Milk and insulin -- a definitive answer?

[Protobuilder]

I know this question comes up a lot and people disagree on whether you milk while is good when cutting/bulking, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the insulin response caused by milk. People cite Berardi and say you shouldn't eat fats & carbs at the same time. Well, everyone knows milk has carbs (about 11 g. of lactose in a one-cup serving) and fat (unless you're drinking skim). I did some research and milk has a GI of roughly 40-45 (depending on whether it's skim or whole) and a glycemic load of around 4. So, if someone chugs down some 2% milk, are they going to get a large enough insulin spike that they'll store the milk fats as bodyfat? Or is the insulin response low enough that it won't make much difference?

I like to make shakes of two cups of 2% milk (10 g. fat, 22 g. of sugar total) plus two scoops of protein powder and one tablespoon of olive oil (14 g. mono-unsaturated fat). It's a 600 calorie shake w/ roughly 38 g. protein, 26 g. of sugar, and 28 g. of fat. My question is whether that sugar will cause an insulin spike, thereby encouraging my body to store the fats.

Any definitive answers guys? Any thoughts?

 

[Lifterforlife]

Milk will not give an insulin spike. The sugars are naturally occurring. This is why the gi is so low.

And don't put too much into that food partitioning stuff unless you are dieting. It is a useful tool then.

 

[Protobuilder]

Milk will not give an insulin spike. The sugars are naturally occurring. This is why the gi is so low.

And don't put too much into that food partitioning stuff unless you are dieting. It is a useful tool then.

Thanks for the response. Even naturally occurring sugars can cause an insuling spike though, right? I don't know for sure but people say stay away from refined/enriched carbs when dieting, etc., b/c of the insulin response, right? And those carbs are naturally occuring (pasta, fruits, etc.) . . .

 

[Lifterforlife]

Thanks for the response. Even naturally occurring sugars can cause an insuling spike though, right? I don't know for sure but people say stay away from refined/enriched carbs when dieting, etc., b/c of the insulin response, right? And those carbs are naturally occuring (pasta, fruits, etc.) . . .

Most folks do not drink milk as a meal. Drinking milk with a meal with of course change things.

There is much debate between the milk folks and milk nazi's. Any way it goes, when dieting it is a good and easy thing to eliminate. The reason most folks forgo milk when dieting is it is an easy place to cut calories, along with the naturally ocurring sugars.

Peopl do drop of course refined/enriched carbs when dieting for obvious reasons, I in fact drop them any time.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Insulin control is not the end all of dieting, heck, even protien can influence insulin enough to lower total lipolysis anyway.

 

[Protobuilder]

Just to give some examples of the disagreement out there, I did some research and found lots of people saying "milk doesn't cause an insuline response" but then there's stuff like this, the first sentence from a 2003 medical study:

Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI.

So who the hell knows??

Do you think my milk/protein/olive oil shake is a bad meal idea, then? I use it as my mid-AM meal to get me through to lunch.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Hell, even protein can and does elevate insulin to some degree. It can stop lipolysis.

In the end, unless you are contest dieting, micromanaging is probably not essential. It all comes down to calories in/calories out.

 

[Protobuilder]

Heh, yeah, you're probably right. I'm just like everybody else -- want to bulk up but stay lean too. LoL

 

[Cynical Simian]

Like lifterforlife said, it's not something to worry about. Milk products aren't nutritionally vacuous like a lot of other (read: highly processed) foods that generate large insulin responses and you'll be eating it with other things anyway.

Full text of the study from which the quoted sentence about insulin response despite low GI came:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246

 

[siamesedream]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=546516

http://www.truthinfitness.org/projects/mcDonalds/journal.html



Those 2 links are extremely interesting reads. It really causes one to question the validity of "clean" foods in general. Citing 3,000 webpages of sources that say there is, most certainly, a difference between eating "clean" and not eating "clean" makes no difference, results are all that matters. Thought these 2 things would be an interesting read with all the insulin-response talk of milk here.

I might run such an experiment myself when it's time to cut again.

 

[Lifterforlife]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=546516

http://www.truthinfitness.org/projects/mcDonalds/journal.html



Those 2 links are extremely interesting reads. It really causes one to question the validity of "clean" foods in general. Citing 3,000 webpages of sources that say there is, most certainly, a difference between eating "clean" and not eating "clean" makes no difference, results are all that matters. Thought these 2 things would be an interesting read with all the insulin-response talk of milk here.

I might run such an experiment myself when it's time to cut again.

If anyone wants to get really technical, milk actually contains some trans fats naturally occurring.

"Clean" as you put it is probably is probably more readily put in the context of "healthy".

 

[fortunatesun]

Just for the sake of technicalities, I believe there is a small percentage of people where insulin spike is a factor.

