Madcow, if you could clarify...

[Slyder190]

I know that there are no real black and white answers to many ofthe quesyions others and myself have asked regarding 5x5 and the like, but I wanted to know if you could clarify something a bit for me...

I posted a thread a few weeks back regarding 5x5 while cycling and you gave me the link to your thoughts on it. I'm unclear though, My cycle is set up so that I have fast esters and compounds at the beginning and the end, with a long ester in-between, so it's a pretty even ride all the way through., I started the loading phase as normal. I'm now into week 5. I had been going in 5% weight increases from week to week as far as original 1x5 and 5x5 maxes. should I add some more weight now during this period? Perhaps like 5-10lbs more than what i would normally be doing? Like say I was supposed to be doing say 200lbs for a 3x5 exercise. Would bumping that to say 205 or 210 lbs fuck things up in the overall scheme of things? I don't want to get too crazy with weights, as I know it will make it more difficult down the road, but I do want to maximize my cycle and try and use more weight that I would natural. Or should i just stick extra size I may acquire? Thanks.

 

[Madcow2]

The only thing you can do is go by feel. Make the jumps to put you where you need to be (which means pushing very hard in the final 2 weeks). If the jumps become too big to take on, add an extra week to smooth it out. If you are fresh as a spring chicken toward the middle of the 2nd PR week (i.e. week 4 normally), maybe push another week out of it unless things slide back on you all of a sudden. It's really hard to say, depending on the person it might even be a better choice to run linearly for as long as they are able and then deload as needed. Without frame of reference you are running by feel and it's going to be very hard to quantify anything and have it work out without a lot of luck.

 

[majutsu]

I used to disagree with madcow on this, but now I think he's right. On roids, single factor with deload as needed is best. The jumps are too erratic to map out well dual factor. For example, after frustrating DF runs with cycles, I went to SF, and in the squat I increased 40lbs in two weeks while bench was frozen. Only to have squat freeze and bench shoot up 20lbs in a week and a half subsequent to that. Very strange irregularities happen when you cycle, and single factor is the best way to maximize your gains on a cycle with 5x5 and avoid frustrating roadblocks.

 

[Slyder190]

I gotcha. I personally don't think single factor work for as long as I'm progressing is best for me. Reason being that after my cycle, the decrease in performance may be too much. I have run single factor while cycling time after time and eventually, I stale out at some point. While this would have been an oppurtune time to deload unbeknownst to me, I still don't like the idea of pushing myself till I am definately overtraining and in a hole. I'd rather use DF and delaod as the program calls for. I may be able to keep loading, but I'd still rather keep my body in a state where I'm not pushing the issue with recovery, or lack there of as the case may be. You're right, it is very hard to try and figure out how much extra weight to try and add and where. I'll just go by feel, as that is really my only choice I beleive.

 

[Madcow2]

I gotcha. I personally don't think single factor work for as long as I'm progressing is best for me. Reason being that after my cycle, the decrease in performance may be too much. I have run single factor while cycling time after time and eventually, I stale out at some point. While this would have been an oppurtune time to deload unbeknownst to me, I still don't like the idea of pushing myself till I am definately overtraining and in a hole. I'd rather use DF and delaod as the program calls for. I may be able to keep loading, but I'd still rather keep my body in a state where I'm not pushing the issue with recovery, or lack there of as the case may be. You're right, it is very hard to try and figure out how much extra weight to try and add and where. I'll just go by feel, as that is really my only choice I beleive.

In a more basic way of saying it, keep the template from the DF version. The goal in a program that entails loading is to reach a point of overreaching which is before real overtraining sets in (and real overtraining is something very few experience). In overreaching there is stagnation and you can very much experience performance deficit (this drop is the commensurate rebounding effect experienced under deloading). So, as long as you are hammering away and making progress - keep at it. Get to the PR phases and run them, if you continue to feel good, go in the next week and set new PRs. Eventually you will have to deload - probably find you recover faster that natural and you can get back after it again but as long as you are setting PRs and things are moving north just follow in line. So you are still using dual factor theory and a periodized program but since you can't predict things with accuracy you let your body be your guide. You know how you felt the first time through after week 4, maybe you ran it twice and really pushed hard the 2nd time. The symptoms will be the same, when you are fatigued, deload.

These are the relevant pieces from Kelly Baggett's article http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

Over-reaching-is pushing yourself into a mild state of fatigue with your training. Regression in performance sometimes does occur during an over-reaching period, yet performance rebounds back very quickly, usually above and beyond it's previous level, with a short period of rest or lowered volume (within days). It can be good or bad depending on how you use it.

Overtraining- occurs when you chronically over-reach for months or years on end. This leads to performance regression that can take months to recover from and is associated with multiple and sometimes permanent endocrine disruptions. Although there are some athletes who are chronically overtrained and don't realize it (distance runners, bodybuilders, and some basketball players come to mind), most athletes don't ever reach a true overtrained state.

Intentionally Creating a Regression in Performance

The magnitude of the incomplete recovery you create during a loading period will vary. In fact, the practice of "shock" concentrated loading is practiced by many countries for different sports. In a traditional concentrated loading phase, the goal IS simply to beat the body into an over-reaching state where the actual goal of the training is a DECREASE in performance. Loading of any primary emphasis may be used (strength work, speed works, jumps etc.)

The lower that performance falls during the loading period (within acceptable limits of 10-15% or so), the greater that performance rises during the unloading period. I don't recommend intentionally loading to the point that performance falls off noticeably due to injury risk, but you can still incorporate and benefit a less intense version of the same process.

 

[Slyder190]

I hear ya. I just pray I can still make nice size gains.

 

[Madcow2]

Well, if you eat, lift, and get stronger you will get bigger. It's just about managing workload and fatigue. But really, if your lifts are going up and you are eating - it's going to happen one way or another.

Something general and not meaning you specifically:

One thing that I always kind of found funny is that a lot of BBers seem to think size has nothing to do with strength and that it is totally incidental to their 'hypertrophy' training (which is all very special and comes right out of the most reputable of sources, bodybuilding magazines and bodybuilding boards). I mean, there are small guys that are much stronger than big guys - of course, as they've gotten bigger they've also gotten stronger so God forbid a little brain power is applied.

Then you get these guys who've been plateaued for a long time or whatever and decide to use drugs. They plan it all out, get their special supplements and monkey ass oil, plan to eat more food to really get as much as they can out of it (BONG! Caloric Excess for $500 Alex). And when the drugs kick in the very first thing they report is that they are getting stronger (BONG! Stimulus for Hypertrophy for $500 Alex) and can handle more sets and recover faster (BONG! What is Workload Alex). Yet nobody on the anabolic boards ever seems to put that together. Kind of a mystery to me.