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lol @droid
Could not have said it any better.
Im going to bump this 1 later.
Could not have said it any better.
Im going to bump this 1 later.
mod or ironmaster please clear this up gh Q for me
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M.O.D
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to be honest i dont know if there is any difference at all..they all are 191 amino acids except for protropin which has 192...i have used genotropin, sazien and serostim......i did the genotropin last year on its own and wasnt pleased with the results..i retained a shit load of water and my ankles blew up double size so i got off of it...
this year i did quite a bit of serostim and small doses of some primo and test (very small).....i went from 220 to 235...approx 22% bf down to 16.....energy level and strength were great...i also noticed several of the fine lines on my face disappear....over all im quite pleased with the serostim ....im now in the market for humatrope to see how i react to it....i know about a dozen years ago stallone use hum on its own and the fucker got shredded off of it.....
but its not a miracle drug..you must feed it and train hard just like any other drug...
this year i did quite a bit of serostim and small doses of some primo and test (very small).....i went from 220 to 235...approx 22% bf down to 16.....energy level and strength were great...i also noticed several of the fine lines on my face disappear....over all im quite pleased with the serostim ....im now in the market for humatrope to see how i react to it....i know about a dozen years ago stallone use hum on its own and the fucker got shredded off of it.....
but its not a miracle drug..you must feed it and train hard just like any other drug...
I just have to bump this one. It is a big issue to me and if there are issues with serostim it is too important to ignore. GH is expensive and time is just as expensive. No one wants to waste either using an inferior product. I have use several GH products but never serostim. i was really,,,,, really pleased with them all, except for the cost. But none the less, if a cheaper product doesn't work then what is the point. I am glad to hear IronMaster and MOD say they have tried it and liked it. If it was used long enough, I would think they could tell if it works or not. Anyway, if anyone else has info or experience, please post.
M.O.D
New member
spikedog ,
the reason you hear so much about serostim and why its seems to be easy to get is quite simple....
take humatrope..very hard to get..lilly will NOT just ship this drug to any pharmacy requesting it....
serostim comes in kits of 4,5 and 6mg ..serono makes these kits for aids wasting patients so its much easier to get and for bodybuilders its popular due to the high iu content per kit...
no as for the difference between serostim , genotropin, saizen or serostim and what they will do for you is still open for discussion..they all have the same 191 amino acid content but as to if one works better then the other i really dont have a clue...i know serostim has worked well for me
the reason you hear so much about serostim and why its seems to be easy to get is quite simple....
take humatrope..very hard to get..lilly will NOT just ship this drug to any pharmacy requesting it....
serostim comes in kits of 4,5 and 6mg ..serono makes these kits for aids wasting patients so its much easier to get and for bodybuilders its popular due to the high iu content per kit...
no as for the difference between serostim , genotropin, saizen or serostim and what they will do for you is still open for discussion..they all have the same 191 amino acid content but as to if one works better then the other i really dont have a clue...i know serostim has worked well for me
Sexual Mustard
New member
just curious, M.O.D., how long were you using your Serostim for? Did you use it simultaneously in the exact same time frame as your test/primo, or did you start running it earlier/keep running it after the steroids?
Since animals did benefit from increased muscle mass, the next step was to take these findings to humans. In cases of GH deficiency, small increases were found in muscle volume (~6-8%) and lean body mass (~11%). Exercise capacity was elevated in such patients (~12%), but strength was either not changed or mildly increased by about 8% (Jorgensen 1989, Salomon 1989).
In clinical trials, most of which were referenced above in the "deficiency" section, GH replacement has been shown to remedy most of the physiological abnormalities. The major benefits of GH therapy include positive protein balance (synthesis exceeds breakdown), increased lean body mass, decreased fat mass, increased insulin sensitivity, normalized body water, increased bone remodeling, and increased T4 to T3 conversion.
In addition, it's been recognized that around the age of 30, there's a progressive decline in GH secretion from the pituitary, so much so that by the age of 60, GH production can drop as much as 60%! This means that an aging pituitary that once produced 0.5 mg of GH per day would now produce only 0.2 mg per day, and this is definitely physiologically relevant. In fact, these production levels are often equivalent to those of GH deficient young adults. This age-related GH decline has been termed somatopause by some researchers and treatment requires GH replacement therapy.
