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Israel with NUKES?!

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You think thats strange, South Africa had them years ago but abondoned its nuclear weapons program and had them distroyed.
 
I'm surprised US isnt pissed off at Israel the same way they were against North Korea lol
 
It's the only thing that have kept the Arabs in check. The Israelis have some of the most advanced weapons systems in the world. We send our strike aircraft (F-16, F-15s) to Israel to be combat tested, they modify them and send back the changes to the states, which we then incorporate.

Personally I'd love to see a limited, tactical strike on a few "strategic" positions!

CF
 
cluster...

it's a catch-22......at least it seems like it.......if you nuke, then you may enrage the hatred more, if you don't nuke/try peacekeeping, then, they get more cocky and try things.....

I do know this, what the US (both Democrats and Repulicans) has been doing since Reagan left, is NOT working. We have too much government and too many Politically Correct people worrying about everything. I saw a poll on worldnetdaily.com....it asked if we were more or less free than in 1776.....makes you wonder.....
 
I am not muslim but I love to hear Jews getting killed in Israel. One day the paper reads, "40 dead in suicide attack," the next day "5 killed in attack, " etc. And that just makes my day.

What a wonderful way to start your day!

And it looks like somebody brought these issues to LA. And 2 Jews are down. I guess this is the beginning of the end for them in this country, and how ironic, on Independence Day! The day the US was liberated from the Jews.
 
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MrDbol said:
I am not muslim but I love to hear Jews getting killed in Israel. One day the paper reads, "40 dead in suicide attack," the next day "5 killed in attack, " etc. And that just makes my day.

What a wonderful way to start your day!

And it looks like somebody brought these issues to LA. And 2 Jews are down. I guess this is the beginning of the end for them in this country, and how ironic, on Independence Day! The day the US was liberated from the Jews.

Have you been drinking?
 
MrDBol and MP5 sounds like they have their heads implanted firmly in their asses. If it wasn't for the damn Israelis we would have likely been hit far worse than we have from terrorist attacks. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE GET OUR COUNTERTERRORISM training from? They are one of the only country's with practical experience.

Next you'll be telling us "how to recognize a Jew" and that they control the media. Oh yeah, the great Zionist conspiracy. Oh, and Mr. MP5 - any time you wanna go through a killing house with me "covering your back" - gimme a ring. I'll ensure no training accidents happen!

CF
 
clusterfoxtrot said:
If it wasn't for the damn Israelis we would have likely been hit far worse than we have from terrorist attacks. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE GET OUR COUNTERTERRORISM training from? They are one of the only country's with practical experience.

CF


That's the funniest shit I have ever heard in my life!!!! The ONLY reason why the US is being subjected to terrorism and all of these threats IS because we are supporting Israel. And as far as counter-terrorism training, I almost fell off my chair when I heard that. It made me spill my protein shake all over the floor.

All training comes from the US of A. The Israelis have shit. Everything they have comes from the US, including CT and CI training. All the hardware they have comes from us. And this goes to show that they have no respect and appreciation for what the US is doing. That's what I love about Jews.

Soon they will be saying they invented the wheel, and the sad thing is the sheep in this country will believe it.

Europe has realized this a long time ago, and has a firm stance against the Jews. Now it's time for the US to recognize its "problem".
 
almost,

sorry I posted this now. I can't believe some of you are discriminating against Israelis (or anyone for that matter).

The middleeast thing needs to be worked out by someone, and since the U.S. has backed them for so long, do you think we're just going to walk away from it? Believe me, I wish the U.S. wasn't so involved in everything......we need to discover our own sources of oil or FIND AN ALTERNATIVE FUEL SOURCE for that matter.

This is what I wish:

The U.S. and its friends need to share information and defend our own country.

There would be no discrimination.

Thanks for your time,
POShredded
 
If we would not spoon feed Israel 600 billion of the USA's tax dollars, the other arabs countries would not be pissed at us. The jews are the reason for 9-11, maybe if our government would learn to quit helping Israel, the terror would stop. There is a reason they were kicked out of England in the 12th century.
 
Well it's fairly evident that MrDBol and MP5 are pretty much anti-Semites and wouldn't listen to reason if it hit them square in the head.

It is also quite evident that you two have probably never served in any intelligence gathering or strategic capacities in a deployment scenario, so I suspect that most of this will be over your head anyhow. Here are some miscellaneous factoids to demonstrate to the contrary. This is probably futile but here it goes:

1) The US doesn't have the capability to place HumInt assets into Arabic territories. Israel is our only ally with those capabilities. The US also has very poor Arabic analysis capabilities and MUST rely upon Israel's.

2) Israel developed its own nuclear capability, independent of the US, in conjunction originally with France, then subsequently South Africe and Norway.

3) Until 1973, Israel maintained plausible deniability regarding possession of nuclear arms until they had to notify then Secretary of State Kissinger (uh oh, another Jew) that they had moved to a full-nuclear alert during the Yom Kippur War. The entire Israeli arsenal was developed without US assistance. The entire US arsenal was developerf WITH the assistance of Jews, starting with Einstein and continuing from there.

4) After 1988, Israel stopped relying on the use of our KH-11 recon birds after launching their own and has been self-reliant since. Any further explanation here regarding the function and capabilities of satellites would be completely wasted on your (lack of) intellect.

5) NYPD, Georgia, and other police departments have sent their staff to Israel to be trained in counterterrorist tactics since 9/11.

6) Most of the US Elite forces, from Delta to DEA, have now switched all H2H combat training to Krav Maga, the offical martial art developed by the IDF. Note: The last several Ultimate Fighting Championships have been won by KM experts.

7) Check your numbers. In FY '01, the US provided $2.8B, not $600B to Israel in economic aid. $1.9B of that went to defense applications. Since 1949, the US has provided $81.98B in total economic aid. Source: US State Department

8) Of the 67 total air-to-air kills of F-16 aircraft worldwide (as of 1996), 47 have been made by the IDF - Good chances that they know a little bit about how to improve the aircraft.

Anyhow, I could go on...If you wish to continue to demonstrate your ignorance regarding this subject, I will be more than happy to continue proving the pair or you morons wrong.

Oh, MP5 - what variant do you prefer?

CF
 
And for POS peace of mind. The mostrecent information indicates that Israel's Jericho II rocket, capable of carrying a 1000 kg payload, has an approximate range of 5,300 kilometers - give or take a few yards. That keeps us pretty well safe over here, despite the fact that it would be pretty silly for Israel to attack the US in that capacity.

Having said that, I don't wan't to open any discussions about the USS Liberty. Israel f*d up on that one and so did the US. It's just too bad that both countries swept it under the rug. But, that's what happens when you stick your nose into the the middle of a combat zone - remember, "friendly fire" isn't!
 
We gave Israel $2.8 billion too much. They should be paying us. Without the USA shadowing over Israel, that country would have been crushed long ago by the arabs.
 
There's nothing funny about some dumb fuck strapping explosives to his body just to receive good karma from Alah. The only bad thing is that Sharon didn't kill that hairlipped Arafat when he had the chance. As far as Israel/US relations...not a chance that they will split...anytime soon. We are both puppets controlled by the other...in many ways.
 
Since MP5 read my post and didn't answer my question regarding which variant of an MP5 he owned (If he boasts a name like that, one would deduce that he knew what it was), I am therefore classifying him as a "Sidewalk Commando."

I also enjoyed his retraction from a $600B figure to a $2B figure - a rounding error - maybe he should be working for Worldcom.
 
MP5SF.

Hebrew, maybe if you are really living in America you should not post the Israel flag.

Explain to me why Israel is worth channeling billions of America's tax dollars to?
 
Aside from the $3 billion given to Israel each year from the foreign aid budget for economic ($1.2 billion) and military ($1.8 billion) aid, significant amounts of American tax dollars are channeled to Israel through other means. These additional expenditures are included in the budgets of the State, Defense and Commerce departments and other federal agencies, and are not included in official estimates of U.S. foreign aid.

In the State Department's budget for FY96 an additional $93.5 million in grants to Israel were allocated as follows: $80 million to resettle in Israel Jewish refugees from the former Soviet Union; $3.5 million for a regional cooperation agreement with Egypt; and $10 million to pay for Israel's own foreign aid program. This brings to $993.4 million the total of additional grants provided to Israel from the State Department's budget since FY73, when the first refugee resettlement payment was given to Israel. None of these grants are included in Economic Support Fund or Foreign Military Sales calculations of U.S. foreign aid totals.

The Defense Department also is a major supplier of money, equipment and training to Israel outside the regular foreign aid budget. In FY90, $100 million worth of hardware was added to the existing $100 million U.S. military equipment stockpile in Israel, which is available to Israeli forces in case of a military emergency. During FY95, an additional $200 million worth of equipment was added, for a total of $400 million.
 
the truth about palestine...

By the time the UN accepted a resolution on the partition of Palestine in 1947, Jews constituted 32% of the population and owned 5.6% of the land. By 1949, largely as a result of paramilitary organizations such as the Haganah, Irgun and Stern gang, Israel controlled 80% of Palestine and 770,000 non-Jews had been expelled from their country.

I could go on for days, Israel has a long dark past with the USA yet we spoon feed them.
 
