long question by old guy doing first cycle

[fuitilium]

I am a 42 year old male who has been weight training, on and off, since age 16 and a former college division 1 starting lineman. I usually followed a power lifter’s workout and ate crappy but beginning in January of 1996 got very serious about my workouts, ate better and changed my workout to more of a bodybuilding routine. I went from 360 pounds down to 215 at 6.5% body fat. I went from a 52” waist to 32” waist. The past few years I’ve experienced some debilitating back pain which I tried to workout through but wasn’t real successful, tried to re-incorporate carbs into the diet, and turned 40. Needless to say, my physique has suffered. I’m pushing a 40” waist, and have fat around my butt and thighs (bad body type). My muscularity is still good but I lack definition in spite of 4 – 5 cardio sessions a week and regular workouts.

I had a blood test done which showed everything within the normal range but the T was a bit on the low side (still average for my age). After years of being “natural” I broke down and decided to try a cycle.

Now, I know that I should have brought my body fat back down before starting, but I didn’t. That being said, I am now about to start week 4 of my 13 week cycle and I have some questions / concerns, that I have not been able to answer on my own through research or forum searches.

Here is what I am doing:

Week 1, 2 and 3: 500 mg sustanon and 50 mg ever other day of wini
Week 4, 5, and 6: 40 mg d of dbol and 400 mg w of deca (wk 4 Nolvadex tabs daily as well)
Week 7, and 8: 200 mg w of primo and 5000 iu wk of HCG plus clomid
Week 9, 10 and 11: 100 mg day of anadros, 750 mg w of testoviron plus nolvadex
Week 12 and 13: clomid

Workout wise I am doing 5 workouts a week on a split routine - chest and back twice a week, shoulders and arms twice a week and legs once a week. I normally do 35 minutes of cardio after each workout but, since starting the above, have only been doing 3 cardio sessions a week.

So, here are my questions for the learned masses out there. 1. injection sites are very sore and black and blue. Injections into my thighs cause muscle pain in that thigh similar to DOMs that begin a day after injection and last for a day or two. Joints are painful and sore (feels like I used to after full pads football practice or a game). Is this normal? Am I doing something incorrectly? Additionally, what should I expect over the next few weeks since I am changing to a new anabolic? Will these conditions persist?

On a good note, my strength increases have been great and I’ve gained some size Seems as if I am leaning out a bit (although not expected until later in the cycle) although my face feels a bit bloated. My diet has been pretty good – doing Muscle Milk shakes 3 times a day and 2 real meals (keeping carbs on the lower side by avoiding anything white). I just had a 5 day road trip with my 10 year old daughter so I ate relatively poorly (sodium could be the facial bloat as well) but am back on track.

So, I welcome your thoughts and input.

 

[bigmouth2006]

before doing any gear you need to get your bf down

and when you do test and deca should be fine because you have alot of unnessary gear in your cycle plan some you will be wasting and some are just a bad idea

 

[fuitilium]

when you do test and deca should be fine because you have alot of unnessary gear in your cycle plan some you will be wasting and some are just a bad idea

could you elaborate?

 

[Cauliflower Ear]

yeah...i would use some shit to get your BF down...anavar sounds pretty bomb for you...also it might be a great time for some GH....great way to get your bf down

 

[Ulter]

Bro no offense but that might just be the most ill-conceived cycle I have ever seen. And I've been doing this 20 years. Who designed that mess?
1. do not use winny to start cycle at your age
2. never use nolva with deca or anadrol
3. start with test/deca and finish with test/deca. Don't change your AS every few weeks. Adding the orals like winny at the end or starting with anadrol for a few weeks is a good way to go.
Let's start over and redo this from top to bottom.