Dr. Yarasheski wondered if well-trained athletes might be different. So another study was conducted to examine protein synthetic rates in GH-treated athletes. After 2 weeks of GH treatment (40micrograms/kg), the data were clear that short term GH had no effect on whole body protein synthesis or breakdown.
I included these above quotations to show several reasons why we may have a difference of opinion on these issues.
1. Those with GH deficiencies show marked benefits in all areas - lean muscle mass, reduced body fat and water retention, increased insulin sensitivity, as well as phsycological benefits.
2. Older men become GH deficient, the decline starts at 30. MOD, Spike, and I are no spring chickens...I'm 52 and GH produces excellent results for me, whatever the brand. I have used Serono products for years. On the other hand, a younger lifter, like Stew, may not see these benefits, because they have no deficiency as yet. I have always advocated the use of GH ONLY for older lifters, or for serious competitors who are looking for every edge they can get. My good friend is a well known IFBB pro ( he rarely posts, but reads this board) and exclusively uses Serostim.)
3. The study you referred to, Stew, tested subjects for only 2 weeks!!! It takes longer than that. In a follow up, he studied subjects for 12 weeks, as did Jorgenson and Saloman, and found the modest changes mentioned......but again, these were non deficient individuals.
My conclusions are that any reputable 191 amino based GH will produce results for older or GH deficient lifters, and aid in shredding the serious competitor.
BTW on the Saizen/Serostim concentration question, iu's measure mass, ie concentration. .675 cc's of reconstituted Saizen equals 1iu GH. .25cc's reconstituted Serostim equals 4.5iu's GH....more concentrated.
There is much disagreement on this topic amongst scientists, so its ok for us to be a bit unclear as well.
In clinical trials, most of which were referenced above in the "deficiency" section, GH replacement has been shown to remedy most of the physiological abnormalities. The major benefits of GH therapy include positive protein balance (synthesis exceeds breakdown), increased lean body mass, decreased fat mass, increased insulin sensitivity, normalized body water, increased bone remodeling, and increased T4 to T3 conversion.
In addition, it's been recognized that around the age of 30, there's a progressive decline in GH secretion from the pituitary, so much so that by the age of 60, GH production can drop as much as 60%! This means that an aging pituitary that once produced 0.5 mg of GH per day would now produce only 0.2 mg per day, and this is definitely physiologically relevant. In fact, these production levels are often equivalent to those of GH deficient young adults. This age-related GH decline has been termed somatopause by some researchers and treatment requires GH replacement therapy.
Dr. Yarasheski wondered if well-trained athletes might be different. So another study was conducted to examine protein synthetic rates in GH-treated athletes. After 2 weeks of GH treatment (40micrograms/kg), the data were clear that short term GH had no effect on whole body protein synthesis or breakdown.
I included these above quotations to show several reasons why we may have a difference of opinion on these issues.
1. Those with GH deficiencies show marked benefits in all areas - lean muscle mass, reduced body fat and water retention, increased insulin sensitivity, as well as phsycological benefits.
2. Older men become GH deficient, the decline starts at 30. MOD, Spike, and I are no spring chickens...I'm 52 and GH produces excellent results for me, whatever the brand. I have used Serono products for years. On the other hand, a younger lifter, like Stew, may not see these benefits, because they have no deficiency as yet. I have always advocated the use of GH ONLY for older lifters, or for serious competitors who are looking for every edge they can get. My good friend is a well known IFBB pro ( he rarely posts, but reads this board) and exclusively uses Serostim.)
3. The study you referred to, Stew, tested subjects for only 2 weeks!!! It takes longer than that. In a follow up, he studied subjects for 12 weeks, as did Jorgenson and Saloman, and found the modest changes mentioned......but again, these were non deficient individuals.
My conclusions are that any reputable 191 amino based GH will produce results for older or GH deficient lifters, and aid in shredding the serious competitor.
BTW on the Saizen/Serostim concentration question, iu's measure mass, ie concentration. .675 cc's of reconstituted Saizen equals 1iu GH. .25cc's reconstituted Serostim equals 4.5iu's GH....more concentrated.
There is much disagreement on this topic amongst scientists, so its ok for us to be a bit unclear as well.
Hey, Stew......I know you are a studious fellow.....here is a very complete list of references to GH studies. Maybe you can add a chapter to your book. I've read a lot of these, being a GH deficient old fart.