Yeah, but Hitler and his croonies killed many of them, and the ones that he didn't, were scattered everywhere.
 
MP5 said:


Hebrew, maybe if you are really living in America you should not post the Israel flag.

Explain to me why Israel is worth channeling billions of America's tax dollars to?

mp5 is right, one of the problems with you US citizens who are jewish is your loyalty to your country...you prove my point well. there would be no jewish state if not for my tax dollars. thank me later!!!
 
MP5SW - Didn't spring for the Class III permit?

Anyhow, let's see if I can address your statements rationally:

1) The Israeli flag reflects the fact that I am Jewish, I support Israel as a nation-state, I have family there, I served as an advisor there, and they are one of our closest allies. I don't think that reflects anymore or less than the Italian-Americans, etc., who fly Italian flags. Besides, they didn't have a Confederate flag as the other "half" of my heritage is Southern. My ancestors have fought and died under a variety of flags and causes.

2) Our second largest recipient of economic aid is Egypt, not the friendliest of states to Israel. How would explain this one away? At least for the $ we send Israel, we get fairly consistent representation, intelligence, and reliability. PS - Don't bother to go into long stories about the USS Liberty, etc. - Israel has had its share of SNAFUs as well.

3) For Nav: Israel didn't send troops to or function in an overt operational capacity in Afghanistan for obvious Arab-Israeli-American political relation reasons. I have no clue whether they did or didn't send any support to the clean up at the WTC. I can tell you that we had a multitude of Israeli attaches here in DC working with the Fed on triage and counterattack planning.

4) Israel, unquestionably, are our eyes and ears into the MidEast and they do a lot of work that is not feasible for us to do as a country. Case in point, the Israeli attack on the Iraqi Oriraq reactor 20 years ago. At that time, it was not plausible for the US to go and destroy the reactor built for the sole purpose of creating plutonium for WMD. Israel did our dirty work by setting back the Iraqi's WMD-Nuc program and likely prevented a future nuclear attack by terrorists. This is of course, only valid, if you believe that Saddam Hussein does support terrorist operations and would have lent their capabilties to terror organizations.

5) If you watch CNN International, you will clearly notice that they have a pro-Palestinian spin to most of their broadcasts. The reason for the coverage is that it is important to the state of world affairs. I would love to see broadcasts of nothing but puppies, free-sex festivals, and Formula 1 races - but guess what, welcome to the real world.

6) Israel has had to use brutal tactics because they are dealing with a brutal enemy. Sharon is brutal and probably would lose in an international war crimes tribunal. Problem is, the rest of the world doesn't understand the mentality and what they are dealing with.

I was standing in the wreckage on Dizengoff street in '94 looking at pieces of babies and strollers blown everywhere. You go look at the shit first hand and tell me that the tactics necessary aren't warranted. Our "enemy" (the terrorist) understands one thing - kill or be killed. If the American public knew what we were having to do as we speak to accomplish our goals, we would puke. Israel is our only ally with the appetite for this type of war and will be the only country who will truly stick with us until the end, without regret, without remorse, and without failure.

CF
 
AT least

now you guys are having a great debate, as opposed to Jews should die!

My big thing is that like has been said here and elsewhere on the board, the US should get back to being a republic, NOT AN EMPIRE!!! We need to pick and choose our battles......but, oh then the corporations that make the military equipment and supplies would suffer, oil companies may suffer.....I wish we could use our brains to figure out how not to rely on oil so damn much!
 
Simple:

1) Russian oil
2) Canadian oil
3) US oil
4) Nuclear power
5) Hydrogen cells


We do not need OPEC contributions and could wean ourselves quickly from Mid-East oil if we could start drilling in Alaska and build more nuclear power plants.
 
why everyone feels it is possible to be like Europe is beyond me. Compare England to the USA and tell me how easy it is to ride a bike everywhere here. I would have to bike 15 miles one way everday to go to work, no thanks. Not to mention using trucks to haul goods from east to west coast, not a realistic approach. The usa is more rural and spread out than London.
 
If you spent the past 50 years watching Mexicans come across the border into Long BEach and bomb and shoot children, you wouldn't have too much problem watching our forces roll tanks into villiages and do what they need to do to stop the violence.

Have you ever noticed that every time Israel goes and occupies PA territory under martial laws that terrorist activity in that sector drops to nothing? Hmmmm....wonder why? Maybe the tactics work?

CF
 
Don't even get me started about Mexico. Only reason we have not crushed that country is because those people are not worth the cost of the gun powder to blow them to hell.
 
clusterfoxtrot said:
MrDBol and MP5 sounds like they have their heads implanted firmly in their asses. If it wasn't for the damn Israelis we would have likely been hit far worse than we have from terrorist attacks. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE GET OUR COUNTERTERRORISM training from? They are one of the only country's with practical experience.

You stand corrected.... if it was not for Isreal we would have NEVER been hit. Bin Laden has no problems with Christians.. or Buddists. Those Firefighters and Cops died in the name of Ariel Sharon and his satanic hit men. We got fucked in the ass by Bin Laden because of Isreals tight grip on the throats of the Palestinians.
 
dballer said:


Bin Laden has no problems with Christians

Thats a big negative son.

If you read or listened to any of his speeches you would notice that he is not very fond of christianity, claiming that christians and jews are the "heretics of the world."
 
mp5,

I am confused dude. Israelis are good people. Why wouldn't we want them as our allies instead of some nutty sucide bombers that worship some wierd funky ass towel head god manufactured by some crazed sun scorched arab that tells them to strap bombs on their ass and blow up people so they can be with 70 virgins when they die. I mean listen to that crap. I mean if you look at real for what they are doing you can tell they are just part of cult like Jim Jones or something. I mean that is all it is a cult. Why would you want to take their side?

I mean the Jews have contributed so much to the world and what the hell have the towels heads done but blow innocent people and shit up. Use some common sense.

Clusterfox thanks for the interesting info.
 
The Almighty said:


Thats a big negative son.

If you read or listened to any of his speeches you would notice that he is not very fond of christianity, claiming that christians and jews are the "heretics of the world."

Have you ever heard or read ANY of his speeches that were not chopped or altered by our fun loving government. You see.. that is how they get us to hate them. They might not be fond of Christians.. but they are not being slaughtered by Christians.
 
dballer said:


Have you ever heard or read ANY of his speeches that were not chopped or altered by our fun loving government. You see.. that is how they get us to hate them. They might not be fond of Christians.. but they are not being slaughtered by Christians.

except of course in bosnia and most of war ravaged africa...c'mon bro, you're smarter than that....
 
Obnoxious White Guy said:


except of course in bosnia and most of war ravaged africa...c'mon bro, you're smarter than that....

Are you saying that Christians killed Palestinians in Bosnia and Africa?>????
 
dballer said:
They might not be fond of Christians.. but they are not being slaughtered by Christians. [/B]

You're right because the Christians are busy getting slaughtered and arrested by the Muslims.

Btw dballer you don't think it is odd that Christians and Jews while they believe different things don't go around killing each other? But the muslims kill the Jews because of religion?

dballer are you a muslim?
 
::culing is wondering why dballer has responded to post is because he is working on one those long journalist fact sheets about what the Jews have done to the arabs. Please don't do that dude. You know that goes both ways. But the Jews don't go strapping bombs on themselves due to the cult thing now do they?
 
not palestinians, but muslims in general...globally they (muslims) really don't get along well with others....except in bosnia where the christians were seen as the aggressors...maybe we should rethink our position on that one in light of recent events...

no, i don't think i like muslims...
 
curling said:



Btw dballer you don't think it is odd that Christians and Jews while they believe different things don't go around killing each other?

are you kidding? look at the homicide rate of our Christian country.
 
No Curling.. I was in a meeting.

I am not Muslim. I could never be.. first off they do not eat Pork... I could never waddle through life not eating BBQ or bacon.

Secondly... they don't eat pussy. (see above)

I am not Pro-Muslim.... but I am not Pro-Israeli either. I think they are both evil.. I just think Israel is alot more deceptive.


Although I am not a Bible beater.. I do belive Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of my family and myself. I think Jesus is the true messiah.
 
dballer said:
No Curling.. I was in a meeting.

I am not Muslim. I could never be.. first off they do not eat Pork... I could never waddle through life not eating BBQ or bacon.

Secondly... they don't eat pussy. (see above)

I am not Pro-Muslim.... but I am not Pro-Israeli either. I think they are both evil.. I just think Israel is alot more deceptive.


Although I am not a Bible beater.. I do belive Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of my family and myself. I think Jesus is the true messiah.

You are one alright dude dballer.
 
7figureman said:
Dballer, quit it with your anti-Israeli sentiments. You're anti-American and are a prime example of ignorance.

How is not being pro Israeli anti-American? Or is he anti-American for other reasons? Please elaborate.
 
7figureman said:
Spentagn, Dballer is unwilling to accept the Bush Doctrine.

You mean like the Jews refused Hitlers doctrine.

7figurewoman. How about you swallow a whole bunch of your mommy's sleeping pills and disappear.
 
Question, who right now has the most nukes?????




Answer, Russia-----by thousands, believe it or not. Since cold war, have always had a shit load more than us. That is why America is constantly trying to get them to defuse them.