 

[drrman]

Week 1, 2 and 3: 500 mg sustanon and 50 mg ever other day of wini
Week 4, 5, and 6: 40 mg d of dbol and 400 mg w of deca (wk 4 Nolvadex tabs daily as well)
Week 7, and 8: 200 mg w of primo and 5000 iu wk of HCG plus clomid
Week 9, 10 and 11: 100 mg day of anadros, 750 mg w of testoviron plus nolvadex
Week 12 and 13: clomid


this cycle makes no sense to me at all..

why dball starting at week 4.....start it from the beginning for the first 4 weeks

200mg primo/week for 2 weeks is a complete waste of time and money......not enough primo or length of time running it......drop the primo completely

why winny at the beginning, run it the last 5-6 weeks of the cycle

and WHY IN THE hell are you throwing in anadrols the last 3 weeks???? man oh man, this cycle is way off.....do the following

500mg sust/week weeks 1-10
40mg dball/day weeks 1-4
50mg winny EOD weeks 5-10


NO NEED to run HCG and CLOMID for one week in the middle either....complete waste of time, save them for the end of the cycle

 

[bigmouth2006]

Here is what I am doing:

Week 1, 2 and 3: 500 mg sustanon and 50 mg ever other day of wini
Week 4, 5, and 6: 40 mg d of dbol and 400 mg w of deca (wk 4 Nolvadex tabs daily as well)
Week 7, and 8: 200 mg w of primo and 5000 iu wk of HCG plus clomid
Week 9, 10 and 11: 100 mg day of anadros, 750 mg w of testoviron plus nolvadex
Week 12 and 13: clomid

ok if you were to do winny it would be after d-bol. and three weeks of winny is pointless.
and you would what to do the d-bol in the beginning of the cycle to kick start your longer acting esters(test+deca), and for the primo 200mgs isn't going to do anything and again pointless for 2 weeks, clomid is pointless in the middle of a cycle,and last but not least a-bombs at the in of a cycle isn't a good idea.if you run the gear before you get your fat down you are going to get fatter sad but true.when you get your bf down you try something like this:

1-10 test 500mgs ew
1-10 deca 400mgs ew( optional for first cycle)
1-pct l-dex .5 eod or aifm

 

[drrman]

Bro no offense but that might just be the most ill-conceived cycle I have ever seen. And I've been doing this 20 years. Who designed that mess?
1. do not use winny to start cycle at your age
2. never use nolva with deca or anadrol
3. start with test/deca and finish with test/deca. Don't change your AS every few weeks. Adding the orals like winny at the end or starting with anadrol for a few weeks is a good way to go.
Let's start over and redo this from top to bottom.

AGREE......and the two weeks of primo.....why?

 

[bigmouth2006]

damn you guys type faster than me

 

[karachi183]

First off drop all the orals and deca in that cycle.. Those are mass gainers. Stick with the test and pct. As for diet.. Muscle is ok once a day but not three times. Find a good protein in powder form with low carbs and make your own (then down it three times daily). Cardio is fine after but best in the AM on an empty stomach... Again drop the orals if your weight is of concern and if u say ur a little heavy then there are way too many issues to deal with when using orals.. Test is enough

 

[swordfish151]

I am a 42 year old male who has been weight training, on and off, since age 16 and a former college division 1 starting lineman. I usually followed a power lifter’s workout and ate crappy but beginning in January of 1996 got very serious about my workouts, ate better and changed my workout to more of a bodybuilding routine. I went from 360 pounds down to 215 at 6.5% body fat. I went from a 52” waist to 32” waist. The past few years I’ve experienced some debilitating back pain which I tried to workout through but wasn’t real successful, tried to re-incorporate carbs into the diet, and turned 40. Needless to say, my physique has suffered. I’m pushing a 40” waist, and have fat around my butt and thighs (bad body type). My muscularity is still good but I lack definition in spite of 4 – 5 cardio sessions a week and regular workouts.

I had a blood test done which showed everything within the normal range but the T was a bit on the low side (still average for my age). After years of being “natural” I broke down and decided to try a cycle.

Now, I know that I should have brought my body fat back down before starting, but I didn’t. That being said, I am now about to start week 4 of my 13 week cycle and I have some questions / concerns, that I have not been able to answer on my own through research or forum searches.

Here is what I am doing:

Week 1, 2 and 3: 500 mg sustanon and 50 mg ever other day of wini
Week 4, 5, and 6: 40 mg d of dbol and 400 mg w of deca (wk 4 Nolvadex tabs daily as well)
Week 7, and 8: 200 mg w of primo and 5000 iu wk of HCG plus clomid
Week 9, 10 and 11: 100 mg day of anadros, 750 mg w of testoviron plus nolvadex
Week 12 and 13: clomid

Workout wise I am doing 5 workouts a week on a split routine - chest and back twice a week, shoulders and arms twice a week and legs once a week. I normally do 35 minutes of cardio after each workout but, since starting the above, have only been doing 3 cardio sessions a week.

