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Long: The left was right.

ChefWide

Elite Mentor
Platinum
"One year ago this past weekend, an estimated ten million human beings marched world wide against Mr. Bush's planned invasion of Iraq. They marched in major cities such as London, Madrid and Canberra, capitals of Mr. Bush's military and diplomatic partners in what passed for a broad coalition; they marched in Paris, Berlin, Tokyo and other major capitals of the world; they marched in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles and other major cities of the United States, including San Francisco, where this writer marched with an estimated 200,000 others.

The message was clear: on one side stood George W. Bush, presumptive President of the United States, his aides and PNAC think-tankers, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his aides and a small handful of other world leaders, set to invade a sovereign state with no provocation; on the other stood the people of the world, a teeming mass of humanity, led by the political Left to oppose them.

They said that Saddam needed be overthrown because he was a brutal dictator. We knew all about Saddam and made no apologies for him. We knew that he had plunged Iraq into two senseless wars, one with the blessing of the US government and one with its active opposition. We knew that he had used poison gas on his own people. We knew that he murdered thousands of Shiites in the aftermath of the 1991 war. We knew that he was one of the great criminals of modern history.

And still this did not excuse war. If Saddam was a criminal in 1991, we could have and should have brought him to justice in the aftermath of the war; President Bush chose not to do so. In February 2003, there was no immediate humanitarian crisis in Iraq for which Saddam was directly responsible; he was not a threat to his weakest neighbor; and he had no associations with the terrorists who attacked the United States on September 11, 2001.

They told us that Saddam possessed a dangerous arsenal of biochemical weapons and maybe even nuclear weapons. They told us Iraqi commanders could launch a biochemical attack within 45 minutes of Saddam ordering it. They told us Saddam has links to Osama bin Laden and the al Qaida network.

We of the political Left who marched knew very well that there was no stopping Bush. He would have his war. We knew he would dismiss us, which he did, arrogantly calling us a "focus group." A focus group of ten million people. However, we could show him our contempt. We could show him that we were wise to lies. We could show him that we knew that Saddam did not have anything like the arsenal that Bush and his fellow prevaricators claimed; that we knew that the ongoing weapons inspections were working; that we knew the invasion had nothing to do with fighting terrorists; that intelligence was being cooked; that the war would be nothing but a crass colonial invasion, gunboat diplomacy with cruise missiles.

We of the Left knew that what was about to take place was one of the major crimes of modern times.

One year later, we have every right to hold our heads high. We of the Left were right.

The left was right on all counts. As it turns out, Saddam was a paper tiger; there was no imminent threat. Insofar as he was a threat, Saddam was contained; for twelve years since being expelled from Kuwait, all his saber rattling was nothing but bluster. Saddam had no ties to al Qaida, let alone any part in the September 11 attacks. What Islamic fundamentalist terror organization operated in Iraq operated in Kurdish regions beyond Saddam's control. The left said there was no justification for the war, and there was none. The left was right.

The left said talk of the Iraqi people welcoming the invaders with open arms and roses was nonsense. The Iraqi people know the difference between liberation and colonial occupation. They are resisting occupation. Also decried as nonsense was talk of going into Iraq to democratize the Middle East. Bush loses an election and seizes power, tramples on the Bill of Rights and human rights treaties, operates what should be an open government in secret and sends troops into combat after giving false justifications for the act. The idea that such a man would be interested in bringing democracy and the rule of law to Iraq is ludicrous. The colonial regime represses freedom of the press, the right to assemble and the right to petition for redress of grievances. The Iraqi Governing Council is a group of quislings handpicked by the US colonial viceroy, not a body representative of or responsible to the Iraqi people. The invasion has not brought democracy to Iraq. The left was right.

The left said that Bush's cronies would profit from the invasion. Halliburton and Bechtel received contracts to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure without having to bid competitively. The left was right.

The left said the occupation following the invasion would become a quagmire. Since the invasion, Islamists have come to Iraq to fight Americans. They weren't there before, but they are now. Half of the US army's combat divisions are in Iraq on occupation duty. They are not protecting Americans from terrorists; they are protecting Halliburton. Once again, the left was right.