I didn't realize that canada doesn't have any, that can't be right, they would have to be crazy to not have one. True they don't need any, but it seems odd not to have any.


Whiskey
 
Whiskey said:
Question, who right now has the most nukes?????




Answer, Russia-----by thousands, believe it or not. Since cold war, have always had a shit load more than us. That is why America is constantly trying to get them to defuse them.



I didn't realize that canada doesn't have any, that can't be right, they would have to be crazy to not have one. True they don't need any, but it seems odd not to have any.


Whiskey

No offense but canadians are smart. If I had the US as a border country I wouldn't have nukes either. Because if the shit the fan we are all dead so why waste money on nukes when the US will retailiate if someone screws with Cananda.
 
canada doesnt need nukes because we are here and we wouldnt allow an enemy to be so close to us.
smeg, good point!!
 
clusterfoxtrot said:
Simple:

1) Russian oil
2) Canadian oil
3) US oil
4) Nuclear power
5) Hydrogen cells


We do not need OPEC contributions and could wean ourselves quickly from Mid-East oil if we could start drilling in Alaska and build more nuclear power plants.

yes but the middle East is basically a float because of oil(hell they are already teaching their kids to be ready to kill and hate americans--why is that? Because one day we will go to war with the whole middle East--when that happens it will be because we have a new fuel source that makes them useless---that we will sell to the world---without their oil--their done----now if we and all our allies say fuck you the S.Arabia and the rest of the oil driven countries right now--we would not be really for the amount to terror that would be inflicted on us-----Their would basically be a billion bin ladens ready to take us out----we would lose right now if we cut them out completely---but down the road, they will be a thing of the past----And they know its coming-----but its only the very rich few that run the whole middle East--and they could care less about their people.....
 
The Palestinians would not have to use crude suicide bombs to fight back against the jewish oppression if the USA would buy them some F15's with OUR tax dollars like we do with Israel. I am not promuslim either, i just can see right vs. wrong. And i bet if Canada started funneling BILLIONS of their citizens money to Israel, they would get hit by terrorists too. Israel, great allies, they attacked our ship in the 60's for no reason.
 
MP5 said:
they attacked our ship in the 60's for no reason.



No shit!!! How many bullshit stories can we come up with to cover this one up?? Wonder why we never see this in the news???
 
If people would do a little research of the facts about Israel, they would not be too happy that we are GIVING them OUR money. I work some shit job just so the government can send it to those evil people?
 
the prime reason America supports Israel is the powerful Jewish Lobby in the US. I dont want my commnets to be constured as antisemitic just the truth i have nothing against jews and as far as i'm concerned them and the palestinians are as bad as each other and both guilty of war crimes

This is a very good thread by the way, very intelligent
 
MP5 and I have been at odds on this thread, but he is correct. chances are though, he has about 3 cents of information regarding the attack on the USS Liberty. Here it is in a nutshell:

1) The USS Liberty was a US Navy Intelligence ship carrying an NSA SCIF inside the bowels of the boat;

2) On 08 Jun, 1967 the Liberty received orders to move 12 miles offshore from an Israeli offensive during the Six Day War;

3) Due to a major comm SNAFU, the Liberty wound up several miles off shore and no longer in international waters;

4) The IDF was in the process of (arguably) massacring PA forces and very likely was in the process of executing captured and retreating troops;

5) The IDF properly identifed the ship (according to subsequent reports) asa US ship;

6) The IDF torpedoed and strafed the ship during a 75 minute assault;

7) The attack killed 34 Americans and wounded countless more;

8) Both the US and Israeli governments acted in complicity to cover up the event, sweeping it under the proverbial rug.

Why would they do this?

1) The US Navy made a mistake and repositioned the boat in a conflict;

2) The SCIF aboard the Liberty was collecting information about what was likely going on in the assault that would have been very bad press;

3) In the heat of battle, signals can get crossed very easily;

4) Israel did not realize that there was an E3 AWAC monitoring as well;

5) The US violated treaties regarding eavesdropping on allies.

It was a mistake and an embarrassment for both countries. Israel settled with the US (financially) years later and the whole incident was buried. The US didn't want the world to have any insight at the time on our intelligence gathering capabilities and Israel didn't want the world to have any evidence of Sharon's brutal tactics during the assault.

"If you like my results, don't question my methods."

CF
 
clusterfoxtrot said:


It was a mistake and an embarrassment for both countries. Israel settled with the US (financially) years later and the whole incident was buried. The US didn't want the world to have any insight at the time on our intelligence gathering capabilities and Israel didn't want the world to have any evidence of Sharon's brutal tactics during the assault.

CF

They settled with us? Do you understand that if it was not for American tax payers that country would be flushed. We give them over 4 billion a year.... why? What does Israel do for us? I mean if we rate countries on what they contribute to the rest of the world, Israel would be right up there with Zaire... or Zimbabwe... or Afghanistan. They are nothing but strong arm bullies. Will they stand the test of time? With the way Sharon and Shamir treated the world? Planet earth will rid itself of that disease. Israel is a disgrase to my jewish friends.
 
For those who want the real story...

The Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967,
And the 32-Year Cover-up That Has Followed


By James E. Akins,


In 1963 three World War II Victory hull freighters were refitted as Technical Research Ships. Their function, formally, was “to conduct technical research operations in support of U.S. Navy electronic research projects which include electromagnetic propagation studies and advanced communications systems.” Jane’s Fighting Ships called these ships “mobile bases for research in communications and electromagnetic radiation…[They are] considered electronic intelligence ships.” And so they were. They were designed to intercept foreign electronic messages and they were popularly called “spy ships.”

One of these ships was rechristened the USS Liberty.

In late May 1967 tension between Egypt and Israel had become serious and the Navy Department decided that it needed a “spy ship” in the region. As the Liberty was in Abidjan at the time and could get to the Eastern Mediterranean in two weeks it was dispatched. On June 5, when Israel attacked Egypt and destroyed most of its air force, the Liberty was already in the region. Commander William McGonagle of the Liberty immediately asked Vice Admiral Martin at the Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany the Liberty and serve as its armed escort and an auxiliary communications center.

The following day, June 6, Admiral Martin replied: “LIBERTY IS A CLEARLY MARKED UNITED STATES SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, NOT A PARTICIPANT IN THE CONFLICT AND NOT A REASONABLE SUBJECT FOR ATTACK BY ANY NATION. REQUEST DENIED.” However he promised that, in the unlikely event of an inadvertent attack, jet fighters from the Sixth Fleet could be overhead in 10 minutes.

By the evening of June 7 the Liberty was 13 miles off the coast of Gaza, ergo in international waters. At about that time the Pentagon decided that the ship might be too exposed and sent a message to the Sixth Fleet headquarters, copy to the Liberty, ordering the ship to withdraw to 20 miles from the coast. The message was misdirected to the Philippines and the Liberty never got its copy. The Pentagon then decided that 20 miles was insufficient and ordered the ship to withdraw to 100 miles from the coast. That message, too, was misdirected to the Philippines and was never received by the Liberty. As the ship had not acknowledged receipt of the earlier messages a direct message was sent to the Liberty. Unfortunately, it was classified Top Secret and the ship was unable to receive it. So the Liberty proceeded on course to the waters off Gaza but remained at all times in international waters.

At about 0900 a plane approached the ship but its markings could not be identified; it broke off and then turned toward the Gaza coast. At 1000 hours two delta-winged jets flew close enough to the ship to enable officers with binoculars to count the rockets they were carrying and even to see the pilots of the planes. But no identifying marks on the planes could be seen. Still, there was no great concern as the planes, which circled the ship three times, could easily see its markings and its large American flag. At 1030 a flying boxcar circled the ship slowly, giving further assurance that the ship had been identified. It flew over the Liberty at about 200 feet and its Israeli markings were clearly visible. The boxcar repeated this at about 1100 and again at 1130.

The ship continued its patrol at very slow speed when at 1400 two Mirage aircraft were seen rapidly approaching the ship. Although they were unmarked they were assumed to be Israeli planes—the Arabs did not have Mirages—and no defensive action was taken. Not that it would have done much good, since the ship was only very lightly armed. Both attacked the ship and the damage was considerable.

Commander McGonagle immediately sent a message to the chief of naval operations: “Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft, require immediate assistance.” According to James Ennis, who was badly wounded in this first attack, a submarine which had been following the ship sent up its periscope and filmed the attack. He was told of this by one of the crew on the submarine; it was subsequently confirmed by three other persons in a position to know the truth.

The attack lasted about 5 minutes and then ended. After another few minutes three unmarked Super-Mysteres attacked with napalm and dozens of rockets. There was then a short respite and two more Mirages—also unmarked—attacked. The entire engagement lasted about 22 minutes.

Throughout the attack the ship tried to contact Sixth Fleet headquarters, but the Israeli planes knew the frequencies of the transmission and were able to block transmission except when the rockets were underway. During these few seconds the radio operator was able to make contact. The first ship to receive and acknowledge the distress signal was the carrier Saratoga, and 12 F-4 phantom jets and four tanker planes were dispatched almost immediately to defend the Liberty . The Sixth Fleet flagship, the Little Rock, which had received the messages at almost the same time, was informed and the Liberty was informed that help was on the way.

