Lets talk HCG and Gynocomastia

[Sub-Zero]

so since we all play gods with our hormones, i decided i wanted to learn more about endocrinology.

i have talked to many who agree that HCG during their cycle flares up their gyno and thus requires the usage of an anti estrogen (or a higher dose than would be required without HCG).

some say it directly causes aromitization of test, but i also know it has an affect on progesterone as well, in women so i began googling some progesterone+men+hcg stuff. i found this:

there is an "accumulation of 17-OHP after hCG administration"
Increased 17-OH-Progesterone levels following hCG stimulation in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia and raised FSH levels - ANAPLIOTOU - 2008 - International Journal of Andrology - Wiley Online Library

so then i also looked up some stuff about how HCG can cause aromitization, and turns out weve known this shit since 1979!!!
http://www.pnas.org/content/76/9/4460.full.pdf

so for those of you who are gyno prone, or notice to be a bit puffy and flared around HCG usage times, be sure and save your HCG use for the end of your cycle, or keep your AI dosage appropriate.

whats yals personal experience with HCG and gyno sides? Have yal done any research? Whaat did you dig up?

 

[bluetoolpaul]

Def makes my gyno flare up but also helps my sex drive. Adex helps even it all out. Funny, I used to take waaaaay too many ai's. After time and experience I realized I could control it w/ so much less.

 

[Sub-Zero]

Def makes my gyno flare up but also helps my sex drive. Adex helps even it all out. Funny, I used to take waaaaay too many ai's. After time and experience I realized I could control it w/ so much less.

what AIs and dosages did you used to use, and what do you use now?

how did lots of AI's vs what you do now affect your gains (strength and body composition)?

 

[Zyglamail]

so since we all play gods with our hormones, i decided i wanted to learn more about endocrinology.

i have talked to many who agree that HCG during their cycle flares up their gyno and thus requires the usage of an anti estrogen (or a higher dose than would be required without HCG).

some say it directly causes aromitization of test, but i also know it has an affect on progesterone as well, in women so i began googling some progesterone+men+hcg stuff. i found this:

there is an "accumulation of 17-OHP after hCG administration"
Increased 17-OH-Progesterone levels following hCG stimulation in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia and raised FSH levels - ANAPLIOTOU - 2008 - International Journal of Andrology - Wiley Online Library

so then i also looked up some stuff about how HCG can cause aromitization, and turns out weve known this shit since 1979!!!
http://www.pnas.org/content/76/9/4460.full.pdf

so for those of you who are gyno prone, or notice to be a bit puffy and flared around HCG usage times, be sure and save your HCG use for the end of your cycle, or keep your AI dosage appropriate.

whats yals personal experience with HCG and gyno sides? Have yal done any research? Whaat did you dig up?

To me this comes across as a kind of "the sky is falling post" when in reality it doesnt tell us anything we dont already know.

For starters, HCG mimics LH and BOTH cause the same thing to happen, test to be produced and aromatization of the newly produced test. This is no different than when your not on a cycle and anterior pituitary gland is pumping out LH like normal.

The problem people have in my opinion is that the HCG causes your testes to produce test and it does so even when on a cycle. This is unesterfied pure test and is IN ADDITION to the cycle you are on so of course that should be factored into things where an AI is concerned. I still think giving the testes some work over the course of a long cycle is preferred to total shutdown for months.

As far as the progesterone study, abstracts are a very poor means to collect data, they dont tell the whole story. In the case of the one you have sighted, I would like to point out this statement specifically...

These results support the view that in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia associated with severe Sertoli cell dysfunction there is parallel oversecretion of LH and compensated dysfunction of the Leydig cells, as indicated by oversecretion or accumulation of 17-OHP after hCG administration, and also by the low testosterone/LH ratio.

Notice the folks in this study had f'd up systems as indicated by oversecretion or accumulation of 17-OHP.

 

[Sub-Zero]

To me this comes across as a kind of "the sky is falling post" when in reality it doesnt tell us anything we dont already know.

For starters, HCG mimics LH and BOTH cause the same thing to happen, test to be produced and aromatization of the newly produced test. This is no different than when your not on a cycle and anterior pituitary gland is pumping out LH like normal.

The problem people have in my opinion is that the HCG causes your testes to produce test and it does so even when on a cycle. This is unesterfied pure test and is IN ADDITION to the cycle you are on so of course that should be factored into things where an AI is concerned. I still think giving the testes some work over the course of a long cycle is preferred to total shutdown for months.

As far as the progesterone study, abstracts are a very poor means to collect data, they dont tell the whole story. In the case of the one you have sighted, I would like to point out this statement specifically...



Notice the folks in this study had f'd up systems as indicated by oversecretion or accumulation of 17-OHP.

i have always gone the HCG during the cycle to speed up my recovery.

i always thought estro sides like gyno were due to an imbalanced test/estro ratio, not total estro, but if its the latter then your explanation would make alot of sense.

and nah the sky isnt falling, but since its still within reach why not try and understand it

 

[Zyglamail]

and nah the sky isnt falling, but since its still within reach why not try and understand it

Kudos to you for taking the time to do some research, its a lot more than most do. Just cautioning you to be careful how you interpret what you find.

Dr. Crisler recommends HCG use the 2 days prior to a single weekly injection because of the boost in test is causes. Weekly test C or E injections still have peaks and valleys and by taking the HCG on the 2 days prior to your weekly injection it gives a quick, short lived test boost right when levels are low and before newly injected dose of test kicks in.

If doing 2x weekly injections you may be a bit better off doing a single hcg injection the day before your test injections but even so its providing you unesterfied test over a pretty short period and some people are more prone to sides from rapidly changing test levels than others.

This is also another reason to use HCG sparingly (ie 250-350IU) per injection instead of the insanely high 5000IU and up doses people often do.

 

[bluetoolpaul]

@subzero... man, I've done every ai under the sun. Hampered gains and killed my joints. I used to use letro during cycle, nolva during cycle, would f up my sex drive too. I've had gyno surgery so I was paranoid as hell about it but I went overboard. Prob wasted 2000 worth of gear. Now I use arimidex 12.5 mg every 3 to 7 days. Keeps me straight. Idont remmeber the doses id run of the letro but it was high, and id run nolva at 20 mg a day all thru my cycle. Haha, needless to say my gains were effected , I prob got 50% of what I get out of a cycle now.

 

[twenty47]

bumping this thread to figure out why the fuck my nips can secrete clear liquid.


i am 40 days into pct. been on 50 mg of clomid. ive had puffy nips my whole life so i am wondering if i have this problem forever. should i get some dostinex? what dose for someone not on aas?

 

[Sub-Zero]

I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it's a lot and coming out by itself (i.e., enough to show through a shirt). I'm in the same boat. Whether I'm on or off if I squeeze my nips a certain way, I can get a *tiny* bit of clear liquid to form. Less than a drop.

It freaked me out initially, but I forgot about it. Just checked right now (not on anything) and I can still make it happen.

can everyone MILK THEIR TITS? in this forum?

 

[twenty47]

Give it a shot, share your experience with us.

hes the one that told me to squeeze mine haha. dat nigga can milk himself too.