So, here are my questions for the learned masses out there. 1. injection sites are very sore and black and blue. Injections into my thighs cause muscle pain in that thigh similar to DOMs that begin a day after injection and last for a day or two. Joints are painful and sore (feels like I used to after full pads football practice or a game). Is this normal? Am I doing something incorrectly? Additionally, what should I expect over the next few weeks since I am changing to a new anabolic? Will these conditions persist?

On a good note, my strength increases have been great and I’ve gained some size Seems as if I am leaning out a bit (although not expected until later in the cycle) although my face feels a bit bloated. My diet has been pretty good – doing Muscle Milk shakes 3 times a day and 2 real meals (keeping carbs on the lower side by avoiding anything white). I just had a 5 day road trip with my 10 year old daughter so I ate relatively poorly (sodium could be the facial bloat as well) but am back on track.

So, I welcome your thoughts and input.

All i can say is that your cycle is just one big blur...first off for your first cycle you should have kept it simple. You got way to many orals in that cycle for my liking!! winny and dbol back to back?? your sore joints are probably coming frm the winny...Im trying to understand why you cut the sust (or test) out after the 3rd week, started with the deca with no test, stopped the winni then added dbol..i have a headache..correct me if im wrong...but thats a pretty shitty first cycle...as far as your diet, do you really know how much your consuming...we cant tell you what to expect, if you dont know how many cals your consuming...what your macros look like...so little more info please

 

[CaddysNJuice]

Its like hes doing a strength/bulk/cut/bulk cycle..... If you say you have good muscle build, then go with a cutting stack. Ie short estered anabolics. I, for one, am not all that familiar with a cutting stack, as i only bulk, pretty much......one of those hard gainers. Plus im not one for uning tren and becomming more of a dick than i already am...
A Test Prop/ NPP/ tbol(or anavar) cycle would probably do you well

As for your joints. You are putting on more weight than your body is used to. So your joints feel that and absorbe it. Keeping a SMALL amopunt of deca in a cycle for joint lubrication is favored among men "more expirenced in life." I amagine its from all the water your carrying from the anabolic switching going on.

 

[fuitilium]

I appreciate all the information, thanks! The cycle was designed by someone who purportedly knew what they were doing and provided charts, etc. I will take your suggestions and see what I can come up with since I already have the products.

Problem with getting the BF down first is that my metabolism is whacked. I do everything that used to work very well and the results are minimal. Wanted to try and kick start things or shock the metabolism this way. Guess not.

 

[swordfish151]

I appreciate all the information, thanks! The cycle was designed by someone who purportedly knew what they were doing and provided charts, etc. I will take your suggestions and see what I can come up with since I already have the products.

Problem with getting the BF down first is that my metabolism is whacked. I do everything that used to work very well and the results are minimal. Wanted to try and kick start things or shock the metabolism this way. Guess not.

You just got way to many things going on and all at the wrong times...you could have really dropped some BF with test alone and a good solid diet...but what is your BF anyway? ballpark?

 

[fuitilium]

Cardio is fine after but best in the AM on an empty stomach...

I always did my cardio first thing in the AM (5 AM crew) on an empty stomach followed by my weight training since schedule didn't always allow for 2 a days. Wife has taken over my morning schedule due to her workout partners schedule and we can't leave our daughter home alone. I go a bit later in the day now so I eat first, weight train and then do cardio after the glycogens are depleted by the weight workout. I like the later weight workout because I'm so much stronger.

 

[CaddysNJuice]

If you have ever heard of clen.... i suggest that if you want to SHRED fat..... Its a stimulant about 3 times stronger than ephedra.... I only suggest taking half a 20 mcgs in the am and 20 mcgs in the PM..... You WILL loose fat. Guarenteed. Oh, but dont use it if your ticker isnt up to par.. You could find yourself on the floor with a foamy white substance comming from your mouth....

 

[swordfish151]

I always did my cardio first thing in the AM (5 AM crew) on an empty stomach followed by my weight training since schedule didn't always allow for 2 a days. Wife has taken over my morning schedule due to her workout partners schedule and we can't leave our daughter home alone. I go a bit later in the day now so I eat first, weight train and then do cardio after the glycogens are depleted by the weight workout. I like the later weight workout because I'm so much stronger.