It is Bush who threatens to use nuclear weapons as a first strike. It is Bush who threatens to launch "pre-emptive" (actually preventive) attacks on other nations. It is Bush who arrogantly casts aside any treaty, convention or agreement that stands between him and his loot. Bush, like Saddam, is a tyrant. As dangerous as was Saddam at his worst, Bush is far and away the most dangerous man on earth.

One year later, there is still work to be done. The American occupation of Iraq continues. It must end for the benefit of both nations. The Iraqis must be free to choose their own destiny and control their own resources; the Americans must free their military resources to make them safe from the real threat posed by Osama bin Laden and his al Qaida network. Bush still sits in the White House. He must be removed for the safety of Americans and the world. Once removed, Americans must act to restore the good name of this nation, the good name tarnished by Mr. Bush, and to restore trust in American leadership. A new president must re-establish the confidence that when American leaders speak, they speak the truth and not some lie aimed at achieving a nefarious, imperial goal too foul to be named. When an American president says it is time to go to war, the people of the world must know that every other avenue has been tried and has failed. There is no such thing as a war of choice that can be justified.

We must not fail in our goal. Bush must go in order for American democracy restored at home and trust in American leadership to be restored abroad. "

link
 
link: check post edit.
 
Wow. Nice hindsight.
 
Hey! They got something right. Does this absolve them from historically supporting every Marxist regime?

Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.
 
atlantabiolab said:
Hey! They got something right. Does this absolve them from historically supporting every Marxist regime?

Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

Oh, but supporting military dictators is okay...
 
Mr. dB said:


Oh, but supporting military dictators is okay...

It must be. We have one in washington.
 
Guys please stay focused.


I know everyone is pretty well entrenched in their personal political views but it is possible to keep this from spiraling out into a dogmatic, inflamitory and completely non productive argument.
 
I feel our country has given the office of the president too much power. There is a reason our consitution only gives the congress the authority to wage war.

There also seems to be a very troubling attitude that it is unpatriotic to question the decisions of the president. I think this is part of the reason for what's happened in Iraq. When a sitting president sets the wheels of military engagement in motion people mistakenly believe that they no longer can or should differ with the president's opinion. I think part of the reason for this is we want to believe the guy running our county is smarter than we are and that he knows what he is doing.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I don't seem to recall when the last war was actually declared. WWII?

Yes.
 
anya said:
I feel our country has given the office of the president too much power. There is a reason our consitution only gives the congress the authority to wage war.

You are correct. There is also a reason why our officials and judiciary skirt the Constitution: because it limits their powers.
 
atlantabiolab said:


You are correct. There is also a reason why our officials and judiciary skirt the Constitution: because it limits their powers.
We have an interesting member who calls himself "IhateOsama".

He says that the Constitution is used to control people. I found this statement to be of unusual interest. What people are getting controlled by the Constitution and are bridled about it?
 
War was not declared, true. However Congress did (overwhelmingly) pass a resolution supporting the President's intent to go to war. Now that troops have been committed, folks are getting the shakes.

Your link states that Saddam was not a threat. This is because he was kept at bay by US and British forces via no-fly zones. This had been going on since 1991.

According to intelligence reports interpreted identically by Bush, Blair, the UN, and the US Congress, Iraq had a weapons program that posed a threat.

Saddam had ample opportunity to "come clean" regarding his weapons programs. He chose not to. In the environment created by 9-11, the president chose not to take his word. The president was very clear in the days after 9-11 that he intended to take an aggressive stance against those who support terrorism or want to harm US interests at home or abroad.

What is happening right now in Iraq is good for America, the Middle East, the world and Iraq. As a country we made a committment by launching into this war. So far it has been hugely successful. We need to stay the course.

We will by re-electing George W. Bush.

The left is wrong, and unfortunately, America continues to be wronged by the left.
 
people believe the president has a lot more power than he really has. he has a lot of influence, don't get me wrong. congress actually has a disproportionate amount of power. the problem is that since the president has so much influence over the gullible public, when congress acts, they act in accordance with the general will, which is strongly influenced by the (mis)information that the white house puts out there.

congress supported the war in iraq because they didn't want to seem unpatriotic or cowardly in the eyes of the american people. of course the american people were much too easily swayed by the president's accusations concerning iraq.
 
