power was George Foreman. Spinks said that Tyson was so powerful that he could knock you out with an open glove with either hand.
 
I'm out,...I think my point was just and proved. If you didn't get it,...well you didn't get it. Everyone has their own take and opinion
Next.
 
Longhorn85 said:
Yeah, no one could ever accuse Mike Tyson of that.
Click to expand...


I think it's justified when you compare the two's records of knockouts and just overall performance in the ring. Arguably you may come up with this and that to dispute, but I still say Tyson was obviously better. Fighters in time will be better, stronger, quicker, and such as their opponents. This is obvious due to any number of reasons with improving technology.(supplements/training/genes)
 
bodytemple75 said:
Swetheart,....I'll leave it to you to sit home all day and do the specifics on history. Right now princess, my whole point was that Elvis S E R V E D in the military, Ali used every chance to avoid this. Now whether my information originally whether Presley was drafter or not was not the point. Have fun with that if you will ... Following me here Chief?...C'mon,...not that hard....The argument is that Ali was indeed required by a draft, and used every excuse not to go. My comparison was that a guy, and celeb like Presley did. If he did (Presley)or even if he wasn't drafted would not be any difference other than if he did ever enlist of his own free will says a lot more than Ali on his character, and chose to get drafted about the same. Prezley is just used as a comparison here of two guys in the limelight back in the day....


Hope I didn't go to fast for you sweetie.
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

WTF is wrong with you, are you some kinda homo? Sweetie? Princess? Is it that you have nothing to say or no point to make, so instead you use homosexual terms when replying to my posts?

I don't give a fuck if Elvis served in the military or not. Ali didn't want to serve, and if you don't like it, tough shit. As someone said, he paid his debt by going to jail. It's not like he got off scott free. Who knows what elvis would have done if it was his time to serve in Korea when we were getting our asses kicked.

And for future reference, when you want to debate someone on a topic, it's best to know the specifics of what you're talking about. Because not doing so makes you look like an idiot.
 
The Nature Boy said:
WTF is wrong with you, are you some kinda homo? Sweetie? Princess? Is it that you have nothing to say or no point to make, so instead you use homosexual terms when replying to my posts?

I don't give a fuck if Elvis served in the military or not. Ali didn't want to serve, and if you don't like it, tough shit. As someone said, he paid his debt by going to jail. It's not like he got off scott free. Who knows what elvis would have done if it was his time to serve in Korea when we were getting our asses kicked.

And for future reference, when you want to debate someone on a topic, it's best to know the specifics of what you're talking about. Because not doing so makes you look like an idiot.
Click to expand...




Wow. Now that is funny.... Wow! Now,...for a guy who was laughing so much at my posts poking fun at trival Bs, you seem a bit jolted and unnerved at a slight case of teasing. No, I m not gay, and yes I do happen to disagree with you. Maybe you should spend the rest of your time calming yourself down with the "Homo" talk and keep researching specifics that have no real significant meaning in the overall conversation. (Draft, and/or not was not the whole point w/ Elvis, it was his will to do so)Now,...you were grabbing for whather you could find, just to come out in the argument. Next, you may even jab me for spelling errors, or whatever trivial kiddie bs. I don't run a spellcheck, and type fast. Getting back now...Relax partner,...no need to get on my ass,... "at all!" The sign says "play nice" here. No calling me an "idiot" or whatever.... Where's your babysitter then? If you can't handle a bit of teasing, I suggest you find another board to post? It goes on here all too often, my advice get used to it "Princess."



With Love,

(Only Homo with a hot girlfriend)
P.S. Don't let my BF know.


Love

Bodytemple.
xoxoxox :FRlol: :p :p
 
Fogeddaboudit...... I'm "really" gone from this topic for now. I voiced my opinion,...said what I "thought".....Please just keep it "nice" guys and x the name calloing BS. We don't want this into a romper room kindergarten fight. Oop's spoke too soon....Sorry. You know who....;)


Thanks,...
BT
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
47 year old male using ProHormone as Base, w/ Dianabol at 25 mgs plus Arimidex 0.25 mgs, but I don't understand this response, please help--
Replies
27
Views
6K
the_alcatraz
the_alcatraz
jasonhill800
How Do You Know If You're Training Enough?
Replies
10
Views
3K
ballin2504
ballin2504
jasonhill800
Napsgear, Fast Facts About New Year’s Resolutioners
Replies
15
Views
3K
ballin2504
ballin2504
jasonhill800
Napsgear, Grow Massive Triceps with These Techniques
Replies
16
Views
4K
ballin2504
ballin2504
Macedog24
The best STEROIDS for your arsenal to get MONSTER SIZE + Hardcore bulking article
Replies
8
Views
4K
Tazz
Tazz
Top Bottom