It's not all that common, though. The best advice if you're still worried is to go ahead and drink your milk because, if it turns out that your one of the few where this is an issue, you'll know very shortly.

(I just posted this because someone will always come up with a story about his or her friend who has a problem with milk,etc. It might be true but it's nothing that should influence your decision.)

 

[Protobuilder]

Nice. Thanks guys. I LOVE milk and would drink it all day, and now that I"m taking a break from cutting, I've added it back into my diet. I alternate between skim & 2% depending on whether or not I want the extra cals and fat. I love the stuff. It's addicting. I just wanted to make sure that if I pound down 32 oz. before bed, I won't be getting a huge insulin spike.

 

[javaguru]

These two studies show a discrepancy between the glycemic index and II, one used type II diabetics and the other healthy individuals;

Gannon MC, Nuttall FQ, Krezowski PA, Billington CJ, Parker S. The serum insulin and plasma glucose responses to milk and fruit products in type 2 (non-insulin-dependent) diabetic patients. Diabetologia 1986;29:784-91.

Schrezenmeir J, Tato F, Tato S, et al. Comparison of glycemic response and insulin requirements after mixed meals of equal carbohydrate content in healthy, type-1, and type-2 diabetic man. Klin Wochenschr 1989;67:985-94

This study concluded consuming milk increased risk of insulin resistance;

Lawlor DA, Ebrahim S, Timpson N, Davey Smith G. Avoiding milk is associated with a reduced risk of insulin resistance and the metabolic syndrome: findings from the British Women's Heart and Health Study. Diabet Med. 2005;22:808-11.

This study found whey protein to have a strong insulinogenic effect, greater than milk. It appears that BCAA composition, as well as other insulinogenic aminos, may be the primary culprit in the glycemic index discrepancy. Whey is rapidly absorbed and has a very high BCAA content. BCAA's are metabolized directly in the muscle cells as opposed to the liver, which results in a marked insulin response. This coincides with the results of the famous Boire study comparing whey and casein. Boire concluded that in a fasted state much of the whey aminos were converted to glucose due to its solubility and rapid absorption, which would cause a rise in insulin independent of the BCAA's.

Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 80, No. 5, 1246-1253, November 2004

 

[Protobuilder]

Um . . . care to put that into English? LoL I'm not sure what to make of that . . .

 

[Cynical Simian]

Um . . . care to put that into English? LoL I'm not sure what to make of that . . .

The insulin response caused by milk is large (high Insulin Index) but because it's due to proteins there isn't a correspondingly large impact on blood glucose (Glycemic Index).

 

[Protobuilder]

Nice. Nothing like feeling like a moron. LoL That makes perfect sense. Looks like I can keep my milk . . .

 

[javaguru]

The moral of the story is that you consume whey isolate after workouts and conume other proteins as a general source, milk isolate is my choice.

 

[javaguru]

The insulin response caused by milk is large (high Insulin Index) but because it's due to proteins there isn't a correspondingly large impact on blood glucose (Glycemic Index).

There is an increase in insulin because BCAA's need it to be metabolized by muscle tissue. It's not necessarily a "bad" thing just time your high insulin levels.

 

[Protobuilder]

Well, maybe I'm just dense, but javaguru's last sentence confused me:

just time your high insulin levels

. If cynical simian is right that milk causes a high insulin response but doesn't affect blood sugar levels, then what's the concern with "timing" it? (I do understand the importance of timing insulin spikes, e.g., PWO)

Sorry for being dense. I usually don't overanalyze but I'm wondering if I swore off milk during my cut for no good reason (and, yes, I understand the calorie & fat content issues, satiety concerns, etc.).

 

[Lifterforlife]

Hey Proto....here's a novel idea....you are bulking, you like milk, never had a problem with it?? Drink it! On the other hand, if you have lactose problems, or something similar, or just had a sugar problem or something with it, then don't drink it! Problem solved.

Hell, all proteins tend to raise insulin pretty equally anyway. Going to give them up?

 

[javaguru]

Well, maybe I'm just dense, but javaguru's last sentence confused me: . If cynical simian is right that milk causes a high insulin response but doesn't affect blood sugar levels, then what's the concern with "timing" it? (I do understand the importance of timing insulin spikes, e.g., PWO)

Sorry for being dense. I usually don't overanalyze but I'm wondering if I swore off milk during my cut for no good reason (and, yes, I understand the calorie & fat content issues, satiety concerns, etc.).

Chronically elevated insulin levels can lead to insulin resistance. That being said, CHO is going to raise insulin more than protein, so it's not a huge concern...especially for a fit athlete.

 

[Lifterforlife]

In other words, read my post above.