It never arrived. Shortly after the word of the attack and the 12 planes dispatched to support it reached Washington, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara personally got on the circuit and said, “Tell Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately.” That message did get through and the planes were recalled. In subsequent discussion of the affair the White House directed the Pentagon to say that the Israelis had acknowledged their “mistake,” that the attack had been called off and the Israelis would give assistance to the ship.

Nine men had been killed and about 60 wounded. But that was not to be the end.

Most of the lifeboats had been destroyed in the earlier attack but the ship managed to launch three life rafts. They were immediately attacked by Israeli motor torpedo boats which destroyed two of them—a war crime in itself—and captured the third. They also launched torpedoes, one of which hit the Liberty at the waterline, and fired their cannon into the ship in an apparent last attempt to sink it, and the carnage continued. In all, 34 Americans were killed and 171 were wounded.

When the Israelis saw they were unable to sink the ship after more than two hours of intense attack, they offered support to the survivors, who refused it. The Liberty limped into Malta, where 821 rocket and missile holes and more than 3,000 holes from armor-piercing bullets were counted.

In subsequent “explanations” Israelis said they had mistaken the ship for the Egyptian “al-Qusair,” although the profiles of the two ships had nothing in common: the Egyptian ship displaced 2,000 tons, the American one 10,000. The American ship was clearly marked and it flew a standard American flag which measured 5 by 8 feet. The flag was destroyed during the first attack but it was replaced immediately by a 9-by-15 foot “holiday flag” and it flew throughout the attack. The Israelis never attempted to explain how they had acquired the frequencies over which the ship transmitted and why they had blocked these frequencies; the Egyptian frequencies would have been quite different. Nor have the Israelis explained why the aircraft were unmarked.

While in Malta most of the surviving officers and men were interviewed in several groups by Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd, who ostentatiously took off the stars on his uniform in each case and said, “Now, tell me, man-to-man, everything that happened.” They all did. Then he equally ostentatiously put the stars back on and said, “Now I’m talking officially; you are never, repeat, never to discuss this with anyone, not even your wives. If you do you will be court-martialed and will end your lives in prison—or worse.” For years almost no one spoke out. Now almost all the survivors who can be contacted do.

Prelude and Aftermath

George Ball served as undersecretary of state under Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. That Ball saw clearly what mistakes the U.S. was making in Vietnam and that he recommended an early withdrawal is now widely known. What is less widely known is that he also believed the U.S. policy of underwriting all of Israel’s actions in the Middle East was harmful to America’s interests and its foreign policy objectives. This did not endear Ball to the Israel Lobby in Washington, and Ball firmly believed he would have been selected secretary of state by Jimmy Carter if his appointment had not been vetoed by the Israelis.

In 1992 Ball wrote his last book, The Passionate Attachment; America’s Involvement with Israel, 1947 to the Present. The title is a phrase from George Washington’s farewell address in 1796. Washington counseled “the new nation, that in shaping its international relations, it should abjure any ‘passionate attachment’ to or ‘inveterate hatred’ of any other nation. Instead it should ‘cultivate peace and harmony with all.’” Washington was clearly referring to the attachment of some of his fellow Americans to France. Ball believed the “passionate attachment” of some Americans to Israel was and is equally dangerous. Although Ball was very well known and his previous books had been widely and favorably reviewed, this book was ignored. The Washington Post and The New York Times carried “reviews” from well-known defenders of Israel who used the occasion not to review the book but to launch ad hominem attacks on Ball. The book was not reviewed elsewhere in the “elite media” and there were no interviews on the daytime talk shows.

In his book Ball, who was a top State Department official in 1967, wrote:

“The Liberty’s presence and function were known to Israel’s leaders. They presumably thought it vital that the Liberty be prevented from informing Washington of their intention to violate any cease-fire before they had completed their occupation of the Golan. Their solution was brutal and direct…Apprised of Israel’s plans from various sources, the U.S. Navy Department faced a delicate problem. Due regard for the lives of America’s naval personnel should have impelled the Navy to urge the State Department to warn off Israel in no uncertain terms; meanwhile the Navy should have alerted the Liberty to its danger and dispatched ships or planes for its protection. But none of these actions was taken in time.”

Ball describes the attack and the slaughter of American seamen and then goes on:

“The sequel was unedifying. The administration tried vigorously to downplay the whole matter. Although it silenced the crew, casualties to the sailors and damage to the ship could not possibly be concealed. Thus an elaborate charade was performed. The ship, they rejoined, had not been clearly marked but looked like an Arab ship—which was definitely untrue….In the end the Israelis tendered a reluctant and graceless apology…. The sordid affair has still not been erased from the history books; an organization of devoted survivors has kept the cause alive over the years by publishing a newsletter and holding well-advertised meetings.”

Is there any possibility that the U.S. government did not know what the Israelis were doing to the Liberty or that it thought that there was in fact a honest mistake? Senator Jacob Javits of New York said at the time, “Thank Heavens the ship was attacked by the Israelis because we know it was a mistake.” The unstated implication was that an attack by an Arab nation would have been deliberate. No, pace Senator Javits, there was no one at the top of the U.S. government who did not know the facts.

Dwight Porter, who was ambassador in Lebanon at the time of the attack on the Golan, told columnist Rowland Evans in late 1991 that the CIA station chief showed him during or immediately after the attack the transcript of intercepted Israeli messages. Israeli planes had been given the order by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) to attack the Liberty but a pilot replied that it was an American ship; the order was repeated, “Attack the ship”; the pilot still didn’t get the point and said he could see the American flag. He was then told harshly that he had his orders: “Attack it.” And, as we sadly know, he did. These facts were published in the Evans and Novak column of Nov. 6, 1991.

The columnists got further confirmation from an American-born Israeli major, Seth Mintz, who was in the war room in Tel Aviv at the time of the attack. He is quoted as saying, “Everyone felt it was an American ship and that it was the Liberty...there were comments about the markings, about the flag. Everyone in that room was convinced that it was an American ship.” Mintz told Evans and Novak that “The Israelis were guilty of an outrage.” The American suppression of the truth is surely an equal outrage. There have also been reports, but never confirmed on the record, that at least one of the attacking pilots was an American citizen.

Major Mintz was apparently a dual citizen; at least he was living in Maine at the time he was interviewed by Evans and Novak. It’s too bad that he didn’t make his statements earlier, that he hadn’t renounced his Israeli citizenship at the time and gone public immediately. But that would be asking a lot—too much, in view of the American government’s own efforts to suppress the truth.

Ball is certainly right that the Israelis wanted no interference in their plans to occupy Syria’s Golan Heights. The essentials of the Golan problem are well known; they can be described as follows:

From 1948 until 1967 the Syrians sat on the Golan Heights and shelled the defenseless and peaceful Israeli farmers below. This was done out of maliciousness or a desire to be provocative or perhaps just because the Syrians were evil. Clearly this situation had become intolerable to the Israelis and they had not only the right but the duty to change it. And they did; the occupation of the Heights—although there may not have been any specific provocation during the Israeli attacks on Egypt and Jordan—was perfectly understandable and justifiable.

These “facts” were widely “understood,” I might even say “universally” understood, in the U.S.

Brent Scowcroft, subsequently head of the National Security Council, responded archly when I suggested that the story wasn’t exactly right. “Everyone knows the facts,” he said, “I was just in Israel and I saw for myself what had happened.”

The problem was—and is—that this Israeli version of the Golan is pure fiction. Every one of the 1,000-odd clashes between Syria and Israel between 1948 and 1967 was examined by the U.N. Truce Supervisory Commission, which found that only a very few had clearly been caused by the Syrians. A few dozen were ambiguous and all the rest were caused by Israel. But, many Israelis point out, the U.N. was notoriously anti-Israel, so how could its reports be believed? Well, there were many officers of many nations and they all reported the same thing. Could they all have been lying? Still, we no longer have to rely only on U.N. documentation.

Moshe Dayan, who commanded the Israeli forces in 1967 and had given the order to occupy the Golan, gave an interview to an Israeli journalist, Rami Tal, in 1976. The interview was kept secret until April 1997—two years ago—when it was published in a leading Israeli daily newspaper, Yediot Ahronot. It has been authenticated by Israeli historians, and General Dayan’s daughter, Yael, a member of the Knesset, insisted that it be published.

In the interview, Tal interjected, “But they were sitting on the Golan Heights and…”

“Never mind that,” said Dayan, “I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let’s talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn’t possible to do anything—[it was] in the demilitarized zone—and would know in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn’t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force…And that’s how it was.”

Furthermore, Dayan thought that the land would have to be given back to Syria if there was ever to be peace in the region, and taking it would result in the loss of many Israeli soldiers.

Then why did he give the order to invade? Essentially it was because of pressure from the would-be settlers who convinced Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister, to occupy the Heights and the fertile lands beyond. When asked if that was all there was to it, Dayan replied,

“I can tell you with absolute confidence that [they] were not thinking about [security] they were thinking about the Heights’ land….I saw them; I spoke with them. They didn’t even try to hide their greed for that land.”