In the am is optimal but as long as you get in some sort of cardio its good too..remember though you can drop a good amount of BF with diet alone..

 

[boxerjake]

Two many compounds for the first time out ..... How do you know whats doing what

You best off to keep it simple ... like test /deca

If you have history of back pain , d-bol may be a poor choice of orals due to the ensueing back pumps most of us get .

Post cycle i'd suggest you lose a bit of weight through diet and then take another run at it and we'll help you out .

 

[fuitilium]

You just got way to many things going on and all at the wrong times...you could have really dropped some BF with test alone and a good solid diet...but what is your BF anyway? ballpark?

BF using a cheapo electronic BF tester is 17%. I can't find my calipers.

 

[CaddysNJuice]

get that down to 10-13%

 

[fuitilium]

If you have history of back pain , d-bol may be a poor choice of orals due to the ensueing back pumps most of us get .

Post cycle i'd suggest you lose a bit of weight through diet and then take another run at it and we'll help you out .

My back pain isn't muscular it is disk and nerve related. Strong lower back pumps actually help maintain the stability in the disk for me. The nerve issue is hit or miss as I'm never quite sure what sets it off.

 

[Sassy69]

My only criticism is going to be calling yourself "old guy" at age 42. Fuck you dude - I'm 41 next month. .... j/k "Old" is what you call the day you decide its not worth it to pick up a weight anymore.

I'm not even going to touch the cycle stuff, however you might be interested to look into some GH as well. But the idea of 3 Muscle Milk / day and a whole 2 meals of "real food" -- -Yikes. If your bodyfat is already high, you really need to get your diet 1000% optmized for what you want to accomplish. I'm not sure if this thread is the right place to go off on a diet tangent or start a new thread on the Diet board.

Can you post up specifically what you eat on a regular day, e.g.

Meal 1: 8 am
1 c oatmeal
4 egg whites
5 oz chicken

Meal 2: 11 am
2 scoops Muscle Milk


etc

If you put this into a food counts program like www.fitday.com (its online, free, very easy to use and lots of people use it on the women's board & diet board) -- it lets you see what are your total calories as well as the macronutrient breakdown, i.e. grams, % protein / grams, % carbs / grams, % fat -- that way we can probably get a couple of things optmized to get that in order -- never forget that diet is 80% of your ability to meet your goals and its even harder as you get older. Just means you need to pay a little more attention & sometimes get creative trying things that work just a little bit better.

 

[mkazzbmf]

Im sure I will get flamed but....too much juice for first cycle man. Not overkill or anything but, you would get good results with a simple 250mgs a week on a first cycle.


Kaz

 

[fuitilium]

My only criticism is going to be calling yourself "old guy" at age 42. Fuck you dude - I'm 41 next month. .... j/k "Old" is what you call the day you decide its not worth it to pick up a weight anymore.

I don't really think of myself as old but I was catering to the audience here.

Can you post up specifically what you eat on a regular day, e.g.

Meal 1: 8 am
1 c oatmeal
4 egg whites
5 oz chicken

Meal 2: 11 am
2 scoops Muscle Milk

When I was at my most religious with the program I not only kept a workout log book (which I still do) but also a meal log book. A typical day would be:

6:00 AM - 2 scoops muscle milk with 8 oz skim milk
10:00 AM - post workout - 2 scoops muscle milk with 8 oz skim milk
1:00 PM - 10 oz chicken breast or can of tuna 2 cups of broccoli
4:00 PM - 2 scops muscle milk (or Isopure) with 8 oz skim milk
7:00 PM - 12 oz sirloin 4 cups romain lettuce (couple tablespoons olive oil based italian dressing)

Without punching this into an analyzer, this is probably around 2500 calories which is most likely on the low side for me (6'2" 265lbs) but is the way I have eaten for 10 years. I've cycled through dif't programs with carbs and without and modified ketogenic diets. Pretty much off the ketogenic diets as I think, for me, the long term effect has been to slow my metabolism.

I have historically gained muscle pretty easily but also put on fat pretty easily.

 

[drrman]

if you are trying to drop the fat man, you need to drop the muscle milk.....ever look at the content of that stuff?

