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Is it ok to be on liver protectants while NOT taking oral steroids? I read somewhere that taking liver protectants when not needed ( not taking orals ) can hinder gains.
Is this OK to do?
- Thread starter Smokescreen
- Start date
I read on the Anabolics 2004 book that it says that Silymarin has anti-inflammatory properties ( inhibiting prostaglandin biosynthesis ). Which through recent studies is a trait that interferes with the protein sysnthesis response to resistance exercise.
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Carth said:
Hello again, Carth - milk thistle also can lower blood glucose and insulin response. This paper on simarylin for alcoholics with cirrhosis of the liver shows how good the stuff is:
Immunomodulatory and hepatoprotective effects of in vivo treatment with free radical scavengers.
Lang I, Nekam K, Deak G, Muzes G, Gonzales-Cabello R, Gergely P, Csomos G, Feher J.
Second Department of Medicine, Semmelweis University Medical School, Budapest, Hungary.
The hepatoprotective and immunomodulatory effects of silymarin and amino-imidazol-carboxamid-phosphate were studied in 60 patients with compensated alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver in a one month double blind clinical trial. Treatment with both drugs normalized the elevated levels of aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase and serum bilirubin, markedly reduced the high level of gamma-glutamyl transferase, increased lectin-induced lymphoblasttransformation, decreased the percentage of CD8+ cells and suppressed lymphocytotoxicity. None of these changes occurred in the placebo-treated group. Thus the hepato-protective effects of silymarin and amino-imidazol-carboxamid-phosphate are accompanied by changes in parameters of cellular immunoreactivity of the treated patients.
This paper, not only extols the virtues of milk thistle as a liver protectant but shows that it is an effective antioxidant, also reducing insulin resistance in diabetics.
Long-term (12 months) treatment with an anti-oxidant drug (silymarin) is effective on hyperinsulinemia, exogenous insulin need and malondialdehyde levels in cirrhotic diabetic patients.
Velussi M, Cernigoi AM, De Monte A, Dapas F, Caffau C, Zilli M.
Anti-Diabetes Centre, Monfalcone Hospital, Gorizia, Italy.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: Several studies have demonstrated that diabetic patients with cirrhosis require insulin treatment because of insulin resistance. As chronic alcoholic liver damage is partly due to the lipoperoxidation of hepatic cell membranes, anti-oxidizing agents may be useful in treating or preventing damage due to free radicals. The aim of this study was to ascertain whether long-term treatment with silymarin is effective in reducing lipoperoxidation and insulin resistance in diabetic patients with cirrhosis. METHODS: A 12-month open, controlled study was conducted in two well-matched groups of insulin-treated diabetics with alcoholic cirrhosis. One group (n=30) received 600 mg silymarin per day plus standard therapy, while the control group (n=30) received standard therapy alone. The efficacy parameters, measured regularly during the study, included fasting blood glucose levels, mean daily blood glucose levels, daily glucosuria levels, glycosylated hemoglobin (HbA1c) and malondialdehyde levels. RESULTS: There was a significant decrease (p<0.01) in fasting blood glucose levels, mean daily blood glucose levels, daily glucosuria and HbA1c levels already after 4 months of treatment in the silymarin group. In addition, there was a significant decrease (p<0.01) in fasting insulin levels and mean exogenous insulin requirements in the treated group, while the untreated group showed a significant increase (p<0.05) in fasting insulin levels and a stabilized insulin need. These findings are consistent with the significant decrease (p<0.01) in basal and glucagon-stimulated C-peptide levels in the treated group and the significant increase in both parameters in the control group. Another interesting finding was the significant decrease (p<0.01) in malondialdehyde/levels observed in the treated group. CONCLUSIONS: These results show that treatment with silymarin may reduce the lipoperoxidation of cell membranes and insulin resistance, significantly decreasing endogenous insulin overproduction and the need for exogenous insulin administration.
You told me that you work out at 5 in the morning - madman! , well, the positive effect on fasting blood glucose levels will mean that you will have more energy for your workouts - vanadium will do this too, as it effects fasting blood glucose levels (but is not effective when taken with meals for the purpose of assisting insulin response) - ah but vanadium is toxic right? - well there is a newer version you can get called Vanadium bis(maltolato)oxovanadium (BMOV). It has been shown to have a NO POTENTIAL FOR TOXICITY at therapeutic doses when administered for a prolonged period. This was due to increased absorption and a higher rate of clearance and excretion than other forms of vanadium. The increased bioavailability of BMOV thus resultes in a lesser need for the element to achieve glucose stability and a reduction and/or elimination of toxicity potential.
I suggest that considering you are a heavy user, that milk thistle and possibly a combination of sesamine/schisandra (can get this in tablets, shown to reduce liver toxicity) should be essential supplements for you, all year round.
Where did you hear that milk thistle could be detrimental to muscle growth. I see no reason why it should be, infact quite the reverse, since it has positive effects on insulin sensitivity and fasting blood glucose levels. - for this reason, it would be good for cutting too.