During the peace talks between Syria and Israel under Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin there was almost full agreement. Israel would withdraw from all of the Heights; there would be demilitarized zones on both sides of the border—more in Syria than in Israel. The main point—perhaps the only significant unresolved issue—was where the final border would be: the international pre-1947 border (the Israeli position) or the 1948 truce line (the Syrian position). A total of less than 15 square miles was at issue.

This encouraging development ended with the murder of Rabin and the subsequent rise of Binyamin Netanyahu as Israeli prime minister. Netanyahu agreed to talks with Syria but they had to begin all over again. The Syrians said they wanted the talks resumed but they would have to proceed from positions already agreed. No talks have taken place, showing that sometimes terrorism does pay off; Rabin’s murderer justified his action because of Rabin’s “treason.” And Netanyahu revived the old discredited line that the Golan Heights were necessary to protect Israel’s security.

But back to George Ball’s comments on the Liberty. He concludes:

“Yet the ultimate lesson of the Liberty attack had far more effect on policy in Israel than in America. Israel’s leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If America’s leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything.”

This is hard to gainsay.

In fact, the Israelis tried to press their advantage almost immediately.

During the 1967 war Israel occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula and among the great prizes of its victory were the Egyptian oil fields which they proceeded to exploit to capacity until the Sinai was returned some 20 years later. But the main Egyptian oil fields were off-shore in the Gulf of Suez. The Israelis maintained that the new Israel-Egyptian border was the median line in the Gulf and the oil fields were to the east of the line, therefore under Israeli control.

General Yitzhak Rabin came to Washington very shortly after the war to press the claim. He said that Israel had occupied the drilling platforms during the war (which might have changed the legality of the matter) but, in fact, the general was lying and we knew it.

That did not deter General Rabin. He hadn’t come to negotiate; he had come to dictate and he proceeded to tell Secretary of State Rusk what “the United States had to do.” He even gave a schedule: this must be done today, this tomorrow and this by the end of the week.

Dean Rusk was a mild Georgian, a gentleman who never lost his temper, never raised his voice. He was also completely bald, and as Rabin ranted Rusk’s neck turned red, then his lower face, and the red kept rising like a thermometer. When he was completely red he said, quite coolly:

“General. We have all heard the Soviet propaganda repeated by President Nasser and others, that Israel is an American colony imposed on the Middle East to enable the U.S. to dominate it. We all know that is nonsense. But I would like to remind you that the United States is not a colony of Israel.”

Sometimes I wonder. But Rabin did not get what he wanted—at least not at this point—a minor and a rare defeat.

An even more flagrant example of Israeli certainty that there is nothing it could do against the United States and not get away with it was the case of Jonathan Pollard, the spy who did the most damage to America in our entire history, according to Caspar Weinberger, who was secretary of defense at the time of Pollard’s actions. Pollard was a low-ranking official of the Navy Department with a very high security clearance. He was given names and numbers of documents by one or more other Israeli agents in the Defense Department. He then withdrew these documents from the files and took them to an Israeli safe-house where they were copied. He then returned the documents to the files the next working day. Literally thousands of documents were taken, most of which had little if anything to do with Israel.

Pollard seems to have considered himself primarily an Israeli, although as far as I know he had never taken Israeli nationality. The case was and is most disturbing for several reasons: 1) the damage was so great because Israel sold or traded the information to hostile powers, making it possible for them to destroy all American intelligence networks throughout the Soviet bloc. Many U.S. informants were caught and executed; 2) Israel has never returned the documents Pollard stole in spite of promising to do so; and 3) Pollard has never identified those who tasked him with acquiring specific documents. That Pollard has never shown any remorse is natural; he believes he served his “true homeland” well.

Israel initially claimed this was a “rogue operation” and that the Israeli government knew nothing about it. Not one member of the American intelligence community believed this, but the U.S. government decided not to make an issue of it. This Israeli charade has subsequently been abandoned and the last Israeli prime minister used all of his power to get Pollard released on the grounds that he “has suffered enough already.”

Netanyahu failed largely because he had bragged that the price President Bill Clinton agreed to pay for Israel’s signing the Wye agreement was the release of Pollard. I am not sure that Clinton actually made such a promise, but when the word leaked that Pollard might soon be freed, George Tenet, head of the CIA, let it be known that he would resign if this were done. Clinton then said he had agreed only to “examine the question again.”

As a matter of interest, any Americans who contribute to the Fund to Free Pollard may deduct such contributions from their U.S. income taxes.

Israel and its Lobby here constantly make the point that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and must be supported. It is indeed a democracy but only in the same sense that apartheid South Africa was a democracy, for some but not all of its citizens.

But the main point Israel’s supporters make is that “Israel is our only friend in the Middle East.” In view of the Liberty and Jonathan Pollard matters, one wonders how we can distinguish our “friends” from our “enemies.”

The international legality of Israel was established when the United Nations voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish state with about 53 percent of the land and an Arab state with about 47 percent. The Arabs at the time were about two-thirds of the population, and they understandably rejected the partition plan. When the truce was finally reached in 1948 Israel controlled 78 percent and the 22 percent left to the Arabs was annexed to the Kingdom of Jordan.

From then on Israel has shown an extraordinary ability to defy the U.N. From 1947 to 1967 it refused to comply with 32 resolutions. Between 1967 and 1974 there were another 17. The resolutions called for the internationalization of Jerusalem, for an end to settlements in the territories occupied in 1967, for the return of refugees and for an end to the occupation of southern Lebanon.

All were quite important. And all were ignored. Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol said after the 1967 war that “even if the U.N. votes by 121 to one, we will not withdraw from the territories we have occupied.” Golda Meir added, “If a resolution is not to our liking, so what? After all it’s not a tank firing at you.”

Arabs and other Muslims and many others comment on the asymmetry of our Middle East policy, our double standard. The U.S. vetoes any U.N. resolution including or even implying punitive action against Israel and it tolerates Israeli defiance even of those resolutuions with which the U.S. concurs.

Iraq defies the Security Council resolution to withdraw from Kuwait and its infrastructure is destroyed. It defies another SC resolution on inspection of suspected military sites and sanctions are imposed for eight years. Some countries, like some of George Orwell’s animals, are more equal than others.

Crucial Questions

Finally, let’s face the crucial questions we’d all like answered about the Liberty.

Who knew about the attack on the Liberty and when did they know it? The attack was reported by the ship immediately and the word was certainly on the president’s desk within 15 minutes—probably much less. So he knew. So did Walt Rostow and McGeorge Bundy in the White House. So did Robert McNamara, the secretary of defense. So did a number of senior military men.

Admiral ThomasMoorer, who was not immediately involved, knows men who were and he has spoken strongly about the scandal of the Israeli action and the greater scandal of non-American response. Planes were dispatched from the mid-Mediterranean to the Liberty almost immediately after the attack. Why were they ordered to stop and turn around while the ship was under ferocious attack, and who issued the order?

If the planes had continued they almost certainly could have saved the 25 who were killed and the 110 who were wounded in the second and third Israeli attacks. And why has there never been a full congressional investigation of this whole affair, one of the most shameful in American history?

The short answer is simple: all those who know the facts or could find them out are afraid to speak about the matter or to order the investigation. This includes both the Congress and the White House. And so little is known by the American people that there has never been a strong demand from the country at large for answers and for punishment or at least exposure of those who are responsible.

In Washington, when anyone refers to “The Lobby” there is no doubt which one is meant: it is AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Some maintain the AARP, the senior citizen lobby, is even more powerful, but they can’t make their case. And forget about the NRA, the powerful Gun Lobby. It is nothing comparable.

After Watergate, Congress passed campaign reforms including the provision that a political action committee (PAC) could contribute only $5,000 to a candidate in each election. Fine. A good start. Then, quite suddenly, about 120 independent PACs were formed around the country whose sole raison d’etre was support of Israel. But their names showed no connection to the Middle East, e.g. “Connecticut Good Government PAC.” (Richard Curtiss, executive editor of this magazine, wrote a book on these “Stealth PACS.”) Does AIPAC coordinate the activities of these PACs? What a shocking question! That would be illegal!

What AIPAC does is supply these PACs with information on voting records and statements of candidates about the Middle East, and which candidates, or their pro-Israel opponents, need funding. If the individual PAC then feels a candidate is sufficiently pro-Israel it supports him; if he is seen to be anti-Israel, the support goes to his opponent.

With a single PAC there isn’t much of a problem; you can’t buy a congressman for $5,000—well, not a good one. But with 100 PACs each giving $5,000, that’s $500,000 and is quite another story.

I’m in a rather small minority in believing that the power and the invincibility of AIPAC are more myth than reality. But I must admit that there isn’t much difference. If people and members of Congress believe the myth, then the myth has become reality.

About 20 years ago Sen. J. William Fulbright asked me to have lunch with him and Sen. Hugh Scott, the Senate minority leader. We talked about the Middle East and at the end of the lunch Fulbright asked his colleague what he had concluded.

“No doubt about it, Ambassador Akins is right,” Senator Scott said. “But if you quote me publicly I’ll say you’re a goddam liar.”

You get the same reaction today when you talk with most congresspeople. “Sure, you’ve got a point; you’re probably right. But what can I do? Look at what happened to Senator Fulbright, Senator [Charles] Percy and Congressman [Paul] Findley.” All three had been targeted by AIPAC for defeat. And defeated they all were.