 

[bverysmart]

I agree with pretty much everyone here. You have wayt to many compunds in your cycle. For a first cycle whether you are 25 or 45 you need to run Str8 Test (IMO). If your going to use Dbol use it in the first 4 week of cycle, this allows you to get a jump start so that your test can kick in usually around week 3 or 4. YOu can if you wnat add an oral like winny to the end, but again I think you should just stick with just test for this cycle. You have so much mixture you do not know how your bodies going to react. On top of that if it does react poorly, you do not know what from.

Bro you need to start over and start clean.

I hope all goes well bro

take care

bverysmart

 

[CaddysNJuice]

if you want to drop fat, use ONLY ISOLATE PROTEINS...... they have the least ammount of fat and "waste material"

 

[Sassy69]

These are the comments I wanted to make - the only place I see MM of value is in a bulking cycle when u need the extra. Its probably bogging down your metabolism. I'd toss that shit & eat as much clean real food as possible. I'd switch to a whey isolate + gatorade or somethign for PWO, but otherwise go w/ real food. Also if you are total cals are low then your metabolism may be running slower to deal w/ lower than needed food intake. Trust me on the "tweak the diet thing" -- I'm your age, I've already experienced 1 phase of age-related hormone changes (age 37), I've lifted since I was 16, but have been on & off when life gets in the way - so I've done easy 30 lb weight swings due to stress or competition rebound -actualy at least one such swing per yr since 2000. Very hard on the ol' body. I also build muscle very easily but struggle w/ the fat loss, esp in the estrogenic areas like ass & waist. But w/ optmized diet + cardio (training is great & I do it religiously, but diet & cardio make the difference for me) I've gotten down to 8% bf for competition naturally. So, I just really can't tell u how critical it is to look at your diet & change it if you haven't for a long time - it will be the #1 thing that keeps you from meeting your goals or not.

OK just to quantify things I put your diet in fitday.com, w/ the chicken option.

Total cals: 2722
Macros: 317 g (48%) protein / 116 g (40%) fat / 89 g (12%) carbs

I think your total cals could go up a little, but my guess is you are totally stalled out on low carbs. I'd suggest a refeed at least 1x/week or a carb cycle (3 days rotation of high, med , low carbs) and just toss the Muscle Milk and get some real complex carb sources in there like yams, brown rice, oatmeal, etc. I think a macro profile of 40/30/30 might do you good to set your body to burning more carbs again and then maybe switch a modified keto or carb cycle diet w/ carb-ups ever 3-4 days.

 

[Big_Joe]

I started my first cycle at fifty. I started with 500mg week of sustanon. After a few weeks it was going so well I upped it to 750mg a week and added tritren. I built a lot of muscle and dropped a lot of fat. I would suggest that you just do this for about eight to ten weeks. Then do a good PCT and you will be very happy with the results.

The concept of dropping your BF before using is only applicable to youngsters, about thirty five and younger. When you are older and have low test, for a male, it is almost impossible to lose BF. But don't take this as saying diet isn't important, It's the most important.

 

[Triple J]

You can use the MM but just one scoop. Mix in one scoop of ON egg or whey protein. My gut likes the egg better.

As for your cycle you want to keep it fairly simple, slow and steady. Remember all that T can convert to estrogen which is not what you want at this age. I say to start your run with GH. Add T at a low dose, say 200mg. Consider some proviron at 25-50mg/d. A small amount of anti-aromatase might still be warranted. So now at this point we have a good HRT dosage plan that should allow you to accomplish your goals.

To supercharge things a little, add some anavar and/or primo for the entire run. Switch these "safer" AAS around every couple months. Avoid the progestin based drugs like deca or drol. Or go ahead and run them if you do not care about getting your dick hard.

I know what you mean about things not working the way they used to. Plan to give it a long run. I would say 6 months, or just until you feel you need a break. Don't plan on training like you used to, even after you get on. Take it slow. You know about disc injuries. So keep the health of your joints in mind always. Don't go crazy once you get some gear in you.

PCT come off the injectables first. 3-4 weeks later stop the orals. Then start PCT. Run the GH until PCT is complete.

 

[fuitilium]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the advice. Sassy69, great advice!

 

[columbia58]

KISS....oh by the way your only old when you feel old....


still growing in dixie