Vance ML. Hypopituitarism. N EngI J Med. 1994;330:1651-1662.
Bengtsson B-Å. The consequences of growth hormone deficiency in adults. Acta Endoctinologica. 1993;128:2-5.
Attanasio AF, Lamberts SWJ, Matranga AMC, et al., and the Adult Growth Hormone Deficiency Study Group. Adult growth hormone (GH)-deficient patients demonstrate heterogeneity between childhood onset and adult onset before and during human GH treatment. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82:82-88.
Binnerts A, Deurenberg P, Swart GR, Wilson JHP, Lamberts SWJ. Body composition in growth hormone- deficient adults. Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:918-923.
Rosén T, Bosaeus I, Tölli J, Lindstedt G, Bengtsson B-Å. Increased body fat mass and decreased extracellular fluid volume in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endochnol. 1993;38:63-71.
Salomon F, Cuneo RC, Hesp R, S6nksen PH. The effects of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone on body composition and metabolism in adults with growth hormone deficiency. N Engl J Med. 1989;321:1797-1803.
Cuneo RC, Salomon F, Wiles CM, Hesp R, Sönksen PH. Growth hormone treatment in growth hormone- deficient adults. II. Effects on exercise performance. J Appi Physiol. 1991;70:695-700.
Jorgensen JOL, Thuesen L, Müller J, Ovesen P, Skakkebask NE, Christiansen JS. Three years of growth hormone treatment in growth hormone-deficient adults: near normalization of body composition and physical performance. Eur J Endocrinol. 1994; 1 30:224-228.
Johannsson G, Grimby G, Sunnemagen KS, Bengtsson B-Å. Two years of growth hormone (GH) treatment increase isometric and isolkinetic muscle strength in GH-deficient adults. J Clin Endocrinot Metab. 1997;82:2877-2884.
Cuneo RC, Salomon F, Wiles CM, Sönksen PH. Skeletal muscle performance in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Horm Res. 1990;33(suppi 4):55-60.
Cuneo, RC, Salomon F, Watts GF, Hesp R, Sönksen PH. Growth hormone treatment improves serum lipids and lipoproteins in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Metabolism. 1993;42:1519-1523.
Rosén T, Edén S, Larson G, Wilhelmsen L, Bengtsson B-Å. Cardiovascular risk factors in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Endocrinologica. 1993; 1 29:195-200.
Kaufman J-M, Taelman P, Vermeulen A, Vandeweghe M. Bone mineral status in growth hormone- deficient males with isolated and multiple pituitary deficiencies of childhood onset. J Clin Endocrinot Mateo. 1992;74:118-123.
O'Halloran DJ, Tsatsoulis A, Whitehouse RW, Holmes SJ, Adams JE, Shalet SM. Increased bone density after recombinant human growth hormone (GH) therapy in adults with isolated GH deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993;76:1344-1348.
Rosén T, Hansson T, Granhed H, Szucs J, Bengtsson B-Å. Reduced bone mineral content in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Endocrinologica. 1993;1 29:201-206.
Cuocolo A, Nicolai E, Colao A, et al. Improved left ventricular function after growth hormone replacement in patients with hypopitultarism: assessment with radionuclide angiography. Eur J Nucl Med. 1996;23:390-394.
Fazio S, Cittaclini A, Sabatini D, et al. Growth hormone and heart performance: a novel mechanism of cardiac wall stress regulation in humans. Eur Heart J. 1997;1 8:340-347.
Merola B, Cittadini A, Colao A, et al. Cardiac structural and functional abnormalities in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993:77:1658-1661.
Rosén T, Wiren L, Wilhelmsen L, Wjklund I, Bengtsson B-Å. Decreased psychological well-being in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endocrinol. 1994;40:111-116.
Bengtsson B-Å, Edén S, Lönn L, et al. Treatment of adults with growth hormone (GH) deficiency with recombinant human GH. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993;76:309-317.
McGauley GA. Quality of life assessment before and after growth hormone treatment in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Pædiatr Scand. 1989;356:70-72.
Hunt SM. Developing a measure of quality of life for adults with growth hormone deficiency. Drug Information J. 1994;28:3-1 1.
Björk S, Jönsson B, Westphal 0, Levin J-E. Quality of life of adults with growth hormone deficiency: a controlled study. Acta Pædiatr Scand. 1989;356:55-59.