PIGEON-RAT said:
congress supported the war in iraq because they didn't want to seem unpatriotic or cowardly in the eyes of the american people. of course the american people were much too easily swayed by the president's accusations concerning iraq.

Shame on congress then.

No, the american people agreed with what the president was doing.
 
ttlpkg said:
Chef Wide, your silence is deafening

What are you blathering on about now? Silence in regard to what? This thread had no questions that needed answering. What would like me to do, rehash some conservative claptrap I heard on Fox News? Oh, sorry, I almost forgot: that's your job.
 
LOL @ claptrap.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I don't seem to recall when the last war was actually declared. WWII?

If I remember correctly, we never actually left the contec of a declaration of "war". Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mine is something relating to the "declaration of war" and the war powers act. Which is why you see the "War on drugs" etc.
 
Bush loses an election and seizes power

I liked the viewpoint of the initial post. The above quote is entertaining and is counterproductive to "leftist" viewpoints. If Gore had won it by the means set aside in the constitution and courts I'm sure there would be the same BS hubub about it from the "right". As it is, this particular argument is as much of a detriment to those arguing it as when Michael Moore got up and grandstanded about the illegal presidency. That was nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic. Although he may make great films, he completely lost any respect I had for him and his work by that particular brain fart.

Bush and his bunch of political assigns have screwed up enough on their own. One doesn't need that lame ass "loses the election and seizes power" argument to foul the waters of a very well thought out albeit one sided argument.

*Stepping off soapbox*
 
Chef, losen the laces on your panties bro. You seem a little snappy with TTLPKG.

LOL @ CLAPTRAP but the part about quoting fox... how Ironic you badger him for quoting conservative claptrap... When you are rehashing some bullshit posted by Democratic Underground??? bwahahahaha Think they might be a little full of shit big guy?

What is worse? Quoting Fox or Quoting Democratic Underground Articles?

Both = Propaganda

GO BUSH GO ----> LETS go GET KOREA!!! WOOHOO
 
sh4dowf4lcon said:
too bad strongsmartsexy isnt just strongsmartandquiet


LOL

:) And, I've been a republican for the last 34 years. Bush has made me realize that something is amiss and totally screwed. *sigh* Unfortunately, the democrats aren't giving me much else to work with. Nothing like a comedy of errors in politics. [Politics = poly, meaning many, tics, meaning blood sucking parasites. My appologies to the comedian who's material I just snagged]

I liked that we went in to Iraq. Should have finished that task off in the first gulf war. "Intelligence" being what it is, or in this case isn't, leaves a lot to be desired. Makes one wonder why the heck those agencies get so damn much money.
 
sh4dowf4lcon said:
Chef, losen the laces on your panties bro. You seem a little snappy with TTLPKG.

I poked holes in his weak argument on another thread and he has been getting personal ever since. Happens all the time with libs. He'll get over it.
 
ttlpkg said:
I poked holes in his weak argument on another thread and he has been getting personal ever since. Happens all the time with libs. He'll get over it.


bro its not our fault the conservatives :evil: rule the world! :chomp:


glad ive got my oil stock!
 
sh4dowf4lcon said:
Saddaam was not a threat to his weakest neighbor??

No links to terror??

Wow. Some people believe everything they read.

actually there really is no documented proof of terror connections. If you do know of some, please feel free to post links.

As for Iraq a threat to weak neighbors..... SO WHAT? Since when is it our business to protect the safety of other nations? Not only that, anyone can see how depleted their military was. They were a threat to almost no one.
 
The Nature Boy said:
actually there really is no documented proof of terror connections. If you do know of some, please feel free to post links.

As for Iraq a threat to weak neighbors..... SO WHAT? Since when is it our business to protect the safety of other nations? Not only that, anyone can see how depleted their military was. They were a threat to almost no one.

The only "viable" explanation I have heard for this action was that Bush decided to occupy Iraq as a precurosr to multiple Middle east regime changes, particularly Iran and Saudi Arabia.