But each case is flawed; none is a clear AIPAC victory. Fulbright himself told me that he was out of touch with Arkansas; he was interested primarily in foreign policy and few in his home state shared this passion. “And Dale Bumpers (his primary election opponent) was young, attractive, popular and had been an excellent governor. I would have lost the election even if the Middle East had not existed.”

The case of Percy is different. He was a popular senator from Illinois in 1982 and was chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. And he favored the sale of Boeing AWAC surveillance planes to Saudi Arabia.

And why not? It was a fantastic deal for the U.S. The Saudis paid 10 times as much for the planes as the shah of Iran had paid; they would be manned, at least initially, by Americans and the information they recovered would be processed in Kansas City. But Israel opposed the sale of anything which might give any Arab country parity with Israel, and its lobby in Washington went all out to block the sale. The sale went through, but Israel then came to the United States with a demand for even more military assistance, and we gave it immediately.

As for Percy, he would be destroyed. A millionaire real estate developer from Los Angeles (that’s in California, not Illinois) put hundreds of thousands of dollars into the campaign to defeat him.

Percy was advised by many to stand up to the attacks, to say he would take no action which would harm Israel but if Israeli and American interests came into conflict the American ones would take precedence. He was running for the Senate, after all, not for the Israeli Knesset.

Percy did not take the advice; in fact he asked rather pitiably, “Why are they doing this? I’m the best friend of Israel in the Senate.” AIPAC decided to finish him off and others who might have supported his actions decided he was a wimp.

Paul Findley’s case is different, too. He was a Republican congressman from down-state Illinois. After the 1980 census Illinois lost a seat and Findley’s district was redrawn, it lost a traditionally Republican area and gained a large number of Democratic voters. It’s not clear how much his Middle East stand had to do with the manner in which his state’s reapportionment was carried out. But from the time a Republican congressman was given an overwhelmingly Democratic constituency, the work of dozens of volunteers AIPAC sent from all parts of the country to work for his opponent was greatly enhanced.

So was the role of AIPAC crucial? Perhaps, but I advise congressmen and others to look at the case of the late Sen. John Chafee of Rhode Island. AIPAC singled him out for defeat in 1988; he did not back down or even acknowledge the AIPAC campaign. He won with a bigger majority than he had six years earlier, and he won again in 1994. Nor did he change his voting patterns prior to his death in October of this year.

What exactly is AIPAC? Sometimes it is called the Jewish Lobby. This is wrong. It was formed to advance the interests of Israel. Many of its supporters are Jews but some of its most fanatical supporters are Christian fundamentalists who believe that at the end of time, just before the second coming of Christ, the Jews will go back to their homeland. Any attempt to oppose this or, indeed, to try to block anything Israel wants to do is an attempt to frustrate the will of God. Of course, these people are not particularly philo-Semitic. They believe that 144,000 of these Jews (yes; that’s 12 x 12,000 of the tribes of Israel) will be converted to Christianity and will be saved. The rest of the Jews will be consigned to hell along with me and probably at least some of those reading these lines.

A few years ago a prominent Zionist was asked about the propriety of accepting support from Christian fundamentalists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Didn’t he know what they believed about Jews? “Oh yes, of course, we know,” the Jewish Zionist replied. “And if Jesus returns we’ll re-examine our options. In the meantime we’ll take all the help they give.”

It is extremely important to note that the Jewish community is far from monolithic in its support of Israel or its lobby in Washington. All polls show that the majority of American Jews know how important peace in the Middle East is for the United States and they strongly favor a real peace between Israel and the Palestinians and other Arabs. By real peace is meant something the Arabs can accept as honorable. And there is no doubt whatsoever that the great majority of American Jews place the interests of America before the interests of Israel.

AIPAC’s influence does not come from its control of Jewish votes but from its access to extraordinary amounts of cash. It seems that a majority of super-rich Jews are strong supporters of the extreme right-wing in Israel. A Jewish friend of mine explained that these vicarious Zionists believe they can gain the spiritual rewards of aliyah—emigration to Israel—by supporting Jewish settlers on Arab lands on the West Bank. A bingo parlor operator living in Florida is financing the construction of Jewish settlements in occupied Arab East Jerusalem. But construction may be stopped with the election of Barak.

The day after the American presidential election in 1992 I attended a meeting of Americans for Peace Now. It’s largely Jewish but it includes a significant Christian contingent. Peter Edelman, then a close friend of President and Mrs. Clinton, had just come back from a trip through the Middle East. Edelman was exultant about the trip and about the election of his friend. “We represent American Jews,” he said, “AIPAC doesn’t. And we will very quickly see the United States turn its attention to the Middle East. At last we can hope to see real peace in the Middle East.”

It didn’t quite work out that way, alas. In December 1992 a group of right-wing Jews saw Clinton and told him that there were a lot of Jews in his entourage but they weren’t “the right kind” of Jews. “Peace Now did not give you the millions you needed for your election, We did. And we have to be represented in your administration.”

They were. And they dominate the administration’s foreign policy. Peter Edelman and his wife, Marion Wright Edelman, who had subsequent differences with the administration, apparently no longer have even social contact with the Clintons.

Once again efforts are being made to reopen the shameful case of the assault on the Liberty, to try to raise popular consciousness enough to demand a congressional investigation of the whole matter while there is still some chance that those responsible for the action and the cover-up can be held accountable.

It’s late, many of them are dead. The tactic which Israel and its supporters in Congress will take will be to try to ignore anything than comes out, any statements that are made, any pleas for justice. It’s been remarkably successful since 1967.

Now they add, “Don’t talk to us about that. It was regrettable, of course, but it’s ancient history now.” A major American tragedy has been distorted and there has been a major cover-up. All the guilty parties have to do is to hold on just a little longer. In a few years those who remember and who demand justice will all be dead.

We can take some small, cold comfort in the certainty that historians will describe the events completely and accurately. They will know whether it was President Johnson himself or one of his assistants who gave the shameful order to the war planes to abort their rescue efforts, which almost certainly would have saved 28 of the American sailors who were killed and 110 of these who were wounded aboard the Liberty.

The historians will know why the Israelis took the action. Was it because they wanted the ship to be sunk before it could monitor the Israeli advance into the Golan Heights? Or was it because the Israelis had ordered us to stay out of the eastern Mediterranean and the Liberty had disobeyed this order—knowingly or not—and therefore had to be destroyed?

Historians will even find out how many American citizens inside Israel knew of or participated in this action against America, and if any of the pilots who attacked the American ship were carrying American passports.

Yes, the truth will be known and widely accepted someday and that will be good. How much better it would be if Congress would launch a determined effort to expose the truth now, if it would call to account those in Israel and in the United States who were involved in spreading the lies about the tragedy. The heroes who demand justice have a right to see it done in their lifetimes. And is it too much to ask that those who participated in the attack and in its cover-up be exposed—if not punished—while they are still alive?
 
Some I agree with....

some I don't. I like this:

"what bothers me is that America is giving OTHER COUNTRIES BILLIONS of dollars

while MILLIONS of hard-working Americans are sitting at home unemployed with wives and kids to feed.

-= nav =-"

maybe not the maybe we should've elected Gore part....

though, I do not understand why Bush won't really listen to Collin Powell who so many Americans and most of the rest of the world respect.......HE should be president, not Bush.......

I train a British guy here in Tampa......he just got back from a vacation in England and on July 4th a very popular British paper (our main ally) on the front page, had an article on "the world's biggest murderer....Bush".........they're starting to think he's a bumbling idiot........thought we had no right to tell Palestine who their leader should or should not be.......

I agree, very nice discussion, I'm glad it's gotten away from "kill em all" type rhetoric.

-POS-
 
SmegmaSoldier said:


what war crimes is israel guilty of? every move they make is under a microscope.

CAN YOU READ BOY???

they killed a ship full of OUR people. See above at the long post I just made. Read it.. then you will begin to see the begining of what they have done.
 
dballer said:


CAN YOU READ BOY???

they killed a ship full of OUR people. See above at the long post I just made. Read it.. then you will begin to see the begining of what they have done.

Dballer this point bothers me too. But let's look at it rationally in light of the facts at that time. Israel was in HUGE WAR and we were butting our noses in something that wasn't our business. And Israel trying to become a nation took it as a hostile move on our part and acted. Sure they may have actited hastily but mistakes are made in war. Are they not?

Since it has been over 42 years ago, I think it is time to let that water under the bridge. I mean how many times have we mistakenly killed people in wars or conflicts? They(Israel) made restitution and since that time have became a great ally of ours. I mean when are you going to let bygones be byegones. I mean are you still mad at England too for what they did 200 years ago? I am not but I am still pissed about what the towel heads did 10 months ago on Sept 11? How about you?
 
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curling said:


Dballer this point bothers me too. But let's look at it rationally in light of the facts at that time. Israel was in HUGE WAR and we were butting our noses in something that wasn't our business. And Israel trying to become a nation took it as a hostile move on our part and acted. Sure they may have actited hastily but mistakes our made in war.