Wallymahmed ME, Baker GA, Humphris G, Dewey M, MacFarlane IA. The development, reliability and validity of a disease specific quality of life model for adults with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endocrinol. 1996;44:403-41 1.
Data on file, Eli Lilly and Company.
Nass R. Huber RM, Klauss V Müller OA, Schopohl J, Strasburger CJ. Effect of growth hormone (hGH) replacement therapy on physical work capacity and cardiac and pulmonary function in patients with hGH deficiency acquired in adulthood. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995;80:552-557.
Chipman JJ, Attanaslo AF, Birkett MA, Bates PC, Webb S, Lamberts SWJ. The safety profile of GH replacement therapy in adults. Clin Endocrinol. 1997;46:473-481.
Holmes SJ, Shalet SM. Which adults develop side-effects of growth hormone replacement? Clin Endocrinol. 1995;43:143-149.
Underwood LE, Van Wyk JJ. Normal and Aberrant Growth. In: Wilson JD, Foster DW, et al, eds. Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 8th Ed; pp1079-1138 (Publishers- W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia, 1992)
Rosenfeld RG “Disorders of Growth Hormone and Insulin-Like Growth Factor Secretion and Action. In: Sperling MA (ed) Pediatric Endocrinology; pp117-169 (Publishers-W. B. Saunders, Philadelphia, 1969)
Holcombe JH, Conforti PM, Wong AC, Thompson RG, Draper MW. Biosynthetic human growth hormone in the treatment of growth hormone deficiency. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1990;367 (suppl):44-48.
Rieser, PA. Growth Hormone Deficiency, Human Growth Foundation. 1979.
Sartorio A, Conti A, Molinari E, et al. Horm Res. 1996;45(1-2):23-29.
Stabler B, Clopper RR, Siegel PT, et al. Horm Res. 1996;45:30-33.
Sandberg DE, Brook AE, Campos SP. Pediatrics: 1994;94:832-840.
Downie AB, Mulligan J, Statford RJ, et al. BMJ 1997;314:97-100.
Tanner JM, Davies PSW. J Pediatr 1985;107(3);317-329
Vance ML. Hypopituitarism. N EngI J Med. 1994;330:1651-1662.
Bengtsson B-Å. The consequences of growth hormone deficiency in adults. Acta Endoctinologica. 1993;128:2-5.
Attanasio AF, Lamberts SWJ, Matranga AMC, et al., and the Adult Growth Hormone Deficiency Study Group. Adult growth hormone (GH)-deficient patients demonstrate heterogeneity between childhood onset and adult onset before and during human GH treatment. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997;82:82-88.
Binnerts A, Deurenberg P, Swart GR, Wilson JHP, Lamberts SWJ. Body composition in growth hormone- deficient adults. Am J Clin Nutr 1992;55:918-923.
Rosén T, Bosaeus I, Tölli J, Lindstedt G, Bengtsson B-Å. Increased body fat mass and decreased extracellular fluid volume in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endochnol. 1993;38:63-71.
Salomon F, Cuneo RC, Hesp R, S6nksen PH. The effects of treatment with recombinant human growth hormone on body composition and metabolism in adults with growth hormone deficiency. N Engl J Med. 1989;321:1797-1803.
Cuneo RC, Salomon F, Wiles CM, Hesp R, Sönksen PH. Growth hormone treatment in growth hormone- deficient adults. II. Effects on exercise performance. J Appi Physiol. 1991;70:695-700.
Jorgensen JOL, Thuesen L, Müller J, Ovesen P, Skakkebask NE, Christiansen JS. Three years of growth hormone treatment in growth hormone-deficient adults: near normalization of body composition and physical performance. Eur J Endocrinol. 1994; 1 30:224-228.
Johannsson G, Grimby G, Sunnemagen KS, Bengtsson B-Å. Two years of growth hormone (GH) treatment increase isometric and isolkinetic muscle strength in GH-deficient adults. J Clin Endocrinot Metab. 1997;82:2877-2884.
Cuneo RC, Salomon F, Wiles CM, Sönksen PH. Skeletal muscle performance in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Horm Res. 1990;33(suppi 4):55-60.
Cuneo, RC, Salomon F, Watts GF, Hesp R, Sönksen PH. Growth hormone treatment improves serum lipids and lipoproteins in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Metabolism. 1993;42:1519-1523.