The issue thereis then legitimacy - do you believe the US has any grounds to do this? And, does the positive outcomes (if they are indeed positive) of remvoing three opporessive regimes justify themeans under which it was done?

That's the real issue, not the WMD and terror link....those have been effectively answered.
 
ttlpkg said:
I poked holes in his weak argument on another thread and he has been getting personal ever since. Happens all the time with libs. He'll get over it.

Yawn. You bore the dead. When you find the character to defend your own weakness, then call me. Until then, congratulate yourself, no one else will.

ShaddowBor: I love ttlpkg, mang. He makes ANYONE look good.
 
ChefWide said:
What are you blathering on about now? Silence in regard to what? This thread had no questions that needed answering. What would like me to do, rehash some conservative claptrap I heard on Fox News? Oh, sorry, I almost forgot: that's your job.

note to self dont ever wake the beast: :vanp: <--chefwide
 
The Nature Boy said:
that sounds like isreal's problem if you ask me. That is not the US's problem. I don't want US soldiers getting killed and my freaking tax money being spent for some other country.

A couple of posts ago you stated with conviction that Hussein was not involved in terrorism. Now that you've been proven wrong you're saying that it's not our problem because it's not on US soil. Would you rather wait until we get attacked again?

Bush stated that if you support terrorism, you are a terrorist. He declared war on global terrorism and took the offensive. Saddam Hussein supported/enabled/encouraged terrorism. He doesn't anymore. The policy is working.
 
ttlpkg said:
A couple of posts ago you stated with conviction that Hussein was not involved in terrorism. Now that you've been proven wrong you're saying that it's not our problem because it's not on US soil. Would you rather wait until we get attacked again?

Bush stated that if you support terrorism, you are a terrorist. He declared war on global terrorism and took the offensive. Saddam Hussein supported/enabled/encouraged terrorism. He doesn't anymore. The policy is working.


its not like we've ever supported rebels or terrorists though, right?

shit, we once supported saddam and sent bio-warfare his way.....are we supporting terrorism indirectly?



the payment of sucide bombers is NOT a legitamate reason for us going to war...as much as people on the pro-war side search for a legit. reason for war, they don't find it, and move from reason to reason. He did this as a method for islamic support because he knew a war was coming...its Israels problem, and if this was the reason we went to war its laughable

1st = al-queada (no proof)
2nd = WMD (still being searched for...but US and UN experts say no)
3rd = removing an evil dictator from power (who evidently was less evil in '91)

well....we can say he has not had any proven supportative links to Al-Queada...dont forget islamic extremists HATE him...and he hates them. and his links to terrorism directed to the US are unproven. public sabre rattling against palestinian suicide bombers isnt that
 
ttlpkg said:
A couple of posts ago you stated with conviction that Hussein was not involved in terrorism. Now that you've been proven wrong you're saying that it's not our problem because it's not on US soil. Would you rather wait until we get attacked again?

Bush stated that if you support terrorism, you are a terrorist. He declared war on global terrorism and took the offensive. Saddam Hussein supported/enabled/encouraged terrorism. He doesn't anymore. The policy is working.
I will agree with you about bush declaring war on global terrorism. however the bush administration repeatedly tried to link al queda with saddam, and it was repeatedly proved false. now a lot of the american public bought into the notion of osama and hussein being buddy buddy.

the fact of the matter is that we used the farcical notion of the link between 9-11 and saddam as a reason for going to war with iraq, not iraq's links with palestinian freedom fighters.
 
The Nature Boy said:
the fact of the matter is that we used the farcical notion of the link between 9-11 and saddam as a reason for going to war with iraq, not iraq's links with palestinian freedom fighters.

I'm sure that there were some folks that accepted the President's warnings about Iraq as a direct link to 9-11, but is that what he said? My understanding was that in the environment of post 9-11, we could not afford to tolerate state-supported terrorism, and had to go after it BEFORE it threatened us directly. Our intel, UK intel, a 15-0 vote in the UN, the Clinton admin and our Congress (dems & republicans) all agreed Hussein posed a threat.

Since Hussein refused to come clean Bush chose to act. You can argue that he acted in haste, I think that is a fair argument. I don't think he did. The good thing about it is that the american people will have a say about it in November.
 
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