Since it has been over 42 years ago, I think it is time to let that water under the bridge. I mean how many times have we mistakenly killed people? They(Israel) made restitution and since that time have became a great allie of ours. I mean when our you going to let bygones be byegones. I mean our you still mad at England too for what they did 200 years ago. I am not but I am still pissed about what the towel heads did 10 months ago on Sept 11? How about you?

Curling... so after 42 years we are supposed to let somthing go? What about the Holocaust? Yes.. I know we are talking about a larger number of people.. but to the mother of one of those boys on that ship... what makes the value of life diffrent? I do believe Germany made restitution as well.. but are they not still being sued? Did you know Curling that this disaster was the only Maritime "accident" that was never investigated by congress???

So are you truly saying that time heals scars? Are you truly saying after 42 years we can but massive disasters behind us? In 42 years will you forgive Bin Laden? After 42 years I will not forgive him.. I will also not forgive Israel. If WE do not stand together as a country.. we will fail. Like Palestine.. and Rhodesia.
 
dballer said:


Curling... so after 42 years we are supposed to let somthing go? What about the Holocaust? Yes.. I know we are talking about a larger number of people.. but to the mother of one of those boys on that ship... what makes the value of life diffrent? I do believe Germany made restitution as well.. but are they not still being sued? Did you know Curling that this disaster was the only Maritime "accident" that was never investigated by congress???

So are you truly saying that time heals scars? Are you truly saying after 42 years we can but massive disasters behind us? In 42 years will you forgive Bin Laden? After 42 years I will not forgive him.. I will also not forgive Israel. If WE do not stand together as a country.. we will fail. Like Palestine.. and Rhodesia.


Dballer,

You aren't comparing the halocaust to the liberty incident are you? I mean talk about oranges and apples. I mean the Jews weren't trying to wipe us out of existence like Germans were trying to do to the Jews. I mean come on. 27 men sailors killed in a border squirmish during a major war compared to million of men, women and CHILDREN dballer marched in to gas chambers. You have got to be freak'n kidding right? I mean I don't see how the Jews could ever forgive Germany for that. I couldn't unless it was with God's help to do so.
 
curling said:



Dballer,

You aren't comparing the halocaust to the liberty incident are you? I mean talk about oranges and apples. I mean the Jews weren't trying to wipe us out of existence like Germans were trying to do to the Jews. I mean come on. 27 men sailors killed in a border squirmish during a major war compared to million of men, women and CHILDREN dballer marched in to gas chambers. You have got to be freak'n kidding right? I mean I don't see how the Jews could ever forgive Germany for that. I couldn't unless it was with God's help to do so.

But if they were not Jewish would it be ok?(like Stalin did to the Ukrainians) I see you cannot awnser my question. It is typical for the ones backing Israel to dodge the question.

One more time....

Innocent people were killed... it does not matter where. You are saying that after time.. we should sweep it under the rug? Also.. why was this matter never brought up with congress?

This ship was not the target of a stray missile either. It was under attack for 72 minutes.
 
dballer said:


But if they were not Jewish would it be ok?(like Stalin did to the Ukrainians) I see you cannot awnser my question. It is typical for the ones backing Israel to dodge the question.


Dude, I am ignorant on the Stalin and Ukrainians battle. So I can't answer your question at all on that.

One more time....
Innocent people were killed... it does not matter where. You are saying that after time.. we should sweep it under the rug? Also.. why was this matter never brought up with congress?

This ship was not the target of a stray missile either. It was under attack for 72 minutes.

Yes innocent people were killed(the actual sailors). But were WE the U.S. totally innocent? I don't think so. We were spying on our allies which broke an agreement and we were not in international waters remember because of a communication error. So to the Jews we looked like we were spying on them and you can kill spys in a war situation can you not?
 
it will be a great day when my tax dollars no longer support israel...does anyone know if there are political movements that support this?
 
They killed our boys... point blank.

I dislike the country. I do not support them.

The boat was in International Waters too... go check out the site dedicated to the disaster.
 
OK...I am back from the melee at the office and ready to throw in my 2 cents again....

DBaller: Unless you can confirm you have been in combat or in a combat coordination scenario, you will never understand truly what goes on.

Here are some additional talking points:

1) We (the US) killed more civilians at a wedding 2 weeks ago than were involved in the USS Liberty;

2) When one joins the service, there is an understanding that you COULD be killed in the line of duty, no matter what your role is;

3) The USS Liberty was a friggin' NSA spy ship operated under the Office of Naval Intelligence operating at the height of the cold war. This happened only 5 years after the Cuban Missle Crisis - these guys could have been "accidentally" torpedoed or mined off the coast of Russia or Cuba or Korea. They were targets no matter what;

4) We gave Israel $2.8B in 2001 and Egypt $2.2B in 2001. We get measurable (military) returns for our investment with Israel:

-Intelligence gathering (HumInt, SigInt, and Elint)
-Military base of operations
-Technology advancements (mostly in satellite and security)

5) If you've ever been to the MidEast, you'd realize most of it is a toilet with one exception, Israel. Before significant economic aid, the Israelis (Jews and non-Jews alike) converted much of the land into arable, food-producing, water-bearing territory. They promoted a parliamentary democracy; have a 97% literacy rate, a life expectancy of 78 years, and are otherwise on parity in all other elements in the west.

Egypt, on the other hand, has only 2% arable land, a life expectancy of 63 years, a 51% literacy rate, and a relatively poor technical infrastructure, on parity with most 3rd world nations. They have harbored terrorists, supported other terror/nation states, and used their oil as a bargaining chip.

IMO the Liberty was not a mistake, but a tactical decision. It happens - shoot, don't shoot. They f*d up, we f*d up - that's why both countries agreed to bury it. Israel represents the only thing remotely close to a stable ally in the mid-east.

When the US couldn't go destroy the Osiraq reactor in Iraq in 1981, subsequently preventing Iraq from developing nuclear weapons (and likely supplying them to terrorists) who did they call? Israel. What other country on the planet would have had the BALLS to go do this for the US and likely avert what could have been deaths in the 5-6 digit area?

It's very easy for some of you to sit there and harp on giving money to Israel, or worse - the Jews. It's easy to take that position when you do not have any clue what it takes to gather intelligence and support military operations in that environment. It's easy to make blanket statements and blame someone else for our problems.

Israel has repeatedly been attacked by multiple countries and defended itself with honor. They have stood the test of time.

We would probably think and feel a lot differently if we had China, North Korea, and Afghanistan bordering the US. Well, Israel is pretty much surrounded by sympathizers at best to enemies on all sides.

Israel probably could be brought up on war crimes, but then again so could the US. And guess what? Both countries would likely lose. War isn't pretty.

The US has been emasculated by bleeding heart, left-wing, tree-hugging liberals. The US has been paralyzed by the hordes who don't have the appetite to do what needs to be done.

If Israel has done one thing: They at least provided a safe, warm location where we could PROPERLY interrogate those suspected of involvement in 9/11.
 
Funny foxtrot.. I have spoke out against Israel here before. The funny thing is... some of the jewish people act as if I was speaking of their mother. Yet these same people call themselves Americans? WTF??? I could see sticking up for Israel or worse Ariel Sharon.... if you were from Israel. But I have been attacked by American jews.. for saying I dislike Israel.
You can argue with anything you want in this country... unless it is about Israel. That is when the argument stops.. and you are a racist.
 
dballer

i am sure you have noticed foxtrots location and the flag he displays...that right there is a major problem...dont think for a second that a jewish american's loyalty is to the US...
 
not jewish...

but pretty lame how jealous and pathetic guys like mp5 are...

youre a screwup and have a shitty job bc you suck...not bc jews do this or that...

i respect people that strive for what they want...not little bitches...
that are basically complete losers and are just resentful and angry...

just face it...some ppl are losers...losers by definition take no responsibility for their lives, and just blame others...
 
I would normally not be so crass, but given DBaller and CW response towards my comments I will oblige:

First of all, I don't see an American flag on your ID - so, WTF, are you talking about. Second, I served my country not once, but twice, in both combat and intelligence operations.

I currently advise and consult in the area of communications technology, with expertise in encryption, eavesdropping, and combat control systems.

You can kiss my ass, because for a "red-blooded" American, you are the last SOBs on the planet I would want covering my 6 or being my point man on a patrol.

I fly the Israeli flag as a show of support and solidarity for the country, as a Jew, as someone who lost family in the Holocaust, as the parent of Jewish children, as a relative of Israelis, and as business associate with Israeli organizations.

And what is Jewish-American? Is that like Catholic-American or Muslim American? I can go convert to any religion I want to, if so desired. If they gave me a choice, I'd fly both flags.

I also lost 14 friends in the world trade center. How about you? I watched the Pentagon burn from my office.

F* you if you think my allegiance is misplaced. F* you if you want to send "negative karma" for expressing my opinons, based solely on facts - check the thread, I was the 1st person to substantiate MP5 USS Liberty story.

Maybe if you guys got out of whatever hole you live in once in a while, you'd open your eyes (and minds) up a bit.

CF
 
You bring up good points against the disease they call Israel .. and you come back with the fucking holocaust. LAME. What the hell does the holocaust have to do with those terrorist bastards sinking an American ship?? If you can stick up for a country that has sunk some of our men... well you would never need me to cover your ass... cause I would be on the other end of the gun.