Rosén T, Edén S, Larson G, Wilhelmsen L, Bengtsson B-Å. Cardiovascular risk factors in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Endocrinologica. 1993; 1 29:195-200.
Kaufman J-M, Taelman P, Vermeulen A, Vandeweghe M. Bone mineral status in growth hormone- deficient males with isolated and multiple pituitary deficiencies of childhood onset. J Clin Endocrinot Mateo. 1992;74:118-123.
O'Halloran DJ, Tsatsoulis A, Whitehouse RW, Holmes SJ, Adams JE, Shalet SM. Increased bone density after recombinant human growth hormone (GH) therapy in adults with isolated GH deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993;76:1344-1348.
Rosén T, Hansson T, Granhed H, Szucs J, Bengtsson B-Å. Reduced bone mineral content in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Endocrinologica. 1993;1 29:201-206.
Cuocolo A, Nicolai E, Colao A, et al. Improved left ventricular function after growth hormone replacement in patients with hypopitultarism: assessment with radionuclide angiography. Eur J Nucl Med. 1996;23:390-394.
Fazio S, Cittaclini A, Sabatini D, et al. Growth hormone and heart performance: a novel mechanism of cardiac wall stress regulation in humans. Eur Heart J. 1997;1 8:340-347.
Merola B, Cittadini A, Colao A, et al. Cardiac structural and functional abnormalities in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993:77:1658-1661.
Rosén T, Wiren L, Wilhelmsen L, Wjklund I, Bengtsson B-Å. Decreased psychological well-being in adult patients with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endocrinol. 1994;40:111-116.
Bengtsson B-Å, Edén S, Lönn L, et al. Treatment of adults with growth hormone (GH) deficiency with recombinant human GH. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993;76:309-317.
McGauley GA. Quality of life assessment before and after growth hormone treatment in adults with growth hormone deficiency. Acta Pædiatr Scand. 1989;356:70-72.
Hunt SM. Developing a measure of quality of life for adults with growth hormone deficiency. Drug Information J. 1994;28:3-1 1.
Björk S, Jönsson B, Westphal 0, Levin J-E. Quality of life of adults with growth hormone deficiency: a controlled study. Acta Pædiatr Scand. 1989;356:55-59.
Wallymahmed ME, Baker GA, Humphris G, Dewey M, MacFarlane IA. The development, reliability and validity of a disease specific quality of life model for adults with growth hormone deficiency. Clin Endocrinol. 1996;44:403-41 1.
Data on file, Eli Lilly and Company.
Nass R. Huber RM, Klauss V Müller OA, Schopohl J, Strasburger CJ. Effect of growth hormone (hGH) replacement therapy on physical work capacity and cardiac and pulmonary function in patients with hGH deficiency acquired in adulthood. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995;80:552-557.
Chipman JJ, Attanaslo AF, Birkett MA, Bates PC, Webb S, Lamberts SWJ. The safety profile of GH replacement therapy in adults. Clin Endocrinol. 1997;46:473-481.
Holmes SJ, Shalet SM. Which adults develop side-effects of growth hormone replacement? Clin Endocrinol. 1995;43:143-149.
Underwood LE, Van Wyk JJ. Normal and Aberrant Growth. In: Wilson JD, Foster DW, et al, eds. Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 8th Ed; pp1079-1138 (Publishers- W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia, 1992)
Rosenfeld RG “Disorders of Growth Hormone and Insulin-Like Growth Factor Secretion and Action. In: Sperling MA (ed) Pediatric Endocrinology; pp117-169 (Publishers-W. B. Saunders, Philadelphia, 1969)
Holcombe JH, Conforti PM, Wong AC, Thompson RG, Draper MW. Biosynthetic human growth hormone in the treatment of growth hormone deficiency. Acta Paediatr Scand. 1990;367 (suppl):44-48.
Rieser, PA. Growth Hormone Deficiency, Human Growth Foundation. 1979.
Sartorio A, Conti A, Molinari E, et al. Horm Res. 1996;45(1-2):23-29.
Stabler B, Clopper RR, Siegel PT, et al. Horm Res. 1996;45:30-33.
Sandberg DE, Brook AE, Campos SP. Pediatrics: 1994;94:832-840.
Downie AB, Mulligan J, Statford RJ, et al. BMJ 1997;314:97-100.
Tanner JM, Davies PSW. J Pediatr 1985;107(3);317-329
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