Carth said:
The study Bill is referring to is from 1999. It's not new. It's also not conclusive and no follow up was done. I don't promote Silymarin's use as anyone who has been here long can tell you. But saying that this Italian study showing some "inhibition of iNOS and COX-2 expression by flavonoids" proves that it inhibits gains is quite a stretch.
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Ulter said:
You didn't post the study. I would be very interested to read it, thanks.
Inhibition of inducible nitric oxide synthase and cyclooxygenase-2 expression by flavonoids in macrophage J774A.1
Giuseppina Mattace Raso, Rosaria Meli, Giulia Di Carlo, Maria Pacilio and Raffaele Di Carlo,
Department of Experimental Pharmacology, University of Naples "Federico II", Naples, Italy
Giuseppina Mattace Raso, Rosaria Meli, Giulia Di Carlo, Maria Pacilio and Raffaele Di Carlo,
Department of Experimental Pharmacology, University of Naples "Federico II", Naples, Italy
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Ulter said:
I'll look it up on medline tomorrow, cheers.
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Ulter said:
I looked up the study, interesting read.
Something else also occured to me:
One of the key manners in which silymarin enhances detoxification reaction is preventing the depletion of glutathione - a study showed a 35% reduction in gluthione depletion.
Glutathione is a tripeptide, made from acetylated cysteine, glutamine and glycine
Glutathione in the liver is critically linked to the liver's ability to detoxify. The higher the glutathione content, the greater the liver's capacity to detoxify harmful chemicals.
Apart from being the most poweful antioxidant, keeping the cells protected against oxidisation, gluthione (a large amount being found in whey protein), will improve the funtion of your immune system. Gluthione levels are often used as an indicator of health in clinical scenarios.
HERE'S THE REALLY INTERESTING BIT:
Hard training lowers levels of gluthione, with increased cellular levels linked with improved recovery and reduced fatigue - hence muscle gain.
The beneficial efects of gluthione (GSH) can be observed in this extract from an article witten by Svenson
Svensson, Michael B
Endogenous antioxidants in human skeletal muscle and adaption in energy metabolism: With reference to exercise-training, exercise-related factors and nutrition
"Moreover, the results demonstrate that the metabolism of GSH in skeletal muscle readily adapts in response to current loads on the muscle. The observed depression of GSH in response to the exhaustive exercise was correlated to diverse parameters, such as muscle fibre type. performance and AMP deaminase activity in combination with phosphocreatine (PCr) catabolism. A complimentary in vitro study of the GSH biochemistry of primary human skeletal myoblast revealed that the sulphur amino acid precursor specificity and the capability to export GSH, in response to exposure of various hormones/hormone-mimics, were altered by differentiation of myoblast (single nucleated) into myotube-like cells (multinucleated). An unusual adaptive gain is clearly demonstrated in respect to the ability of myotube-like cells to utilise extracellular methionine to support the intra-cellular GSH synthesis, concurrently with a loss in the ability to use of extra-cellular GSH itself. Furthermore, the capability to export GSH in vitro, in response to exposure of stress hormones/hormone-mimic such as glucagon, vasopressin, and phenylephrine, was increased following differentiation. These results strongly suggest that skeletal muscle cells may provide a hormonally-regulated. extra-hepatic source of systemic GSH in the human body."
Here is an interesting abstact:
Differentiation-specific alterations to glutathione synthesis in and hormonally stimulated release from human skeletal muscle cells.
Cotgreave IA, Goldschmidt L, Tonkonogi M, Svensson M.
Division of Biochemical Toxicology, Institute of Environmental Medicine, S-17177 Stockholm, Sweden. Ian.Cotgreave@I mm.Ki.Se
Muscle atrophy and cachexia are associated with many human diseases. These catabolic states are often associated with the loss of glutathione (GSH), which is thought to contribute to the induction of oxidative stress within the muscle. Glutathione synthesis and secretary characteristics were studied in human skeletal muscle myoblasts and myotube-like cells derived from the myoblasts by growth factor restriction. Differentiation was associated with a shift in the sulfur amino acid precursor specificity for synthesis of GSH from cystine to cysteine, as well as loss in ability to use extracellular glutathione and activation of methionine use. The thiol drug N-acetylcysteine was also shown to be an effective precursor irrespective of the state of differentiation. Additionally, myoblasts and myotube cultures were shown to secrete GSH continually, but only the differentiated cells responded to stress hormones such as glucagon, vasopressin, and phenylephrine, by increased secretion of the tripeptide. The data suggest that the skeletal muscle cells may provide an important hormonally regulated extra-hepatic source of systemic GSH and also shed light on the mechanisms of accelerated turnover of GSH operating during strenuous muscle activity and trauma. The data may also provide biochemical rationales for the nutritional and/or pharmacological manipulation of GSH with sulfur amino acid precursors during the treatment of muscle-specific oxidative stress and atrophy
Whats even more intereting, is that pure gluthione as a supplement is not effective, as muscle an liver transportation mechanisms are ineffective.
Hence, if by using simarylin, Gluthione levels were indirectly boosted (of which gluthione supplementation itself cannot achieve) - this would be a highly beneficial muscle building effect!