Jewish Americans are not Israelis..... and when you say you served your country... what one are you talking about? Not mine... not the US. You traitor.
 
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SmegmaSoldier said:

israel has not committed war crimes


Jenin

bulldozing of Palestinian farmland

Expelled Palestinian farmers

Troops shoot at children coming home from school

The Attack on the U.S.S. Liberty

Israel Transferring Laser Technology to China

Israel Violates Rules on Missile Sales

"President George Prescott Bush admitted in a media interview in 1991 that he had been virtually blackmailed to grant a $10 billion dollar loan guaranty to the State of Israel, compliments of the American taxpayers. He described his contact as an agent of "AIPAC... a very a very strong Jewish lobby", ... Mr. Bush later approved the loan without objection from Congress."


Israel has been flouting an EU trade agreement at the expense of Palestinian finances for the past six years.


U.S. Aid to Israel Now Exceeds $90 Billion


ISRAEL is working on a biological weapon




By the way dickhead... you should sign your name so I do not have to waste time figuring out who sent it to me. I support Croatia.. but I do not live there.
 
In Croatia the people are fighting against a communist backed army. Our government is backing the terrorist ANC.

I would have the GA state flag if the liberal bed wetters did not change it.
 
Anti-semite? hahaha, more like anti-terrorist. The first step to getting rid of terror is to take the silver spoon out of Israels mouth that was paid for on the backs of hard working americans.

Now that you mention it, tell why i shouldn't dislike the jews.
 
MP5, it's a little hard to maintain that you are not Anti-Semitic, or anti-anything else, when you have the Aryan Nation, Order, or whatever Neo-Nazi group logo in your profile.

IMO, that is about as un-American as it gets: Fly the "flag" of an organization that believes in the (Nazi/Facist) principles that we fought against in WWII - and lost 413,000 AMERICANS.

It is also curious to note that none of the "Pro-Americans" have been able to respond in any fashion about being able to serve the United States military or DoD in any productive capacity.

In addition, no one seems to mind the fact that the #2 recipient of US economic aid was Egypt. It would also be just as easy to apply any of the so-called "war crimes" to the United States and about 50 other friendly countries.

Based on the Dukes of Hazzard pictures and muscle cars, its pretty easy to figure out that DBaller isn't exactly Ivy League fabric. I have nothing against either, especially since myself and half of my family, are from the deep south and I have an appreciation of such. But I would wager good money that DBaller isn't exactly driving a Benz and living in a 5000 sq. ft. house. Like all of us he (maybe) works and busts his ass and feels like he isn't getting anywhere. It's easy to identify with the "underdog" in that scenario.

Stop spending your leisure time at Stone Mountain and get out and see the rest of the world.
 
clusterfoxtrot said:

Based on the Dukes of Hazzard pictures and muscle cars, its pretty easy to figure out that DBaller isn't exactly Ivy League fabric. I have nothing against either, especially since myself and half of my family, are from the deep south and I have an appreciation of such. But I would wager good money that DBaller isn't exactly driving a Benz and living in a 5000 sq. ft. house. Like all of us he (maybe) works and busts his ass and feels like he isn't getting anywhere. It's easy to identify with the "underdog" in that scenario.

Stop spending your leisure time at Stone Mountain and get out and see the rest of the world.

Well Mr. Ariel Sharon....

I live on a 380 acre horse farm in a 5 bedroom log cabin. I do not own a benz.. but I have a brand new truck, 2 drag race cars, 6 various types of motorcycles and a handful of other toys.

I am willing to bet I have more in my retirement plan than you do.

I am also 25% shareholder in a multi-million dollar consulting firm.


Stereotype.

lick my ass.
 
SmegmaSoldier said:



nobody is asking you to like the jews. nobody cares who you like its just that your anti-semitism will make you always be against israel and jews no matter who is write or wrong.


When you dislike Israel.. that does not mean you dislike jews.
 
SmegmaSoldier said:


i wish that was true but i have often seen the words israel and jews used interchangeably in these arguments. also when people complain about us giving money to israel but dont complain about us giving money to egypt i have to wonder why.


we are not commanded to like egypt. If you walk down the street and tell someone.. "I really dislike Egypt" or "Egypt is a dirty little country that harbors terrorists" most likley these statments will be brushed off. But if you do the same thing with Israel.. "Hey, I really don't like Israel" or "Israel is the home of terror" you are shot down and called a "anti-semite" "nazi" "racist"... which to me is weak as hell.

Here is somthing else I do not understand.... if you hate jews, you are an anti-semite.. but if you hate towelheads.. you are a hero.
towelheads are semetic.

so...Ariel Sharon is a anti-semite.
 
Can someone tell me what Ariel Sharon did in Sabra and Shatila towns in Lebannon????


give up?


he butchered 2000 palastiniens kids and women only.....


with knives.


he is scum.
 
DB - If you really were a "25% shareholder in a multi-million dollar consulting firm," then you would probably know that almost every consulting firm under the sun (with the exception of Accenture and a few others) are either and LLC or an LLP. In either case, "shares" are not issued - therefore there are no "shareholders" - only Partners (or another euphemism).

Having drag cars and log cabins have nothing to do with social class. You may be able to take the boy out of the trailer park, but you can't take the trailer park out ofthe boy.

And how many civilians were massacred in Vietnam and Korea. It's war - it happens - get over it.
 
clusterfoxtrot said:

And how many civilians were massacred in Vietnam and Korea. It's war - it happens - get over it.

does this apply to Germany and Poland in 1939?
 
clusterfoxtrot said:
DB - If you really were a "25% shareholder in a multi-million dollar consulting firm," then you would probably know that almost every consulting firm under the sun (with the exception of Accenture and a few others) are either and LLC or an LLP. In either case, "shares" are not issued - therefore there are no "shareholders" - only Partners (or another euphemism).

Having drag cars and log cabins have nothing to do with social class. You may be able to take the boy out of the trailer park, but you can't take the trailer park out ofthe boy.


A shareholder is a partner.

I could have a benz.. or a 3000sq ft flat in NY. But I choose to live away from everyone else. You have no idea where I come from. So do not be so quick to make assumptions.

I am assuming you own a bank or a newspaper?
 
ahhhh, the sweet smell of jealousy!!!! i love this stuff!!! it makes my day. I can read these clowns post anti-semetic comments all day. I wish they would continue forever. These guys can't deal with the succes the jews have. It bothers them so bad that they are forced to spend hours worrying about it. They dont understand why they are such miserable unsuccesful losers and their jewish counterparts make so much money.

THey think "duh, i am smart why arent i rich?" there must be a conspiracy. It must be because the US government helps israel. Yeah, thats the ticket, they arent smart, they are just being given everything. And i am not a loser because i am a genetic defect, rather its because the US government gives israel aid (forget the billions of aid going to russia, egypt and many other countries).

See i have learned that these guys are just losers. There is nothing you can say to these guys to make them realize the truth. Fanatic muslims hate america for many reasons. Not just that the US gives aid to israel. They just hate the influence they have on their culture. They are psychos.

So please mrdbol and dballer and mp5 continue with your jealous rants. It only makes me feel better about myself. You show so much attention to jews. we must be pretty damn special. I know i couldnt care less about who you are or what religion you are or what color your skin is. You want to know why??? because i am happy and successful. WHy should i care about you?

You want the truth? Jews own everything! we own the banks (so dont expect to get that next loan you will need)> we run the newspapers and TV. We run all media and are in the process of brainwashing all of the world to be our slaves. I was hoping that we wouldnt be figured out. BUt we didnt foresee the brilliance of MP5, dballer and mrdbol. I hope they dont ruin our plans to rule the world.
 
dballer said:


does this apply to Germany and Poland in 1939?

Again,

Dballer how can you put compare the Halacaust to what happened in Vietnam or Korea. Nobody was shooting the innocent rice eaters in the heads as fast as they could making the German soldiers that did have emotional breakdowns from the trauma of doing it. Or marching the Vietneese in gas chambers by the millions. I mean come on dude. I don't understand why you take the muslim side over the Jews side, It makes no sense remember 9/11 I mean you saw that happened compared to something(the liberty) that happened when you were still in diapers.
 
If we want to have thread on corporate architecture, we should start a new one. And no, a Partner is not a Shareholder, they are two entirely different things, but of course, you know this already.

There is also a substantial difference between orchestrated, sustained, systemic genocide and civilian casualties during an incursion. I don't know where you are getting your "facts" from, but you might want to be so quick to believe all that you read. Any purported "murders" committed by the Israelis have happened during operations where they were either attacked or were/are defending themselves from terrorist attacks.

There is obviously a fundemental difference of opinions here which will never be resolved.

The only thing I ask of those who represent opposing views is to withhold your judgement until you have experienced the other side. I sincerely doubt that any of you espousing your beliefs have ever been to the mid-east. In addition to having been there and seen things first hand, I have also had the pleasure of coming from a long line of biggots, including family members who were in the Klan. I have been on both sides of the fence and prefer to judge every person on their individual merits.

But, as I and my family, have fought and died for - I support the right to free speech, no matter what it is.
 
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